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What are some debatable accounts of history? - Page 22

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mcc
Profile Joined October 2010
Czech Republic4646 Posts
February 10 2011 21:30 GMT
#421
Also for those with very strong stomachs, something I learned few months ago, and is widely unknown, probably because of very shameful involvement of US at the end of the war. If it is even half-true Japanese even more than rivaled german death camp practices in cruelty if not in german mechanical efficiency.

general description :
Unit_731

NSFW and very disturbing dramatization, definitely at least partially supported by sources:
+ Show Spoiler +
LazyMacro
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
976 Posts
February 10 2011 21:32 GMT
#422
On February 11 2011 06:25 RoosterSamurai wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 11 2011 06:22 Elegy wrote:
Woops, meant WW1***

Yeah, the irony is that Belgium is portrayed as the innocent little child in Europe attacked by the evil Hun! while it gladly supplied rubber to European industry built on the blood and hands (literally...) of the Congolese

I simply can't fathom why anyone would want to crucify a baby.

Neither can I, but people do lots of stupid shit for reasons that don't make any logical sense.

The more and more I read about what humans do to each other for pleasure or out of hatred just makes me feel...is there even a word? Disgusted.
mcc
Profile Joined October 2010
Czech Republic4646 Posts
February 10 2011 21:35 GMT
#423
On February 11 2011 06:19 RoosterSamurai wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 11 2011 06:15 mcc wrote:
On February 11 2011 05:49 RoosterSamurai wrote:
On February 11 2011 05:47 mcc wrote:
On February 11 2011 05:30 RoosterSamurai wrote:
On February 11 2011 05:27 mcc wrote:
On February 11 2011 05:00 RoosterSamurai wrote:
On February 11 2011 04:57 Sm3agol wrote:
On February 11 2011 04:54 RoosterSamurai wrote:
On February 11 2011 04:50 Sm3agol wrote:
[quote]
Maybe you've missed out on all the crap Japan was doing to deserve things like an oil embargo. You know, little things like being in an undeclared war with our ally China?

China deserved to be declared war on.
YELLOW RIVER FLOOD (1938)

During the Sino-Japanese war, as Japanese forces moved west towards the railroad junction of Chengchow, there to meet up with other Japanese units advancing on Hankow, the Chinese Nationalists blew up the flood dykes of the Yellow River. The resulting flood inundated three provinces and forty-four counties. Between four and five thousand villages and eleven towns were flooded. A total of 3,911,354 people were displaced. Altogether 893,303 lives were lost through drowning. The Chinese Nationalists blamed this atrocity on the Japanese.

If that's not enough for you, you can brush up on your pre-Mao era Chinese history here.
http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE2.HTM

Then you'll realize that China killed, literally, more of it's own citizens than Japan ever did.


I'm not saying China was guiltless, but they were our ally at the time, and Japan was clearly...INVADING THEIR COUNTRY??? I'm pretty sure the Chinese weren't blowing crap up in Japan.

The Chinese and Japanese had been at war for THOUSANDS OF YEARS prior to this. Anyone can see that the United States only allied with China to try and keep the Japanese in check (just as we've done with the South Vietnamese, South Koreans, and Afghans). If America were truly so holier-than-thou and actually cared about Human well-being they wouldn't have allied a country that killed millions of it's own citizens just because. The Chinese and Russians killed FAR MORE INNOCENTS THAN THE NAZIS EVER DID.

That is very misleading statement, nazis were in power for like 12 years. Russians has been around for few hundred. That makes your statement true but pretty worthless. If you meant Soviet Union I would love to see some numbers on that, but it is maybe possible, since it is still 70 years against 12. But if you are claiming that Soviets caused the death of more people between 1933-1945 than I think you are mistaken.

It is widely accepted that, during the holocaust, the Nazis killed in the realm of 11,000,000 innocent people.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre
http://www.archaeology.org/9707/newsbriefs/massacres.html
http://www.brama.com/ukraine/history/terror/index.html
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/483936/purge-trials

Here are just some of the numbers. I hope this helps. There are many more, but I'll let you do your own research now.

No I am not responsible for proving your claims. Your links are not news to me, because I am kind of from the area and we learn it at school. My question is, why are you limiting nazi kills to holocaust. You know that they caused other deaths, with the wars they started and all. And even sum of the deaths in your sources does not come close to the millions that died in holocaust.

You are responsible for disproving them, which you have yet to do. So far, in this entire debate, I am the ONLY person to post a single supporting link.
I grant you permission to use any search engine you want. Go ahead and get some evidence to refute my evidence, or support your claims.

Do you know how it works ? You claim something factual , the burden of proof is on you. If you propose hypothesis than there is disproving. You cannot prove hypothesis, and you cannot require disproving of facts. That said I actually pointed out arguments that you chose to ignore.

But since I also kind of claimed something , here you go : let's assume the number you provided 11mln for german-caused deaths (if necessary we can go up to something like at least 50mln killed in the wars caused by germany, just so we have some upper limit). Now let us consider Soviet-caused deaths. The biggest contributors will be Ukrainian famine (if we count it) which is about 4mln (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor). Second will be probably Gulag-caused deaths : about 1.3 mln between 1934-1953. Other causes are smaller by an order of magnitude : purges, Katyn, Finland war, occupation of baltic states, occupation of Poland,...
The sum is a lot lower than even the 11mln for Germany.

http://www.faminegenocide.com/kuryliw/timeline.htm

You're also neglecting the 12,000,000 sent to labor camps. You know how a labor camp works, right? You work until you die.

That is false and common misconception. It is even not true about all of German labor camps and definitely not true about gulags.
wiki on Gulag
To cite :
More than 14 million people passed through the Gulag from 1929 to 1953, with a further 6 to 7 million being deported and exiled to remote areas of the USSR.[9] According to a 1993 study of incomplete archival Soviet data, a total of 1,053,829 people died in the Gulag from 1934 to 1953.[6] More complete data puts the death toll for this same time period at 1,258,537, with an estimated 1.6 million casualties from 1929 to 1953.
Elegy
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States1629 Posts
February 10 2011 21:35 GMT
#424
They didn't crucify babies, but the propaganda said they did that and more, and bayoneted babies, etc.

I love watching/reading about propaganda from earlier decades, if you think the media portrays Islam in a negative light, it's nothing compared to the extreme stuff that was said years ago.
bonifaceviii
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada2890 Posts
February 10 2011 21:37 GMT
#425
On February 11 2011 06:30 mcc wrote:
Also for those with very strong stomachs, something I learned few months ago, and is widely unknown, probably because of very shameful involvement of US at the end of the war. If it is even half-true Japanese even more than rivaled german death camp practices in cruelty if not in german mechanical efficiency.

general description :
Unit_731

NSFW and very disturbing dramatization, definitely at least partially supported by sources:
+ Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAp8bSdE5MQ

Unit 731 is only unknown if you haven't studied the Japanese occupation of China.

If you've ever wondered why Chinese people still don't like Japan, it's because Japan really hasn't owned up to some pretty serious shit.
Stay a while and listen || http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=354018
RoosterSamurai
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Japan2108 Posts
February 10 2011 21:37 GMT
#426
On February 11 2011 06:35 Elegy wrote:
They didn't crucify babies, but the propaganda said they did that and more, and bayoneted babies, etc.

I love watching/reading about propaganda from earlier decades, if you think the media portrays Islam in a negative light, it's nothing compared to the extreme stuff that was said years ago.

Well not only that, but propaganda and American "intelligence" on Japanese behavior lead to the internment camps in the states. Why were there no internment camps for German-Americans or Italian-Americans?
Elegy
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States1629 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-10 21:41:51
February 10 2011 21:39 GMT
#427
On February 11 2011 06:37 RoosterSamurai wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 11 2011 06:35 Elegy wrote:
They didn't crucify babies, but the propaganda said they did that and more, and bayoneted babies, etc.

I love watching/reading about propaganda from earlier decades, if you think the media portrays Islam in a negative light, it's nothing compared to the extreme stuff that was said years ago.

Well not only that, but propaganda and American "intelligence" on Japanese behavior lead to the internment camps in the states. Why were there no internment camps for German-Americans or Italian-Americans?


They did

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_American_internment

The population of alien Germans in the United States – not to mention American citizens of German birth – was far too large for a general policy of internment comparable to that used in the case of the Japanese in America.[8] Instead, Germans and German Americans in the U.S. were detained and evicted from coastal areas on an individual basis. The War Department considered mass expulsions from coastal areas for reasons of military security, but never executed such plans.[9]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_American_internment

Italian Americans who were evacuated and interned under the War Relocation Authority. This authority was based on Executive Order 9066 (issued February 19, 1942) and Executive Order 9102 (issued March 18, 1942). These orders authorized the "removal from designated areas of persons whose removal is necessary in the interests of national security."[5] That authority did not distinguish between native-born Americans and citizens of other nations living in the United States; the orders simply said "persons." This was the same basis upon which Japanese Americans were interned, an effort much larger in scale than Italian American internment. Indeed, both foreign-born and native-born Japanese Americans and both citizens and non-citizens were interned, though the majority (about 60 percent) were in fact native-born U.S. citizens.[6][7][8] Italian Americans interned under the War Relocation Authority were not arrested under the Enemy Alien Act, but were simply "persons" removed under the War Relocation Authority.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Relocation_Authority
RoosterSamurai
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Japan2108 Posts
February 10 2011 21:41 GMT
#428
On February 11 2011 06:39 Elegy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 11 2011 06:37 RoosterSamurai wrote:
On February 11 2011 06:35 Elegy wrote:
They didn't crucify babies, but the propaganda said they did that and more, and bayoneted babies, etc.

I love watching/reading about propaganda from earlier decades, if you think the media portrays Islam in a negative light, it's nothing compared to the extreme stuff that was said years ago.

Well not only that, but propaganda and American "intelligence" on Japanese behavior lead to the internment camps in the states. Why were there no internment camps for German-Americans or Italian-Americans?


They did

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_American_internment

Show nested quote +
The population of alien Germans in the United States – not to mention American citizens of German birth – was far too large for a general policy of internment comparable to that used in the case of the Japanese in America.[8] Instead, Germans and German Americans in the U.S. were detained and evicted from coastal areas on an individual basis. The War Department considered mass expulsions from coastal areas for reasons of military security, but never executed such plans.[9]

Alright, I've never heard of this before, but according to the wiki, only 11,000 German Americans were detained, which is about 10% the number of Japanese Americans detained according to the wiki.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_American_internment
Alexson
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Belarus293 Posts
February 10 2011 21:43 GMT
#429
Why didn't anyone say 9/11 yet? Mater of fact, thats not even debatable.
Liberal who supports gun use and supports an eye for an eye
Elegy
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States1629 Posts
February 10 2011 21:43 GMT
#430
On February 11 2011 06:41 RoosterSamurai wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 11 2011 06:39 Elegy wrote:
On February 11 2011 06:37 RoosterSamurai wrote:
On February 11 2011 06:35 Elegy wrote:
They didn't crucify babies, but the propaganda said they did that and more, and bayoneted babies, etc.

I love watching/reading about propaganda from earlier decades, if you think the media portrays Islam in a negative light, it's nothing compared to the extreme stuff that was said years ago.

Well not only that, but propaganda and American "intelligence" on Japanese behavior lead to the internment camps in the states. Why were there no internment camps for German-Americans or Italian-Americans?


They did

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_American_internment

The population of alien Germans in the United States – not to mention American citizens of German birth – was far too large for a general policy of internment comparable to that used in the case of the Japanese in America.[8] Instead, Germans and German Americans in the U.S. were detained and evicted from coastal areas on an individual basis. The War Department considered mass expulsions from coastal areas for reasons of military security, but never executed such plans.[9]

Alright, I've never heard of this before, but according to the wiki, only 11,000 German Americans were detained, which is about 10% the number of Japanese Americans detained according to the wiki.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_American_internment


Sure, the part I quoted explains the German-American population is just too far to do anything along the lines of the Japanese. Likewise, although I don't know the history of racism against Japanese in America, but I imagine the racial component played a serious role in making the Japanese internment camps as extreme as they were compared to the German or Italians.
mcc
Profile Joined October 2010
Czech Republic4646 Posts
February 10 2011 21:43 GMT
#431
On February 11 2011 06:37 bonifaceviii wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 11 2011 06:30 mcc wrote:
Also for those with very strong stomachs, something I learned few months ago, and is widely unknown, probably because of very shameful involvement of US at the end of the war. If it is even half-true Japanese even more than rivaled german death camp practices in cruelty if not in german mechanical efficiency.

general description :
Unit_731

NSFW and very disturbing dramatization, definitely at least partially supported by sources:
+ Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAp8bSdE5MQ

Unit 731 is only unknown if you haven't studied the Japanese occupation of China.

If you've ever wondered why Chinese people still don't like Japan, it's because Japan really hasn't owned up to some pretty serious shit.

Well I read about Pacific war quite a lot, but for some reason always ignored continental (Soviet, Chinese) part. I learned about it just recently, and most people I talked to (some of them historians, but medieval true ) never actually heard about it so I assumed it was mostly unknown.
RoosterSamurai
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Japan2108 Posts
February 10 2011 21:44 GMT
#432
On February 11 2011 06:43 Alexson wrote:
Why didn't anyone say 9/11 yet? Mater of fact, thats not even debatable.

Check several pages back. There was a big discussion about 9/11....
Alexson
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Belarus293 Posts
February 10 2011 21:46 GMT
#433
On February 11 2011 06:44 RoosterSamurai wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 11 2011 06:43 Alexson wrote:
Why didn't anyone say 9/11 yet? Mater of fact, thats not even debatable.

Check several pages back. There was a big discussion about 9/11....

Link please, sorry but I could only read the first 8 pages and I really don't have to time to be flipping through pages.
Liberal who supports gun use and supports an eye for an eye
Dagobert
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Netherlands1858 Posts
February 10 2011 21:46 GMT
#434
On February 10 2011 19:16 TheGiftedApe wrote:
[...]open your mind to any and all possible conclusions.

I don't think this is what you meant to say when you went ahead and wrote this, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, but if this actually represents your opinion, I would like to refer you to this video:

RoosterSamurai
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Japan2108 Posts
February 10 2011 21:48 GMT
#435
On February 11 2011 06:46 Alexson wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 11 2011 06:44 RoosterSamurai wrote:
On February 11 2011 06:43 Alexson wrote:
Why didn't anyone say 9/11 yet? Mater of fact, thats not even debatable.

Check several pages back. There was a big discussion about 9/11....

Link please, sorry but I could only read the first 8 pages and I really don't have to time to be flipping through pages.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=191844&currentpage=16

I know there are other areas where it was discussed, but it looks like page 16 is where the most recent one begins?
I don't pay attention to 9/11 conspiracy theories, so I don't participate. I'm not going to be the most helpful person.
Sm3agol
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States2055 Posts
February 10 2011 21:48 GMT
#436
On February 11 2011 06:46 Alexson wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 11 2011 06:44 RoosterSamurai wrote:
On February 11 2011 06:43 Alexson wrote:
Why didn't anyone say 9/11 yet? Mater of fact, thats not even debatable.

Check several pages back. There was a big discussion about 9/11....

Link please, sorry but I could only read the first 8 pages and I really don't have to time to be flipping through pages.

Don't bother, the modmins don't want anyone talking about that any more. Which sucks balls because I have like 3 pages I want to write.

BeefyKnight
Profile Joined November 2010
United States127 Posts
February 10 2011 21:50 GMT
#437
On February 11 2011 06:46 Alexson wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 11 2011 06:44 RoosterSamurai wrote:
On February 11 2011 06:43 Alexson wrote:
Why didn't anyone say 9/11 yet? Mater of fact, thats not even debatable.

Check several pages back. There was a big discussion about 9/11....

Link please, sorry but I could only read the first 8 pages and I really don't have to time to be flipping through pages.

Pages 10-16/17 i think?
If you can't find it look for my posts. I'm more or less in the middle of it.
QuanticHawk
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
United States32161 Posts
February 10 2011 21:52 GMT
#438
On February 11 2011 06:41 RoosterSamurai wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 11 2011 06:39 Elegy wrote:
On February 11 2011 06:37 RoosterSamurai wrote:
On February 11 2011 06:35 Elegy wrote:
They didn't crucify babies, but the propaganda said they did that and more, and bayoneted babies, etc.

I love watching/reading about propaganda from earlier decades, if you think the media portrays Islam in a negative light, it's nothing compared to the extreme stuff that was said years ago.

Well not only that, but propaganda and American "intelligence" on Japanese behavior lead to the internment camps in the states. Why were there no internment camps for German-Americans or Italian-Americans?


They did

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_American_internment

The population of alien Germans in the United States – not to mention American citizens of German birth – was far too large for a general policy of internment comparable to that used in the case of the Japanese in America.[8] Instead, Germans and German Americans in the U.S. were detained and evicted from coastal areas on an individual basis. The War Department considered mass expulsions from coastal areas for reasons of military security, but never executed such plans.[9]

Alright, I've never heard of this before, but according to the wiki, only 11,000 German Americans were detained, which is about 10% the number of Japanese Americans detained according to the wiki.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_American_internment


I'd have to imagine it's a lot more to do with the fact that Japan demonstrated the ability and willingness to go out into the ocean, attack American assets in what seemed to be a push towards the mainland. For a while, it was believed that Japan would be invading the west. Besides a few u-boats causing trouble in the Atlantic, Germany never really made any moves to head towards American mainland, or give the impression that it was.

If the Germans took up shop in Cuba, Bermuda or struck up a friendship with Mexico, it might be a different story.

PROFESSIONAL GAMER - SEND ME OFFERS TO JOIN YOUR TEAM - USA USA USA
RoosterSamurai
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Japan2108 Posts
February 10 2011 21:55 GMT
#439
On February 11 2011 06:52 Hawk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 11 2011 06:41 RoosterSamurai wrote:
On February 11 2011 06:39 Elegy wrote:
On February 11 2011 06:37 RoosterSamurai wrote:
On February 11 2011 06:35 Elegy wrote:
They didn't crucify babies, but the propaganda said they did that and more, and bayoneted babies, etc.

I love watching/reading about propaganda from earlier decades, if you think the media portrays Islam in a negative light, it's nothing compared to the extreme stuff that was said years ago.

Well not only that, but propaganda and American "intelligence" on Japanese behavior lead to the internment camps in the states. Why were there no internment camps for German-Americans or Italian-Americans?


They did

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_American_internment

The population of alien Germans in the United States – not to mention American citizens of German birth – was far too large for a general policy of internment comparable to that used in the case of the Japanese in America.[8] Instead, Germans and German Americans in the U.S. were detained and evicted from coastal areas on an individual basis. The War Department considered mass expulsions from coastal areas for reasons of military security, but never executed such plans.[9]

Alright, I've never heard of this before, but according to the wiki, only 11,000 German Americans were detained, which is about 10% the number of Japanese Americans detained according to the wiki.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_American_internment


I'd have to imagine it's a lot more to do with the fact that Japan demonstrated the ability and willingness to go out into the ocean, attack American assets in what seemed to be a push towards the mainland. For a while, it was believed that Japan would be invading the west. Besides a few u-boats causing trouble in the Atlantic, Germany never really made any moves to head towards American mainland, or give the impression that it was.

If the Germans took up shop in Cuba, Bermuda or struck up a friendship with Mexico, it might be a different story.


Regardless, it's still racism/ethnocentrism at it's finest.
Alexson
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Belarus293 Posts
February 10 2011 21:56 GMT
#440
On February 11 2011 06:48 Sm3agol wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 11 2011 06:46 Alexson wrote:
On February 11 2011 06:44 RoosterSamurai wrote:
On February 11 2011 06:43 Alexson wrote:
Why didn't anyone say 9/11 yet? Mater of fact, thats not even debatable.

Check several pages back. There was a big discussion about 9/11....

Link please, sorry but I could only read the first 8 pages and I really don't have to time to be flipping through pages.

Don't bother, the modmins don't want anyone talking about that any more. Which sucks balls because I have like 3 pages I want to write.



Why not? There is a lot to debate with 9/11...
Liberal who supports gun use and supports an eye for an eye
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