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Banning halal/kosher butchering - Page 7

Forum Index > General Forum
Post a Reply
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KimJongChill
Profile Joined January 2011
United States6429 Posts
June 28 2011 15:47 GMT
#121
I think the answer is obvious, but religion's so problematic--when it really shouldn't be--that I doubt anything will change.
MMA: U realise MMA: Most of my army EgIdra: fuck off MMA: Killed my orbital MMA: LOL MMA: just saying MMA: u werent loss
LesPhoques
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada782 Posts
June 28 2011 15:48 GMT
#122
Cutting throat is least painful way of killing an animal. Stunning it is worse and it doesn't guarantee that animal will not feel pain.
koreasilver
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
9109 Posts
June 28 2011 15:53 GMT
#123
On June 29 2011 00:22 Thorakh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 29 2011 00:18 reneg wrote:
On June 29 2011 00:09 Thorakh wrote:
On June 29 2011 00:06 caelym wrote:
On June 28 2011 23:48 Thorakh wrote:
On June 28 2011 23:46 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
On June 28 2011 23:08 caelym wrote:
Thousand year old cultural practices are way more important than "animal welfare." Butchers have been slaughtering animals for even longer without a stun gun. They know what to do, so no reason for the state to interfere with their practices.

edit: people often go nuts when matters involve religion, but this is a case of cultural practice imo.

Tradition is the most pointless excuse for not changing something that matters, that I have ever heard.
Hmmm, my family has a thousand year old tradition of killing people who are called 'caelym', surely my tradition is more important than your life!

wtf how did tradition (and personal attacks for that matter) get into this argument? What I'm saying is that you'd think butchers would know how to slaughter animals after thousands of years that the practice has been taking place. Why should they change something that they do well and effectively because it offends some people? Who are you to force your beliefs on other people's culture?
Who are you to painfully slaughter animals because you believe in a man in the sky?

Also, it was not a personal attack, it was just to show how ridiculous your argument was.

Yes, I believe in a scale of superiority with humans at the top, next chimps, gorillas, etc. However, the 'no torture' law should include every living animal, even insects. Disgusting to see children burn ants just for fun or whatever, fuck, what sick fuck would do that, jesus.


Who are you to say beyond the shadow of a doubt that the other method is immediately more cruel?

It's done in a quick and apparently painless fashion.

There's no reason to belittle people because they believe in a religion. You choose not to. That's fine, just like they choose to.

Anyway, I'm going to step out of the debate now, I feel like no one is going to be convinced of their other sides, and I am glad that you have voiced your opinion.

I personally hope this law does not pass.
I am not against religious slaughters. I am against religious slaughters that make the animal suffer with the only reason being an invisible man in the sky.

If, what some people in this thread have suggested, is true and halal/koshjer slaughter is not inhumane, I have no problems with that.

Perhaps it would have been prudent for you to actually research the topic before mouthing off baseless speculation and spewing insults in every direction.
Aberu
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States968 Posts
June 28 2011 15:55 GMT
#124
On June 29 2011 00:40 Aelip wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 29 2011 00:32 Thorakh wrote:
On June 29 2011 00:27 Aelip wrote:
On June 29 2011 00:25 Thorakh wrote:
On June 29 2011 00:20 Aelip wrote:
It's just animals man, let the dude butcher them however they want. We're on top of the food chain, we can do whatever we want.
Tell me that again the day aliens visit us.


Will do, i may not find it fair or nice or pleasant, but it's the truth. If we want to do it, we can and should do it. Cause i tell you the animals would do the same if they could, why should we be the only race to show mercy? just because we can? that seems pointless, the animal will be dead anyway so it won't feel or remember anything mere seconds after it's happened.
Because we have the ability to do so. I watched a documentary on pet chimps today, in which a parallel was drawn between chimps and humans, as in that we are the only two species on earth that seem to derive pleasure from violence. However, chimps cannot control their anger/emotions and we humans can.

That's what sets us apart from every other species, the ability to control ourselves and the ability to reason.

pain = -1
slaughter = -1
no pain = +1
slaughter + pain = -1-1 = -2
slaughter + no pain= -1+1 = 0

Clearly one is better (although still not optimal for the being to be slaughtered).

Torturing something just for the sake of torturing (or being indifferent about it), is not a trait that we should be encouraging if we ever want peace in the world.


Slaughter = -1, why? It's good isn't it, it grants us FOOD, food we need to survive.

And painful slaughter has nothing to do with anger, it's makes them feel like they're doing something right, something for the greater good, and while you may disagree, why is your opinion better than theirs? Just because it prevents some animals of potentially feeling pain. As it's been said, you believe it to be more painful, they believe the opposite, that our way it more painful, why is your opinion the right one? As long as it's all based on beliefs the discussion is frankly pointless. 'till someone proves that one way hurts more than the other, it's irrelevant, and no wikipedia is not proof.





Relative morality as an argument is paper thin. Using cultural differences as an excuse for immoral behavior is not a valid argument. Maybe if butchering these animals had some demonstrable benefit to the people or was a preventative measure to prevent necessary livestock/farmland from being damaged. But they are just doing it without a valid reason. Because the bible says so, is not a valid reason to do something morally speaking.
srsly
Tippecanoe
Profile Joined May 2011
United States342 Posts
June 28 2011 15:55 GMT
#125
On June 28 2011 23:09 legaton wrote:
Vegans surfing on european islamophobia to forbid all of us to eat meat what we want because the "meat industry" makes animals suffer.

First they came for the Halal meat,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a muslim.

Then they came for the Kosher meat,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a jew.

Then they came for my meat
and there was no one left to speak out for my meat.



You butchered that quote!





xD
Klive5ive
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
United Kingdom6056 Posts
June 28 2011 15:55 GMT
#126
The poll should say "which is worth less", not "which is worth more".
And anyway it's irrelevant, you can't go round telling the whole world what to do. I don't respect their traditions but banning it is stupid too. Why piss off a whole portion of society for no good reason?
This reminds me of the BNP going round protesting about this. It has nothing to do with animal rights and everything to do with xenophobia.
Don't hate the player - Hate the game
nukeazerg
Profile Joined June 2011
United States168 Posts
June 28 2011 15:55 GMT
#127
The real problem is with the people who want to institute their beliefs about protecting the animals on the world through the force of the government gun. This mob rule of the majority is being seen as they always know what is best. We really need people to stop inserting themselves in others lives through the government. Let people govern themselves unless they are physically hurting you.
Ferrose
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States11378 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-28 15:58:31
June 28 2011 15:57 GMT
#128
I don't really see how killing animals in a "humane" way is really animal welfare since you are still killing the animals, but whatever.

Why does the slaughter of animals need to be humane? Why should animals be given humane treatment? Animals are lower than humans. They deserve to be treated like animals, not humans.

Edit: I don't see why the Dutch government feels the need to impose its will on the butchers. Slaughtering the animals in this fashion is a harmless practice (to human beings, that is), so I don't know why there needs to be laws against it.
@113candlemagic Office lady by day, lonely woman at night. | Official lolicon of thread 94273
whiteguycash
Profile Joined April 2010
United States476 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-28 16:01:15
June 28 2011 15:58 GMT
#129
Is it just me, or does the fact that they are legislating a way to be humane to animals yet they are STILL KILLING IT seem slightly, if not blantanty or abhorently hypocritical. The ends are the same, and the means of cutting the throat are not crual and unusual compared to actual spiteful abuse of an anumal, such as death by suffocation, removal of limbs, skinning while alive, etc.

It is silly to cushion the fact that you are killing an animal with the excuse "we did it in the most humane way possible." If you are going to go for the "most humane way possible," then stop going halfway, and just don't kill it. If you are going to reap the benifits of the harvested cattle, then don't bitch about the "how to do it," when your own demands based off mass consumption demand that the death be executed in the most efficient way possible.

edit:
On June 29 2011 00:57 Ferrose wrote:
I don't really see how killing animals in a "humane" way is really animal welfare since you are still killing the animals, but whatever.

Why does the slaughter of animals need to be humane? Why should animals be given humane treatment? Animals are lower than humans. They deserve to be treated like animals, not humans.

Edit: I don't see why the Dutch government feels the need to impose its will on the butchers. Slaughtering the animals in this fashion is a harmless practice (to human beings, that is), so I don't know why there needs to be laws against it.


I guess its not just me.
Zihua
Profile Joined January 2011
Netherlands177 Posts
June 28 2011 15:58 GMT
#130
Even considering religious tradition on this matter is against the idea of separation of church and state. Of course, in The Netherlands people don't really care about such idealist things. I'm very pleasantly surprised this might actually happen.
Euronyme
Profile Joined August 2010
Sweden3804 Posts
June 28 2011 16:01 GMT
#131
On June 29 2011 00:22 Thorakh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 29 2011 00:18 reneg wrote:
On June 29 2011 00:09 Thorakh wrote:
On June 29 2011 00:06 caelym wrote:
On June 28 2011 23:48 Thorakh wrote:
On June 28 2011 23:46 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
On June 28 2011 23:08 caelym wrote:
Thousand year old cultural practices are way more important than "animal welfare." Butchers have been slaughtering animals for even longer without a stun gun. They know what to do, so no reason for the state to interfere with their practices.

edit: people often go nuts when matters involve religion, but this is a case of cultural practice imo.

Tradition is the most pointless excuse for not changing something that matters, that I have ever heard.
Hmmm, my family has a thousand year old tradition of killing people who are called 'caelym', surely my tradition is more important than your life!

wtf how did tradition (and personal attacks for that matter) get into this argument? What I'm saying is that you'd think butchers would know how to slaughter animals after thousands of years that the practice has been taking place. Why should they change something that they do well and effectively because it offends some people? Who are you to force your beliefs on other people's culture?
Who are you to painfully slaughter animals because you believe in a man in the sky?

Also, it was not a personal attack, it was just to show how ridiculous your argument was.

Yes, I believe in a scale of superiority with humans at the top, next chimps, gorillas, etc. However, the 'no torture' law should include every living animal, even insects. Disgusting to see children burn ants just for fun or whatever, fuck, what sick fuck would do that, jesus.


Who are you to say beyond the shadow of a doubt that the other method is immediately more cruel?

It's done in a quick and apparently painless fashion.

There's no reason to belittle people because they believe in a religion. You choose not to. That's fine, just like they choose to.

Anyway, I'm going to step out of the debate now, I feel like no one is going to be convinced of their other sides, and I am glad that you have voiced your opinion.

I personally hope this law does not pass.
I am not against religious slaughters. I am against religious slaughters that make the animal suffer with the only reason being an invisible man in the sky.

If, what some people in this thread have suggested, is true and halal/koshjer slaughter is not inhumane, I have no problems with that.


Please atleast try to read the thread next time. Just a little. Please.
There are tonnes of posts that the religious way of doing it is painless, and yet people ramble on about religion being painful and whatnot.

Personally I couldn't care less. Let them do whatever the fuck they want. There are more important questions out there that requires the Dutch governments attention. Such as that they have a blantantly obvious racist as a big politician.
I bet i can maı̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̨̨̨̨̨̨ke you wipe your screen.
smacky
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States108 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-28 16:27:29
June 28 2011 16:02 GMT
#132
does the current law in the Netherlands make kosher hot dogs a controlled substance?

do you have to show affiliation to buy them or can any gentile with a wild hair pick up some kosher pastrami...maybe some spicy mustard




edit: ok this is me being serious: its not like jews and musims are going to eat unclean meat anyway so they are going to pay a premium for imported properly prepared meat. is that fair? they are still going to be eating animals that were awake when killed and then again only at a higher price and with additional tariffs applied by the dutch governement. obvious persecution. jews and muslims do not eat properly prepared meats because they thinks its cute or nice they do so to carry favor with their respective gods and lets be honest, because you dont believe in what they believe in doesnt mean you can arbitrarily make part of what they do as a part of their beliefs illegal...its perfectly asinine to suggest that they should not be allowed to kill their animals a certain way because peta freak lady gets squeamish when something gives birth.

honesty if you didnt get the last reference you shouldnt be posting some convoluted moralist argument here and be expected to be taken seriously.

love you all
all i want is flying zerglings....fling!! make it a micro
King K. Rool
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Canada4408 Posts
June 28 2011 16:03 GMT
#133
It's not like throat slitting is torture.

I can't understand how people can support this. Seems pretty close to religious persecution.

It's their culture; let them deal with animals how they want.
moltenlead
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada866 Posts
June 28 2011 16:04 GMT
#134
Traditions.

But I remember seeing somewhere that in a properly done halal killing the animals suffer negligible pain depending on the knife and precision of the cut.
nennx
Profile Joined April 2010
United States310 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-28 16:06:54
June 28 2011 16:05 GMT
#135
No who cares button?

Would just another freedom lost because of people who try to control the way other people live
Sup
Kipsate
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Netherlands45349 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-28 16:07:04
June 28 2011 16:06 GMT
#136
For anyone who is caring about if it will pass yes or no

It did pass, roughly 120 for against 30 against.(out of an obviously 150 ''representatives''.
WriterXiao8~~
Geordie
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United Kingdom653 Posts
June 28 2011 16:07 GMT
#137
Religion is such a mine field that I think we should just stick to the traditions, to avoid any trouble. Also the throat slitting, if done professionaly, is painless and we do not see muslims complaining about the traditions we have.

tl;dr : Leave it be.
Saraf
Profile Joined April 2011
United States160 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-28 16:08:41
June 28 2011 16:08 GMT
#138
On June 29 2011 00:55 Aberu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 29 2011 00:40 Aelip wrote:
On June 29 2011 00:32 Thorakh wrote:
On June 29 2011 00:27 Aelip wrote:
On June 29 2011 00:25 Thorakh wrote:
On June 29 2011 00:20 Aelip wrote:
It's just animals man, let the dude butcher them however they want. We're on top of the food chain, we can do whatever we want.
Tell me that again the day aliens visit us.


Will do, i may not find it fair or nice or pleasant, but it's the truth. If we want to do it, we can and should do it. Cause i tell you the animals would do the same if they could, why should we be the only race to show mercy? just because we can? that seems pointless, the animal will be dead anyway so it won't feel or remember anything mere seconds after it's happened.
Because we have the ability to do so. I watched a documentary on pet chimps today, in which a parallel was drawn between chimps and humans, as in that we are the only two species on earth that seem to derive pleasure from violence. However, chimps cannot control their anger/emotions and we humans can.

That's what sets us apart from every other species, the ability to control ourselves and the ability to reason.

pain = -1
slaughter = -1
no pain = +1
slaughter + pain = -1-1 = -2
slaughter + no pain= -1+1 = 0

Clearly one is better (although still not optimal for the being to be slaughtered).

Torturing something just for the sake of torturing (or being indifferent about it), is not a trait that we should be encouraging if we ever want peace in the world.


Slaughter = -1, why? It's good isn't it, it grants us FOOD, food we need to survive.

And painful slaughter has nothing to do with anger, it's makes them feel like they're doing something right, something for the greater good, and while you may disagree, why is your opinion better than theirs? Just because it prevents some animals of potentially feeling pain. As it's been said, you believe it to be more painful, they believe the opposite, that our way it more painful, why is your opinion the right one? As long as it's all based on beliefs the discussion is frankly pointless. 'till someone proves that one way hurts more than the other, it's irrelevant, and no wikipedia is not proof.



+ Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7xt5LtgsxQ


Relative morality as an argument is paper thin. Using cultural differences as an excuse for immoral behavior is not a valid argument. Maybe if butchering these animals had some demonstrable benefit to the people or was a preventative measure to prevent necessary livestock/farmland from being damaged. But they are just doing it without a valid reason. Because the bible says so, is not a valid reason to do something morally speaking.

First, it is a completely valid reason for the adherents of the religion; maybe you don't think so but they would tell you that you're wrong. Second, are you arguing that butchering the animals serves no purpose? They're slaughtered for food, that is a demonstrable benefit; if you weren't, skip to point three. Third, the religiously mandated process is more humane and less painful than zapping them with a stun gun and then killing them.

Sometimes there are reasons for traditions; for example, PETA introduced a method for goat castration that was supposedly "more humane" than the traditional method (cutting open the sack and pulling the testes out with your teeth). While the traditional method hurts the goats *now*, the PETA method lead to the goat suffering over the span of weeks, while the traditionally castrated goats were fine within hours.

EDIT: They had a goat farming episode on Dirty Jobs; that's my source for the goat business.
"Alas, poor MKP. I knew him, Zenio."
Skilledblob
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany3392 Posts
June 28 2011 16:08 GMT
#139
On June 29 2011 00:58 Zihua wrote:
Even considering religious tradition on this matter is against the idea of separation of church and state. Of course, in The Netherlands people don't really care about such idealist things. I'm very pleasantly surprised this might actually happen.


you know it's called religious freedom. Even the netherlands should have that though with that neo nazi running around in your country this law doesnt surprise me at all.

Aberu
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States968 Posts
June 28 2011 16:09 GMT
#140
On June 29 2011 00:57 Ferrose wrote:
I don't really see how killing animals in a "humane" way is really animal welfare since you are still killing the animals, but whatever.

Why does the slaughter of animals need to be humane? Why should animals be given humane treatment? Animals are lower than humans. They deserve to be treated like animals, not humans.

Edit: I don't see why the Dutch government feels the need to impose its will on the butchers. Slaughtering the animals in this fashion is a harmless practice (to human beings, that is), so I don't know why there needs to be laws against it.


Humans ARE animals for one thing. Next we know that animals feel pain, empathy, etc... so the human species is learning to adapt our culture morally to not inflict needless pain and suffering on other living things.
srsly
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