On September 03 2011 01:45 Reedjr wrote: Or there's another way to look at it:
Geyser sees a news article
Geyser sees something he disagrees with
Geyser experiences cognitive dissonance
The article must be wrong!
Seriously, you cannot dismiss something against your view out of hand just because of an opinion. Yes, it might be dangerous to assault a bodyguard (sexually or not) unless if you had, say, hundreds of other body guards. And the ability to make the victim's family disappear, which was the reason many of these bodyguards joined in the first place.
Unsubstantiated hearsay, all of that. By your logic this is no better.
On September 02 2011 21:31 Pika Chu wrote: Actually China and Russia paid the price by simply staying out during the ONU vote. There are complicated matters inside, and knowing both Russia and China, they don't do free things or get involved in any way where they don't have an interest.
You do realize that's an order of magnitude less costly than providing a no-fly zone and air support, right?
Everybody in afganistan : Giant gas main from Kazakhstan
The one that was never built and only existed in Michael Moore's mind?
My POV is every "modern" war leaded by a country is always for a oil/richness purpose, never for "democracy" or "Saving the people".
Even if that was the case, it's pretty callous not to care that people were saved or that they have shown by their words and acts that they want freedom.
Stop that madness! The Libyan people deserve respect, respect for sovereignty," Chavez said Thursday in a telephone conversation with Venezuelan state television.
The president advocated a peace commission to negotiate a solution to the crisis in Libya, where confrontations continue between NATO-backed insurgents and forces loyal to leader Muammar Gaddafi.
I find it interesting that there has been no Libyan opposition to NATO except from Qaddafi forces - very understandably - yet people like Hugo Chavez and many posters here presume to speak for them and assume that they are opposed to NATO.
At best, they will tell us we don't know, not even understanding that that position undermines their own expressed opinions as to what the Libyan people really think.
Let's consider the evidence:
Libyans revolted against Qaddafi.
When NATO intervened, there were street demonstrations in support of NATO.
All pro-Qaddafi street demonstration locations, particularly Tripoli, witnessed huge outpourings of common people into the streets celebrating the rebels taking control.
It is well-documented that Qaddafi, like most dictators, pays and/or bullies people to show up as "demonstrators" supporting the regime.
Since the NATO intervention, there has been no discernible opposition expressed by the Libyan people to that intervention.
All the evidence of the Libyan people's own actions points to the conclusion that the people of Libya are happy with the NATO intervention precisely because NATO did not try to free the Libyans as if the Libyans couldn't possibly do it themselves; the Libyans asked for help, we provided it, and it was a joint effort to win their freedom.
On September 03 2011 05:50 DeepElemBlues wrote: I find it interesting that there has been no Libyan opposition to NATO except from Qaddafi forces - very understandably - yet people like Hugo Chavez and many posters here presume to speak for them and assume that they are opposed to NATO.
At best, they will tell us we don't know, not even understanding that that position undermines their own expressed opinions as to what the Libyan people really think.
Let's consider the evidence:
Libyans revolted against Qaddafi.
When NATO intervened, there were street demonstrations in support of NATO.
All pro-Qaddafi street demonstration locations, particularly Tripoli, witnessed huge outpourings of common people into the streets celebrating the rebels taking control.
It is well-documented that Qaddafi, like most dictators, pays and/or bullies people to show up as "demonstrators" supporting the regime.
Since the NATO intervention, there has been no discernible opposition expressed by the Libyan people to that intervention.
All the evidence of the Libyan people's own actions points to the conclusion that the people of Libya are happy with the NATO intervention precisely because NATO did not try to free the Libyans as if the Libyans couldn't possibly do it themselves; the Libyans asked for help, we provided it, and it was a joint effort to win their freedom.
"To win their freedom" and to increase our self interests...We have to be objective : we need lybian's oil for our economies. USA provided aircraft carriers from US mediterranean fleet, France and UK provided combat aircrafts, each government taking a part in lybian oil.
The meeting in Paris is just to decide who will get the best part of the lybian's cake. Freedom and safety for lybians? I care. You do aswell. They don't. Our respective government are even good enough for manipulation to find one of their for muslim friendly country since...1947 maybe...
Democacry in this shit? A secondary point to deal with.
EDIT : "Actual" not = "Actuel", in french we tell that a "faux ami", "a false friend"...looks like a word you know in your mother tongue, but it's a trap !
On September 03 2011 05:50 DeepElemBlues wrote: I find it interesting that there has been no Libyan opposition to NATO except from Qaddafi forces - very understandably - yet people like Hugo Chavez and many posters here presume to speak for them and assume that they are opposed to NATO.
At best, they will tell us we don't know, not even understanding that that position undermines their own expressed opinions as to what the Libyan people really think.
Let's consider the evidence:
Libyans revolted against Qaddafi.
When NATO intervened, there were street demonstrations in support of NATO.
All pro-Qaddafi street demonstration locations, particularly Tripoli, witnessed huge outpourings of common people into the streets celebrating the rebels taking control.
It is well-documented that Qaddafi, like most dictators, pays and/or bullies people to show up as "demonstrators" supporting the regime.
Since the NATO intervention, there has been no discernible opposition expressed by the Libyan people to that intervention.
All the evidence of the Libyan people's own actions points to the conclusion that the people of Libya are happy with the NATO intervention precisely because NATO did not try to free the Libyans as if the Libyans couldn't possibly do it themselves; the Libyans asked for help, we provided it, and it was a joint effort to win their freedom.
"To win their freedom" and to increase our self interests...We have to be objective : we need lybian's oil for our economies. USA provided aircraft carriers from US mediterranean fleet, France and UK provided combat aircrafts, each government taking a part in lybian oil.
The actual meeting in Paris is just to decide who will get the best part of the lybian's cake. Freedom and safety for lybians? I care. You do aswell. They don't. Our respective government are good enough for manipulation to find one of their for muslim friendly country since...1947 maybe...
Democacry in this shit? A secondary point to deal with.
Pretty much this. They would never have been involved if not for resources and geo-strategic location and knocking out a long-time thorn. The Lybians don't like NATO. They'd be out of their minds to do so given Libyan history. However, if someone offers help, is one going to reject it? Not really. If Uncle Sam tries to make any stupid moves, expect the Libyans' retaliation, and expect the US propaganda to change the view of them from "heroes" into "terrorists" lol. To say the least, if the new Libyan govt. (hopefully not an Islamist one though that seems like the most possible outcome given the overwhelming leadership and influence by LIFG and AQIM) has Libya's independence and interests in mind before those of foreign companies like before, the US and UK regimes are not going to like that at all.
"To win their freedom" and to increase our self interests...We have to be objective : we need lybian's oil for our economies. USA provided aircraft carriers from US mediterranean fleet, France and UK provided combat aircrafts, each government taking a part in lybian oil.
You're not being objective
The actual meeting in Paris is just to decide who will get the best part of the lybian's cake. Freedom and safety for lybians? I care. You do aswell. They don't. Our respective government are good enough for manipulation to find one of their for muslim friendly country since...1947 maybe...
And you know this because are there...
Democacry in this shit? A secondary point to deal with.
Again because you are there...
I don't understand why you allow your feelings and political explanations to override facts. You automatically assign greater weight to allegedly less morally acceptable causes because it suits your ideology more than any other reason.
It is pretty obvious that the West wants stable governments that aren't crazy and do business fairly and dictatorship these days means instability, craziness, and bad business. So we are very much interested in seeing Libya have a free and fair government in the future.
Otherwise, we might have to do this again! Who wants to do that.
Pretty much this. They would never have been involved if not for resources and geo-strategic location and knocking out a long-time thorn. The Lybians don't like NATO. They'd be out of their minds to do so given Libyan history. However, if someone offers help, is one going to reject it? Not really.
Here we go again, someone has taken out their crystal ball and divined that "the Libyans don't like NATO" because uhhhh well because they do. You can believe me.
If Uncle Sam tries to make any stupid moves, expect the Libyans' retaliation, and expect the US propaganda to change the view of them from "heroes" into "terrorists" lol. To say the least, if the new Libyan govt. (hopefully not an Islamist one though that seems like the most possible outcome given the overwhelming leadership and influence by LIFG and AQIM) has Libya's independence and interests in mind before those of foreign companies like before, the US and UK regimes are not going to like that at all.
1) You are of course in a position to speak for the US and UK "regimes" and what they will like or not like in the future 2) You seem to enjoy basing this very authoritative comment on "if" the US does something it has given no indication of doing. Of course, "stupid" is very broad. And that relations between the US and the new government will go negative in a catastrophic fashion, 'because.'
Why don't you just admit that you hope the US gets Libyans angry at them because that's the way you'd prefer things to be.
Wishful thinking and ideologically-driven hostility masquerading as informed commentary, lulz.
What's also funny is that you automatically presume that the interests of the US, UK, presumably France as well, and Libya, are divergent, contradictory, the set of one will harm the set of another, with no evidence of that. Just what exactly are the foreign countries' interests, O Crystal Ball? What are Libya's? What are both sides doing now to pursue those interests? Do you know? No, but you're more than willing to tell us, aren't you...
"To win their freedom" and to increase our self interests...We have to be objective : we need lybian's oil for our economies. USA provided aircraft carriers from US mediterranean fleet, France and UK provided combat aircrafts, each government taking a part in lybian oil.
The actual meeting in Paris is just to decide who will get the best part of the lybian's cake. Freedom and safety for lybians? I care. You do aswell. They don't. Our respective government are good enough for manipulation to find one of their for muslim friendly country since...1947 maybe...
Democacry in this shit? A secondary point to deal with.
Again because you are there...
I don't understand why you allow your feelings and political explanations to override facts. You automatically assign greater weight to allegedly less morally acceptable causes because it suits your ideology more than any other reason.
It is pretty obvious that the West wants stable governments that aren't crazy and do business fairly and dictatorship these days means instability, craziness, and bad business. So we are very much interested in seeing Libya have a free and fair government in the future.
Otherwise, we might have to do this again! Who wants to do that.
Pretty much this. They would never have been involved if not for resources and geo-strategic location and knocking out a long-time thorn. The Lybians don't like NATO. They'd be out of their minds to do so given Libyan history. However, if someone offers help, is one going to reject it? Not really.
Here we go again, someone has taken out their crystal ball and divined that "the Libyans don't like NATO" because uhhhh well because they do. You can believe me.
So, when you make a ludicrous claim that they do like NATO, that's not, as you say it, "taking out a crystal ball". XD What makes you think they like NATO for anymore than their help for the revolutionaries' cause? You've posted a lot of crazy, inane things in this thread, so I'd like to see what you have to say now XD. Humor me.
So, when you make a ludicrous claim that they do like NATO, that's not, as you say it, "taking out a crystal ball". XD
Why is it ludicrous, because you disagree with it?
Want some pictures of Libyans in the street holding up signs thanking NATO?
What makes you think they like NATO for anymore than their help for the revolutionaries' cause?
Who says this isn't enough? As if that isn't enough for Libyans and the West to be friends
You've posted a lot of crazy, inane things in this thread, so I'd like to see what you have to say now XD. Humor me.
Projection is a funny thing, Crystal Ball Man. Still waiting for you to back up anything you've said, instead of just posting up political theory like it's fact. How do you know the things you know?
Like when I say Libyans support NATO's intervention, it's because I've seen things like this, a march in Benghazi:
You've posted a lot of crazy, inane things in this thread, so I'd like to see what you have to say now XD. Humor me.
Projection is a funny thing, Crystal Ball Man. Still waiting for you to back up anything you've said, instead of just posting up political theory like it's fact. How do you know the things you know?
As I said before, if someone offers help, whoever they are, are you going to reject it? A lot of people are a bit suspicious of banks. But if you're going to get a loan from the bank to start up a business, you're going to thank them.
That said, you still have no substantiated anything at all other than saying that because there was a sign rebels holding up thanking NATO for helping them overthrow the government, they apparently completely love and trust NATO. That is about the most absurd stretch I've heard. You're basically saying since the gangsta who has a crackhouse and robs from time to time helped an old lady load some things into her car and the old lady thanks him, then conclusively, the old lady loves and trusts him completely. I hope you realize how absurd that is.
So unless you've gone to Libya and you've asked tens of thousands of people if they like US, UK, France, Italy, etc. and their regimes and policies, your claim is completely unsubstantiated. Keep staring at the crystal ball . If you wish to go on, you may. Comedy's great.
As I said before, if someone offers help, whoever they are, are you going to reject it? A lot of people are a bit suspicious of banks. But if you're going to get a loan from the bank to start up a business, you're going to thank them.
Again, how does this support your opinion
Being a bit suspicious of someone does not mean what you think it means I do not believe
That said, you still have no substantiated anything at all other than saying that because there was a sign rebels holding up thanking NATO for helping them overthrow the government, they apparently completely love and trust NATO. That is about the most absurd stretch I've heard. You're basically saying since the gangsta who has a crackhouse and robs from time to time helped an old lady load some things into her car and the old lady thanks him, then conclusively, the old lady loves and trusts him completely. I hope you realize how absurd that is.
I never said any such thing about either side completely trusting the other one, where are you getting this from
So apparently you demand evidence, and then when evidence is presented, you just disregard it. Are you sure you're not biased, just a little bit maybe?
I hope you realize how what you are saying has little if any connection to the situation and how absurd it is.
You've made it very clear that you view NATO as the crack dealer and that's the way Libyans do/should view them too, and any suggestion that they don't/shouldn't pisses you off, and any evidence that they do like NATO means nothing to you. And any evidence that NATO isn't a crack dealer, we won't go there because I think it might make your head blow off in a cloud of super angry steam.
What is it about Western and non-Westerners finding common ground that makes you so mad?
So unless you've gone to Libya and you've asked tens of thousands of people if they like US, UK, France, Italy, etc. and their regimes and policies, your claim is completely unsubstantiated. Keep staring at the crystal ball . If you wish to go on, you may. Comedy's great.
Oh so now you've stolen my line, and apparently you don't understand that you are no one to speak for Libya either under your standard, so all of your huffing and puffing even according to you means nil
I don't understand why you are trolling in this juvenile and amateurish fashion, do you really think you telling me repeatedly that I am amusingly stupid to you is going to accomplish something?
Sorry my english in not perfect, what do you mean exactly?
Are you present at the meeting in Paris? Are you privy to all the discussions going on there?
As I said before, if someone offers help, whoever they are, are you going to reject it? A lot of people are a bit suspicious of banks. But if you're going to get a loan from the bank to start up a business, you're going to thank them.
Again, how does this support your opinion
Being a bit suspicious of someone does not mean what you think it means I do not believe
That said, you still have no substantiated anything at all other than saying that because there was a sign rebels holding up thanking NATO for helping them overthrow the government, they apparently completely love and trust NATO. That is about the most absurd stretch I've heard. You're basically saying since the gangsta who has a crackhouse and robs from time to time helped an old lady load some things into her car and the old lady thanks him, then conclusively, the old lady loves and trusts him completely. I hope you realize how absurd that is.
I never said any such thing about either side completely trusting the other one, where are you getting this from
So apparently you demand evidence, and then when evidence is presented, you just disregard it. Are you sure you're not biased, just a little bit maybe?
I hope you realize how what you are saying has little if any connection to the situation and how absurd it is.
You've made it very clear that you view NATO as the crack dealer and that's the way Libyans do/should view them too, and any suggestion that they don't/shouldn't pisses you off, and any evidence that they do like NATO means nothing to you.
So unless you've gone to Libya and you've asked tens of thousands of people if they like US, UK, France, Italy, etc. and their regimes and policies, your claim is completely unsubstantiated. Keep staring at the crystal ball . If you wish to go on, you may. Comedy's great.
Oh so now you've stolen my line, and apparently you don't understand that you are no one to speak for Libya either under your standard, so all of your huffing and puffing even according to you means nil
I don't understand why you are trolling in this juvenile and amateurish fashion, do you really think you telling me repeatedly that I am amusingly stupid to you is going to accomplish something?
Sorry my english in not perfect, what do you mean exactly?
Are you present at the meeting in Paris? Are you privy to all the discussions going on there?
Then if you now claim that you do not hold the ludicrous myth that the Libyans apparently totally trust and love NATO, why were you disagreeing with me earlier? Do you love arguing and trolling for the sake of doing so?
On September 03 2011 05:50 DeepElemBlues wrote: I find it interesting that there has been no Libyan opposition to NATO except from Qaddafi forces - very understandably - yet people like Hugo Chavez and many posters here presume to speak for them and assume that they are opposed to NATO.
At best, they will tell us we don't know, not even understanding that that position undermines their own expressed opinions as to what the Libyan people really think.
Let's consider the evidence:
Libyans revolted against Qaddafi.
When NATO intervened, there were street demonstrations in support of NATO.
All pro-Qaddafi street demonstration locations, particularly Tripoli, witnessed huge outpourings of common people into the streets celebrating the rebels taking control.
It is well-documented that Qaddafi, like most dictators, pays and/or bullies people to show up as "demonstrators" supporting the regime.
Since the NATO intervention, there has been no discernible opposition expressed by the Libyan people to that intervention.
All the evidence of the Libyan people's own actions points to the conclusion that the people of Libya are happy with the NATO intervention precisely because NATO did not try to free the Libyans as if the Libyans couldn't possibly do it themselves; the Libyans asked for help, we provided it, and it was a joint effort to win their freedom.
"To win their freedom" and to increase our self interests...We have to be objective : we need lybian's oil for our economies. USA provided aircraft carriers from US mediterranean fleet, France and UK provided combat aircrafts, each government taking a part in lybian oil.
Wasn't Gaddafi gladly giving us oil in the first place? When did we ever have problems securing oil from Libya? Legit question, I was always under the impression it was never an issue.
EPT
