In Libya, Gadhafi's ground forces recaptured a strategic oil town Wednesday and moved within striking distance of another major eastern city, nearly reversing the gains rebels made since international airstrikes began.
Rebels pleaded for more help, while a senior U.S. intelligence official said government forces are making themselves harder to target by abandoning tanks for civilian "battle wagons": minivans, sedans and SUVs with makeshift armaments.
The change not only makes it harder to distinguish Gadhafi's forces from the rebels, it also requires less logistical support, the official said on condition of anonymity.
The official said airstrikes have degraded Gadhafi's forces since they were launched March 19, but the regime forces still outmatch those of the opposition "by far," and few members of Gadhafi's military have defected lately.
It had taken more than five days of allied bombardment to destroy government tanks and artillery in the strategic town of Ajdabiya before rebels rushed in and chased Gadhafi's troops 200 miles west in a two-day dash along the coast.
Two days later the rebels have been pushed back to close to where they started.
The Libyan army first ambushed the chaotic caravan of volunteers, supporters and bystanders outside Gadhafi's hometown of Sirte, then outflanked them through the desert, a maneuver requiring the sort of discipline the rag-tag rebels lack.
The towns of Nawfaliyah, Bin Jawwad and Ras Lanouf, a key oil port, fell in quick succession to the lightning government counterstrike.
If George Bush was still president, I think we all know how most people would think of this war, but you know what else would be true? Qaddafi wouldn't still be this strong because Bush would have bombed the ever-loving shit out of Muammar and not stopped until he was dead or begged us to let him surrender.
Obama: Qaddafi has to go. Military: Qaddafi isn't on the target list. Obama: We're just making sure Qaddafi can't massacre civilians. Military: We're trying to help them take over the country from Qaddafi. Obama: This will last days, not weeks. Military: This will last months, not weeks. Defense Secretary Gates: There is no time limit. Obama: We won't be sending troops. News: CIA linking up with rebels. Obama: Qaddafi must go. News: Qaddafi successfully counterattacks.
Next Step: ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Looks like we've rashly got ourselves into a war that is rapidly turning dumb; great job, not-that-retard-Bush Obama!
Guess what guys, this is what happens when you elect to the presidency a guy with no experience who came out nowhere just because he talked slick and you were really pissed at George Bush!
We're stuck with for who knows how long now, who knows what "effort" we'll have to make, and other than in money we certainly won't pay for it; Libyans will. They had enough and they want to be free and we said we'd help them and they're counting on that help but we won't help them enough for them to win I think. It's a damn cruel joke, the world.
3.) As has been brought up before, extreme conditions breed extremists. Give them freedom and jobs and an economy where their leader/his family/friends don't steal all of their wealth, and chances are, the extremism will lose it's support.
Well Libya was already one of the wealthiest per capita nations in Africa. Lets not go comparing these people to Afghanis when they have 10 times the wealth.
Political groups and activists are angry about the law which bans strikes, protests, demonstrations and sit-ins which interrupt private or state-owned businesses and carry a maximum sentence of one year in prison with fines of up to LE500, 000 to anyone who calls for or incites these actions.
So how long until the UN invades Egypt to remove the new puppet government that infringes on peoples rights by not allowing protests or free speech? Oh wait , not enough oil in Egypt.
There are plenty of countries were striking and some other stuff like that is actually illegal or needs state permition. Try again.
Judging Egypt now is also just plain retarded, after/if they have free elections you can judge, right now the country must stabilize a little to make this possible. Try again.
On March 31 2011 17:58 Velr wrote: There are plenty of countries were striking and some other stuff like that is actually illegal or needs state permition. Try again.
Judging Egypt now is also just plain retarded, after/if they have free elections you can judge, right now the country must stabilize a little to make this possible. Try again.
I don't think we will see elections in Egypt for a long long time. The military leaders will continue to stay in power whilst slowly cracking down on peoples rights in Egypt.
Maybe i wasn't making my self clear enough but it should be obvious to anyone where Egypt is headed under it's new leaders.
When I found out the in the vast majority of countries the central bank that actually "prints" the money is a private asset. So when the country needs more money, it asks the central bank to print it, the bank prints it and lends it to the country with some interest (Discount rate). And this is the best business possible in the world.
jeeeze. blue where are you with the news updates. i always scroll this thread looking for the important updates, instead, i find a bunch of conspiracy theorists and trolls.
On March 31 2011 21:26 apalemorning wrote: jeeeze. blue where are you with the news updates. i always scroll this thread looking for the important updates, instead, i find a bunch of conspiracy theorists and trolls.
If you want regular updates I recommend going to al jazeera's website and follow it trough there.
anyway 2 vids of Belgian planes bombing stuff:
and a vid about the experiences of 4 new york times journalists
Lindsay Graham, an influential Republican senator on the Armed Forces Committee, has weighed in with CNN on the flurry of recent developments in Libya.
Graham says there are "some very sophisticated people" leading the opposition in Libya and that he does not fear the country risks turning into an "al-Qaeda-driven state" if the rebels win:
"You know, to be honest with you, I'm sure there are probably some people under the banner of opposition that are - that may have some al-Qaeda sympathies, but I have zero concern about this turning into an al Qaeda-driven state; and the Libyan people are not going to replace Gadhafi to be run by al Qaeda.
The US mission in Libya needs to be aimed more specifically at taking Gaddafi out of power by force, Graham said, using overwhelming airpower - specifically A-10 and AC-130 warplanes. He also said he considers Gaddafi an "unlawful enemy combatant."
2:12pm
NATO is holding a press conference to brief reporters on their campaign in Libya - Operation Unified Protector. Admiral Giampaolo Di Paola, the chariman of NATO's military committee, just finished speaking, and soon we'll hear from Lieutenant General Charles Bouchard, who is commanding the operation itself.
On March 31 2011 13:48 DeepElemBlues wrote: Looks like we've rashly got ourselves into a war that is rapidly turning dumb; great job, not-that-retard-Bush Obama!
Guess what guys, this is what happens when you elect to the presidency a guy with no experience who came out nowhere just because he talked slick and you were really pissed at George Bush!
Wait, do you actually think that it was Obama's decision (like he's the US king or something) and that it was a spontaneous dumb mistake? Do you actually think that you see this situation in a clearer way than the Pentagon, government heads and think tanks do?
Also, about the 1000 rebels, that's quite hard to tell... where could he have gotten such info? I mean... did he counted them or something? The Rebel Council has already a lot of trouble controlling them, how could a reporter have a precise number?
apparently we are supporting a rebellion with less than a thousand troops
Yes less than a thousand TROOPS, there are much more people fighting that aren't considered soldiers. If there wasn't this would have been over from the start.
I`ve said maybe 10 times in this thread, that I`ve been in Libya. I`ve been in Bengazi and Adjadabia mostly, but I`ve spent some time in Tripoli too. For the 5-6 months I`ve been there and Libya is not police state lol. Just a normal country.
What the fuck does a police state look like that would be immediately visible to a random tourist? What the fuck? Its not like I could go to 1990s Afghanistan, go to Kabul and just immediately see the regime commit mass genocide.
Did you think that if a random tourist went to a police state, they would just see g-men shooting people on the street? And only then, its a police state?
you can definately tell if something is wrong; people are different. i would know, i lived in the red era.
ps: and 5 - 6 months =/= immediately
So your status of being born in 1980s communist country gives you the ability to instantly deduce a countries level of corruption and human rights abuses? Amazing, would have been nice to know that earlier.
I was born in 1980s communist China, and I hereby decleare Libya a police state k bro? argument over.
you dont even deserve a reply because your missing the point entirely.
You just replied bro.
to live months/years in the middle of those people, to learn their language, their customs, its not the same thig as looking at a snapshot and commenting on it. (like you make it out to be)
No, it isn't the same thing. I am saying Anecdotal evidence from a single foreigner is an insufficient judge of human rights abuses.
it doesnt matter if you dont know the whole population personally. its a statistic. statistics are made on a very small group of people but they do end up representing a whole country. sure you might say its subjective but you cant say that its wrong.
So what statistic are you referring to? Are you saying you have a statistic proving that Libya neither a brutal dictatorship nor/or a egregious violator of human rights?
Not gonna lie, even if we had intel pretty much *proving* that they have ties to alqaeda/terrorists/etc, I'd still be all for what we did. Couple reasons for that. 1.) Everyone deserves a chance to live freely. 2.) Hindsight is 20/20. If you went into every decision too worried about one possible outcome, you'd never do anything in life. 3.) As has been brought up before, extreme conditions breed extremists. Give them freedom and jobs and an economy where their leader/his family/friends don't steal all of their wealth, and chances are, the extremism will lose it's support.
Gaddafi is better then islamists, simply because islamists are as bad as it gets, bottom of the barrel.
If the islamists have the upperhand in the revolution then this has just become an unwinnable war. Gaddafi wins, we lose. Islamists win, we lose.
Freedom, jobs, economy, all easier said then done.
The world is rapidly becoming more and more global and the middle-east is rapidly becoming more useless. What purpose does it's population serve?
One half rejects the world and the other half is raised unable to compete with the world because their leaders are incompetent dictators who's only achievement has been to be born on top of oil. Imagine the current scenario and fast forward 30 years when the oil is starting to run out, what will be left off these countries? Most of them will see their entire export literally dry up.
Freedom? How can they achieve that in an area covered with conservatives who's idea of freedom is putting a gun to a persons head and asking wich mosque they want to pray in?
Jobs? With what? Shovelling sand? No offense but there really isn't anything in the middle-east that people want. The population isn't highly educated, it's regimes are highly oppressive and no normal business will want to go there, only the ones that can pay bribes. They have oil and they have over-educated people who will take their chances in the west where they get more money and don't have a government that wants to kill them if they step out of line.
Their economies are entirely oil based. You have dellusional ideas like building a Las Vegas with islamic law as overseer.
What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas? What happens in Dubai stay in Dubai, especially if you kiss in public in wich case you can stay in a Dubai prison for a long while.
It's not like it's easy to just decide to bump up the economy. In the middle-east you first have to get past the vast majority that wants to burn bridges and cross rivers. The people in the middle east currently do not have a mentality that will allow their society to prosper, it's that simple.
Now when i say "the people" i have to point out that it's the majority, not every single last person because as per usual when dealing with the middle east, the accusation of racism is always around the corner.
I have said it before and i believe it remains true. Unless an Ataturk-esque figure steps forward and takes control and shoves the western way down the people's throat, the middle-east isn't going off the fast-track to poverty-land, estimated date of arrival 2041.
Dubai indeed lives off it's oil, although I've noticed in my travels there over the years that it's becoming more and more focused towards mainstream-tourism. The sheiks are still uneducated fools with alot of oil money, though... but it's a beacon of light in a pretty grim part of the world.
A rebel spokesman said pro-Gaddafi forces shelled Misurata on Thursday, leaving dozens of civilians dead in the past few days when their homes were hit.
"Massacres are taking place in Misrata," the rebel spokesman, called Sami, told Reuters by telephone.
"Artillery bombardment resumed this morning and is still going on. The [pro-Gaddafi] brigades could not enter the town but they are surrounding it.
"Twenty civilians were killed yesterday after their houses were hit by bombardments. Many people were wounded."
Residents say that figure added to the dozens who have been killed in fighting over the past 10 days.
Meanwhile, a NATO commander on Thursday said the bloc was taking seriously reports of civilian casualties in coalition air raids over Libya.
A top Vatican official citing reliable sources in close contact with residents told Reuters at least 40 civilians have been killed in air strikes over Tripoli.
Seems like the no fly zone is actually resulting in higher civilian casualties than the civil war itself. It also seems the rebel cries of 'massacre' are entirely sensational.
Dubai indeed lives off it's oil, although I've noticed in my travels there over the years that it's becoming more and more focused towards mainstream-tourism. The sheiks are still uneducated fools with alot of oil money, though... but it's a beacon of light in a pretty grim part of the world.
A beacon of light is an over-statement. It's better then pumping all that money into a bigger plane for your family that's for sure, but it's a naieve idea that won't work.
It's nice to see them spend some money on developing an alternative future but the way they are going at it is bound to fail. They can't be accused of ego-spending but it's not unfair to call them stupid in how they are spending the money.
Nobody looks at Vegas and says "you know what i am missing? Sharia law"
As for Libya itself, the situation is proving to be a war between the people not a war of dictator vs people. I don't think it's unfair to conclude that a good chunk of the Libyans is in support of Gaddafi.
Best choice would have been to stay out, best option at this point might be to divide the country in half between east and west. If the rebels win i expect a massacre and if Gaddafi wins i expect the same.
Clearly the result of getting involved before really thinking about what we were getting into.
On April 01 2011 05:36 Aurocaido wrote: Seems like the no fly zone is actually resulting in higher civilian casualties than the civil war itself. It also seems the rebel cries of 'massacre' are entirely sensational.
Erm, you think the civil war caused 40 casualties tops...? You think Ghadaffi would've killed 40 people tops in Benghazi?
On April 01 2011 07:50 zalz wrote: As for Libya itself, the situation is proving to be a war between the people not a war of dictator vs people. I don't think it's unfair to conclude that a good chunk of the Libyans is in support of Gaddafi
I don't understand, how do you conclude this? Having to hire hundreds of mercenaries was just because... erm, why? Really, I've been following the situation and I don't see how it is proof that a good chunk is in favor of Ghadaffi.
apparently we are supporting a rebellion with less than a thousand troops
Yes less than a thousand TROOPS, there are much more people fighting that aren't considered soldiers. If there wasn't this would have been over from the start.
Gaddafi is better then islamists, simply because islamists are as bad as it gets, bottom of the barrel.
If the islamists have the upperhand in the revolution then this has just become an unwinnable war. Gaddafi wins, we lose. Islamists win, we lose.
Freedom, jobs, economy, all easier said then done.
The world is rapidly becoming more and more global and the middle-east is rapidly becoming more useless. What purpose does it's population serve?
One half rejects the world and the other half is raised unable to compete with the world because their leaders are incompetent dictators who's only achievement has been to be born on top of oil. Imagine the current scenario and fast forward 30 years when the oil is starting to run out, what will be left off these countries? Most of them will see their entire export literally dry up.
Freedom? How can they achieve that in an area covered with conservatives who's idea of freedom is putting a gun to a persons head and asking wich mosque they want to pray in?
Jobs? With what? Shovelling sand? No offense but there really isn't anything in the middle-east that people want. The population isn't highly educated, it's regimes are highly oppressive and no normal business will want to go there, only the ones that can pay bribes. They have oil and they have over-educated people who will take their chances in the west where they get more money and don't have a government that wants to kill them if they step out of line.
Their economies are entirely oil based. You have dellusional ideas like building a Las Vegas with islamic law as overseer.
What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas? What happens in Dubai stay in Dubai, especially if you kiss in public in wich case you can stay in a Dubai prison for a long while.
It's not like it's easy to just decide to bump up the economy. In the middle-east you first have to get past the vast majority that wants to burn bridges and cross rivers. The people in the middle east currently do not have a mentality that will allow their society to prosper, it's that simple.
Now when i say "the people" i have to point out that it's the majority, not every single last person because as per usual when dealing with the middle east, the accusation of racism is always around the corner.
I have said it before and i believe it remains true. Unless an Ataturk-esque figure steps forward and takes control and shoves the western way down the people's throat, the middle-east isn't going off the fast-track to poverty-land, estimated date of arrival 2041.
no extremists are as bad as it gets
why do you have a idea why islamists in general are bad? there is many different sects of islam with large differing ideals one muslim may have different laws then next. perhaps you should not be so quick to think all of islam is bad
many of your ideas are untrue as much as it is anti-islamic and some of these ideas came from people who hate islam
if you do a bit of research, you will find that many countries in the middle east has christians/jews (including iran who has around 2% non-muslim minority) freedom is a common ideal amongst all humans
also, your right that most countries have oil-based economy but your notion that this cannot change within a few decades shows that you have no idea of economics(also what are you trying to say? i dont see the points in your facts)
apparently we are supporting a rebellion with less than a thousand troops
Yes less than a thousand TROOPS, there are much more people fighting that aren't considered soldiers. If there wasn't this would have been over from the start.
the allied airstrikes might have helped..
if you follow the links the statistics came from a news reporter i wonder how he could have found that estimate maybe a poll on cnn perhaps
EPT![[image loading]](http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/6004/elberet545.39/0_591a1_98e1294c_XL.jpg)
