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On November 11 2010 19:37 Hanners wrote:
I don't really know what to say other than we don't share the same narrative.
You seem to have this idea that there's a steadfast, always true formula for the development of a person. Sadly, you're mistaken. People go through puberty at different ages and some people don't go through puberty at all.
Entering into contracts (especially legal ones) is a horrible example because people get roped and tricked into ones that are not good for them every day no matter what their age is.
The general development of a human being is pretty similar. The "formula" doesn't deviate so hugely that we cannot say children's brains mature over time and that maturation is very important to their cognitive and reasoning abilities. Sure there are outliers but thats why these ages are put high. I'm pretty sure I covered people who "dont go through puberty" at least as far as it deals with mental cognition.
Just because puberty doesn't end before the age of consent doesn't mean changes haven't occured.
So you're saying its just as easy to convince and adult as it is a child? People can always be roped into stupid things when they trust the person they signing the contract with. With children this sort of thing is exacerbated, they're even more likely to agree to something crazy if they trust the other person. Being an adult in that situation gives you leverage over a child they don't even understand.
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On November 11 2010 18:49 Kenderson wrote:
I'm sure getting raped is one of the most traumatizing experiences possible, especially as a child. That book should be banned because teaching people how to commit a very serious crime like that greatly increases the likelyhood of the crime being committed. So it's pretty simple, ban the book and less kids get raped. Either that or keep a very close eye on whoever buys it (not to mention the author lol).
Simplistic logic like this is why some people want to ban video games too. OMG kids see guns in a game and will go out and shoot everyone they know, better ban Starcraft!
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On November 11 2010 19:43 Romantic wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2010 19:33 Lachrymose wrote:On November 11 2010 19:22 Clues wrote:So we should determine who gets to have sex with who based on scholastic aptitude? IQ levels? Age is such an arbitrary method of measurement in comparison.
Also, we're now condemning people on suspicion of wrong-doing? Thank god we live in a world that suspicion alone does not constitute a crime. Did you read that? This doesn't have to do with scholastic aptitude or IQ, it has to do with brain chemistry and the act of PHYSICALLY GROWING UP. Your brain changes dramatically over childhood and into puberty; is after those changes have taken place do we then expect people to be able to think critically and objectivly -enter into contracts, etc. If they are of age and cannot do these things they are almost always considered mentally handicapped, and there are plenty of legal provisions to protect people like that from predators. I'm not sure where I condemned people on suspicion. I'm guessing its in my last paragraph. Are you saying that its ok to deceive people? To lie and cheat to get your way? I wouldn't say that sort of stuff is illegal but its certainly not what functioning societies are made of. Again, my largest issue with people saying that Adult-Child sexual relations can be mutual and consensual is that children are not adults, and they are highly susceptible to the suggestions and arguments of adults, without fully understanding the situation they put themselves in. your position still presupposes that sex is a big deal though. that a child being tricked or coerced or manipulated into a state of mind where they desire sex (this is different from tricked into sex) is the end of the world. that sex is like a contract. that you need to be protected from sex. that sex is above and beyond any other physical contact. i understand that you believe this and that is fine. can you understand it is possible to believe otherwise without being "sick"? Really? Even gotten pregnant or an STD from someone preying on you for a high five? Jesus kid you could at least try. I welcome the day that one of you boneheads manages to legalize underage contracts. I've always wanted an army of little kids legally bound to work for me for 10 cents an hour. Hell yeah. I'll just tell them signing the line is what grownups do.
<condescening tone>
<ad hominem attack>
On November 11 2010 19:40 Clues wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2010 19:33 Lachrymose wrote:
your position still presupposes that sex is a big deal though. that a child being tricked or coerced or manipulated into a state of mind where they desire sex (this is different from tricked into sex) is the end of the world. that sex is like a contract. that you need to be protected from sex. that sex is above and beyond any other physical contact.
i understand that you believe this and that is fine. can you understand it is possible to believe otherwise without being "sick"? No it doesn't. What I'm saying is that how can you be sure that is what the child wants? So you are ok with tricking and/or coercing a child into something? How is that right? When an adult interferes with a child for personal gain there is a problem. I dont' care what they're trying to get out of it. I will say that I think sex has more of an effect than you, but I cannot believe its ok to take advantage of the mental state we know as childhood.
how do you propose we stop people from coercing children then? make it illegal to talk to them? your issue isn't that somebody tricked a child for gain, your issue is that somebody did it for sex. are you going to look to the law when an adult tricks a child into swapping their slice of chocolate cake for an apple?
also note that i never said it was right to coerce a child into anything. my position is that the degree to which it is wrong is based on exactly what you're cheating this child out of. in the case of sex in this society that is A LOT. in the case of sex in a different theoretical society that is not necessarily much at all. for the record, in the case of $0.1/hour wages that is, again, a lot.
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might as well write a book "killing pedophiles and getting away with it"
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Well, dont know about anybody else, but im buying it. its hardly going to be an actual paedophiles charter, its probably very tongue in cheek
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On November 11 2010 19:55 Lachrymose wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2010 19:43 Romantic wrote:On November 11 2010 19:33 Lachrymose wrote:On November 11 2010 19:22 Clues wrote:So we should determine who gets to have sex with who based on scholastic aptitude? IQ levels? Age is such an arbitrary method of measurement in comparison.
Also, we're now condemning people on suspicion of wrong-doing? Thank god we live in a world that suspicion alone does not constitute a crime. Did you read that? This doesn't have to do with scholastic aptitude or IQ, it has to do with brain chemistry and the act of PHYSICALLY GROWING UP. Your brain changes dramatically over childhood and into puberty; is after those changes have taken place do we then expect people to be able to think critically and objectivly -enter into contracts, etc. If they are of age and cannot do these things they are almost always considered mentally handicapped, and there are plenty of legal provisions to protect people like that from predators. I'm not sure where I condemned people on suspicion. I'm guessing its in my last paragraph. Are you saying that its ok to deceive people? To lie and cheat to get your way? I wouldn't say that sort of stuff is illegal but its certainly not what functioning societies are made of. Again, my largest issue with people saying that Adult-Child sexual relations can be mutual and consensual is that children are not adults, and they are highly susceptible to the suggestions and arguments of adults, without fully understanding the situation they put themselves in. your position still presupposes that sex is a big deal though. that a child being tricked or coerced or manipulated into a state of mind where they desire sex (this is different from tricked into sex) is the end of the world. that sex is like a contract. that you need to be protected from sex. that sex is above and beyond any other physical contact. i understand that you believe this and that is fine. can you understand it is possible to believe otherwise without being "sick"? Really? Even gotten pregnant or an STD from someone preying on you for a high five? Jesus kid you could at least try. I welcome the day that one of you boneheads manages to legalize underage contracts. I've always wanted an army of little kids legally bound to work for me for 10 cents an hour. Hell yeah. I'll just tell them signing the line is what grownups do. <condescening tone> <ad hominem attack> Show nested quote +On November 11 2010 19:40 Clues wrote:On November 11 2010 19:33 Lachrymose wrote:
your position still presupposes that sex is a big deal though. that a child being tricked or coerced or manipulated into a state of mind where they desire sex (this is different from tricked into sex) is the end of the world. that sex is like a contract. that you need to be protected from sex. that sex is above and beyond any other physical contact.
i understand that you believe this and that is fine. can you understand it is possible to believe otherwise without being "sick"? No it doesn't. What I'm saying is that how can you be sure that is what the child wants? So you are ok with tricking and/or coercing a child into something? How is that right? When an adult interferes with a child for personal gain there is a problem. I dont' care what they're trying to get out of it. I will say that I think sex has more of an effect than you, but I cannot believe its ok to take advantage of the mental state we know as childhood. how do you propose we stop people from coercing children then? make it illegal to talk to them? your issue isn't that somebody tricked a child for gain, your issue is that somebody did it for sex. are you going to look to the law when an adult tricks a child into swapping their slice of chocolate cake for an apple? also note that i never said it was right to coerce a child into anything. my position is that the degree to which it is wrong is based on exactly what you're cheating this child out of. in the case of sex in this society that is A LOT. in the case of sex in a different theoretical society that is not necessarily much at all. for the record, in the case of $0.1/hour wages that is, again, a lot.
Completely legitimate points, but you can brush them off if you can't face 'em, fine with me.
Are you literally trying to sound smart by saying societies pass laws based on what they find reprehensible?
You've discovered something nobody had figured out before. I applaud you.
As for it being completely subjective and\or meaningless other than society, I highly disagree. If society valued children as property of the parents that would not be a meaningless value, it would have severe negative consequences for the child.
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On November 11 2010 19:55 Lachrymose wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2010 19:43 Romantic wrote:On November 11 2010 19:33 Lachrymose wrote:On November 11 2010 19:22 Clues wrote:So we should determine who gets to have sex with who based on scholastic aptitude? IQ levels? Age is such an arbitrary method of measurement in comparison.
Also, we're now condemning people on suspicion of wrong-doing? Thank god we live in a world that suspicion alone does not constitute a crime. Did you read that? This doesn't have to do with scholastic aptitude or IQ, it has to do with brain chemistry and the act of PHYSICALLY GROWING UP. Your brain changes dramatically over childhood and into puberty; is after those changes have taken place do we then expect people to be able to think critically and objectivly -enter into contracts, etc. If they are of age and cannot do these things they are almost always considered mentally handicapped, and there are plenty of legal provisions to protect people like that from predators. I'm not sure where I condemned people on suspicion. I'm guessing its in my last paragraph. Are you saying that its ok to deceive people? To lie and cheat to get your way? I wouldn't say that sort of stuff is illegal but its certainly not what functioning societies are made of. Again, my largest issue with people saying that Adult-Child sexual relations can be mutual and consensual is that children are not adults, and they are highly susceptible to the suggestions and arguments of adults, without fully understanding the situation they put themselves in. your position still presupposes that sex is a big deal though. that a child being tricked or coerced or manipulated into a state of mind where they desire sex (this is different from tricked into sex) is the end of the world. that sex is like a contract. that you need to be protected from sex. that sex is above and beyond any other physical contact. i understand that you believe this and that is fine. can you understand it is possible to believe otherwise without being "sick"? Really? Even gotten pregnant or an STD from someone preying on you for a high five? Jesus kid you could at least try. I welcome the day that one of you boneheads manages to legalize underage contracts. I've always wanted an army of little kids legally bound to work for me for 10 cents an hour. Hell yeah. I'll just tell them signing the line is what grownups do. <condescening tone> <ad hominem attack> Show nested quote +On November 11 2010 19:40 Clues wrote:On November 11 2010 19:33 Lachrymose wrote:
your position still presupposes that sex is a big deal though. that a child being tricked or coerced or manipulated into a state of mind where they desire sex (this is different from tricked into sex) is the end of the world. that sex is like a contract. that you need to be protected from sex. that sex is above and beyond any other physical contact.
i understand that you believe this and that is fine. can you understand it is possible to believe otherwise without being "sick"? No it doesn't. What I'm saying is that how can you be sure that is what the child wants? So you are ok with tricking and/or coercing a child into something? How is that right? When an adult interferes with a child for personal gain there is a problem. I dont' care what they're trying to get out of it. I will say that I think sex has more of an effect than you, but I cannot believe its ok to take advantage of the mental state we know as childhood. how do you propose we stop people from coercing children then? make it illegal to talk to them? your issue isn't that somebody tricked a child for gain, your issue is that somebody did it for sex. are you going to look to the law when an adult tricks a child into swapping their slice of chocolate cake for an apple? also note that i never said it was right to coerce a child into anything. my position is that the degree to which it is wrong is based on exactly what you're cheating this child out of. in the case of sex in this society that is A LOT. in the case of sex in a different theoretical society that is not necessarily much at all. for the record, in the case of $0.1/hour wages that is, again, a lot.
On the subject of coercsion how often to lawyers and parents coerce their children into legal arbitration with intent to sue for damages criminally?
The sample pool we are given for a society is corrupt. I don't know why I keep coming back to this thread but I do want to address people who make valid points like this.
And when it comes to truth and validity who is more capable of fantasty an adult or child? Whichever the case both are capable of either miscontrueing truth and/or lying.
Personally I've had sex with an 8 year old.
I mean, I was 8 too at the time don't get uncomfortable.
While you were playing doctor, we played fuck.
On November 11 2010 20:01 Romantic wrote:
Are you literally trying to sound smart by saying societies pass laws based on what they find reprehensible?
You've discovered something nobody had figured out before. I applaud you.
As for it being completely subjective and\or meaningless other than society, I highly disagree. If society valued children as property of the parents that would not be a meaningless value, it would have severe negative consequences for the child.
Totally, and that is how it is now. I don't see kids charging rape I see parents on their childs behalf preping their kid with the kleenex before the trial. And this is the same legal system that we can thank the boyloving greeks for coming up with, this democracy really really is a tired old whore.
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im just ... really shocked.. what the fuck has this world come to.
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On November 11 2010 20:08 ayababa wrote:
im just ... really shocked.. what the fuck has this world come to.
Business as usual.
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Free speech? Is it free speech to aid and guide rapists/murderers now? There's no difference between pedophiles and rapists; and even, oftentimes, murderers.
They're sick people with psycopathic tendencies, how is it a good idea to push them forward in the wrong direction, make them embrace the broken sociological bubble that they live in?
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Amazon pulled the book down. It now gives a 404 if you try to access it.
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On November 11 2010 19:55 Lachrymose wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2010 19:43 Romantic wrote:On November 11 2010 19:33 Lachrymose wrote:On November 11 2010 19:22 Clues wrote:So we should determine who gets to have sex with who based on scholastic aptitude? IQ levels? Age is such an arbitrary method of measurement in comparison.
Also, we're now condemning people on suspicion of wrong-doing? Thank god we live in a world that suspicion alone does not constitute a crime. Did you read that? This doesn't have to do with scholastic aptitude or IQ, it has to do with brain chemistry and the act of PHYSICALLY GROWING UP. Your brain changes dramatically over childhood and into puberty; is after those changes have taken place do we then expect people to be able to think critically and objectivly -enter into contracts, etc. If they are of age and cannot do these things they are almost always considered mentally handicapped, and there are plenty of legal provisions to protect people like that from predators. I'm not sure where I condemned people on suspicion. I'm guessing its in my last paragraph. Are you saying that its ok to deceive people? To lie and cheat to get your way? I wouldn't say that sort of stuff is illegal but its certainly not what functioning societies are made of. Again, my largest issue with people saying that Adult-Child sexual relations can be mutual and consensual is that children are not adults, and they are highly susceptible to the suggestions and arguments of adults, without fully understanding the situation they put themselves in. your position still presupposes that sex is a big deal though. that a child being tricked or coerced or manipulated into a state of mind where they desire sex (this is different from tricked into sex) is the end of the world. that sex is like a contract. that you need to be protected from sex. that sex is above and beyond any other physical contact. i understand that you believe this and that is fine. can you understand it is possible to believe otherwise without being "sick"? Really? Even gotten pregnant or an STD from someone preying on you for a high five? Jesus kid you could at least try. I welcome the day that one of you boneheads manages to legalize underage contracts. I've always wanted an army of little kids legally bound to work for me for 10 cents an hour. Hell yeah. I'll just tell them signing the line is what grownups do. <condescening tone> <ad hominem attack> Show nested quote +On November 11 2010 19:40 Clues wrote:On November 11 2010 19:33 Lachrymose wrote:
your position still presupposes that sex is a big deal though. that a child being tricked or coerced or manipulated into a state of mind where they desire sex (this is different from tricked into sex) is the end of the world. that sex is like a contract. that you need to be protected from sex. that sex is above and beyond any other physical contact.
i understand that you believe this and that is fine. can you understand it is possible to believe otherwise without being "sick"? No it doesn't. What I'm saying is that how can you be sure that is what the child wants? So you are ok with tricking and/or coercing a child into something? How is that right? When an adult interferes with a child for personal gain there is a problem. I dont' care what they're trying to get out of it. I will say that I think sex has more of an effect than you, but I cannot believe its ok to take advantage of the mental state we know as childhood. how do you propose we stop people from coercing children then? make it illegal to talk to them? your issue isn't that somebody tricked a child for gain, your issue is that somebody did it for sex. are you going to look to the law when an adult tricks a child into swapping their slice of chocolate cake for an apple? also note that i never said it was right to coerce a child into anything. my position is that the degree to which it is wrong is based on exactly what you're cheating this child out of. in the case of sex in this society that is A LOT. in the case of sex in a different theoretical society that is not necessarily much at all. for the record, in the case of $0.1/hour wages that is, again, a lot.
Stopping the sale of this book can only help the society, why argue against that?
And thanks for explaining how laws work, no one was really sure why they're made. It's much more clearer now.
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On November 11 2010 20:14 mikado wrote:
Free speech? Is it free speech to aid and guide rapists/murderers now? There's no difference between pedophiles and rapists; and even, oftentimes, murderers.
They're sick people with psycopathic tendencies, how is it a good idea to push them forward in the wrong direction, make them embrace the broken sociological bubble that they live in?
Your second paragraph makes a lot of assumptions that are simply not true. Just like any other impulse or tendency, not many exist that devote the whole of their being to said impulse or tendency but they do exist.
Which, if you ask me, makes the true nature of pedophilia that much more repulsive.
edit: Grammar.
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If the wrongness of the impulse (either from a sociological or a scientific point of view) is not in dispute, the assumptions I made stand. Having studied developmental and cognitive psychology as part of my degree, that simply is the scientific consensus ; it's a diagnosable psychiatric disorder.
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who the fuck published this book >_>
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There is no reason to censor this book. Everyone, including pedophiles are responsible for their own actions.
Since "But this book told me to molest children" won't hold up in any court of law (Much like "Doom 2 made me shoot up my school"), this book isn't guilty of inciting a crime.
Everyone calling for it's ban should also be advocating banning violent first person shooters (Murder simulators, as some call them.)
Will this book probably cause more harm then good? Sure, probably. Fortunately, that is not the criteria we use to limit speech.
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On November 11 2010 19:56 Kolean.Tellan wrote:
might as well write a book "killing pedophiles and getting away with it"
I'd read that!
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On November 11 2010 20:29 mikado wrote:
If the wrongness of the impulse (either from a sociological or a scientific point of view) is not in dispute, the assumptions I made stand. Having studied developmental and cognitive psychology as part of my degree, that simply is the scientific consensus ; it's a diagnosable psychiatric disorder.
Clearly, you're an expert.
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On November 11 2010 20:29 mikado wrote:
If the wrongness of the impulse (either from a sociological or a scientific point of view) is not in dispute, the assumptions I made stand. Having studied developmental and cognitive psychology as part of my degree, that simply is the scientific consensus ; it's a diagnosable psychiatric disorder.
I'm the Queen of England.
I have studied knighting and hand waving as a part of my degree.
Also, the wrongness of the impulse IS in dispute. Many people in this thread seem to think that the idea of lusting after children is okay as long as no action results from the thought. And we all know how thoughts have nothing to do with action 
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EPT
