NASA and the Private Sector - Page 2
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nihoh
Australia978 Posts
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Djzapz
Canada10681 Posts
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Tadzio
3340 Posts
On January 01 2011 09:03 t3hwUn wrote: I'd rather see our tax dollars spent elsewhere. The Private sector takes care of things and is the most efficient model to do so. Unfortunately that's not the majority view or at least it isn't portrayed as such. First manned spaceflight (orbit) = 1961. Russians. US had sub-orbital spaceflight in 1961, but wouldn't put a man into orbit until 1962. The first non-governmental manned spaceflight (sub-orbital). = 2004. The plans for the first non-governmental manned orbital mission were set in motion in 2009. I still haven't heard anything about them accomplishing it. Some killer efficiency right there.... Peeps be takin' care of bizniz. Meanwhile, NASAs been to the moon, has probes exiting our solar system. Has a massive satellite network in place, has an international space station and is contemplating a manned mission to Mars. They're also doing a ton of research on the universe, its origins, and the nature of reality (physics) that has very little to do with spaceflight, and everything to do with their budget. The truth is, things don't get "efficient" until the public pays for the development. The private sector cannot afford-- and indeed has very little interest in-- driving scientific advancement, or even innovation, for that matter. What the private sector is good at is exploiting resources, minimizing risks and growing markets. That's not a bad thing, btw, but you should be very careful ascribing misleading characteristics to the private sector. Private agencies seem (and often are) efficient simply as a consequence of their aversion to risk. And that isn't something we should encourage upon sciences. I guess if NASA announced that every asteroid was filled with crude oil, Halliburton would have a team of contractors in space inside of a week, but they'd be using rocket designs from NASA to do it. | ||
darmousseh
United States3437 Posts
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Djzapz
Canada10681 Posts
It's also sad how poorly funded scientists like physicians are. It's sad that people don't realize how it's our understanding of the forces of the universe that led to the technology we have today. NASA's funding is such a small part of the US budget - especially when you look at the military budget and such - and yet it's one of the most important. Sure it's important to think of today, but NASA is about the future, and we can't neglect that either. If you don't understand why science is important, then I suggest you observe your lifestyle and take notice of how much it's affected by it - and not just Microsoft's R&D. Sure you might think space missions don't matter because you think in the short term, but like Michio Kaku once said (and I paraphrase), we have a very limited perspective of what our universe really is - just like fishes don't really have a concept of up and down and kind of live in a 2D universe, we see 3 dimensions and we tend to think that that's all there is. Luckily we have people who are able to wrap their minds around the fact that it's not that simple. Those people need money. | ||
Aquafresh
United States824 Posts
The new role of NASA will almost exclusively be to explore space, develop new technologies such as advanced propulsion, and open up new fields. The routine things like sending Astronauts to LEO and servicing the ISS will be contracted out to private companies such as SpaceX. For this to work private space is the key. Currently the ISS contract is the main incentive for private companies to spend their money, shortly space tourism will take off and that will be a major incentive as well. With a healthy private space industry NASA can shift a lot of the burden of getting back and forth to orbit to them and will be freed up to tackle more scientifically worthy projects. | ||
Ferrose
United States11378 Posts
On January 01 2011 12:13 Djzapz wrote: R&D of that level requires an enormous body because the investment doesn't directly result in profit as pointed out above. Very few companies, if any, would take those kind of risks without financial support. It's also sad how poorly funded scientists like physicians are. It's sad that people don't realize how it's our understanding of the forces of the universe that led to the technology we have today. NASA's funding is such a small part of the US budget - especially when you look at the military budget and such - and yet it's one of the most important. Sure it's important to think of today, but NASA is about the future, and we can't neglect that either. If you don't understand why science is important, then I suggest you observe your lifestyle and take notice of how much it's affected by it - and not just Microsoft's R&D. Sure you might think space missions don't matter because you think in the short term, but like Michio Kaku once said (and I paraphrase), we have a very limited perspective of what our universe really is - just like fishes don't really have a concept of up and down and kind of live in a 2D universe, we see 3 dimensions and we tend to think that that's all there is. Luckily we have people who are able to wrap their minds around the fact that it's not that simple. Those people need money. I don't think the general public understand it though. I mean, we land on the Moon, and everyone parties because it's a big deal. But even small things are a big deal. Like the LHC. Most people would be like "Wow, cool. They made some particles go really fast and hit each other." When really, there's much more to it than that. It seems that the general public doesn't give a shit about science unless there's some giant progressional leap. | ||
Djzapz
Canada10681 Posts
On January 01 2011 12:20 Ferrose wrote: I don't think the general public understand it though. I mean, we land on the Moon, and everyone parties because it's a big deal. But even small things are a big deal. Like the LHC. Most people would be like "Wow, cool. They made some particles go really fast and hit each other." When really, there's much more to it than that. It seems that the general public doesn't give a shit about science unless there's some giant progressional leap. And yet it's pretty simple. Sure it's abstract to people when they hear about "atom smashers" like the LHC. Oh, it's going to "find particles" - they don't care about silly particles! But really it's those abstract findings that lead to concrete technological advancements. | ||
[Eternal]Phoenix
United States333 Posts
The only reasons you'd go into space is: -exploration -research -tourism Of these, only tourism is a market force in any meaningful way, and there just aren't enough millionaires with $400 million in expendable cash that want to go into orbit. So to quell this stupid debate on public vs private. Spaceflight will be invested into by the private sector when there's a lucrative benefit to the company. Until someone can make a profit off it, nobody will care. The public sector has no reason to invest into space unless it gives a benefit to the nation as a whole. We have military spy satellites and communication satellites because those give us a massive edge over other nations. The only reason to go into space is because we want to. The reason the space program swelled in the 60s is because we had another reason to go - get there before Russia. Perhaps if China wants to seriously challenge our domain then we'll see a resurgence. It's a pity because I really want us to push the boundaries and venture into the outer solar system and beyond. I just don't see it happening unless someone has a damn good reason to do so. | ||
BlackJack
United States10335 Posts
On January 01 2011 10:51 majestouch wrote: wow, that is extremely narrow-minded that you think of human life as being so how do i put this... not worthwhile? not important? lol. Good thing that engineers follow a code of ethics and morals, else your house would crash in on yourself--to bad it isn't after reading that comment. For more information about the earliest set of rules/ethics in engineering/building read the Code of Hammurabi. It's the engineers morals and ethics that keep my house from falling in? I think the reason my house doesn't cave in is because it's bad for business. Do you think Toyota cares more about the fact that people won't buy their cars if their accelerator sticks or that you might die if their accelerator sticks? The reason companies spend millions of dollars in research for higher safety standards is because that's what people demand, not because they feel like spending millions of dollars for some humanitarian purpose that might save a few lives. | ||
BlueBird.
United States3889 Posts
On January 01 2011 13:39 [Eternal]Phoenix wrote: There is absolutely no realistic benefit to going into space from an economic standpoint. What's out there that isn't on the ground? There's basically no reason at all as a company to invest into spaceflight. The only reasons you'd go into space is: -exploration -research -tourism Of these, only tourism is a market force in any meaningful way, and there just aren't enough millionaires with $400 million in expendable cash that want to go into orbit. So to quell this stupid debate on public vs private. Spaceflight will be invested into by the private sector when there's a lucrative benefit to the company. Until someone can make a profit off it, nobody will care. The public sector has no reason to invest into space unless it gives a benefit to the nation as a whole. We have military spy satellites and communication satellites because those give us a massive edge over other nations. The only reason to go into space is because we want to. The reason the space program swelled in the 60s is because we had another reason to go - get there before Russia. Perhaps if China wants to seriously challenge our domain then we'll see a resurgence. It's a pity because I really want us to push the boundaries and venture into the outer solar system and beyond. I just don't see it happening unless someone has a damn good reason to do so. there are military benefits, as well as the idea of colonization, sure we might not be doing it yet, but someday we are gonna realize we need to spread, or die. Also, exploration could lead to some pretty crazy economic benefits, if they find something they can use and sell for profit... energy, precious resources, etc.. that can only be found in space, using expensive equipment, they could make money... The problem is that it's not very realistic to hope your gonna make profit during your lifetime, it would be hard to get me to give up all my money so my great grand children can be rich, kind of same situation. | ||
hypercube
Hungary2735 Posts
On January 01 2011 11:40 Tadzio wrote: Meanwhile, NASAs been to the moon, has probes exiting our solar system. Has a massive satellite network in place, has an international space station and is contemplating a manned mission to Mars. They're also doing a ton of research on the universe, its origins, and the nature of reality (physics) that has very little to do with spaceflight, and everything to do with their budget. The truth is, things don't get "efficient" until the public pays for the development. The private sector cannot afford-- and indeed has very little interest in-- driving scientific advancement, or even innovation, for that matter. What the private sector is good at is exploiting resources, minimizing risks and growing markets. That's not a bad thing, btw, but you should be very careful ascribing misleading characteristics to the private sector. Private agencies seem (and often are) efficient simply as a consequence of their aversion to risk. And that isn't something we should encourage upon sciences. I guess if NASA announced that every asteroid was filled with crude oil, Halliburton would have a team of contractors in space inside of a week, but they'd be using rocket designs from NASA to do it. Manned spaceflight has been a massive failure since at least the Challenger disaster and probably as early as the start of the shuttle program. When it became obvious that it was impossible to operate the shuttle cheaply and safely the whole program should have been scrapped and NASA should have focused on developing a better alternative. It didn't happen because of political reasons, mainly all the jobs connected to the Space Shuttle. NASA isn't inefficient because they are so focused on innovation. They are inefficient because they are so tied up in political commitments that they can't focus on their real goals. Before American taxpayers commit to any new exploration program they would do well to examine why the last ones failed. Because NASA (or any other organization created in its place) is quite capable of taking a massive amount of funding and creating no innovation at all in return. | ||
Romantic
United States1844 Posts
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majestouch
United States395 Posts
On January 01 2011 11:40 Tadzio wrote: 1. First manned spaceflight (orbit) = 1961. Russians. US had sub-orbital spaceflight in 1961, but wouldn't put a man into orbit until 1962. 2. The first non-governmental manned spaceflight (sub-orbital). = 2004. The plans for the first non-governmental manned orbital mission were set in motion in 2009. I still haven't heard anything about them accomplishing it. Some killer efficiency right there.... Peeps be takin' care of bizniz. 3. Meanwhile, NASAs been to the moon, has probes exiting our solar system. Has a massive satellite network in place, has an international space station and is contemplating a manned mission to Mars. They're also doing a ton of research on the universe, its origins, and the nature of reality (physics) that has very little to do with spaceflight, and everything to do with their budget. The truth is, things don't get "efficient" until the public pays for the development. The private sector cannot afford-- and indeed has very little interest in-- driving scientific advancement, or even innovation, for that matter. What the private sector is good at is exploiting resources, minimizing risks and growing markets. That's not a bad thing, btw, but you should be very careful ascribing misleading characteristics to the private sector. Private agencies seem (and often are) efficient simply as a consequence of their aversion to risk. And that isn't something we should encourage upon sciences. I guess if NASA announced that every asteroid was filled with crude oil, Halliburton would have a team of contractors in space inside of a week, but they'd be using rocket designs from NASA to do it. 1. usa would of been to space and in orbit sooner, werner von braun (the father of modern rocketry//ex nazi) proposed in 1955 for the international geographic year(or something w/e it was) to put a satellite in orbit. govt said go fuck urself cuz ur german. govt then gave project to the navy code-named vanguard, they didn't know shit about rockets. while in huntsville, von braun was secretly testing exhaust shit and when vanguard failed, his team was given 6months to get a satellite in orbit. they did it in 3. 2. private sector had no reason to get involved until: ppl wanted to go to space (commerically) ie venture capitalism nasa was doing just fine until political pissing contests. 3. nasa isn't contemplating the dems are not funding it b/c they think giving $200 to every man, woman, and child in the us to go spend on useless shit is more important. ur post is great, simply elaborating upon it. | ||
majestouch
United States395 Posts
On January 01 2011 12:13 Aquafresh wrote: I think the author of the article is not understanding what is happening here. No one in charge is advocating for the private sector to replace NASA, that isn't what this is about. The private sector is designing rockets to earn contracts to do things that NASA has been doing quite badly for ages. For instance the shuttle, which costs about 500 million per launch, is basically only used to service the ISS and run LEO experiments. Mission costs and maintenance of the Shuttle alone have basically tied the US manned space program to LEO since the 70s due the insane recurring costs. Why should NASA have to blow its manned space budget on maintaining 40 year old equipment when there is a whole industry worth of private space companies that are vying for the contract to resupply the ISS and ferry Astronauts to LEO? They are willing to do it for 57 million, using superior, safer, technology. NASA isn't going to go away once these contracts are awarded, unless think going to LEO and back is all NASA is capable of. Once these thing are shifted on to private space NASA will be free to use its increased budget to develop new technologies, and tackle projects that it had its eyes set on decades ago, but never got the funding for (due to the shuttle.) The new role of NASA will almost exclusively be to explore space, develop new technologies such as advanced propulsion, and open up new fields. The routine things like sending Astronauts to LEO and servicing the ISS will be contracted out to private companies such as SpaceX. For this to work private space is the key. Currently the ISS contract is the main incentive for private companies to spend their money, shortly space tourism will take off and that will be a major incentive as well. With a healthy private space industry NASA can shift a lot of the burden of getting back and forth to orbit to them and will be freed up to tackle more scientifically worthy projects. what the shuttle is currently used for was not nasa's intended goal. basically in the early 70's nixon said herpty derpty der econ is fucked (stagflation) told nasa make a shuttle for doing shit b/c he didn't understand 1time use rockets are cheaper. ford was like herpty derpty der i got president dunno shit bout nasa. carter... don't even get me started on him hes just dumb. reagan was like "hey space shuttle cool menz" and increased govt spending on military/nasa arguably leading to the collapse of the soviet union seeing they couldn't match govt spending on millitary and if they weren't millitarily equal = no longer a super-power. bush (sr) didn't really do anything can't do much in 4yrs. clinton said: soviet union collapsing better do something w/ russians (ISS) so all of the soviet engineers don't go to north korea//iran-- prlly the only good thing clinton did besides getting blow jobs. basically, the shuttle as it is, is quite useless. When nixon commisioned it, he didn't understand the upkeep cost of it, whereas 1time use rockets would be more efficient. | ||
Aquafresh
United States824 Posts
On January 02 2011 02:28 majestouch wrote: + Show Spoiler + On January 01 2011 12:13 Aquafresh wrote: I think the author of the article is not understanding what is happening here. No one in charge is advocating for the private sector to replace NASA, that isn't what this is about. The private sector is designing rockets to earn contracts to do things that NASA has been doing quite badly for ages. For instance the shuttle, which costs about 500 million per launch, is basically only used to service the ISS and run LEO experiments. Mission costs and maintenance of the Shuttle alone have basically tied the US manned space program to LEO since the 70s due the insane recurring costs. Why should NASA have to blow its manned space budget on maintaining 40 year old equipment when there is a whole industry worth of private space companies that are vying for the contract to resupply the ISS and ferry Astronauts to LEO? They are willing to do it for 57 million, using superior, safer, technology. NASA isn't going to go away once these contracts are awarded, unless think going to LEO and back is all NASA is capable of. Once these thing are shifted on to private space NASA will be free to use its increased budget to develop new technologies, and tackle projects that it had its eyes set on decades ago, but never got the funding for (due to the shuttle.) The new role of NASA will almost exclusively be to explore space, develop new technologies such as advanced propulsion, and open up new fields. The routine things like sending Astronauts to LEO and servicing the ISS will be contracted out to private companies such as SpaceX. For this to work private space is the key. Currently the ISS contract is the main incentive for private companies to spend their money, shortly space tourism will take off and that will be a major incentive as well. With a healthy private space industry NASA can shift a lot of the burden of getting back and forth to orbit to them and will be freed up to tackle more scientifically worthy projects. what the shuttle is currently used for was not nasa's intended goal. basically in the early 70's nixon said herpty derpty der econ is fucked (stagflation) told nasa make a shuttle for doing shit b/c he didn't understand 1time use rockets are cheaper. ford was like herpty derpty der i got president dunno shit bout nasa. carter... don't even get me started on him hes just dumb. reagan was like "hey space shuttle cool menz" and increased govt spending on military/nasa arguably leading to the collapse of the soviet union seeing they couldn't match govt spending on millitary and if they weren't millitarily equal = no longer a super-power. bush (sr) didn't really do anything can't do much in 4yrs. clinton said: soviet union collapsing better do something w/ russians (ISS) so all of the soviet engineers don't go to north korea//iran-- prlly the only good thing clinton did besides getting blow jobs. basically, the shuttle as it is, is quite useless. When nixon commisioned it, he didn't understand the upkeep cost of it, whereas 1time use rockets would be more efficient. All herps and derps aside I would agree that the shuttle does not fill the need that it was originally requested to fill. It is a marvelous piece of engineering, and a landmark achievement in manned spaceflight, but it is pretty damn bad at its original job, which was supposed to be cheap, reusable, and reliable access to space for humans and large payloads, the latter of which was never even fully taken advantage of. Also On January 02 2011 02:28 majestouch wrote: 3. nasa isn't contemplating the dems are not funding it b/c they think giving $200 to every man, woman, and child in the us to go spend on useless shit is more important. NASA's funding has been significantly increased under the budget originally proposed in June. Constellation has been cut, but only partially after a few prominent congressmen whined about it due to the jobs and industry tied to their states. Combine the increased budget, scaled back Constellation, and the winding down of the STS program and you have a lot of funding opening up for R&D on new technologies. Something that hasn't happened in a very long time. | ||
InvalidID
United States1050 Posts
The SpaceX contract is a step in the right direction from the god awful space shuttle, and its cost /kg to GTO is ~5% of the space shuttle, and ~25% of the Proton platform(and that is not pricing in the insurance for Protons 88% success rate), but the continued obsession with manned flight will remain an albatross. They are behaving a bit like the pentagon in the late 90s, when confronted with UAVs. They made every excuse they could think of as to why they were a bad idea compared to manned craft, but finally the successful operation of UAVs by the CIA proved them wrong. Hopefully NASA will see the successful private launch industry, with its non-reliance on manned craft, and adjust. | ||
InvalidID
United States1050 Posts
1. usa would of been to space and in orbit sooner, werner von braun (the father of modern rocketry//ex nazi) proposed in 1955 for the international geographic year(or something w/e it was) to put a satellite in orbit. govt said go fuck urself cuz ur german. govt then gave project to the navy code-named vanguard, they didn't know shit about rockets. while in huntsville, von braun was secretly testing exhaust shit and when vanguard failed, his team was given 6months to get a satellite in orbit. they did it in 3. 2. private sector had no reason to get involved until: ppl wanted to go to space (commerically) ie venture capitalism nasa was doing just fine until political pissing contests. 3. nasa isn't contemplating the dems are not funding it b/c they think giving $200 to every man, woman, and child in the us to go spend on useless shit is more important. ur post is great, simply elaborating upon it. 1. I have no idea about this story, but it is plausible. I doubt it had much to do with his German heritage, as a number of US scientists were German immigrants from the former Nazi regime. von Braun, in fact, was arrested by the Nazis, and made a number of comments openly critical of the Nazi regime that would have gotten him shot, if he was not the most critical scientist in Germany at the time(he ran the V2 project). On the flip side, the rocket plants nominally under his control had brutal conditions and slave labor, that he claimed to be unable to control. 2. The private sector has always been involved for a long time. Space Systems Loral, Boeing, and Lockheed have been contracting in the industry for a long time, for both public sector and private sector clients. Where do you think your satellite TV comes from? NASA was successful but obscenely cost inefficient. The fact of the matter is that private industry can currently accomplish most space tasks, from satellite design, through payload launch for significantly less then NASA. Russia can send payloads for 1/4 of the cost of the space shuttle per kg. SpaceX has achieved 5%. 3. NASA budget has not been cut, but the democrats are forcing them to undergo significant reforms to focus on more cost effective research and launch methodologies. | ||
TheNihilist
United States178 Posts
Now SpaceX is doing a great job so far, but remember, their rocket is far, far from being man-rated. Do not underestimate the costs of completing this process. You can't just throw a couple of test rockets up and call it set. A man-rated rocket must be a proven model that will hopefully remain safe over dozens of flights. Their workforce is young and energetic, currently they are pouring their hearts and souls into these projects, working extremely long hours for below the industry standard in compensation. This is serving to reduce their costs at the moment, but whether you can maintain a workforce over the long term in such a state remains to be seen. So yes, right now, SpaceX looks very attractive. But as SpaceX attempts to enter human spaceflight and ages as a company, it is questionable whether they will be able to maintain this competitive advantage. | ||
BroboCop
United States373 Posts
On January 02 2011 04:00 InvalidID wrote: 1. I have no idea about this story, but it is plausible. I doubt it had much to do with his German heritage, as a number of US scientists were German immigrants from the former Nazi regime. von Braun, in fact, was arrested by the Nazis, and made a number of comments openly critical of the Nazi regime that would have gotten him shot, if he was not the most critical scientist in Germany at the time(he ran the V2 project). On the flip side, the rocket plants nominally under his control had brutal conditions and slave labor, that he claimed to be unable to control. 2. The private sector has always been involved for a long time. Space Systems Loral, Boeing, and Lockheed have been contracting in the industry for a long time, for both public sector and private sector clients. Where do you think your satellite TV comes from? NASA was successful but obscenely cost inefficient. The fact of the matter is that private industry can currently accomplish most space tasks, from satellite design, through payload launch for significantly less then NASA. Russia can send payloads for 1/4 of the cost of the space shuttle per kg. SpaceX has achieved 5%. 3. NASA budget has not been cut, but the democrats are forcing them to undergo significant reforms to focus on more cost effective research and launch methodologies. 1. The three-stage “Hermes” was the first postwar rocket that von Braun proposed. It was designed to enable a winged cargo glider to attain a range of 500 miles. But with the outbreak of war in Korea, von Braun had to focus his efforts on developing the medium range “Redstone” ballistic missile, which was later produced in quantity for the Army. In 1954, von Braun became involved in plans for an Earth satellite. Soon afterwards, President Eisenhower introduced the “Vanguard” Earth satellite program as part of the 1957-58 International Geophysical Year. Meanwhile, after von Braun became a naturalized U.S. citizen in 1955, the United States placed its highest priority on ballistic missile development, and the “Jupiter” intermediate range missile began under von Braun’s direction. Afterwards, he was named director of the Development Operations Division of the Army Ballistic Missile Agency, with direct responsibility for the Jupiter. After it was perfected, it became operational under Air Force control and NATO deployed it in Europe. source: http://www.nationalaviation.org/von-braun-wernher/ it isn't very well described, but basically von braun proposed it was shut down and the project was given to the navy who didn't know jack about rockets. 2. how i said the private sector had no reason to be involved until xxxx, i was referring to companies like spacex and virgin who are trying to commercialize space there is a difference between commercialization(IE human travel) and private sector being contractor-- and those companies you listed are are only a few--and depending on if you consider post WW2 rocket research there is a plethora of contractors including GE, chrysler, etc ,etc. 3. their research is more than cost effective for every $1 they has been spent towards space exploration has returned $7 (ie 700% return), nasa simply does shit right and thorough unlike 99.99% of other governmentally funded programs/agencies such as the: US post office. | ||
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