|
On February 11 2011 07:13 Sm3agol wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2011 19:16 TheGiftedApe wrote:
[...]open your mind to any and all possible conclusions. Um, no. If that were the case, then noone would ever get anything done because we'd spend all our time examining random stupidity, lest we be called close minded. Assume false until proved otherwise, not vice-versa.
ummm no, you have completely mis-quoted and misunderstood what I said.
Here is what I said, On February 10 2011 19:16 TheGiftedApe wrote:
your right, it's all a lie, everything is a cover up for a cover story, nothing ever happend. It's good to be skeptical, but blindly believing in a conspiracy theory is even worse than blindly believing the media. Better to do some research and come to your own conclusion based on tangible evidence. Looking at any story from only one perspective or only one side of the viewpoint is the definition of ignorance, open your mind to any and all possible conclusions.
and it was a direct reply to what this person said:
On February 10 2011 19:10 HwangjaeTerran wrote:
Most of history is made up, I have no doubts about it.
After all the winner always writes the history books.
I honestly don't understand people who always buy the official story any more than the most hardcore conspiracy theorists. The whole truth is always somewhere between or then something compeletely different. Most people won't tell you the truth unless it's beneficial to them or they will definitely be caught on a lie. Blind trust in media is the most arrogant thing.
Now if we all thought as you did sm3agol, The earth would still be flat, and we would still be worshiping the sky god of rain and sun and shit. What I am saying is that you need to be able to look at each story from both sides, and come to your own conclusion otherwise you are being ignorant. I'm not saying you must spend 12 years studying each side of an argument, just look at the evidence and come to a conclusion, its not very hard at all, it's called deductive reasoning, I suggest you try it. Of course that is too difficult for you to understand cause you are used to being spoon fed information by bill o'reilly and fox news.
|
All this being said, what is up with these sad sacks of crap know as American citizens, with the tags of RoosterSamurai and Treemonkeys? You should be trying to exonerate your country of wrong-doing, and doing your best to see the good side of what you country did. No, the US is far from perfect, and we fark things up all the time, but for crying aloud, you make me ashamed to be American. You two are actively doing your very best to make your country seem as horrible and pathetic as possible. When confronted with two opposing viewpoints, you invariably take the one that makes your country look the worst.
Take your country location off, that way at least people with think you're just some random US haters not US farking citizens.
I'm ashamed of some of the things our country has done as well, and definitely wish we had handled many things better. But I also believe much of what was done was done in an attempt, perhaps misguided, of doing good. Discuss how we should have handled things better, sure. Discuss current issues and ways you think we are failing and need to change, sure. But actively doing your very best to trash every aspect of our history? Fark you both.
|
On February 11 2011 08:17 TheGiftedApe wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2011 07:13 Sm3agol wrote:On February 10 2011 19:16 TheGiftedApe wrote:
[...]open your mind to any and all possible conclusions. Um, no. If that were the case, then noone would ever get anything done because we'd spend all our time examining random stupidity, lest we be called close minded. Assume false until proved otherwise, not vice-versa. ummm no, you have completely mis-quoted and misunderstood what I said. Here is what I said, Show nested quote +On February 10 2011 19:16 TheGiftedApe wrote:
your right, it's all a lie, everything is a cover up for a cover story, nothing ever happend. It's good to be skeptical, but blindly believing in a conspiracy theory is even worse than blindly believing the media. Better to do some research and come to your own conclusion based on tangible evidence. Looking at any story from only one perspective or only one side of the viewpoint is the definition of ignorance, open your mind to any and all possible conclusions. and it was a direct reply to what this person said: Show nested quote +On February 10 2011 19:10 HwangjaeTerran wrote:
Most of history is made up, I have no doubts about it.
After all the winner always writes the history books.
I honestly don't understand people who always buy the official story any more than the most hardcore conspiracy theorists. The whole truth is always somewhere between or then something compeletely different. Most people won't tell you the truth unless it's beneficial to them or they will definitely be caught on a lie. Blind trust in media is the most arrogant thing. Now if we all thought as you did sm3agol, The earth would still be flat, and we would still be worshiping the sky god of rain and sun and shit. What I am saying is that you need to be able to look at each story from both sides, and come to your own conclusion otherwise you are being ignorant. I'm not saying you must spend 12 years studying each side of an argument, just look at the evidence and come to a conclusion, its not very hard at all, it's called deductive reasoning, I suggest you try it. Of course that is too difficult for you to understand cause you are used to being spoon fed information by bill o'reilly and fox news.
Well that's certainly a great way to make friends. I suppose I misquoted you, but all I saw was what some other guy quoted from your post, and couldn't find your original, so i went with it. Blame him for originally quoting only 9 words of your treatise.
I suggest you quit being a hilariously biased emo kid. I've never watched Fox news in my entire life that I can recall, and certainly never Bill o'reilly. Thanks for assuming though, it's what the cool kids do.
|
On February 11 2011 08:18 Sm3agol wrote:
All this being said, what is up with these sad sacks of crap know as American citizens, with the tags of RoosterSamurai and Treemonkeys? You should be trying to exonerate your country of wrong-doing, and doing your best to see the good side of what you country did. No, the US is far from perfect, and we fark things up all the time, but for crying aloud, you make me ashamed to be American. You two are actively doing your very best to make your country seem as horrible and pathetic as possible. When confronted with two opposing viewpoints, you invariably take the one that makes your country look the worst.
Take your country location off, that way at least people with think you're just some random US haters not US farking citizens.
I'm ashamed of some of the things our country has done as well, and definitely wish we had handled many things better. But I also believe much of what was done was done in an attempt, perhaps misguided, of doing good. Discuss how we should have handled things better, sure. Discuss current issues and ways you think we are failing and need to change, sure. But actively doing your very best to trash every aspect of our history? Fark you both.
If you can't deal maturely with people seeing the world/history than you do maybe you shouldn't discuss it at all.
Calling people sad sacks of crap and "emo kids" (although I doubt you really know what that means) isn't the best way to get people to take you seriously : /
|
On February 11 2011 07:42 Igakusei wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2011 07:12 Tony Campolo wrote:
Made this thread ages ago under a different account:
-lots of stuff-
Are you serious? I mean, before I actually reply to you I want to know if you're being sarcastic or not.
The answer to your question is... A conspiracy.
|
Sm3agol you post that and you call me emo? calm down. Is anyone actually discussing interesting Debatable historic events anymore or has the thread disintegrated into 9/11 vs moon landing, USA bashing.
|
On February 11 2011 08:25 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2011 08:18 Sm3agol wrote:
All this being said, what is up with these sad sacks of crap know as American citizens, with the tags of RoosterSamurai and Treemonkeys? You should be trying to exonerate your country of wrong-doing, and doing your best to see the good side of what you country did. No, the US is far from perfect, and we fark things up all the time, but for crying aloud, you make me ashamed to be American. You two are actively doing your very best to make your country seem as horrible and pathetic as possible. When confronted with two opposing viewpoints, you invariably take the one that makes your country look the worst.
Take your country location off, that way at least people with think you're just some random US haters not US farking citizens.
I'm ashamed of some of the things our country has done as well, and definitely wish we had handled many things better. But I also believe much of what was done was done in an attempt, perhaps misguided, of doing good. Discuss how we should have handled things better, sure. Discuss current issues and ways you think we are failing and need to change, sure. But actively doing your very best to trash every aspect of our history? Fark you both.
If you can't deal maturely with people seeing the world/history than you do maybe you shouldn't discuss it at all. Calling people sad sacks of crap and "emo kids" (although I doubt you really know what that means) isn't the best way to get people to take you seriously : /
?
Certainly I can deal with it. It just makes me ashamed to be a member of the same country they are.
|
On February 11 2011 08:29 TheGiftedApe wrote:
Sm3agol you post that and you call me emo? calm down. Is anyone actually discussing interesting Debatable historic events anymore or has the thread disintegrated into 9/11 vs moon landing, USA bashing.
As if your fox news and bill o'reilly comment was anything but a direct insult.
And no. Pretty sad, imo, when the only things people can bring up about debateable history is thinly veiled USA bashing.
|
On February 11 2011 08:18 Sm3agol wrote:
All this being said, what is up with these sad sacks of crap know as American citizens, with the tags of RoosterSamurai and Treemonkeys? You should be trying to exonerate your country of wrong-doing, and doing your best to see the good side of what you country did. No, the US is far from perfect, and we fark things up all the time, but for crying aloud, you make me ashamed to be American. You two are actively doing your very best to make your country seem as horrible and pathetic as possible. When confronted with two opposing viewpoints, you invariably take the one that makes your country look the worst.
Take your country location off, that way at least people with think you're just some random US haters not US farking citizens.
I'm ashamed of some of the things our country has done as well, and definitely wish we had handled many things better. But I also believe much of what was done was done in an attempt, perhaps misguided, of doing good. Discuss how we should have handled things better, sure. Discuss current issues and ways you think we are failing and need to change, sure. But actively doing your very best to trash every aspect of our history? Fark you both.
I'm not going to comment on this debate any further. Obviously you're rather upset, and resorting to stereotyping, and name-calling is just a childish thing to do. I'm not going to derail this thread any further by arguing with you.
|
On February 11 2011 05:57 RoosterSamurai wrote:
I have read about the Nanking massacre, and I am not talking about respectful to the living. Neither side was respectful to the living. I'm talking about the treatment of dead bodies. US soldiers commonly stole bodyparts off of dead soldiers in the Pacific theater.
Cant find the quote but I had read that towards the end of the war when rations were tight that some Japanese soldiers resorted to cannibalism and were even encouraged as it spread even more fear of Japanese soldiers. I don't even remember where I read that from but its not hard to imagine. Random beheading done by Japanese soldiers are still in my family's living memory.
The amazing thing is that modern Japanese people are completely oblivious to this part of history. In their eyes their soldiers fought valiantly for an Asia free of Western imperialism. lol.
|
On February 11 2011 02:48 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2011 02:39 danl9rm wrote:On February 10 2011 17:20 meegrean wrote:
I think most of the amazing stuff that Jesus did was probably fictional. Nowadays if anybody claims to be the son of God, they would be sent to a mental institution. He was killed because he claimed to be the son of God. Actually even Bible does not say that. If he was really killed by the Romans, they killed him because they saw him as political troublemaker. As far as you were not seen as threatening their political rule Romans did not really care that much about religion. They were definitely more tolerant than abrahamic religions.
You said in your above post that you read the Bible (I assume so, otherwise you couldn't have "read up on it") and now you say the Bible "does not say [Jesus was killed because he claimed he was the son of God]."
You were probably banking on the odds that I wouldn't reply:
Matthew 26:63 ...The high priest said to him, "I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God." 64 "Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven." 65 Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, "He has spoken blasphemy! Why do we need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard the blasphemy. 66 What do you think?" "He is worthy of death," they answered.
|
Myth that Iraq was an American puppet state, the
Soviets had much more of a presence in that country and it was, in the words of Dennis Ross, a "client central to the Soviet position in the Middle East".
|
On February 11 2011 08:41 danl9rm wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2011 02:48 mcc wrote:On February 11 2011 02:39 danl9rm wrote:On February 10 2011 17:20 meegrean wrote:
I think most of the amazing stuff that Jesus did was probably fictional. Nowadays if anybody claims to be the son of God, they would be sent to a mental institution. He was killed because he claimed to be the son of God. Actually even Bible does not say that. If he was really killed by the Romans, they killed him because they saw him as political troublemaker. As far as you were not seen as threatening their political rule Romans did not really care that much about religion. They were definitely more tolerant than abrahamic religions. You said in your above post that you read the Bible (I assume so, otherwise you couldn't have "read up on it") and now you say the Bible "does not say [Jesus was killed because he claimed he was the son of God]." You were probably banking on the odds that I wouldn't reply: Matthew 26:63 ...The high priest said to him, "I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God." 64 "Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven." 65 Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, "He has spoken blasphemy! Why do we need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard the blasphemy. 66 What do you think?" "He is worthy of death," they answered.
Have you got some better source other than some hearsay accounts written by the Gospel authors?
|
On February 10 2011 14:13 Candide wrote:
Because Hitler did something called the holocaust where it was a racial genocide. compared to the gulag which was a small cultural genocide and a political prison.
well Stalin and Mao did much more damage than "small cultural genocide..." both killed many many peasants, in the millions, trying to boost up the economy. its because the winners write history and Hitler was the loser. if Hitler had won the war in an alternate history then the world probably would not had known about the Holocaust.
|
Who, I might add, did absolutely no research whatsoever of their own and relied on unreliable witness statements of people who were biased towards Jesus already.
Somebody make a Advice God pic sending His Son down to Earth deliberately during a time when video cameras weren't available to capture water walking.
|
On February 11 2011 08:32 T0fuuu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2011 05:57 RoosterSamurai wrote:
I have read about the Nanking massacre, and I am not talking about respectful to the living. Neither side was respectful to the living. I'm talking about the treatment of dead bodies. US soldiers commonly stole bodyparts off of dead soldiers in the Pacific theater. Cant find the quote but I had read that towards the end of the war when rations were tight that some Japanese soldiers resorted to cannibalism and were even encouraged as it spread even more fear of Japanese soldiers. I don't even remember where I read that from but its not hard to imagine. Random beheading done by Japanese soldiers are still in my family's living memory. The amazing thing is that modern Japanese people are completely oblivious to this part of history. In their eyes their soldiers fought valiantly for an Asia free of Western imperialism. lol.
 That's sad.
Yoshio Tachibana was a lietennant general on Chichijima, a small island which George H. W. Bush crash landed on during the war. Tachibana had two prisoners beheaded and their livers were removed, cooked and served to him... not a great guy.
The book Flyboys: A True Story of Courage is all about Chichijima... it's a really good story about a few prisoners of war who survived there. Chichijima actually had more troops on it than Iwo Jima, but it was never attacked. Really good read for anyone looking for a WWII book.
|
On February 11 2011 08:32 RoosterSamurai wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2011 08:18 Sm3agol wrote:
All this being said, what is up with these sad sacks of crap know as American citizens, with the tags of RoosterSamurai and Treemonkeys? You should be trying to exonerate your country of wrong-doing, and doing your best to see the good side of what you country did. No, the US is far from perfect, and we fark things up all the time, but for crying aloud, you make me ashamed to be American. You two are actively doing your very best to make your country seem as horrible and pathetic as possible. When confronted with two opposing viewpoints, you invariably take the one that makes your country look the worst.
Take your country location off, that way at least people with think you're just some random US haters not US farking citizens.
I'm ashamed of some of the things our country has done as well, and definitely wish we had handled many things better. But I also believe much of what was done was done in an attempt, perhaps misguided, of doing good. Discuss how we should have handled things better, sure. Discuss current issues and ways you think we are failing and need to change, sure. But actively doing your very best to trash every aspect of our history? Fark you both.
I'm not going to comment on this debate any further. Obviously you're rather upset, and resorting to stereotyping, and name-calling is just a childish thing to do. I'm not going to derail this thread any further by arguing with you.
I would just like to know how a respectful disagreement devolved into name calling and blatant insults? Maybe the mods are psychic and saw this coming. =( If that's the case my hat is off to you guys, well spotted.
|
On February 11 2011 04:43 RoosterSamurai wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2011 04:42 Treemonkeys wrote:Very true, the US has been making use of revisionist history for some time now. You should look up war crimes committed by the Allies (or even the United States in general throughout history). Some of what the Americans have done in history easily rivals that of the holocaust, or purges of Ukraine.
Yes the allies committed war crimes as well, but no where near the atrocities of the holocaust or the purges of Ukraine/Gulags/Nanking/Asian massacres. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_war_crimes_during_World_War_II#United_States
Yes the Allies raped, pillaged, murdered, and looted europe, but we did not Systematically exterminate 7million people in ww2, there is a large difference.
You could argue that what the United States did to the native Americans was a horrible atrocity, but that story has been repeated thousands of times throughout history. Whenever a more primitive technologically people meet with a more technologically advanced people, whether it be stone tools, gunpowder, or cruise missiles, It almost always ends in the less advanced peoples being exterminated. It is a disgusting side of humanity. Is what the US did to the native Americans any different than what the egyptians did to their neighbors? or what the romans did to the gauls?
|
On February 11 2011 09:12 TheGiftedApe wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2011 04:43 RoosterSamurai wrote:On February 11 2011 04:42 Treemonkeys wrote:Very true, the US has been making use of revisionist history for some time now. You should look up war crimes committed by the Allies (or even the United States in general throughout history). Some of what the Americans have done in history easily rivals that of the holocaust, or purges of Ukraine. Yes the allies committed war crimes as well, but no where near the atrocities of the holocaust or the purges of Ukraine/Gulags/Nanking/Asian massacres. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_war_crimes_during_World_War_II#United_StatesYes the Allies raped, pillaged, murdered, and looted europe, but we did not Systematically exterminate 7million people in ww2, there is a large difference. You could argue that what the United States did to the native Americans was a horrible atrocity, but that story has been repeated thousands of times throughout history. Whenever a more primitive technologically people meet with a more technologically advanced people, whether it be stone tools, gunpowder, or cruise missiles, It almost always ends in the less advanced peoples being exterminated. It is a disgusting side of humanity. Is what the US did to the native Americans any different than what the egyptians did to their neighbors? or what the romans did to the gauls?
Or what the Germans did to the Eastern Europeans? Or what the Japanese did to the Chinese?! In my opinion, the causation is the same, only the scale is different. Although I would argue what the Germans and Japanese did was indeed more horrific in appearance, I wouldn't find "historical reoccurances" as any form of justification for what happened with the Native Americans. Unless of course, they are indeed inferior humans, in which case maybe PETA will probably be giving a bitch fit about.
edit: Word choice change.
|
On February 11 2011 07:55 RoosterSamurai wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2011 07:55 mcc wrote:On February 11 2011 07:49 RoosterSamurai wrote:On February 11 2011 07:45 koreasilver wrote:On February 11 2011 07:31 RoosterSamurai wrote:On February 11 2011 07:28 Sm3agol wrote:On February 11 2011 07:24 RoosterSamurai wrote:On February 11 2011 07:03 Sm3agol wrote:On February 11 2011 05:06 RoosterSamurai wrote:On February 11 2011 05:03 Sm3agol wrote:
[quote]
Maybe.............but that's hardly damning. In breaking news, the government doesn't always tell the truth. And anyone that reads anything knows that the US was very aware of the Japanese threat, but they knew that their people would never agree to a preemtive strike. So they just sat back and waited for Japan to make the first move. Not exactly rocket science or the subject of some huge debate. So, then you concede to my point? The Americans provoked the Japanese in a passive manner and baited them into attacking the US (Resulting in Pearl Harbor,) and then acted like it was some random act of aggression, and used it as leverage to bullhead their way into WWII. Provoked? Lets get this straight. China and Japan are engaged(and had been engaged for quite some time) in mass genocide, on both sides, the Japanese more or less offensively. China is our ally. China is losing. We tell Japan, "Knock the crap off, go home, you're killing our ally". Japan, "Fark you". US, "Fine then, we kill your oil supplies, so you can't continue the war". Japan, "All your base are belong to us". You, "THE US IS SUCH A LYING DECEITFUL COUNTRY, OMG WHY DO I EVEN LIVE HERE??" Me, "MOVE". Sure, we might....have......ummm......I dunno? Wtf do you suggest we had done differently? The people were so apathetic towards the war that unless we were directly attacked we probably would have never entered. Sure, public opinion was on the Allies side, but definitely in a passive way. The general consensus was that we didn't want to get involved directly in another world war. The results of the US not joining the war would have resulted in a much worse situation for Europe, and the war might not have ended for another 5 years. What do I suggest we do differently? Something that the US, to this date, has been unable to do "MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS." The US had no reason to have China as an ally, especially considering that they were their own evil country committing their own genocides against their own civilians. Mind your own business......basically, sit back and do nothing right? Make no attempt to stop the genocide, and let the worlds dictators do whatever they so pleased. Sure that might have sounded good back then too, but in retrospect, what do you think? Do you have any idea how much differently the world would look if we just sat back and did nothing? P.S. It wouldn't look better. Who wouldn't it look better for? The US? The Japanese? The Chinese? You're attempting to embark on a different debate altogether. The logic of us getting involved in Japan's business in China is along the same lines of us getting involved in Vietnam, Korea, Afghanistan, and Iraq (twice). The only difference is that the war against Japan was on a larger scale, and they were slightly more capable of defending themselves than the other four countries were. Are you serious? Japan was mad with power over Asia and the Americans, by all means, liberated countless Koreans from the Japanese imperialism. Same goes for the Korean War. The Americans surely had their own interests in defending the peninsula but I sure as hell am glad the Americans committed themselves to fighting back the North Korean and Chinese militaries. MacArthur even sacrificed an opportunity to decisively beat the communist forces in order to honour his promise of regaining Seoul asap that he made to the Koreans. tldr; please shut up. I don't like present day US much either (I'm an American citizen), but what you're doing is just engaging in complete anti-American polemic even to the point that you would venerate her present and past enemies that she defeated even when some of these enemies were defeated for a very justified cause. That's a very good argument. Without any facts (I am still, to this point, the only person to post any evidence WHATSOEVER) you simply say "Here is my opinion, so shut up." Good job at not refuting any of my arguments. Also, the Vietnamese and North Koreans were never defeated, and your opinion of "liberated" is extremely biased to a democratic, capitalistic point of view. Has it ever occurred to you, even once, that perhaps people in the world do not have the same ideals as you, or the Americans? So, please, do yourself the favor and shut up. Especially if you have no links, evidence, or facts to back up ANYTHING you say. No you are definitely not, and a lot of your posted "evidence" were just links to some stuff that actually did not support your arguments, which were actually proven false, but you chose to ignore those. You never proved anything false.
For example your claim that 12mln died in gulags. And also your whole Soviet union caused more deaths than nazi Germany claim.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
