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On November 03 2010 06:19 Mindcrime wrote:
Communism has never been attempted. None of those states ever attempted to transition to a classless stateless society. None of them ever claimed to.
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The revolutions that led to the creation of these governments were led by people spouting communist ideals and promising communism. These revolutions are the part of the attempted communism. That they never succeeded in a getting to the point of having a stateless, classless society is merely evidence of the non-feasibility of communism.
Spouting its ideals has proven to be one of most dangerous and destructive things we have witnessed recently. My understanding is that more people died in the aftermath of these "communist revolutions" than died in WW2.
I'll try to find a reference for that....brb
EDIT: This pretty much sums it up: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Book_of_Communism
I would also note that no one really knows how many people died in China and it may be as high as 80 million rather than the 60 million estimated here.
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On November 03 2010 06:19 Mindcrime wrote:
Communism has never been attempted. None of those states ever attempted to transition to a classless stateless society. None of them ever claimed to.
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You need to go and actually read the Communist manifesto. Marx and Engels envision a central socialist government to pave the way toward Communism. So, yes, plenty of states have attempted the transition, except they completely failed. Because Marx and Engels simply do not provide any guidance as to how the Socialist government is to "wither away" into Communism.
Go read their literature and try to find it. You won't.
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On November 03 2010 06:24 Romantic wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2010 06:21 domovoi wrote:On November 03 2010 06:16 Romantic wrote:I manage to do it whenever I go to work  . We're creative people. It becomes an issue when you claim to "collectively-own" every single business in the name of all workers. This is a large problem and it should be eliminated at every turn!  We have found agreement
Let's talk practicalities. How would you implement "collective ownership"? You can't simply give all workers a share of the business, because that's just private ownership en masse, and workers will be inclined to trade their shares.
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Presidents can only veto bills that the legislature passes. If he does, they need to override it with two-thirds vote (I think, it would be sad if I got this wrong).
Well I'm not certain myself so, fair enough I suppose I'll take your word for it.
I think all the people here bashing on socialism need to take a step back and re-evaluate some things.
On a side note: How awesome would it be if Palin was put into office, then you may just find the totalitarian government you've all been hating on. Also, I predict the first people she will order to have hung: Colbert then Stewart, not in that order. 
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On November 03 2010 06:29 domovoi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2010 06:24 Romantic wrote:On November 03 2010 06:21 domovoi wrote:On November 03 2010 06:16 Romantic wrote:I manage to do it whenever I go to work . We're creative people. It becomes an issue when you claim to "collectively-own" every single business in the name of all workers. This is a large problem and it should be eliminated at every turn! We have found agreement Let's talk practicalities. How would you implement "collective ownership"? You can't simply give all workers a share of the business, because that's just private ownership en masse, and workers will be inclined to trade their shares.
Maybe he has the Venezuelan and Zimbabwean (whatever the adjective form of Zimbabwe is) models in mind. Those are working so well right now......
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I think all the people here bashing on socialism need to take a step back and re-evaluate some things.
Let's be clear. The socialism that conservatives rail about is not Marx and Engels' "socialism," but rather, wealth redistribution, which all capitalist countries engage in.
The socialism I'm bashing is the socialism described by Marx and Engels in the Communist manifesto which our local Communists claim has never been implemented. Methinks they've never actually read it or they're unfamiliar with Russian history.
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On November 03 2010 06:07 HadronCollid wrote:Show nested quote +
You're defending Marxism and Socialism now? Awesome. I'd love you to cite the successes, and what you find endearing in those political philosophies.
Cuba. Have you ever been? I have and it's incredible. I would say they have done fairly well as a communist/socialist society considering they were blockaded by the US for a *few* years. Edit: Thank goodness Obama still has his veto power. I hope he uses it as frequently as Bush did to pass whatever needs to get past the horde of fat republican elephants.
Regarding Cuba, I have never been there but I see this comparison about Cuba:
"Grinding poverty where half the population survive on less than $1 a day."
Good gardeners in Miami can make $20 an hour.
And don't forget the big success of "attempted" communism in North Korea either:
Pretty good comparison of attempted communism vs democracy.
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On November 03 2010 06:27 domovoi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2010 06:19 Mindcrime wrote:
Communism has never been attempted. None of those states ever attempted to transition to a classless stateless society. None of them ever claimed to.
:| You need to go and actually read the Communist manifesto. Marx and Engels envision a central socialist government to pave the way toward Communism. So, yes, plenty of states have attempted the transition, except they completely failed. Because Marx and Engels simply do not provide any guidance as to how the Socialist government is to "wither away" into Communism. Go read their literature and try to find it. You won't.
Marx envisioned socialism as the stage preceding communism, but establishing a totalitarian government is, in no way, an attempt at creating a classless, stateless society.
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On November 03 2010 06:36 Savio wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2010 06:07 HadronCollid wrote:
You're defending Marxism and Socialism now? Awesome. I'd love you to cite the successes, and what you find endearing in those political philosophies.
Cuba. Have you ever been? I have and it's incredible. I would say they have done fairly well as a communist/socialist society considering they were blockaded by the US for a *few* years. Edit: Thank goodness Obama still has his veto power. I hope he uses it as frequently as Bush did to pass whatever needs to get past the horde of fat republican elephants. Regarding Cuba, I have never been there but I see this comparison about Cuba: "Grinding poverty where half the population survive on less than $1 a day." Good gardeners in Miami can make $20 an hour.
Wow. So money is everything?? O...k. Cuba has one of the highest literacy rates in the world, but i guess that's irrelevant because an illiterate innumerate gardener can make more money, and then spend that money on OVERPRICED services and OVERPRICED goods. Oh, and lets not forget that ALL cubans have health-care and subsidised education (university) as well, WUT?!
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On November 03 2010 05:34 Gahlo wrote:
While I despise the two party system, I'm going straight dem. I'd rather see a government in synergy doing things, good or bad, than stuck doing NOTHING. Mistakes can be fixed, good things can be kept, wasted time is irreplaceable.
That and the republican candidates for me are crummy this election. =\
I've never really understood this. Why vote completely for one party, as opposed to on principles? The whole bipartisan "lesser of two evils" thing is why we always get such crummy candidates.
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yeah but what about those $$$$?????????????
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On November 03 2010 06:40 Mindcrime wrote:
Marx envisioned socialism as the stage preceding communism, but establishing a totalitarian government is, in no way, an attempt at creating a classless, stateless society.
"If the proletariat during its contest with the bourgeoisie is compelled, by the force of circumstances, to organise itself as a class, if, by means of a revolution, it makes itself the ruling class, and, as such, sweeps away by force the old conditions of production, then it will, along with these conditions, have swept away the conditions for the existence of class antagonisms and of classes generally, and will thereby have abolished its own supremacy as a class."
"1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.
2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.
4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
5. Centralization of credit in the banks of the state, by means of a national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly.
6. Centralization of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the state.
7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the state; the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
8. Equal obligation of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country.
10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, etc."
How do you get all this without a strong central government? How do you enforce the "obligation of all to work"? How do you confiscate property? How do you ensure "equable distribution" of the populace? What do you do with the bourgeois?
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Cubans can read, but can they express themselves freely?
The Cuban government has been accused of numerous human rights abuses including torture, arbitrary imprisonment, unfair trials, and extrajudicial executions (also known as "El Paredón").[87] The Human Rights Watch alleges that the government "represses nearly all forms of political dissent" and that "Cubans are systematically denied basic rights to free expression, association, assembly, privacy, movement, and due process of law".[88]
Cuba was the second biggest prison in the world for journalists in 2008, second only to the People's Republic of China, according to the Committee to Protect Journalists (CPJ), an international NGO.[89] As a result of ownership bans, computer ownership rates are among the world's lowest.[90] The right to use the Internet is granted only to selected people and they are monitored.[90][91] Connecting to the Internet illegally can lead to a five-year prison sentence.
Cuban dissidents face arrest and imprisonment. In the 1990s, Human Rights Watch reported that Cuba's extensive prison system, one of the largest in Latin America, consists of some 40 maximum-security prisons, 30 minimum-security prisons, and over 200 work camps.[92] According to Human Rights Watch, political prisoners, along with the rest of Cuba's prison population, are confined to jails with substandard and unhealthy conditions.[92]
Citizens cannot leave or return to Cuba without first obtaining official permission.[88]
Let me know when the citizens of the United States are fleeing by boat to other countries to escape oppression.
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On November 03 2010 06:46 trainRiderJ wrote:Cubans can read, but can they express themselves freely? Show nested quote +The Cuban government has been accused of numerous human rights abuses including torture, arbitrary imprisonment, unfair trials, and extrajudicial executions (also known as "El Paredón").[87] The Human Rights Watch alleges that the government "represses nearly all forms of political dissent" and that "Cubans are systematically denied basic rights to free expression, association, assembly, privacy, movement, and due process of law".[88]
Cuba was the second biggest prison in the world for journalists in 2008, second only to the People's Republic of China, according to the Committee to Protect Journalists (CPJ), an international NGO.[89] As a result of ownership bans, computer ownership rates are among the world's lowest.[90] The right to use the Internet is granted only to selected people and they are monitored.[90][91] Connecting to the Internet illegally can lead to a five-year prison sentence.
Cuban dissidents face arrest and imprisonment. In the 1990s, Human Rights Watch reported that Cuba's extensive prison system, one of the largest in Latin America, consists of some 40 maximum-security prisons, 30 minimum-security prisons, and over 200 work camps.[92] According to Human Rights Watch, political prisoners, along with the rest of Cuba's prison population, are confined to jails with substandard and unhealthy conditions.[92]
Citizens cannot leave or return to Cuba without first obtaining official permission.[88] Let me know when the citizens of the United States are fleeing by boat to other countries to escape oppression.
Acutally those Americans just drive to Canada. And it's been happening since the Vietnam war. I know several.
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On November 03 2010 06:40 HadronCollid wrote:
Wow. So money is everything?? O...k. Cuba has one of the highest literacy rates in the world, but i guess that's irrelevant because an illiterate innumerate gardener can make more money, and then spend that money on OVERPRICED services and OVERPRICED goods. Oh, and lets not forget that ALL cubans have health-care and subsidised education (university) as well, WUT?!
Cubans, especially outside of Havana, are poor. Many of them would leave Cuba if emigration weren't a capital crime. The government is totalitarian and does not tolerate dissenting opinion.
Cuba has a good education system and apparently a decent healthcare system. But you can get that pretty easily without the massive poverty and totalitarianism if you follow the European model.
If Cuba is the best example of Communism, Communism's poor reputation is well-deserved.
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On November 03 2010 06:47 HadronCollid wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2010 06:46 trainRiderJ wrote:Cubans can read, but can they express themselves freely? The Cuban government has been accused of numerous human rights abuses including torture, arbitrary imprisonment, unfair trials, and extrajudicial executions (also known as "El Paredón").[87] The Human Rights Watch alleges that the government "represses nearly all forms of political dissent" and that "Cubans are systematically denied basic rights to free expression, association, assembly, privacy, movement, and due process of law".[88]
Cuba was the second biggest prison in the world for journalists in 2008, second only to the People's Republic of China, according to the Committee to Protect Journalists (CPJ), an international NGO.[89] As a result of ownership bans, computer ownership rates are among the world's lowest.[90] The right to use the Internet is granted only to selected people and they are monitored.[90][91] Connecting to the Internet illegally can lead to a five-year prison sentence.
Cuban dissidents face arrest and imprisonment. In the 1990s, Human Rights Watch reported that Cuba's extensive prison system, one of the largest in Latin America, consists of some 40 maximum-security prisons, 30 minimum-security prisons, and over 200 work camps.[92] According to Human Rights Watch, political prisoners, along with the rest of Cuba's prison population, are confined to jails with substandard and unhealthy conditions.[92]
Citizens cannot leave or return to Cuba without first obtaining official permission.[88] Let me know when the citizens of the United States are fleeing by boat to other countries to escape oppression. Acutally those Americans just drive to Canada. And it's been happening since the Vietnam war. I know several.
You missed the point. They drove there freely. It was their choice.
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On November 03 2010 06:47 HadronCollid wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2010 06:46 trainRiderJ wrote:Cubans can read, but can they express themselves freely? The Cuban government has been accused of numerous human rights abuses including torture, arbitrary imprisonment, unfair trials, and extrajudicial executions (also known as "El Paredón").[87] The Human Rights Watch alleges that the government "represses nearly all forms of political dissent" and that "Cubans are systematically denied basic rights to free expression, association, assembly, privacy, movement, and due process of law".[88]
Cuba was the second biggest prison in the world for journalists in 2008, second only to the People's Republic of China, according to the Committee to Protect Journalists (CPJ), an international NGO.[89] As a result of ownership bans, computer ownership rates are among the world's lowest.[90] The right to use the Internet is granted only to selected people and they are monitored.[90][91] Connecting to the Internet illegally can lead to a five-year prison sentence.
Cuban dissidents face arrest and imprisonment. In the 1990s, Human Rights Watch reported that Cuba's extensive prison system, one of the largest in Latin America, consists of some 40 maximum-security prisons, 30 minimum-security prisons, and over 200 work camps.[92] According to Human Rights Watch, political prisoners, along with the rest of Cuba's prison population, are confined to jails with substandard and unhealthy conditions.[92]
Citizens cannot leave or return to Cuba without first obtaining official permission.[88] Let me know when the citizens of the United States are fleeing by boat to other countries to escape oppression. Acutally those Americans just drive to Canada. And it's been happening since the Vietnam war. I know several.
Good riddance to the hippies. Anyone who thinks that the US oppresses its citizens needs to put the Kool Aid down.
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Communism is literally impossible for humans unless we are all telepathically linked and act as part of a singular organism. There is no other way to always make group decisions and always be looking out for the common good over self interest.
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On November 03 2010 06:44 domovoi wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 03 2010 06:40 Mindcrime wrote:
Marx envisioned socialism as the stage preceding communism, but establishing a totalitarian government is, in no way, an attempt at creating a classless, stateless society. "If the proletariat during its contest with the bourgeoisie is compelled, by the force of circumstances, to organise itself as a class, if, by means of a revolution, it makes itself the ruling class, and, as such, sweeps away by force the old conditions of production, then it will, along with these conditions, have swept away the conditions for the existence of class antagonisms and of classes generally, and will thereby have abolished its own supremacy as a class." "1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax. 3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance. 4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.5. Centralization of credit in the banks of the state, by means of a national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly.6. Centralization of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the state. 7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the state; the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan. 8. Equal obligation of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country. 10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, etc." How do you get all this without a strong central government? How do you enforce the "obligation of all to work"? How do you confiscate property? How do you ensure "equable distribution" of the populace? What do you do with the bourgeois?[
You may as well be arguing that the entire western world was attempting communism in the 1800s because industrial capitalism, like socialism, precedes communism in Marx's view.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.google.com/url?source=imgres&ct=img&q=http://www.pauliddon.net/img/n%2520korea%2520satellite.jpg&sa=X&ei=C4TQTJ3HKIyksQO8q_j7AQ&ved=0CAQQ8wc&usg=AFQjCNFn724mvXfL7pgsnk0VRnkElIY1Iw)
