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Please guys, stay on topic. This thread is about the situation in Iraq and Syria. | ||
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hfglgg
Germany5372 Posts
On November 24 2015 20:37 dDazed wrote: What the hell? Why shoot it down? They had 2 F-16s chasing it. because there was a similar incident a couple of weeks ago where turkey officially protested and gave a last warning that the next time it happens, they will apply the normal rules of engagement and not make any exceptions again. normal rules of engagement means shooting the plane down after a first warning. | ||
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zeo
Serbia6343 Posts
On November 24 2015 18:57 Silvanel wrote: The question now is how will Russia respond? They cant resolve to only talking, that will make them look weak. And one thing Putin cant afford is looking weak. I am actually very curious what course of action will Russians take. Lets hope we wont enter escalation spiral. Its hard to know how the Russians will respond. Russian actions (diplomatic and military) are dictated by their interests. We don't really know the real relationship between Turkey and Russia but the key issue is the pipeline deal between the two countries, if its a done deal then it will just be a sharp protest by Russia, if its not then shit could go down. Also this could escalate into a diplomatic conflict between the US and Russia which plays into Turkish interests because they profit from playing both sides. The RuAF could simply see every plane not Russian within Syrian airspace as a threat and start shooting them down which would mean the NATO coalition leaving anti-ISIS operations in Syria. Of course, whatever the outcome Turkey has just kicked themselves out of any negotiations regarding Syria and France moves into a key role. In any case expect Putin to come out with a statement that Russia is committed to the fight against ISIS while Turkey is committed to helping them and they will probably shoot down a Turk plane just so everyone knows who's the boss. Seeing as how the Russian pilot was just executed by 'modarate' rebals Russia is going to be pissed. As for the 'we warned them 10 times' bullshit: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/7dTXZ5p.png) This is the flight path of the plane over Turkish airspace, all in all 2,4 km. If we take into account that the top speed of the Sukhoi is 1,315km/h, at top speed thats 6,5 sec in Turkish airspace but let just say it was around 8-10 sec. So in 10 sec Turkey contacted the plane and warned them 10 times and Erdogan himself gave the order to shoot it down? Really? This is a massive fuckup and it will have consequences... edit: You can't even finish the sentence warning them to leave the airspace in 10 seconds. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22675 Posts
On November 24 2015 21:00 zeo wrote: Its hard to know how the Russians will respond. Russian actions (diplomatic and military) are dictated by their interests. We don't really know the real relationship between Turkey and Russia but the key issue is the pipeline deal between the two countries, if its a done deal then it will just be a sharp protest by Russia, if its not then shit could go down. Also this could escalate into a diplomatic conflict between the US and Russia which plays into Turkish interests because they profit from playing both sides. The RuAF could simply see every plane not Russian within Syrian airspace as a threat and start shooting them down which would mean the NATO coalition leaving anti-ISIS operations in Syria. Of course, whatever the outcome Turkey has just kicked themselves out of any negotiations regarding Syria and France moves into a key role. In any case expect Putin to come out with a statement that Russia is committed to the fight against ISIS while Turkey is committed to helping them and they will probably shoot down a Turk plane just so everyone knows who's the boss. Seeing as how the Russian pilot was just executed by 'modarate' rebals Russia is going to be pissed. As for the 'we warned them 10 times' bullshit: This is the flight path of the plane over Turkish airspace, all in all 2,4 km. If we take into account that the top speed of the Sukhoi is 1,315km/h, at top speed thats 6,5 sec in Turkish airspace but let just say it was around 8-10 sec. So in 10 sec Turkey contacted the plane and warned them 10 times and Erdogan himself gave the order to shoot it down? Really? This is a massive fuckup and it will have consequences... edit: You can't even finish the sentence warning them to leave the airspace in 10 seconds. Russia has a long history of antagonising other countries by violating their airspace with fighters and bombers. They have violated Turkeys air space before. Turkey has warned Russia they will not accept it again. Russia did it again anyway Turkey shot them down Regardless of how many timed they did or did not warn. They were entirely in their right to shoot that fighter down. | ||
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Reaps
United Kingdom1280 Posts
Picture of his body surrounded by rebels in Syria https://www.rt.com/news/323237-video-dead-russian-pilot/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=RSS | ||
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Reaps
United Kingdom1280 Posts
It was over Syria though so I assume it was by the rebels. | ||
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RvB
Netherlands6325 Posts
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Soap
Brazil1546 Posts
On November 24 2015 21:20 RvB wrote: Zeo do you have a source for that flight path? | ||
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mahrgell
Germany3943 Posts
On November 24 2015 21:20 RvB wrote: Zeo do you have a source for that flight path? CNN Turk, citing the Turkish airforce Russia denies even those couple of seconds in Turkish airspace. | ||
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hfglgg
Germany5372 Posts
On November 24 2015 21:20 RvB wrote: Zeo do you have a source for that flight path? its the turkish claims of the flightpath, russia obviously denies it. on the warning: i dont think you start warning an alien vessel only once it crosses your airspace. you probably start warning it when it is close by and shoot it down the second it enters. everything else doesnt make much sense. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22675 Posts
On November 24 2015 21:23 mahrgell wrote: CNN Turk, citing the Turkish airforce Russia denies even those couple of seconds in Turkish airspace. ofc russia denies it. If they admit it then Turkey is legitimate in their action. | ||
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Silvanel
Poland4769 Posts
On November 24 2015 21:00 zeo wrote: Its hard to know how the Russians will respond. Russian actions (diplomatic and military) are dictated by their interests. We don't really know the real relationship between Turkey and Russia but the key issue is the pipeline deal between the two countries, if its a done deal then it will just be a sharp protest by Russia, if its not then shit could go down. Also this could escalate into a diplomatic conflict between the US and Russia which plays into Turkish interests because they profit from playing both sides. The RuAF could simply see every plane not Russian within Syrian airspace as a threat and start shooting them down which would mean the NATO coalition leaving anti-ISIS operations in Syria. Of course, whatever the outcome Turkey has just kicked themselves out of any negotiations regarding Syria and France moves into a key role. In any case expect Putin to come out with a statement that Russia is committed to the fight against ISIS while Turkey is committed to helping them and they will probably shoot down a Turk plane just so everyone knows who's the boss. Seeing as how the Russian pilot was just executed by 'modarate' rebals Russia is going to be pissed. As for the 'we warned them 10 times' bullshit: This is the flight path of the plane over Turkish airspace, all in all 2,4 km. If we take into account that the top speed of the Sukhoi is 1,315km/h, at top speed thats 6,5 sec in Turkish airspace but let just say it was around 8-10 sec. So in 10 sec Turkey contacted the plane and warned them 10 times and Erdogan himself gave the order to shoot it down? Really? This is a massive fuckup and it will have consequences... edit: You can't even finish the sentence warning them to leave the airspace in 10 seconds. Few things regarding the warning: 1.Turks might have started issue warnings while plane approched the border. 2.Its not likely plane was traveling at maximum speed. 3.It is possible that Russian plane didnt receive any warnings at all. Different frequencies/equipment etc. might have contributed to Russians not receiving a warning even if Turks did indeed send them. PS. To people thinking that shooting down nuclear superpower fighter plane for a few second violation of airspace is legitimate--->Thats playing with fire. Turkey is playing their cards banking on Russians not having guts/interests in escalation. Only time will tell if they if they will get burn. | ||
Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On November 24 2015 21:26 Gorsameth wrote: ofc russia denies it. If they admit it then Turkey is legitimate in their action. They're not legitimate in their own explanation. The "10 warnings in 5 minutes" doesn't corroborate with Turkey's own provided flight path. This is the point where NATO needs to have a very serious discussion about Turkey's future in the group. We'd like the base, but not at this cost and Turkey has been disruptive in every other regard. | ||
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Oshuy
Netherlands529 Posts
On November 24 2015 21:35 Jibba wrote: They're not legitimate in their own explanation. The "10 warnings in 5 minutes" doesn't corroborate with Turkey's own provided flight path. This is the point where NATO needs to have a very serious discussion about Turkey's future in the group. We'd like the base, but not at this cost and Turkey has been disruptive in every other regard. Turkey's line is that they warned the plane it was about to enter Turkish space and would be shot down if it did (if I understand correctly). So the plane would have been out of Turkish space when the warnings were issued and the few seconds over Turkey were the trigger to carry out existing orders. (still fishy with the radar path provided) | ||
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Maenander
Germany4927 Posts
Let's be realistic, no other NATO country would have shot down a Russian plane over a minor violation like that. Seems like Erdogan is not amused that all of his schemes for Syria went to hell. | ||
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On November 24 2015 21:59 Maenander wrote: From all accounts it seems like the Turkish military only waited for a chance to down a Russian fighter. Let's be realistic, no other NATO country would have shot down a Russian plane over a minor violation like that. Seems like Erdogan is not amused that all of his schemes for Syria went to hell. To be fair, Turkey and Russia have squabbled over bullshit like this for decades. But I agree with your assessment. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22675 Posts
On November 24 2015 21:59 Maenander wrote: From all accounts it seems like the Turkish military only waited for a chance to down a Russian fighter. Let's be realistic, no other NATO country would have shot down a Russian plane over a minor violation like that. Seems like Erdogan is not amused that all of his schemes for Syria went to hell. In a way I think Putin and Erdogan are very much alike. Both strong leaders who are leading their country with a dictatorish streak. Its not about success or failure in Syria, its about intimidation and appearing strong. Russia has been pushing countries for years by violating airspace with fighters and bombers in northern Europe. They now tried to do it to someone who will not just sit back and be slightly annoyed. Turkey will hit back when confronted with a bully. If England started to repeatedly flying bombers over Russia do you think Putin would ignore it or do you think he would shoot one down at some point as well? | ||
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Disregard
China10252 Posts
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Disregard
China10252 Posts
On November 24 2015 22:11 Gorsameth wrote: In a way I think Putin and Erdogan are very much alike. Both strong leaders who are leading their country with a dictatorish streak. Its not about success or failure in Syria, its about intimidation and appearing strong. Russia has been pushing countries for years by violating airspace with fighters and bombers in northern Europe. They now tried to do it to someone who will not just sit back and be slightly annoyed. Turkey will hit back when confronted with a bully. If England started to repeatedly flying bombers over Russia do you think Putin would ignore it or do you think he would shoot one down at some point as well? In terms of overall power and control, Putin is on another level. | ||
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RvB
Netherlands6325 Posts
President Vladimir Putin accused Turkey of being accomplices of terrorism for shooting down a Russian warplane in Syria, warning of “very serious consequences” for relations. “We understand that everyone has their own interests but we won’t allow such crimes to take place,” Putin said at talks with Jordanian King Abdullah in Sochi. “We received a stab in the back from accomplices of terrorism.” Putin spoke after Turkey said two F-16 jets shot down a Russian warplane that violated its airspace near the border with northwestern Syria, roiling global markets and marking the first direct clash between foreign powers embroiled in the civil war. Russia’s Defense Ministry denied the plane had ever crossed the border and said it may have been hit by ground fire. Turkey’s action is the first time in decades that a member of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization has downed a Russian military aircraft. Ambassadors of the 28 NATO member states are to meet at 5 p.m. Tuesday in Brussels at Turkey’s request to discuss the incident, the military alliance said in a statement. www.bloomberg.com | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
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