1. Criminalization creates an artificial drug market. Drugs which should be worthless are now very expensive, funneling trillions of dollars into violent organized crime.
2. Powerful lobbies such as the military, law enforcement, and prison departments largely benefit from this ecosystem, creating a vicious circle.
3. Countries such as Portugal have decriminalized all drugs and are enjoying huge successes with it.
Some people may be skeptical over whether an online petition has much pull in the real world, but I must remind people that Avaaz is a very reputable organization which have made significant world-wide impacts on very important issues.
For them to target the War on Drugs is very serious, and they've chosen a rather realistic and interesting way to do so: target international politics in an unprecedented manner. These discussions have never been opened up in the United States, but finally the world can open up to them in a productive way which may greatly impact American politics and help end the war on drugs.
On June 01 2011 02:07 optical630 wrote: what good can come out of regulating drugs?
i agree with cannabis, but the hard shit like cocaine, how can that seriously be regulated?
edit; only 500k signatures? thats a laughable amount
Well the idea is that you spend less money fighting against drug smugglers becuase now it's legal to buy so the illegal market is pushed out for the most part, along with that you spend money on education of the public on the effects of drugs with that hoping that most people make the right decision not to do drugs. Ofc for the illegal markets to be pushed out the thing like coke and heroin need to be readily available meaning people need to actually be using it.
That's the only pro-legalization argument that I think is reasonable. Supporters need to use this one more and the silly ones less.
But don't you agree we would first need better understanding of how much it would cost to regulate and fiscalize that hard drugs like cocaine and crack still aren't being sold as they shouldn't? You now moved the problem from paying cops to run around town looking for dealers. To bureaucrats being paid to look for clever frauds. And if fiscalization of regulation just happen to fail. Then you'll have increase of hard drug usage. And increase in healthcare cost from more people dying of crack.
How can you be sure that these new added costs won't be even bigger than the current costs?
I'd rather be paying bureaucrats to run around fingering eachother for fraud than having criminals running around shooting eachother and getting people caught in the middle, wouldn't you?
That, of course, is assuming the black market would go away entirely, which I highly doubt.
of course there are risks that are going to come into play legalizing drus. lets use marijuana as an example. marijuana. It will be tough to regulate, at least at first. It will be exploited just like alcohol and cigarettes (like kids getting ahold of them). but even then it would get into less hands of kids that it does now. How fucking easy is it to get a bag of weed these days? just walk down a street and you'll find someone. No system is perfect. But I believe that legalizing it would destroy a black market, create new revenue. Bring about many new businesses, opportunities and also police enforcement could focus on the drugs that really give people issues. Of course there comes the issues of personal choice. As someone mentioned. Marijuana is a bread and butter drug of big drug cartels. This would not solve the U.S. fiscal problems, we have a lot of other issues to deal with, but I think overall is a better alternative than the "war on drugs."
Edit: Sorry not destroy a black market, but it would take a decent size hit.
On June 01 2011 03:28 gnatinator wrote: Signed and justice bump.
For those just coming into this:
1. Criminalization creates an artificial drug market. Drugs which should be worthless are now very expensive, funneling trillions of dollars into violent organized crime.
2. Powerful lobbies such as the military, law enforcement, and prison departments largely benefit from this ecosystem, creating a vicious circle.
3. Countries such as Portugal have decriminalized all drugs and are enjoying huge successes with it.
Some people may be skeptical over whether an online petition has much pull in the real world, but I must remind people that Avaaz is a very reputable organization which have made significant world-wide impacts on very important issues.
For them to target the War on Drugs is very serious, and they've chosen a rather realistic and interesting way to do so: target international politics in an unprecedented manner. These discussions have never been opened up in the United States, but finally the world can open up to them in a productive way which may greatly impact American politics and help end the war on drugs.
thank you for providing something positive to this thread, and thank you everyone for your awareness on this issue
On June 01 2011 03:32 KillerPlague wrote: i hardly see the use of legalizing cocaine and meth. i say continue the war until we have won. for sparta!!!!
This is something I'm kind-of iffy on as well. I do believe it would be better as a regulated substance with all the warnings/security precautions than if it was on the street, but I can't be sure.
As for the war...it can't be won, that's the point.
Meanwhile, *countries with less-harsh enforcement -- like Switzerland, Portugal, the Netherlands, and Australia -- have not seen the explosion in drug use* that proponents of the drug war have darkly predicted. Instead, they have seen significant reductions in drug-related crime, addiction and deaths, and are able to focus squarely on dismantling criminal empires.
So what makes this an accurate statement? They haven't seen an explosion in drug use? Or they haven't caught an explosion in drug use cause they aren't looking for one? So if you have the herp but aren't looking for it, you don't have the herp? Yes continue to bury your heads in the sand and think this is the universe of Star Wars. "These are the droids you're looking for." Don't worry about it. You'll be ok. Well until your children get hooked on something that used to be illegal but is now just "regulated". But you will be fine. It's not your problem. Nothing is the problem of this younger new generation.
Oh, so what are these ideas to "regulate" drug usage, drug trafficking, drug smuggling, and drug money? So under this ideal it might have been possible to "regulate" Hitler's ideology and prosecution of his beliefs, right? Come on people. Hitler had to be stopped. And you know why he had to be stopped? Cause you would probably be speaking German now if he wasn't.
The people behind the drugs aren't going to sign on to have THEIR DRUGS, THEIR MONEY, THEIR POWER regulated. To think so is simply asinine and one must also believe unicorns, dragons, and Superman really exist.
Was the War on Drugs a fail fest? Yes. Was the War on Drugs properly planned, implemented, and executed for a short term and long term success? NO Was the problem the Hundreds of politicians all trying to make a name and make a mark on a policy? Yes
On June 01 2011 03:05 Spidinko wrote: I don't understand how legalizing drugs is goind to help humanity in any way.
Not gonna sign.
MAYBE YOU COULD READ ANY OF THE MILLION POSTS/WEBPAGES EXPLAINING IT THEN
christian: I don't understand evolution it doesn't make sense!
*never reads anything on evolution ever*
I've read posts in this thread. They didn't convince me.
Didn't know I need to have MD from anything that is discussed in a thread.
Of course it doesn't make sense to me, as I said earlier, I don't understand how it could help. I didn't say it couldn't.
THANKS FOR HELPING ME UNDERSTAND.
atheist: I'm right.
Because by keeping them illegal we are spending billions of dollars in law enforcement. Not only that, but we are creating a black market to traffic these drugs; markets owned by dangerous, murderous drug lords. It would be much better to have regulated sale for tax revenue, sanitation and the general safety of everyone involved. Also, the money we spend keeping all these people in jail is pretty absurd.
That's assuming we wouldn't have to watch over them then. When you legalize drugs usage you are gonna have to regulate it. That's where the black market comes in.
@money: That's right. We'd get more money because we'd be "drug trafficing". I just don't believe in legalizing things for monetary reasons. For me the future we're building is more important. What do you want for your kids?
@safety: That's the thing though. What makes you think we would be living in a safer world than we are now if drugs were legal?
hard drugs (cocaine, etc) = sorry, i dont think so >.<
people seem to be just thinking of weed when they see the word "drugs", what the petition is endorsing to be legalized isn't just weed... i can't agree to that
On June 01 2011 03:32 KillerPlague wrote: i hardly see the use of legalizing cocaine and meth. i say continue the war until we have won. for sparta!!!!
Theres perfectly legal stuff that'll mess you up 10 times worse than LSD, like salvia divinorum, and theres shit in some foods that I'm quite certain are far hazardous to your health than pure cocaine or heroin. You don't seem to be that vocal about those.
I'm not saying drugs aren't dangerous, they are, some very much so. Theres dangers all around us but that doesn't mean we have to start a war on everything that can get you high or is bad for your health or is addictive. The only way to protect people from that kind of stuff is infact to inform so they can make the descission for themselves.
The war on drugs is like trying to put fire with napalm, you just make matters worse.
Meanwhile, *countries with less-harsh enforcement -- like Switzerland, Portugal, the Netherlands, and Australia -- have not seen the explosion in drug use* that proponents of the drug war have darkly predicted. Instead, they have seen significant reductions in drug-related crime, addiction and deaths, and are able to focus squarely on dismantling criminal empires.
So what makes this an accurate statement? They haven't seen an explosion in drug use? Or they haven't caught an explosion in drug use cause they aren't looking for one? So if you have the herp but aren't looking for it, you don't have the herp? Yes continue to bury your heads in the sand and think this is the universe of Star Wars. "These are the droids you're looking for." Don't worry about it. You'll be ok. Well until your children get hooked on something that used to be illegal but is now just "regulated". But you will be fine. It's not your problem. Nothing is the problem of this younger new generation.
Oh, so what are these ideas to "regulate" drug usage, drug trafficking, drug smuggling, and drug money? So under this ideal it might have been possible to "regulate" Hitler's ideology and prosecution of his beliefs, right? Come on people. Hitler had to be stopped. And you know why he had to be stopped? Cause you would probably be speaking German now if he wasn't.
The people behind the drugs aren't going to sign on to have THEIR DRUGS, THEIR MONEY, THEIR POWER regulated. To think so is simply asinine and one must also believe unicorns, dragons, and Superman really exist.
Was the War on Drugs a fail fest? Yes. Was the War on Drugs properly planned, implemented, and executed for a short term and long term success? NO Was the problem the Hundreds of politicians all trying to make a name and make a mark on a policy? Yes
Why would you think that the best way to make your point is to diss other people and patronize them? Also, your analogy is the worst I've seen and I've been known to make shitty analogies, so I know one when I see one.
Your argument also has no proof nor statistics to back them up, and hence no value whatsoever. Come back with statistics on drug use in those countries before you accuse me of believing in unicorns. And lastly, do not make random logical deductions with obvious fallacies, they just make you look like a dumb conspiracy theorist.
On June 01 2011 03:05 Spidinko wrote: I don't understand how legalizing drugs is goind to help humanity in any way.
Not gonna sign.
MAYBE YOU COULD READ ANY OF THE MILLION POSTS/WEBPAGES EXPLAINING IT THEN
christian: I don't understand evolution it doesn't make sense!
*never reads anything on evolution ever*
I've read posts in this thread. They didn't convince me.
Didn't know I need to have MD from anything that is discussed in a thread.
Of course it doesn't make sense to me, as I said earlier, I don't understand how it could help. I didn't say it couldn't.
THANKS FOR HELPING ME UNDERSTAND.
atheist: I'm right.
You didn't understand because you're not aproaching the subject with an understanding attitude. If you do research, read a lot of articles on the issue and examine the arguments from both sides you would understand. Reading random post in some thread would only give you fractions of the actual information, some probably out of context or missinterpreted.
On another note, heres an awesome animation on marihuana prohibition, I think it illustrates the events QUITE accuretly
I'm trying to form an opinion from ones presented in here. It's not my fault their arguments aren't convincing enough. Most people signing it from here seem pretty sure about it (otherwise why would they vote about something like that without doing research).
If it could be argumented to be better for our species I don't see why I wouldn't support it.
On June 01 2011 03:41 dogmode wrote: weed = legalize it!
hard drugs (cocaine, etc) = sorry, i dont think so >.<
people seem to be just thinking of weed when they see the word "drugs", what the petition is endorsing to be legalized isn't just weed... i can't agree to that
This, exactly. I'm also a little disappointed to see that so many think it would be a good idea to leagalize those hard drugs. They are illegal because they are addicting to the point of wrecking your entire life and have serious health consequences.... this is the absolute wrong way to end the "war on drugs"....
Meanwhile, *countries with less-harsh enforcement -- like Switzerland, Portugal, the Netherlands, and Australia -- have not seen the explosion in drug use* that proponents of the drug war have darkly predicted. Instead, they have seen significant reductions in drug-related crime, addiction and deaths, and are able to focus squarely on dismantling criminal empires.
So what makes this an accurate statement? They haven't seen an explosion in drug use? Or they haven't caught an explosion in drug use cause they aren't looking for one? and a bunch of garbage, eventually making a ridiculous comparison to hitler? LOL
This entire post is speculation based on the fact that he thinks they didn't do their research in saying there wasn't an explosion in drug use after legalization. Please, TL readers, don't take this ideological drivel seriously. Signed petition. We, the tax payers, are wasting money on jails while drug users are paying towards crime lords who are into crimes much worse than selling drugs (human trafficking and arms smuggling?).
Theres perfectly legal stuff that'll mess you up 10 times worse than LSD, like salvia divinorum, and theres shit in some foods that I'm quite certain are far hazardous to your health than pure cocaine or heroin. You don't seem to be that vocal about those.
what is this i dont even
foods?
also real lsd fucks you up way more than salvia, back in the day owsley stuff
legalize weed legalize lsd legalize ecstasy hell legalize mescaline why not keep most of the rest illegal sorry cocaine and opium products are very powerful there are things that more powerful than your body and they are among those things.
you dont think you can handle a thousand pound rock being dropped on your head just because you want it to be that way it's the same way with drugs that have a really powerful and deleterious effect on your body.
Ugh, how can any sane person support this? You can't legalize something and make it go away and everything will be better. You can't say Meth is fine now and suddenly you'll stop seeing Meth lab explosion stories in the newspaper or the story of the guy full of PCP who tries to go on a rampage in public.
You also can't say cocaine,meth,Heroine, and every other "hard" drug is bad but Weed is fine. The stoner imagery so popularized in film exists for a reason I've seen it, you've seen it and it's really kinda sad when you think about it.
Instead of ending a War of Drugs, why not actually have a real drug enforcement policy. Users need to be treated, sellers need to be jailed, and producers need to realize it's not profitable for them. You do that by removing the userbase and making it too expensive to produce due to the risks involved.
Of course that'd require efforts that's about as likey as an internet campaign ending the War on Drugs in the first place.
EPT
