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Umpteen
United Kingdom1570 Posts
On February 03 2014 02:10 Traeon wrote: I did read the paper. It says DC was excluded (page 30). The PDF of the report I have only has 29 pages. Not sure to what you're referring. Can you provide a link? | ||
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Traeon
Austria366 Posts
On February 03 2014 05:34 Umpteen wrote: The PDF of the report I have only has 29 pages. Not sure to what you're referring. Can you provide a link? Sure. http://arxiv.org/abs/1305.3913 There have been three versions, you probably got an older one. | ||
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Ropid
Germany3557 Posts
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Ropid
Germany3557 Posts
The dude is definitely suspicious. There was this PetrolDragon stuff with his plant not really doing anything worthwhile at all, then what he did with those machines he sold to the DoD or DoE or whatever it was, which did not do much (or nothing). So if LENR (cold fusion) is actually happening, and he is for real, it might just be him seeing some tiny effect somewhere and then promising too much (a tiny effect like what's mentioned about CFL lamps producing more light than should actually happen as predicted through normal physics). He might not be getting his machine to work so that it's worthwhile compared to oil/gas/coal/solar/wind, so everything's kept secret. The way I understood the patent system, it should make more sense to share everything about the device and effect being seen so that other people can improve it. If it works better it can be sold better. There's the possibility to profit through license deals and suing people. | ||
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Umpteen
United Kingdom1570 Posts
![[image loading]](http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/files/2013/05/Power-Magic-1-600x515.jpeg) In the 'dummy run' of the device the heating elements were not switched on and off, they were run continuously at around 800-900 watts and produced a mean temperature very similar to that of the loaded device. Let's call it 1KW for the sake of simplicity here. Suppose for a moment the switching system above was used to charge a battery or capacitor inside the control box during the 'off' periods. During the 'on' periods this charge could be used to supplement the power sent to the coils, effectively delivering 3KW whilst only reading 1KW on the input line. Then the device 'switches off'. No more power is sent to the coils (which is why, factoring in the inertia of the ecat's mass, power output begins to drop the moment the device switches off) Instead, the current is used to recharge the battery ready for the next cycle. Now there's no anomalous heat. This would also explain why, in the dummy run, the control box wasn't switching - if it HAD, the device would have behaved as it did in the live test. This hypothesis also explains the need for a 'ramping up' phase of the device (or to having it running when the investigators arrive). If you just turned it on full blast, you would get a very suspicious graph: the first 'on' cycle would have a low peak, and then all the rest (after the first 'off' cycle where the batteries were charged) would have equally high peaks. By slowly ramping up the on/off power (for no discernible reason), that one-off anomaly is concealed. Finally, it explains Rossi's 'trade secret waveform' that meant the investigators could not be allowed to connect measuring equipment to the inputs of the e-cat during the 'live' run. | ||
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Traeon
Austria366 Posts
On February 03 2014 20:56 Umpteen wrote: The updated reports don't actually close any loopholes. For example, there's a very simple wiring and switching arrangement which would allow the control box to be plugged into a simple wall socket and draw power continuously whilst only periodically registering current on the sensors: The testers inspected the wires, and redid all the wiring themselves (the paper isn't explicit about this, but it was confirmed later). Page 30 The three-phase power cables were checked and connected directly to the electrical outlet. It was established and verified that no other cable was present and that all connections were normal. The ground cable was disconnected before measurements began. | ||
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Umpteen
United Kingdom1570 Posts
Ok, well: First of all, that statement from the revised paper is not equivalent to "We disassembled the plugs and cables to ensure they were wired normally internally, and reconnected them ourselves." If I unplugged my TV, looked at the plug, and re-inserted it, I'd have done what they said they did. Secondly, as I keep saying, it doesn't matter whether you can figure out how the black cloth helps the magician do the impossible. It's enough to appreciate that the magician clearly knows, because he won't do the trick without it. Where's the black cloth here? Observe: The simplest, best, most convincing way to demonstrate that the contents of the 'live charge' create additional heat is to run the device empty, then insert the charge changing nothing else and ideally not even turning off the device and see the heat output rise. There is no reason whatsoever not to do this. So what was actually done? In the dummy run the control box settings were changed. The location of the probes was changed. It's impossible to attribute the difference in output to the addition of the 'secret sauce' because there are so many other variables. Also, the investigators were forbidden from connecting their probes directly to the inputs of the e-cat during the live run, on the grounds that this would disclose a 'trade secret' waveform. Not only does this magic waveform for heating metal have no scientific basis, but Rossi has never needed it before in any of his previous demonstrations. Suddenly, with the earth cable disconnected in his new device, there's something ELSE you're not allowed to test. Black cloth descends. As an aside, the paper also describes a 'self sustaining mode'. No such mode is ever attained. When the external power is turned off, energy output starts to fall. The period in which surface temperature continues to rise after power is turned off is NOT indicative of self-sustain. Take a mug, fill it with boiling water, and perform the same measurements. Clearly the point you stop adding boiling water is the point you 'turn off the power' and yet the surface temperature of the mug will continue to rise for some time afterwards, before falling back. This phenomenon is purely a delay in heat propagation. | ||
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Traeon
Austria366 Posts
First of all, that statement from the revised paper is not equivalent to "We disassembled the plugs and cables to ensure they were wired normally internally, and reconnected them ourselves." There's an interview with Prof. Levi (in Italian only) where he says that they disconnected all wires and redid them themselves. http://audio.radio24.ilsole24ore.com/radio24_audio/2013/130628-smart-city.mp3 | ||
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Traeon
Austria366 Posts
The simplest, best, most convincing way to demonstrate that the contents of the 'live charge' create additional heat is to run the device empty, then insert the charge changing nothing else and ideally not even turning off the device and see the heat output rise. There is no reason whatsoever not to do this. If you look how the high temp e-cat is constructed, it wouldn't work. The ends of the cylinder are sealed with black putty. You can see some pics of the earlier models here. In the later models the ends are closed fully I believe. http://www.scribd.com/doc/105322688/Penon4-1 Also, if you read the paper on the dummy test, it says on page 18 Resistor coil power consumption was measured by placing the instrument in single phase directly on the coil input cables, and was found to be, on average, about 810 W. This is why the control box was not cycling. The purpose of this dummy run was to calibrate the instruments by the way. | ||
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Umpteen
United Kingdom1570 Posts
On February 04 2014 05:05 Traeon wrote: If you look how the high temp e-cat is constructed, it wouldn't work. The ends of the cylinder are sealed with black putty. You can see some pics of the earlier models here. In the later models the ends are closed fully I believe. I don't particularly care - and nor should you. Make a version you can open and close. It was clearly possible to REMOVE the charge - just do that and then turn it back on at the wall without touching anything else. The fact that a meaningful test might be a bit tricky doesn't change the fact that it's the only test worth doing. As for the dummy run being to calibrate the equipment - fine. But that still doesn't make it a valid control for the live test. The only meaningful control test is one where everything is the same but for the presence of the charge. I assume from your silence you concede the other points concerning the suspicious introduction of a new 'trade secret waveform' Rossi never needed in any of his other demonstrations, the lack of any science to support such an idea etc...? | ||
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Doctorbeat
Netherlands13241 Posts
Not letting third parties see the mechanics of his design makes this incredibly fishy and not trustworthy. | ||
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Ropid
Germany3557 Posts
This thread! There's a new paper out, download is here: http://www.sifferkoll.se/sifferkoll/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/LuganoReportSubmit.pdf It's not yet on arXiv.org as there's some sort of hold-up about that. Rumor has it that there's a request to make some cuts as the paper is too long, but the authors don't want to do that. Anyway... it seems it's actually real. I don't want to link to any blogs and news sites that have an article about this report because I generally don't know those sites and don't know what to trust, but there's stuff out there if you search around. | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9699 Posts
Again. | ||
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Serejai
6007 Posts
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Superouman
France2195 Posts
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Nacl(Draq)
United States302 Posts
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Crushinator
Netherlands2138 Posts
On October 10 2014 03:50 Serejai wrote: Lol this thread again. It's almost as ridiculous as the North Korea thread. I'm pretty sure North Korea is real. | ||
TheFish7
United States2824 Posts
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
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Ropid
Germany3557 Posts
On October 10 2014 07:01 TheFish7 wrote: Better sell all your oil stocks guys, the glorious energy revolution is here And then move that money into ESPORTS please. | ||
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