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Libyan Uprising - Page 59

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Off topic discussion and argumentative back and forth will not be tolerated.
oldahe
Profile Joined May 2010
Austria534 Posts
March 19 2011 15:10 GMT
#1161
Gadaffi is aiming for the 1vs7 insane ai achievement....

User was warned for this post
Mofisto
Profile Joined October 2010
United Kingdom585 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-19 15:16:48
March 19 2011 15:15 GMT
#1162
On March 20 2011 00:10 oldahe wrote:
Gadaffi is aiming for the 1vs7 insane ai achievement....



Not the place for bad taste jokes. Hardly appropriate is it?

Back to Libya. Latest news as of 15 mins ago:

World leaders have announced immediate military action to protect civilians in Libya.
As combat rages between Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi's forces and rebel fighters, Nicolas Sarkozy, the French President, confirmed his nation's air force was already in the air over Libya.
Mr Sarkozy, speaking after an emergency summit in Paris, said leaders had agreed "as of now" to use "all the necessary means" to prevent further bloodshed.
David Cameron, the Prime Minister, said after the summit: "The time for action has come. We cannot allow the slaughter of civilians to continue."


"Speed has never killed anyone. Suddenly becoming stationary, that's what gets you."
Punkstar
Profile Joined July 2010
Slovakia522 Posts
March 19 2011 15:29 GMT
#1163
So it seems that it has started, French fighters have entered Libyan airspace :s
When in doubt, just drone up.
xarthaz
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
1704 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-19 15:40:03
March 19 2011 15:38 GMT
#1164
On March 20 2011 00:15 Mofisto wrote:

Show nested quote +
World leaders have announced immediate military action to protect civilians in Libya.
As combat rages between Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi's forces and rebel fighters, Nicolas Sarkozy, the French President, confirmed his nation's air force was already in the air over Libya.
Mr Sarkozy, speaking after an emergency summit in Paris, said leaders had agreed "as of now" to use "all the necessary means" to prevent further bloodshed.
David Cameron, the Prime Minister, said after the summit: "The time for action has come. We cannot allow the slaughter of civilians to continue."



So typical. "Lets intervene and increase the amount of violence done to prevent more violence from being done". As if the Libyans themselves didnt have enough guns to kill each other with. Just as in all the other interventionist wars, this will only make the situation worse and prevent a political natural equilibrium within the country from forming. But of course, there has to to be some use of the aggressive weaponry in foreign wars, otherwise the money spent on it would be considered useless.
Aah thats the stuff..
Nitro68
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
France470 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-19 16:54:07
March 19 2011 16:49 GMT
#1165
According to the France's defense minister there are 10 french fighter-bombers above Libya at the moment (Rafale + Mirage 2000) + AWACS and refueling aircrafts.

No strike at the moment.

The AWACS is monitoring the situation since a few days.

2 AA fregate in the sea near Libya.

The aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle will leave Toulon tomorrow.
whiteguycash
Profile Joined April 2010
United States476 Posts
March 19 2011 16:58 GMT
#1166
I support France's Actions against the criminal against humanity, Muammar Muhammad al-Gaddafi.

I am slightly ashamed that the United States was not at the forefront of this operation to preserve lives of Citizens who want the freedom to decide how to live their lives.
pylonsalad
Profile Joined January 2010
Canada649 Posts
March 19 2011 16:58 GMT
#1167
On March 20 2011 00:38 xarthaz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 20 2011 00:15 Mofisto wrote:

World leaders have announced immediate military action to protect civilians in Libya.
As combat rages between Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi's forces and rebel fighters, Nicolas Sarkozy, the French President, confirmed his nation's air force was already in the air over Libya.
Mr Sarkozy, speaking after an emergency summit in Paris, said leaders had agreed "as of now" to use "all the necessary means" to prevent further bloodshed.
David Cameron, the Prime Minister, said after the summit: "The time for action has come. We cannot allow the slaughter of civilians to continue."



So typical. "Lets intervene and increase the amount of violence done to prevent more violence from being done". As if the Libyans themselves didnt have enough guns to kill each other with. Just as in all the other interventionist wars, this will only make the situation worse and prevent a political natural equilibrium within the country from forming. But of course, there has to to be some use of the aggressive weaponry in foreign wars, otherwise the money spent on it would be considered useless.


I guess the US shouldn't have intervened in WWII then. Jesus, this kind of argument ignores any moral responsibility for the formation of the UN in the first place. Natural equilibrium? We are talking about one side with modern military training and hardware and the resources of a relatively rich state versus civilians with no training and little weaponry. You don't mind the massacre that's going to happen if no one bullies the bully?
Weedk
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States507 Posts
March 19 2011 17:00 GMT
#1168
On March 20 2011 01:58 whiteguycash wrote:
I support France's Actions against the criminal against humanity, Muammar Muhammad al-Gaddafi.

I am slightly ashamed that the United States was not at the forefront of this operation to preserve lives of Citizens who want the freedom to decide how to live their lives.



Mind you that the United States is currently embroiled in 2 wars in the Middle East. It's understandable that they hesitate on taking action.
Ghad
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Norway2551 Posts
March 19 2011 17:01 GMT
#1169
Apparently the first attack has been made by a french plane against a Libyan vehicle.
forgottendreams: One underage girl, two drunk guys, one gogo dancer and starcraft 2. Apparently just another day in Europe.
Nitro68
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
France470 Posts
March 19 2011 17:03 GMT
#1170
First strike by french fighter against a ground vehicle, according to "Le Monde". No more precision atm.
Steppen_Wolf
Profile Joined March 2011
Colombia23 Posts
March 19 2011 17:03 GMT
#1171
I think the issue here is how to stop the violence without taking down Gaddafi (goes beyond UN mandate).

The rebels certainly won't accept such a murderer as their leader, only chance seems to be that Gaddafi gets a moment of sanity and decides to step down in exchange for inmunity.
Grettin
Profile Joined April 2010
42381 Posts
March 19 2011 17:04 GMT
#1172
"1703: A French warplane fired its first shot in Libya at 1445 GMT, the Defence Ministry in Paris confirms."
"If I had force-fields in Brood War, I'd never lose." -Bisu
ManyCookies
Profile Joined December 2010
1164 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-19 17:13:50
March 19 2011 17:07 GMT
#1173
On March 20 2011 01:58 pylonsalad wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 20 2011 00:38 xarthaz wrote:


So typical. "Lets intervene and increase the amount of violence done to prevent more violence from being done". As if the Libyans themselves didnt have enough guns to kill each other with. Just as in all the other interventionist wars, this will only make the situation worse and prevent a political natural equilibrium within the country from forming. But of course, there has to to be some use of the aggressive weaponry in foreign wars, otherwise the money spent on it would be considered useless.


I guess the US shouldn't have intervened in WWII then. Jesus, this kind of argument ignores any moral responsibility for the formation of the UN in the first place. Natural equilibrium? We are talking about one side with modern military training and hardware and the resources of a relatively rich state versus civilians with no training and little weaponry. You don't mind the massacre that's going to happen if no one bullies the bully?[/QUOTE]

In fairness to xarth, the rebels aren't exactly a scrappy civilian fighting force. They do have weaponry, military organization, and access to fighters/bombers/tanks. But regardless, the concept of a natural political equilibrium is silly in a military situation like this.




I think the issue here is how to stop the violence without taking down Gaddafi (goes beyond UN mandate).


Gaddafi lost legitimacy in the U.N when he began to use lethal force against protesters. The main issue is removing him while minimizing the instability that follows.
xarthaz
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
1704 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-19 17:20:30
March 19 2011 17:10 GMT
#1174
On March 20 2011 01:58 pylonsalad wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 20 2011 00:38 xarthaz wrote:
On March 20 2011 00:15 Mofisto wrote:

World leaders have announced immediate military action to protect civilians in Libya.
As combat rages between Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi's forces and rebel fighters, Nicolas Sarkozy, the French President, confirmed his nation's air force was already in the air over Libya.
Mr Sarkozy, speaking after an emergency summit in Paris, said leaders had agreed "as of now" to use "all the necessary means" to prevent further bloodshed.
David Cameron, the Prime Minister, said after the summit: "The time for action has come. We cannot allow the slaughter of civilians to continue."



So typical. "Lets intervene and increase the amount of violence done to prevent more violence from being done". As if the Libyans themselves didnt have enough guns to kill each other with. Just as in all the other interventionist wars, this will only make the situation worse and prevent a political natural equilibrium within the country from forming. But of course, there has to to be some use of the aggressive weaponry in foreign wars, otherwise the money spent on it would be considered useless.


I guess the US shouldn't have intervened in WWII then. Jesus, this kind of argument ignores any moral responsibility for the formation of the UN in the first place. Natural equilibrium? We are talking about one side with modern military training and hardware and the resources of a relatively rich state versus civilians with no training and little weaponry. You don't mind the massacre that's going to happen if no one bullies the bully?
There will be no massacre if rebels dissolved themselves(or the current state administration, whichever feels the weaker). A bully can never be gotten rid of, thats a fact of life. There is the strongest organisation of violence in any given area, and they bully others. The would be rebel enforced state would be no different, perhaps other than slight ideological differences, the practical means of conducting policy is the same.

And yes(though this is a tangent), there wouldve been much less violence in WW2 absent US intervention. In fact there would never have been a world war, neither the first nor the second one if foreign intervention were avoided. Though the colors on the flags of the countries mightve differed somewhat from what they turned out to be, that is purely a nationalist argument.
Aah thats the stuff..
Blix
Profile Joined September 2010
Netherlands873 Posts
March 19 2011 17:18 GMT
#1175
On March 20 2011 02:10 xarthaz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 20 2011 01:58 pylonsalad wrote:
On March 20 2011 00:38 xarthaz wrote:
On March 20 2011 00:15 Mofisto wrote:

World leaders have announced immediate military action to protect civilians in Libya.
As combat rages between Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi's forces and rebel fighters, Nicolas Sarkozy, the French President, confirmed his nation's air force was already in the air over Libya.
Mr Sarkozy, speaking after an emergency summit in Paris, said leaders had agreed "as of now" to use "all the necessary means" to prevent further bloodshed.
David Cameron, the Prime Minister, said after the summit: "The time for action has come. We cannot allow the slaughter of civilians to continue."



So typical. "Lets intervene and increase the amount of violence done to prevent more violence from being done". As if the Libyans themselves didnt have enough guns to kill each other with. Just as in all the other interventionist wars, this will only make the situation worse and prevent a political natural equilibrium within the country from forming. But of course, there has to to be some use of the aggressive weaponry in foreign wars, otherwise the money spent on it would be considered useless.


I guess the US shouldn't have intervened in WWII then. Jesus, this kind of argument ignores any moral responsibility for the formation of the UN in the first place. Natural equilibrium? We are talking about one side with modern military training and hardware and the resources of a relatively rich state versus civilians with no training and little weaponry. You don't mind the massacre that's going to happen if no one bullies the bully?
There will be no massacre if rebels dissolved themselves(or the current state administration, whichever feels the weaker). A bully can never be gotten rid of, thats a fact of life. There is the strongest organisation of violence in any given area, and they bully others. The would be rebel enforced state would be no different, perhaps other than slight ideological differences, the practical means of conducting policy is the same.

And yes, there wouldve been much less violence in WW2 absent US intervention. Though the colors on the flags of the countries mightve differed somewhat from what they turned out to be, that is purely a nationalist argument.


I'd say the difference between germany then and now is a little bit more than the color of the flag...
Conquer yourself not the world. - Descartes
Steppen_Wolf
Profile Joined March 2011
Colombia23 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-19 17:20:19
March 19 2011 17:19 GMT
#1176
And yes, there wouldve been much less violence in WW2 absent US intervention. Though the colors on the flags of the countries mightve differed somewhat from what they turned out to be, that is purely a nationalist argument.


Yeah, I'm sure that if the US doesn't interviene and the nazis had won and implemented Generalplan Ost (the genocide of almost all the people of Eastern Europe) there would have been less violence in the end.

The same way peace will prevail if they let Gaddafi's forces into Benghazi and slaughter fighters and innocents alike. Sure.
ManyCookies
Profile Joined December 2010
1164 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-19 17:28:26
March 19 2011 17:22 GMT
#1177
There will be no massacre if rebels dissolved themselves.


I could be incorrect, but I believe the rebels began organization after Gaddafi's violent reaction to the protests. And judging from Gaddafi's actions, I think it's quite naive to assume that absolutely no consequences would incur for the rebels if they surrendered.


And yes(though this is a tangent), there wouldve been much less violence in WW2 absent US intervention. In fact there would never have been a world war, neither the first nor the second one if foreign intervention were avoided. Though the colors on the flags of the countries mightve differed somewhat from what they turned out to be, that is purely a nationalist argument.


You're assuming that the end-game of all confrontations is initial causality count, ignoring the implications of one country taking over another. Who is to judge that Germany, or England, or America, or any given one country has legitimacy to rule over everything? Do you think an aggressive state willing to take military action to spread their power would treat Europe fairly and justly?
xarthaz
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
1704 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-19 17:41:22
March 19 2011 17:26 GMT
#1178
Yes, those(violence, bloodshed) are the forseeable consequences of challenging the rules of those in power. And the more they are challenged, the more bloodshed is to be expected. Which is my point, to show the fallacy of Sarkozys claims.

You're assuming that the end-game of all confrontations is initial causality count, ignoring the implications of one country taking over another. Who is to judge that Germany, or England, or America, or any given one country has legitimacy to rule over everything? Do you think an aggressive state willing to take military action to spread their power would treat Europe fairly and justly?
Indeed this is completely subjective and nationalist(fairness,justness,legitimacy), hence pointless to argue upon. Not everyone likes the same ice cream flavour.
Alright, then who decides the completely subjective notions of fairness and justness in a country? And what should be done when one party thinks (not necessarily is, but thinks) that the other is not complying with the general sense of action in a country?
The organisation with the biggest guns make the rules. Kind of the ABC of politics.If some outside party doesnt like it, they can try infiltrating the organisation(democracy), bribing it(lobbying), overthrowing it(violence, bloodshed involved) etc
Aah thats the stuff..
Mofisto
Profile Joined October 2010
United Kingdom585 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-19 17:32:09
March 19 2011 17:27 GMT
#1179
Destruction of vehicle by french fighter confirmed


17.09 Spokesman for the French military confirms French aircraft destroyed ground vehicle in first attack


Also reports of libyan military attacking other targets

Multiple reports that Gaddafi troops are attacking Zintan


Cant find anymore details on this. Will post back if i find something
"Speed has never killed anyone. Suddenly becoming stationary, that's what gets you."
ManyCookies
Profile Joined December 2010
1164 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-19 17:38:18
March 19 2011 17:32 GMT
#1180
On March 20 2011 02:26 xarthaz wrote:
Yes, those are the forseeable consequences of challenging the rules of those in power. And the more they are challenged, the more bloodshed is to be expected. Which is my point, to show the fallacy of Sarkozys claims.


But what gives legitimacy to a ruler, the power to control millions of people? Why is he necessarily more justified in his actions than the rebels?

Indeed this is completely subjective and nationalist(fairness,justness,legitimacy), hence pointless to argue upon. Not everyone likes the same ice cream flavour.


Alright, then who decides the completely subjective notions of fairness and justness in a country? And what should be done when one party thinks (not necessarily is, but thinks) that the other is not complying with these notions?



On March 20 2011 02:27 Mofisto wrote:
Destruction of vehicle by french fighter confirmed

Show nested quote +

17.09 Spokesman for the French military confirms French aircraft destroyed ground vehicle in first attack


Also reports of libyan military attacking other targets

Show nested quote +
Multiple reports that Gaddafi troops are attacking Zintan


Cant find anymore details on this. Will post back if i find something


One vehicle? That seems rather small scale for a first strike.
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