|
On April 09 2011 12:18 chonkyfire wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2011 12:18 Keitzer wrote:On April 09 2011 12:17 chonkyfire wrote:
I can't find any source that says you don't multiply the parenthesis first
2(4+1) = 2(5)
You do that first. 48 * 1/2 * (9+3) Outmath that, then talk to me. That's not what was written it was written 48/2(9+3)
48 / 2 * (9+3)
48 * 1/2 * (9+3)
make more sense now?
|
On April 09 2011 11:39 Pufftrees wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2011 11:35 -{Cake}- wrote:On April 09 2011 11:33 Pufftrees wrote:On April 09 2011 11:30 Sluggy wrote:On April 09 2011 10:53 Pufftrees wrote:On April 09 2011 10:07 gerundium wrote:On April 09 2011 10:04 FindMeInKenya wrote:
Again, read that long post on page 62, which basically explains why there's no priorities for real numbers. Maybe your Uni and work has some rules for the sake of simplification, but for a theoretical mathematician, 288 is the only agreeable answer. how about no. A mathematician would see that the question is phrased poorly and whoever did it has failed to make his intentions clear, therefor arguing any side is pointless. This "mathematician" you speak of is actually an English major who thinks he's good at Math or something? You can't phrase math poorly, there is one way to interpret this correctly, every other way is wrong. 2 is wrong, if you voted for 2 (all 800+ of you), you do not understand basic mathematical conventions... even though it's obviously written to throw off people with lesser Math skills. I voted 288 because the convention I have always used is left associative when the operators have the same precedence. However, it is clear there are people that have never been exposed to this convention. The problem is much more deeply rooted in philosophy than you think. Even if there were an international standard, the problem would have to state: 'use the international standard to resolve ambiguities' to allow for any notion of correctness. Your assumption that the most popular convention is the only acceptable way to evaluate an expression is fundamentally wrong. You can not argue for correctness based on a convention, but that is exactly what you are doing. Your statements about people having lesser math skills if they don't use that convention (due to never being introduced to it) is ironic. What the hell does this have to do with conventions? There is one correct answer to this, if your "university" teaches a short cut or some other "convention" that really doesn't matter. There is one correct answer, 288. If you put 2, you are wrong. HOW is this 90 pages haha. So anything said other languages is wrong because it's not the one you speak? What does this have to do with languages? There are probably 1 percent of people on teamliquid with a Master Degree and above in a field that uses mathematics (sorry business degrees, thats not real mathematics). And if you ask ANY of them they will without a doubt tell you, 100 percent, yes the answer is 288. Just because you learned PEMDAS in 4th grade and don't "really" understand how Math works, doesn't mean your ignorance gives you the right to argue this. The answer is 288, give it up. There is no ambiguity, it's written to trick someone who's doesn't truly understand the order of operations.
I am not entirely familiar with US degree system so anyway 5 years of math in uni should be hopefully enough, I can tell you that the answer depends on the notation used. Yes, 288 is slightly more proper, but that's it.
EDIT: And it has to do with language, because we use semi-formal languages to work with math most of the time and we use different notations and all that jazz.
|
There isn't a lot more to say regarding the OP. However, I found this thread of mathematicians discussing the same issue and was cracking up while reading it. Here are a couple of gems:
"Umm...yes, I'll accept that. Strict BODMAS (or BOMDAS) are artificial conventions in use by (almost, to be on the safe side) nobody. Though I shouldn't be too surprised if there were a few students out there who took it too literally."
"hear, hear. It's the sort of thing which school teachers get terribly worked up about, then terribly hurt when they find that the rest of the world just doesn't care."
Edit: Forgot the link to the thread: http://www.mathkb.com/Uwe/Forum.aspx/uk-math/559/evaluation-order
|
On April 09 2011 12:20 Keitzer wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2011 12:18 chonkyfire wrote:On April 09 2011 12:18 Keitzer wrote:On April 09 2011 12:17 chonkyfire wrote:
I can't find any source that says you don't multiply the parenthesis first
2(4+1) = 2(5)
You do that first. 48 * 1/2 * (9+3) Outmath that, then talk to me. That's not what was written it was written 48/2(9+3) 48 / 2 * (9+3) 48 * 1/2 * (9+3) make more sense now?
Nope
48/24 is 48/2(9+3) simplified
|
On April 09 2011 12:21 chonkyfire wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2011 12:20 Keitzer wrote:On April 09 2011 12:18 chonkyfire wrote:On April 09 2011 12:18 Keitzer wrote:On April 09 2011 12:17 chonkyfire wrote:
I can't find any source that says you don't multiply the parenthesis first
2(4+1) = 2(5)
You do that first. 48 * 1/2 * (9+3) Outmath that, then talk to me. That's not what was written it was written 48/2(9+3) 48 / 2 * (9+3) 48 * 1/2 * (9+3) make more sense now? Nope 48/24 is 48/2(9+3) simplified
ok... so is it 48 / ( 2 * 12 )
or (48 / 2 ) * 12
edit: btw, it's #2 since 48 / 2 = 48 * 1/2 (or .5 if you're into decimals)
so it CAN ALSO BE WRITTEN AS
48 * .5 * 12
|
United States5162 Posts
On April 09 2011 12:18 mints wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2011 12:14 Myles wrote:On April 09 2011 12:05 mints wrote:On April 09 2011 12:00 Myles wrote:On April 09 2011 11:55 mints wrote:48÷2(9+3) =48÷2(12) =48÷24 =2 or ![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/P1NvC.gif) =2 Im still standing by the answer 2. Multiplication and division have the same order of operation, so you do whichever comes first when reading left to right. Thus you would do the parenthesis first like you did, but then do the division of 48/2 since it comes before multiplying the 2*12. No...when you add (9+3) ... its then 48÷2(12), the parenthesis does not disappear..so you would distribute the 2 then divide. Thus 48÷24=2 In this case you're not really distributing anything since 2(12) is equivalent to 2*12, making the whole thing go to 48÷2*12, in which you follow left to right since neither operation takes precedence. Distributing occurs when theres a parenthesis. Hence PEMDAS or whatever you use. Again the parenthesis does not disappear when you add the 9+3..the 12 is the in parenthesis. So it takes priority.
You distribute before evaluating the parenthesis. See my previous edit.
|
On April 09 2011 12:18 mints wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2011 12:14 Myles wrote:On April 09 2011 12:05 mints wrote:On April 09 2011 12:00 Myles wrote:On April 09 2011 11:55 mints wrote:48÷2(9+3) =48÷2(12) =48÷24 =2 or =2 Im still standing by the answer 2. Multiplication and division have the same order of operation, so you do whichever comes first when reading left to right. Thus you would do the parenthesis first like you did, but then do the division of 48/2 since it comes before multiplying the 2*12. No...when you add (9+3) ... its then 48÷2(12), the parenthesis does not disappear..so you would distribute the 2 then divide. Thus 48÷24=2 In this case you're not really distributing anything since 2(12) is equivalent to 2*12, making the whole thing go to 48÷2*12, in which you follow left to right since neither operation takes precedence. Distributing occurs when theres a parenthesis. Hence PEMDAS or whatever you use. Again the parenthesis does not disappear when you add the 9+3..the 12 is the in parenthesis. So it takes priority.
they do disappear. A constant next to parenthesis is the same as multiplication - there is no precedence.
If I write 2(12) it is the same as 2 * 12. Like I said before even if you have different notations the easiest way to solve it is just REWRITE the entire thing so ALL the terms have multiplication. Whats the answer to this:
(48)(1/2)(9+3)
Using the way you'd do it with parenthesis taking precedence what are the steps you'd use to solve this?
|
On April 09 2011 12:20 Keitzer wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2011 12:18 chonkyfire wrote:On April 09 2011 12:18 Keitzer wrote:On April 09 2011 12:17 chonkyfire wrote:
I can't find any source that says you don't multiply the parenthesis first
2(4+1) = 2(5)
You do that first. 48 * 1/2 * (9+3) Outmath that, then talk to me. That's not what was written it was written 48/2(9+3) 48 / 2 * (9+3) 48 * 1/2 * (9+3) make more sense now?
Now you are ignoring the rule AMS uses in their publications, and rewriting what was written in the OP. Everyone should just give up and join a "The OP writer is a shithead" bandwagon. 
|
I think that in different countries particularly america and the uk, the math style can varry abit. Having lived in both for over decade each way and studying physics I am convinced that some of the style is varriable however the answer for the first question is clearly 288.
Fun post though, do we get to do any hard problems? trololololololololololo http://tinyurl.com/398w9x7
|
On April 09 2011 12:15 Keitzer wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2011 12:13 mints wrote:On April 09 2011 12:08 Keitzer wrote:On April 09 2011 12:05 mints wrote:On April 09 2011 12:00 Myles wrote:On April 09 2011 11:55 mints wrote:48÷2(9+3) =48÷2(12) =48÷24 =2 or =2 Im still standing by the answer 2. Multiplication and division have the same order of operation, so you do whichever comes first when reading left to right. Thus you would do the parenthesis first like you did, but then do the division of 48/2 since it comes before multiplying the 2*12. No...when you add (9+3) ... its then 48÷2(12), the parenthesis does not disappear..so you would distribute the 2 then divide. Thus 48÷24=2 Distributing = multiplication (notice how you MULTIPLIED the 2 by the 12).. which, in order of operations, states that it's on the same level as division, which means you're still wrong. Yes distribution is the same thing as multiplication no argument there..but you distribute (ie. if there is a parenthesis) before doing multiplication or division. OK, maybe this will convice you... it's what Ace said earlier... 48 / 2 * (9+3) 48 * 1/2 * (9+3) outmath that... since THAT'S WHAT'S IN THE OP! and don't tell me you can just forget about the first multiplication
There is no multiplication symbol between the 2 and the (9 + 3), so don't put one there. It changes the format of the question for those who believe multiplication by juxtaposition takes precedence over regular multiplication and division.
|
On April 09 2011 12:18 mints wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2011 12:14 Myles wrote:On April 09 2011 12:05 mints wrote:On April 09 2011 12:00 Myles wrote:On April 09 2011 11:55 mints wrote:48÷2(9+3) =48÷2(12) =48÷24 =2 or =2 Im still standing by the answer 2. Multiplication and division have the same order of operation, so you do whichever comes first when reading left to right. Thus you would do the parenthesis first like you did, but then do the division of 48/2 since it comes before multiplying the 2*12. No...when you add (9+3) ... its then 48÷2(12), the parenthesis does not disappear..so you would distribute the 2 then divide. Thus 48÷24=2 In this case you're not really distributing anything since 2(12) is equivalent to 2*12, making the whole thing go to 48÷2*12, in which you follow left to right since neither operation takes precedence. Distributing occurs when theres a parenthesis. Hence PEMDAS or whatever you use. Again the parenthesis does not disappear when you add the 9+3..the 12 is the in parenthesis. So it takes priority.
No I think you misunderstood the bracket rule when you were introduced to it. The rules apply to what's inside the bracket not what is operating on the bracket.
|
On April 09 2011 12:23 reprise wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2011 12:15 Keitzer wrote:On April 09 2011 12:13 mints wrote:On April 09 2011 12:08 Keitzer wrote:On April 09 2011 12:05 mints wrote:On April 09 2011 12:00 Myles wrote:On April 09 2011 11:55 mints wrote:48÷2(9+3) =48÷2(12) =48÷24 =2 or =2 Im still standing by the answer 2. Multiplication and division have the same order of operation, so you do whichever comes first when reading left to right. Thus you would do the parenthesis first like you did, but then do the division of 48/2 since it comes before multiplying the 2*12. No...when you add (9+3) ... its then 48÷2(12), the parenthesis does not disappear..so you would distribute the 2 then divide. Thus 48÷24=2 Distributing = multiplication (notice how you MULTIPLIED the 2 by the 12).. which, in order of operations, states that it's on the same level as division, which means you're still wrong. Yes distribution is the same thing as multiplication no argument there..but you distribute (ie. if there is a parenthesis) before doing multiplication or division. OK, maybe this will convice you... it's what Ace said earlier... 48 / 2 * (9+3) 48 * 1/2 * (9+3) outmath that... since THAT'S WHAT'S IN THE OP! and don't tell me you can just forget about the first multiplication There is no multiplication symbol between the 2 and the (9 + 3), so don't put one there. It changes the format of the question for those who believe multiplication by juxtaposition takes precedence over regular multiplication and division.
what the fuck?
Sir, to take the high road, I shall first ask... what is your math experience? Because to me, it does not seem higher than a 5th grader who doesn't know what () means in math class.
|
On April 09 2011 12:23 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2011 12:18 mints wrote:On April 09 2011 12:14 Myles wrote:On April 09 2011 12:05 mints wrote:On April 09 2011 12:00 Myles wrote:On April 09 2011 11:55 mints wrote:48÷2(9+3) =48÷2(12) =48÷24 =2 or =2 Im still standing by the answer 2. Multiplication and division have the same order of operation, so you do whichever comes first when reading left to right. Thus you would do the parenthesis first like you did, but then do the division of 48/2 since it comes before multiplying the 2*12. No...when you add (9+3) ... its then 48÷2(12), the parenthesis does not disappear..so you would distribute the 2 then divide. Thus 48÷24=2 In this case you're not really distributing anything since 2(12) is equivalent to 2*12, making the whole thing go to 48÷2*12, in which you follow left to right since neither operation takes precedence. Distributing occurs when theres a parenthesis. Hence PEMDAS or whatever you use. Again the parenthesis does not disappear when you add the 9+3..the 12 is the in parenthesis. So it takes priority. they do disappear. A constant next to parenthesis is the same as multiplication - there is no precedence. If I write 2(12) it is the same as 2 * 12. Like I said before even if you have different notations the easiest way to solve it is just REWRITE the entire thing so ALL the terms have multiplication. Whats the answer to this: (48)(1/2)(9+3) Using the way you'd do it with parenthesis taking precedence what are the steps you'd use to solve this?
You, too, missed this post:
On April 09 2011 05:23 MasterOfChaos wrote:
At least one reputable source, namely the American Mathematical Society used high priority for omitted multiplication signs in their publications.
We linearize simple formulas, using the rule that multiplication indicated by juxtaposition is carried out before division. For example, your TeX-coded display $${1\over{2\pi i}}\int_\Gamma {f(t)\over (t-z)}dt$$ ![[image loading]](http://latex.codecogs.com/gif.latex?$${1%5Cover{2%5Cpi%20i}}%5Cint_%5CGamma%20{f(t)%5Cover%20(t-z)}dt$$) is likely to be converted to $(1/2\pi i)\int_\Gamma f(t)(t-z)^{-1}dt$ ![[image loading]](http://latex.codecogs.com/gif.latex?$(1/2%5Cpi%20i)%5Cint_%5CGamma%20f(t)(t-z)^{-1}dt$) in our production process.
http://replay.waybackmachine.org/20011201061315/http://www.ams.org/authors/guide-reviewers.html
|
Wouldn't the rule that implicit multiplication is always done before explicit multiplication create terrible problems for people who are also taught that you can omit the *?
|
On April 09 2011 12:22 Keitzer wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2011 12:21 chonkyfire wrote:On April 09 2011 12:20 Keitzer wrote:On April 09 2011 12:18 chonkyfire wrote:On April 09 2011 12:18 Keitzer wrote:On April 09 2011 12:17 chonkyfire wrote:
I can't find any source that says you don't multiply the parenthesis first
2(4+1) = 2(5)
You do that first. 48 * 1/2 * (9+3) Outmath that, then talk to me. That's not what was written it was written 48/2(9+3) 48 / 2 * (9+3) 48 * 1/2 * (9+3) make more sense now? Nope 48/24 is 48/2(9+3) simplified ok... so is it 48 / ( 2 * 12 ) or (48 / 2 ) * 12
Well that's what this 90 page thread is about. I've found 3 different sources + numerous people in this thread saying that the 2 belongs with 9+3. Of course sources don't mean anything in this discussion because they don't have a clue so...
Seems like if the answer was intended to be 288 though parenthesis should have been put around 48/2, if you want 288 you should probably do that.
For the record I thought it was 288 at first also.
|
On April 09 2011 12:22 Keitzer wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2011 12:21 chonkyfire wrote:On April 09 2011 12:20 Keitzer wrote:On April 09 2011 12:18 chonkyfire wrote:On April 09 2011 12:18 Keitzer wrote:On April 09 2011 12:17 chonkyfire wrote:
I can't find any source that says you don't multiply the parenthesis first
2(4+1) = 2(5)
You do that first. 48 * 1/2 * (9+3) Outmath that, then talk to me. That's not what was written it was written 48/2(9+3) 48 / 2 * (9+3) 48 * 1/2 * (9+3) make more sense now? Nope 48/24 is 48/2(9+3) simplified ok... so is it 48 / ( 2 * 12 ) or (48 / 2 ) * 12 edit: btw, it's #2 since 48 / 2 = 48 * 1/2 (or .5 if you're into decimals) so it CAN ALSO BE WRITTEN AS 48 * .5 * 12
wtf are you talking about, everything you just said has nothing to do with the OP.
|
On April 09 2011 12:25 DiamondTear wrote:
Wouldn't the rule that implicit multiplication is always done before explicit multiplication create terrible problems for people who are also taught that you can omit the *?
if the 2 is in parenthesis with the 48 there is only 1 answer.
|
On April 09 2011 12:25 Ropid wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2011 12:23 Ace wrote:On April 09 2011 12:18 mints wrote:On April 09 2011 12:14 Myles wrote:On April 09 2011 12:05 mints wrote:On April 09 2011 12:00 Myles wrote:On April 09 2011 11:55 mints wrote:48÷2(9+3) =48÷2(12) =48÷24 =2 or =2 Im still standing by the answer 2. Multiplication and division have the same order of operation, so you do whichever comes first when reading left to right. Thus you would do the parenthesis first like you did, but then do the division of 48/2 since it comes before multiplying the 2*12. No...when you add (9+3) ... its then 48÷2(12), the parenthesis does not disappear..so you would distribute the 2 then divide. Thus 48÷24=2 In this case you're not really distributing anything since 2(12) is equivalent to 2*12, making the whole thing go to 48÷2*12, in which you follow left to right since neither operation takes precedence. Distributing occurs when theres a parenthesis. Hence PEMDAS or whatever you use. Again the parenthesis does not disappear when you add the 9+3..the 12 is the in parenthesis. So it takes priority. they do disappear. A constant next to parenthesis is the same as multiplication - there is no precedence. If I write 2(12) it is the same as 2 * 12. Like I said before even if you have different notations the easiest way to solve it is just REWRITE the entire thing so ALL the terms have multiplication. Whats the answer to this: (48)(1/2)(9+3) Using the way you'd do it with parenthesis taking precedence what are the steps you'd use to solve this? You, too, missed this post: On April 09 2011 05:23 MasterOfChaos wrote:At least one reputable source, namely the American Mathematical Society used high priority for omitted multiplication signs in their publications. Show nested quote +We linearize simple formulas, using the rule that multiplication indicated by juxtaposition is carried out before division. For example, your TeX-coded display $${1\over{2\pi i}}\int_\Gamma {f(t)\over (t-z)}dt$$ is likely to be converted to $(1/2\pi i)\int_\Gamma f(t)(t-z)^{-1}dt$ in our production process. http://replay.waybackmachine.org/20011201061315/http://www.ams.org/authors/guide-reviewers.html
WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG!
god, stop posting impossible bullshit...
your post can be simplified saying that
5 * 5 + 5 = 125.... wait wut?
ya, i ASSUMED parenthesis like you're fancy pic did (1/2pi i, remember that? it's NOT equal to 1 / (2pi i) )
|
Probably, Im gonna cede my argument on this thread...this is why I'm a law major...math is such a headache.
|
On April 09 2011 12:25 Ropid wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2011 12:23 Ace wrote:On April 09 2011 12:18 mints wrote:On April 09 2011 12:14 Myles wrote:On April 09 2011 12:05 mints wrote:On April 09 2011 12:00 Myles wrote:On April 09 2011 11:55 mints wrote:48÷2(9+3) =48÷2(12) =48÷24 =2 or =2 Im still standing by the answer 2. Multiplication and division have the same order of operation, so you do whichever comes first when reading left to right. Thus you would do the parenthesis first like you did, but then do the division of 48/2 since it comes before multiplying the 2*12. No...when you add (9+3) ... its then 48÷2(12), the parenthesis does not disappear..so you would distribute the 2 then divide. Thus 48÷24=2 In this case you're not really distributing anything since 2(12) is equivalent to 2*12, making the whole thing go to 48÷2*12, in which you follow left to right since neither operation takes precedence. Distributing occurs when theres a parenthesis. Hence PEMDAS or whatever you use. Again the parenthesis does not disappear when you add the 9+3..the 12 is the in parenthesis. So it takes priority. they do disappear. A constant next to parenthesis is the same as multiplication - there is no precedence. If I write 2(12) it is the same as 2 * 12. Like I said before even if you have different notations the easiest way to solve it is just REWRITE the entire thing so ALL the terms have multiplication. Whats the answer to this: (48)(1/2)(9+3) Using the way you'd do it with parenthesis taking precedence what are the steps you'd use to solve this? You, too, missed this post: On April 09 2011 05:23 MasterOfChaos wrote:At least one reputable source, namely the American Mathematical Society used high priority for omitted multiplication signs in their publications. Show nested quote +We linearize simple formulas, using the rule that multiplication indicated by juxtaposition is carried out before division. For example, your TeX-coded display $${1\over{2\pi i}}\int_\Gamma {f(t)\over (t-z)}dt$$ is likely to be converted to $(1/2\pi i)\int_\Gamma f(t)(t-z)^{-1}dt$ in our production process. http://replay.waybackmachine.org/20011201061315/http://www.ams.org/authors/guide-reviewers.html
Thats nice.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
