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In North Korea though it's not really religion they're following, but instead a Communist power hungry leader that's running the show. Correct me if I'm wrong. Two completely different conflicts
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On November 24 2010 17:20 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 16:39 Manit0u wrote:On November 24 2010 16:24 madcow305 wrote:
So, is there any actual way to get NK to stop doing stuff like this, without losing all of Korea in a nuclear fireball, and without taking decades to change the regime of NK into one more friendly to the West?
If we invade, the regime topples quickly, but then the nukes come out. Sure they don't have ICBMs to hit Los Angeles, but they do have enough range on their missiles to carry the nuclear warheads to Japan and Seoul. We invade, they nuke their neighbors, everyone loses.
If we don't invade, NK will keep pushing the envelope because they know nobody will do anything about it. Then, we'd have to gradually shift the regime through political pressure into one that stops shelling civilians and sinking ships. However, this will take decades to accomplish.
So basically, theres no easy way out of this one, is there? You know of course that the US aren't very good at this kind of stuff? Let us look at some numbers from their last action of this type, shall we? Invasion of Iraq: US forces: 4404 dead and 31827 wounded Coalition forces: 318 dead Contractors: 1315 dead Iraqui police and military allied with US: 11520 dead Civilians: 94902 — 103549 dead Enemy: 23984 dead And now there's a big chance of radical religious fanatics taking over the government there. Would you call this a success? Actually the invasion went rather smoothly. Those figures are from the occupation of Iraq. There might not be the same problem in N Korea because I don't think they have religious sects that hate each other like in Iraq. In most regions of the world the U.S. is pretty good at toppling governments and setting up puppets.
I dont think any american occupation of NK or any Caucasian occupation of that country will go well. From most of the Documentaries I have watched they really do not like americans and for people that are un educated any caucasian passes for american.
Really would need US to topple then South Korea or China to step in and restablish order.
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On November 24 2010 17:16 b_unnies wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 10:29 TyrantPotato wrote:On November 24 2010 10:16 TwoPac wrote:On November 24 2010 10:01 johanngrunt wrote:On November 24 2010 09:42 Frits wrote:
This is ridiculous, western society is built on morals and rights. If what you say is true we'd still be keeping slaves. Also, America did not win WW2, Russia did. Russia never would've pushed the Germans back without American and British Aid. Also America won in the pacific theatre and merely allowed Russia to make it Berlin first. ignorance. 90% of all german casualties in WW2 were against russian forces. think about that for every 1 soldier that died from non russian soldiers. 9 more died from russians. had hitler not broken their treaty with russia the outcome of the war would have been very different. essentially had they kept their alliance with russia. all the soldiers that were fighting on the eastern front would have been able to fight on the western or at least the large majority. meaning france quite frankly could have been completely occupied by the germans. it was the british australian and american armys that were getting shat on by the germans. however since it was germany that lost. the schools today can spin whatever shit they want to the students and they will eat it all up. and US allowed russia to take berlin? berlin fell before japan fell. so how can american be letting russia take berlin first if they are still preoccupied in the pacific.? This is such a clueless post. First of all Hitler keeping the alliance with Soviet Union? Lol? Hitler and Stalin are total enemies. MORE some than the Germans/West or Soviet/West. They have completely different ideologies. In fact before WW2, Hitler was fully willing and prepared to side with the democratic Western Europe against Soviet Union. However, countries like Britain and France etc didnt trust Hitler and rather side with Stalin. Hitler was annexing/remilitarizing territories, the Soviets BEGGED the West to do something about it. Britain and France didnt do anything about it for a couple reasons. They were busy dealing with the Abbysinian Crisis against Mussolino in Africa. Depression and didn't want to do any spending for fear of making the economy worse. British/French leaders didn't have the balls to do anything against Hitler. In fact we even have a NAME for this policy of British and French sucking Hitler off - "Appeasement" Guess what Stalin finally said? F that, let's have an agreement with the Hitler. NOT for an alliance, but to buy time and get some land for free as well (Poland). They did this for survival. Hitler always planned to invade Soviet Union eventually. Stalin knows. What did you think they were doing while Western Europe was being invaded? They were building up their military to defend against Hitler. The idea of Hitler and Stalin being allies is completely ludicrous. Problem is Stalin completely underestimated the time Hitler would take before invading Soviet Union, in fact Stalin was off by 2 whole years. Again, stating that Hitler should've waited until they take over Britain also shows your lack of knowledge. What was Hitler doing the entire time before invading Soviet Union? They took over Western Europe. Now what? Britain's the ONLY one left. Britain's an island, how are you going to get there? By sea. You can't just simply put some troops on a boat and hope they get to Britain safely. You NEED air dominance. That was the whole point of Battle of Britain. German air force vs Britain air force. We all know what happened. German lost that battle, meaning they lost their air force. So explain, how exactly is German going to invade Britain when their air force is gone and Britain's RAF is doing their pew-pews against German's navy? They need oil. Guess who had a shit ton of oil? Soviet Union. Guess what Stalin was doing? Massive military spending. You think Hitler rather wait until Soviet Union is completely militarized or attack now when they're still not ready? Second of all there is a HUGE difference between 90% of all German casualties caused by Russian forces and 90% of all German casualties in the Eastern Front. Hitler's long term invasion strategy for Soviet Union was absolutely atrocious. So atrocious in fact that he DIDN'T have one. He started the invasion during summer, he expected Soviet Union to fall before the winter of the same year. No seriously, Hitler, the entire Soviet Union to fall in less than half a year? This meant that Hitler didn't even bothered equipping his troops with winter gear. Alright, what Germany military leaders did during the beginning of Operation Barbarossa was impressive, guess what happened next? Hitler told them all to stfu and do things his way. Hitler's timeline was wrong and winter approaches. What happens if you walk around in summer clothes while it was -20 degrees in Moscow? I'd say you have a pretty damn high chance of lots of people dying. Second of all, he expected the Soviet Union to fall quickly, Hitler didn't even bother planning for a supply line. He thought he could simply use captured Soviet resources. That's where the scorched earth policy comes in. Stalin's smart, he destroyed his own resources so German war machine couldn't get any supplies for themselves. By the time winter comes in, he hasn't prepared proper supply vehicles to reinforce his soldiers so tons of vehicles got frozen, again stopping Hitler from reinforcing his troops. Same with tanks, they all got frozen, they needed to spend hours to heat up vehicles just so they can be used. If you already have limited heat, and they're being used for vehicles, what happens to your troops? Die even faster. What happens if your soldiers arent being fed? Again more troops starving and dying. A huge part of this goes to Hitler's stupidity for not thinking long term and allowing tons of casualties among his army rather than they all being killed by Soviets. These weren't even Hitler's worse mistakes. When Hitler was so close to invading Moscow, Hitler tells his generals, "Let's go take a tour around Ukraine LOLOLOL," when Moscow was a couple kilometres away. (Entire German army was heading west to where Moscow was, Hitler told military to head south to get some riches) Hitler gives Stalin a couple months to reinforce Moscow and turn it into a fortress as well as giving him the advantage of even colder temperatures when the Germans were all still walking around in shorts. Thus Germans lose the Battle of Moscow. Hitler could've ended all this drama if he simply just listened to his Generals and go for Moscow right away rather than taking a detour. If he takes Moscow now what? All of Stalin's industries were in Western Russia. Stalin destroyed all of them as part of his scorched earth policy to prevent Hitler from capturing them. This means they were still in the process of building all their industries in Eastern Russia. And yes, the West let Stalin get to Berlin first: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_to_BerlinUser was warned for this post
Most of the things you said was spot on! Had absolutely nothing to do with SK being attacked though... It's sad that NK would do such a thing. The attack was uncalled for and I hope it doesn't provoke a WW3. I want to live old  I'm like right in the age where you can get drafted..
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On November 24 2010 17:30 AyeH wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 17:16 b_unnies wrote:On November 24 2010 10:29 TyrantPotato wrote:On November 24 2010 10:16 TwoPac wrote:On November 24 2010 10:01 johanngrunt wrote:On November 24 2010 09:42 Frits wrote:
This is ridiculous, western society is built on morals and rights. If what you say is true we'd still be keeping slaves. Also, America did not win WW2, Russia did. Russia never would've pushed the Germans back without American and British Aid. Also America won in the pacific theatre and merely allowed Russia to make it Berlin first. ignorance. 90% of all german casualties in WW2 were against russian forces. think about that for every 1 soldier that died from non russian soldiers. 9 more died from russians. had hitler not broken their treaty with russia the outcome of the war would have been very different. essentially had they kept their alliance with russia. all the soldiers that were fighting on the eastern front would have been able to fight on the western or at least the large majority. meaning france quite frankly could have been completely occupied by the germans. it was the british australian and american armys that were getting shat on by the germans. however since it was germany that lost. the schools today can spin whatever shit they want to the students and they will eat it all up. and US allowed russia to take berlin? berlin fell before japan fell. so how can american be letting russia take berlin first if they are still preoccupied in the pacific.? This is such a clueless post. First of all Hitler keeping the alliance with Soviet Union? Lol? Hitler and Stalin are total enemies. MORE some than the Germans/West or Soviet/West. They have completely different ideologies. In fact before WW2, Hitler was fully willing and prepared to side with the democratic Western Europe against Soviet Union. However, countries like Britain and France etc didnt trust Hitler and rather side with Stalin. Hitler was annexing/remilitarizing territories, the Soviets BEGGED the West to do something about it. Britain and France didnt do anything about it for a couple reasons. They were busy dealing with the Abbysinian Crisis against Mussolino in Africa. Depression and didn't want to do any spending for fear of making the economy worse. British/French leaders didn't have the balls to do anything against Hitler. In fact we even have a NAME for this policy of British and French sucking Hitler off - "Appeasement" Guess what Stalin finally said? F that, let's have an agreement with the Hitler. NOT for an alliance, but to buy time and get some land for free as well (Poland). They did this for survival. Hitler always planned to invade Soviet Union eventually. Stalin knows. What did you think they were doing while Western Europe was being invaded? They were building up their military to defend against Hitler. The idea of Hitler and Stalin being allies is completely ludicrous. Problem is Stalin completely underestimated the time Hitler would take before invading Soviet Union, in fact Stalin was off by 2 whole years. Again, stating that Hitler should've waited until they take over Britain also shows your lack of knowledge. What was Hitler doing the entire time before invading Soviet Union? They took over Western Europe. Now what? Britain's the ONLY one left. Britain's an island, how are you going to get there? By sea. You can't just simply put some troops on a boat and hope they get to Britain safely. You NEED air dominance. That was the whole point of Battle of Britain. German air force vs Britain air force. We all know what happened. German lost that battle, meaning they lost their air force. So explain, how exactly is German going to invade Britain when their air force is gone and Britain's RAF is doing their pew-pews against German's navy? They need oil. Guess who had a shit ton of oil? Soviet Union. Guess what Stalin was doing? Massive military spending. You think Hitler rather wait until Soviet Union is completely militarized or attack now when they're still not ready? Second of all there is a HUGE difference between 90% of all German casualties caused by Russian forces and 90% of all German casualties in the Eastern Front. Hitler's long term invasion strategy for Soviet Union was absolutely atrocious. So atrocious in fact that he DIDN'T have one. He started the invasion during summer, he expected Soviet Union to fall before the winter of the same year. No seriously, Hitler, the entire Soviet Union to fall in less than half a year? This meant that Hitler didn't even bothered equipping his troops with winter gear. Alright, what Germany military leaders did during the beginning of Operation Barbarossa was impressive, guess what happened next? Hitler told them all to stfu and do things his way. Hitler's timeline was wrong and winter approaches. What happens if you walk around in summer clothes while it was -20 degrees in Moscow? I'd say you have a pretty damn high chance of lots of people dying. Second of all, he expected the Soviet Union to fall quickly, Hitler didn't even bother planning for a supply line. He thought he could simply use captured Soviet resources. That's where the scorched earth policy comes in. Stalin's smart, he destroyed his own resources so German war machine couldn't get any supplies for themselves. By the time winter comes in, he hasn't prepared proper supply vehicles to reinforce his soldiers so tons of vehicles got frozen, again stopping Hitler from reinforcing his troops. Same with tanks, they all got frozen, they needed to spend hours to heat up vehicles just so they can be used. If you already have limited heat, and they're being used for vehicles, what happens to your troops? Die even faster. What happens if your soldiers arent being fed? Again more troops starving and dying. A huge part of this goes to Hitler's stupidity for not thinking long term and allowing tons of casualties among his army rather than they all being killed by Soviets. These weren't even Hitler's worse mistakes. When Hitler was so close to invading Moscow, Hitler tells his generals, "Let's go take a tour around Ukraine LOLOLOL," when Moscow was a couple kilometres away. (Entire German army was heading west to where Moscow was, Hitler told military to head south to get some riches) Hitler gives Stalin a couple months to reinforce Moscow and turn it into a fortress as well as giving him the advantage of even colder temperatures when the Germans were all still walking around in shorts. Thus Germans lose the Battle of Moscow. Hitler could've ended all this drama if he simply just listened to his Generals and go for Moscow right away rather than taking a detour. If he takes Moscow now what? All of Stalin's industries were in Western Russia. Stalin destroyed all of them as part of his scorched earth policy to prevent Hitler from capturing them. This means they were still in the process of building all their industries in Eastern Russia. And yes, the West let Stalin get to Berlin first: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_to_BerlinUser was warned for this post Most of the things you said was spot on! Had absolutely nothing to do with SK being attacked though... It's sad that NK would do such a thing. The attack was uncalled for and I hope it doesn't provoke a WW3. I want to live old I'm like right in the age where you can get drafted..
If WW3 breaks out because China backs NK then I think most of the TL demographic is gonna be drafted.
I think I would be more afraid being a civilian in Korea than I would of being drafted.
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I hope China gets greedy and beats up NK too. I rather China demolish NK and take the land for themselves then get drafted into a war...
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Things would get intresting if South Korea would get tactical nukes back from US. If i remember correctly US did withdraw nukes from SK 15-20 years ago.
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On November 24 2010 17:47 AyeH wrote:
I hope China gets greedy and beats up NK too. I rather China demolish NK and take the land for themselves then get drafted into a war...
China needs a bit more space anyways; I feel bad for its agoraphobic citizens.
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On November 24 2010 17:30 AyeH wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 17:16 b_unnies wrote:On November 24 2010 10:29 TyrantPotato wrote:On November 24 2010 10:16 TwoPac wrote:On November 24 2010 10:01 johanngrunt wrote:On November 24 2010 09:42 Frits wrote:
This is ridiculous, western society is built on morals and rights. If what you say is true we'd still be keeping slaves. Also, America did not win WW2, Russia did. Russia never would've pushed the Germans back without American and British Aid. Also America won in the pacific theatre and merely allowed Russia to make it Berlin first. ignorance. 90% of all german casualties in WW2 were against russian forces. think about that for every 1 soldier that died from non russian soldiers. 9 more died from russians. had hitler not broken their treaty with russia the outcome of the war would have been very different. essentially had they kept their alliance with russia. all the soldiers that were fighting on the eastern front would have been able to fight on the western or at least the large majority. meaning france quite frankly could have been completely occupied by the germans. it was the british australian and american armys that were getting shat on by the germans. however since it was germany that lost. the schools today can spin whatever shit they want to the students and they will eat it all up. and US allowed russia to take berlin? berlin fell before japan fell. so how can american be letting russia take berlin first if they are still preoccupied in the pacific.? This is such a clueless post. First of all Hitler keeping the alliance with Soviet Union? Lol? Hitler and Stalin are total enemies. MORE some than the Germans/West or Soviet/West. They have completely different ideologies. In fact before WW2, Hitler was fully willing and prepared to side with the democratic Western Europe against Soviet Union. However, countries like Britain and France etc didnt trust Hitler and rather side with Stalin. Hitler was annexing/remilitarizing territories, the Soviets BEGGED the West to do something about it. Britain and France didnt do anything about it for a couple reasons. They were busy dealing with the Abbysinian Crisis against Mussolino in Africa. Depression and didn't want to do any spending for fear of making the economy worse. British/French leaders didn't have the balls to do anything against Hitler. In fact we even have a NAME for this policy of British and French sucking Hitler off - "Appeasement" Guess what Stalin finally said? F that, let's have an agreement with the Hitler. NOT for an alliance, but to buy time and get some land for free as well (Poland). They did this for survival. Hitler always planned to invade Soviet Union eventually. Stalin knows. What did you think they were doing while Western Europe was being invaded? They were building up their military to defend against Hitler. The idea of Hitler and Stalin being allies is completely ludicrous. Problem is Stalin completely underestimated the time Hitler would take before invading Soviet Union, in fact Stalin was off by 2 whole years. Again, stating that Hitler should've waited until they take over Britain also shows your lack of knowledge. What was Hitler doing the entire time before invading Soviet Union? They took over Western Europe. Now what? Britain's the ONLY one left. Britain's an island, how are you going to get there? By sea. You can't just simply put some troops on a boat and hope they get to Britain safely. You NEED air dominance. That was the whole point of Battle of Britain. German air force vs Britain air force. We all know what happened. German lost that battle, meaning they lost their air force. So explain, how exactly is German going to invade Britain when their air force is gone and Britain's RAF is doing their pew-pews against German's navy? They need oil. Guess who had a shit ton of oil? Soviet Union. Guess what Stalin was doing? Massive military spending. You think Hitler rather wait until Soviet Union is completely militarized or attack now when they're still not ready? Second of all there is a HUGE difference between 90% of all German casualties caused by Russian forces and 90% of all German casualties in the Eastern Front. Hitler's long term invasion strategy for Soviet Union was absolutely atrocious. So atrocious in fact that he DIDN'T have one. He started the invasion during summer, he expected Soviet Union to fall before the winter of the same year. No seriously, Hitler, the entire Soviet Union to fall in less than half a year? This meant that Hitler didn't even bothered equipping his troops with winter gear. Alright, what Germany military leaders did during the beginning of Operation Barbarossa was impressive, guess what happened next? Hitler told them all to stfu and do things his way. Hitler's timeline was wrong and winter approaches. What happens if you walk around in summer clothes while it was -20 degrees in Moscow? I'd say you have a pretty damn high chance of lots of people dying. Second of all, he expected the Soviet Union to fall quickly, Hitler didn't even bother planning for a supply line. He thought he could simply use captured Soviet resources. That's where the scorched earth policy comes in. Stalin's smart, he destroyed his own resources so German war machine couldn't get any supplies for themselves. By the time winter comes in, he hasn't prepared proper supply vehicles to reinforce his soldiers so tons of vehicles got frozen, again stopping Hitler from reinforcing his troops. Same with tanks, they all got frozen, they needed to spend hours to heat up vehicles just so they can be used. If you already have limited heat, and they're being used for vehicles, what happens to your troops? Die even faster. What happens if your soldiers arent being fed? Again more troops starving and dying. A huge part of this goes to Hitler's stupidity for not thinking long term and allowing tons of casualties among his army rather than they all being killed by Soviets. These weren't even Hitler's worse mistakes. When Hitler was so close to invading Moscow, Hitler tells his generals, "Let's go take a tour around Ukraine LOLOLOL," when Moscow was a couple kilometres away. (Entire German army was heading west to where Moscow was, Hitler told military to head south to get some riches) Hitler gives Stalin a couple months to reinforce Moscow and turn it into a fortress as well as giving him the advantage of even colder temperatures when the Germans were all still walking around in shorts. Thus Germans lose the Battle of Moscow. Hitler could've ended all this drama if he simply just listened to his Generals and go for Moscow right away rather than taking a detour. If he takes Moscow now what? All of Stalin's industries were in Western Russia. Stalin destroyed all of them as part of his scorched earth policy to prevent Hitler from capturing them. This means they were still in the process of building all their industries in Eastern Russia. And yes, the West let Stalin get to Berlin first: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_to_BerlinUser was warned for this post Most of the things you said was spot on! Had absolutely nothing to do with SK being attacked though... It's sad that NK would do such a thing. The attack was uncalled for and I hope it doesn't provoke a WW3. I want to live old I'm like right in the age where you can get drafted..
Go to college?
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On November 24 2010 17:22 Silentness wrote:
In North Korea though it's not really religion they're following, but instead a Communist power hungry leader that's running the show. Correct me if I'm wrong. Two completely different conflicts
The zeal with which North Koreans have been brainwashed into following their Dear Leader is strong enough to have religious comparisons. Kim Jong-Il and Kim Il-Sung may as well be their God and Jesus, sad as it is, and their hate for the Western world is just as dogmatic as the more hardcore members of the Middle East.
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my mom called me about it...she thinks I live in any area that's getting attacked...
why does n.k. always do stupid stuff for getting rice and supplies??
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I wonder if the US agreed to stop militarizing Taiwan, China would be more willing to help us out with North Korea..
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United States4053 Posts
On November 24 2010 18:32 ZerglingSoup wrote:
I wonder if the US agreed to stop militarizing Taiwan, China would be more willing to help us out with North Korea..
actually, i think that would be more likely to cause china to invade taiwan
in any case, i'm pretty sure China considers Taiwan a much more pressing issue than the Korean tension will ever be
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On November 24 2010 18:14 Tianx wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 17:22 Silentness wrote:
In North Korea though it's not really religion they're following, but instead a Communist power hungry leader that's running the show. Correct me if I'm wrong. Two completely different conflicts The zeal with which North Koreans have been brainwashed into following their Dear Leader is strong enough to have religious comparisons. Kim Jong-Il and Kim Il-Sung may as well be their God and Jesus, sad as it is, and their hate for the Western world is just as dogmatic as the more hardcore members of the Middle East.
Indeed state religion if there ever was one.
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I guess the best case scenario would be some high ranked officials in North Korea gather togather and stage a coup and overthrow the Kim regime/monarchy. Either that or the way that everybody fears. I mean, North Korea won't last long. They've been short on food for ages and the winter will only feel harsher for them as time goes.
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On November 24 2010 18:34 infinitestory wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 18:32 ZerglingSoup wrote:
I wonder if the US agreed to stop militarizing Taiwan, China would be more willing to help us out with North Korea.. actually, i think that would be more likely to cause china to invade taiwan in any case, i'm pretty sure China considers Taiwan a much more pressing issue than the Korean tension will ever be
Not necessarily. China could invade Taiwan whenever they wanted- but doing so would severely set them back both politically and economically. Certainly there are war mongers within the PRC, but they aren't the ones running the show anymore.
Anymore, the US-Taiwan military cooperation is an outdated political policy that hinders the kind of trust that China would otherwise like to place in the United States.
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if they didn't do anything about the sinking of a warship. I doubt much will be done about this.
BTW the conditions in NK are horrible and the majority of people there are brainwashed/scared into never questioning their "dear leader"
I feel bad for their citizens. If you dissent there they don't just throw you in a prison camp, they throw your whole family in. After watching a documentary with first hand accounts of those places they sound as bad as any concentration camps Ive heard of.
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On November 24 2010 18:39 don_kyuhote wrote:
I guess the best case scenario would be some high ranked officials in North Korea gather togather and stage a coup and overthrow the Kim regime/monarchy. Either that or the way that everybody fears. I mean, North Korea won't last long. They've been short on food for ages and the winter will only feel harsher for them as time goes.
You are absolutely right, but i doubt this wont happen.. sadly. They are so brainwashed and all the way loyal to Kim and the leadership.
IF and WHEN Kim dies, and his son will take the control, this might happen somehow. But im still pretty sure he is as loyal and brainwashed like rest of the generals, leaders etc.
I really can't see how to break this shit without attacking the soil, but i'm not an expert in any of this. Just my two cents.
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On November 24 2010 18:46 endlives wrote:
if they didn't do anything about the sinking of a warship. I doubt much will be done about this.
BTW the conditions in NK are horrible and the majority of people there are brainwashed/scared into never questioning their "dear leader"
I feel bad for their citizens. If you dissent there they don't just throw you in a prison camp, they throw your whole family in. After watching a documentary with first hand accounts of those places they sound as bad as any concentration camps Ive heard of.
Whats the name of this documentary or a link please.
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But if China doesn't back-up NK this time, wouldn't the retard be able to use nukes? I mean, if everyone goes against NK, what's left for them to do?
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Slightly off-topic, but I'm still confused as to why Kim Jong Il had his son go to middle school in an International School in Switzerland. I mean, I used to go to an International School here (incidentally at the same time as Kim Jong Un, but at a different one) and the one thing these schools are keen to promote is tolerance and international understanding. Doesn't seem like the right place for the future leader of NK to get educated, does it?
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EPT
