--Edit Seems like that was their birthday present to me... just noticed that today is my BD... havent even got the time to think about that, damn adulthood is already showing up... >_> -- Mod Edit: If you don't know anything about German IP law don't reply to this thread. You are not helping.
First of all let me warn, this is not a post about if copyright is right or wrong, so keep your point of view on that matter at a minimum, I need help and the last thing i want is this thread going to the toiled because of that old debate.
I will post my point of view on the matter just so you can have a point of reference on what I would accept as a choice and what not.
I agree with copyrights. I know that when you worked hard for your work you want to be acknowledged and you want to earn your money. I personally download stuff from time to time (if I say I dont i would be lying) but I do make sure to purchase (most of the time) the stuff I enjoy.
Am I doing something illegal? -- Due to how the current laws are built, yes I am and I am prepared for the consequences.
Do I agree with those laws? -- Not completely, they do not belong on this modern society without some modification (which the companies dont want to do because they want to maintain the status quo)
I completely disagree with how some companies use copyrights to squeeze money out of random people even when what they do and the way of doing it is morally wrong but is completely legal. (like saying that you have to pay up to $10,000 "per song" in cases where the person downloaded an album over the internet, no matter how you put it more than $50 per song is already way too much considering that a cd is like $10~$15...)
I am a Dominican guy living in Germany. Never have dealt with copyright issues until now so I need some guidance. I will consult with an attorney soon but I want to have some quick reference on where am I standing and if I have some options available before spending too much money (which I dont have).
Short Version: I might be getting sued for copyright infringement. I received a "cease and desist" with a $936 Eur bill, if i dont sign and pay they will bring me to court.
I think is either: a) an error, since i did not download/copy the file in question (explained on the TL;DR) b) a scam (very unlikely, also explained on the TL;DR)
Either way i need to get my ass moving because i only have 1 week to send this back signed or take my stand.
Need to know which are my options, to decide what I will do.
I got a letter yesterday from a company film called "Constantin Films" stating that I infringed a copyright by downloading a movie called "Blood" that belongs to them.
The letter contains date of the download (march of this year) my IP at the time and for how long the download was running. First I find odd that they are sending a letter now about something that happened almost a full year ago, but what the heck...
The letter continues asking my signature for a "cease and desist" and a bill for $936 Eur. I assume that as soon as I sign that I would declare myself guilty and would HAVE to pay the bill, which 1) I think is stupid having to pay almost $1000 for a movie and 2) I dont have that much money even if I would just say "fuck it, i will pay it"...
The other issue is, while I do download anime series, and at that time I did download an anime called "Blood+" by recommendation of a friend I never downloaded a movie called "Blood", I dont have that file and it has never been in my PC. So I assume they made a mistake.
Another thing is that, there are 2 computers behind my router so I cannot say for sure if the other pc contains that file (it is the computer of my wife so I really doubt it).
Help needed:
So, now i need to know which should be my firsts steps on this. As I mentioned I have never dealt with this before so not sure how to proceed.
I cannot assume this is a scam (which my wife mildly suggested at some point) for several reasons, like my personal info displayed on the letter, and the law firm issuing the letter being very real (i googled a bit on them).
I have read online and some people say that I can ignore letters sent by law firms like that since they are scare tactics but I cannot ignore court summonings... note: this letter is just from a law firm.
Others say they searched for a lawyer right away and when they confronted the company the company didnt want go to court because their case wouldnt hold up, due to lack of evidence and other things that is too much to mention here. My problem with this is I do not want to start paying for a lawyer right away because I do not have much money.
Conclusion: What are the first steps that i need to take for handling this issue?
I am willing to pay for a lawyer if needed but I want to be really sure i need one before i go that path because i cannot simply waste my money, specially now.
I also need to know if I go the aggressive way, hire a lawyer and go fighting for my rights since I am sure i didnt download that file, or should I go in a more reserved way, until I have more information on this since I cannot rule out the possibility of a scam.
See if you have any friends or family friends who are lawyers who can advise you for free. I'm inclined to say that even if you can't afford a lawyer, you should at the very least contact them and let them know they made a mistake, that you never downloaded that movie. I know little enough about American law and even less about German law, but I would agree that you can absolutely ignore this, but then legal action MAY follow - however it is far from certain. They may send out hundreds of these letters and just hope to get enough people paying scared to pay their legal costs.
Doubt it's a scam, but take it with a grain of salt anyways.
Honestly, if it were me, I'd ignore it. Especially since you're sure you didn't do it.
You basically need to weigh the options:
1) Ignore it. They don't give you summons to court. Nothing happens. 2) Ignore it. They give you summons to court. You have to pay lots of legal fees. Maybe win, maybe lose, either way spend a lot of money. 3) Pay the money. You know the amount you lose, and it's all over after paying.
You have to weigh the case they have against you: Did they actually catch you downloading this? If you didn't, who knows what 'evidence' they have against you. If they don't have sufficient, they probably won't give you a summons.
Honestly, it's a tough decision to make. You either gamble and win hard or lose hard, or don't gamble and accept a smaller lose.
I have read online and some people say that I can ignore letters sent by law firms like that since they are scare tactics but I cannot ignore court summonings... note: this letter is just from a law firm.
definitely true, but if they took the time to send you a letter, there is a fairly decent chance a summons will follow.
Others say they searched for a lawyer right away and when they confronted the company the company didnt want go to court because their case wouldnt hold up, due to lack of evidence and other things that is too much to mention here. My problem with this is I do not want to start paying for a lawyer right away because I do not have much money.
if you ignore them, court comes calling, theyre that invested at that point that they might just say 'hey, fuck you. you didnt want to take the easy way out and now were going to make an example of you', even if you approach them and say you'll pay the original thing instead of going through the hassle
then again, europe is whacky and your laws could be totally different. call and see if you could get legal advice for cheap/free. i sure as shit wouldnt dick around on an internet forum with something this serious
If you're feeling ill, go to a doctor, if you're about to get sued, go to a lawyer etc. Internet fora are great but not a substitute for an experts opinion. I don't know about germany, but here there are ways for a free consultation/short advice.
Dont see constantin films anywhere... they have no rights to the anime series which is the one i guiltily admit have in my PC.
So again as far as I can tell they have no business with me, or so I think.
--Edit
@Hawk I will seek for a lawyer but i just wanted to have some info in my hands because here i might have to pay some hundred eurs just to consult one. >_>
@Grettin I used Azureus at that time, i havent downloaded for a while since i am working on some little programs that i wrote so i dont have much time to watch stuff on the PC anymore.
@blix agree and will do, just needed to know somethings before hand to not go like a complete ignorant (which i am) to the lawyer who i will probably have to pay by the hour... the quicker the session goes the better for me i guess, and going without no info will call for wasting time with some basic questions that might get answered here already
This is probably what they are talking about like you said.
On September 30 2010 02:03 Blix wrote: If you're feeling ill, go to a doctor, if you're about to get sued, go to a lawyer etc. Internet fora are great but not a substitute for an experts opinion. I don't know about germany, but here there are ways for a free consultation/short advice.
there is some special "Unterlassungserklärung" where you say: "i wont do it in the future but this does not mean i did what you accuse me of". This is the best way to go. Just google it or look for some older c't magazine from heise.de .
I think you are the victim of this lawyer company operating in England and Germany that was recenty attacked by 4chan, named ACS:Law . They make 'profit' by sending this kind of harrassment letters to people and making them pay to avoid court. They can get your IP and what files were you downloading via a formal request to your internet service provider, the information then gets filtered for movies belonging to certain producers, and then they mail this letters and reap the proffit. It sounds a lot like good ol' mafia extorsion but with a legal makeup.
If this is the case, what I'd first advise is to make sure that downloading that file is indeed a clear cut crime in Germany. For instance, in Spain, regardless of the constant media propaganda, it is NOT. And if it is the case, I'd personally not pay them and bluff going to court, to see if they retract (which they probably will). Specifically, ACS:Law has been discovered (due to the 4chan attack) to be in deep financial problems, so I don't think they are in any position to risk pursuing long trials themselves. Appart from the fact that they'll probably be facing serious charges of mis-protection of personal information very soon.
On September 30 2010 02:03 Blix wrote: If you're feeling ill, go to a doctor, if you're about to get sued, go to a lawyer etc. Internet fora are great but not a substitute for an experts opinion. I don't know about germany, but here there are ways for a free consultation/short advice.
Smartest guy in this thread.
Correct...
btw Blix check my edited answer 1 or 2 posts above this. I agree with you, just need some info.
On September 30 2010 02:14 NukeTheBunnys wrote: I have only gotten warning about copywrite infringement, but as other have said, get a lawyer.
I also think its interesting what you named the thread, it sounds like you are expecting to get sued more
Well thats the worst i can expect, and considering that i am not completely willing to pay $936 eur, for a movie (even though i might change my opinion) I think the course that will follow is that they will want to sue me.
So I am getting ready for the worse even though i hope i can solve this without reaching there.
On September 30 2010 02:15 Ender985 wrote: I think you are the victim of this lawyer company operating in England and Germany that was recenty attacked by 4chan, named ACS:Law . They make 'profit' by sending this kind of harrassment letters to people and making them pay to avoid court. They can get your IP and what files were you downloading via a formal request to your internet service provider, the information then gets filtered for movies belonging to certain producers, and then they mail this letters and reap the proffit. It sounds a lot like good ol' mafia extorsion but with a legal makeup.
If this is the case, what I'd first advise is to make sure that downloading that file is indeed a clear cut crime in Germany. For instance, in Spain, regardless of the constant media propaganda, it is NOT. And if it is the case, I'd personally not pay them and bluff going to court, to see if they retract (which they probably will). Specifically, ACS:Law has been discovered (due to the 4chan attack) to be in deep financial problems, so I don't think they are in any position to risk pursuing long trials themselves. Appart from the fact that they'll probably be facing serious charges of mis-protection of personal information very soon.
In any case, I wish you good luck!
Tbh, this is not the first time people are actually getting these kind of letters. Should get some more info and ask your lawyer about this.
Seriously, I don't really know anything about German laws BUT I would take this to court and just show them the proof that you didn't even download THEIR movie and then they would look like complete and utter morons. You can't be fined for downloading something else since that company isn't there demanding you to pay.
I would seriously be happy if the same thing happened to me, they're obviously complete retards and would get assraped in court.
EDIT: As someone else stated you should also make a VERY angry phonecall to your ISP for giving out information without: 1) Telling you they did so. and 2) Not verifying the company that wanted the info had legitimate source to ask for it.
Maybe you can get a couple of moths for free after this.
EDIT2: Where did you download the anime from? Would be nice to know which sites are infested by Anti-piracy retards.
You should definitely see a lawyer. If you are low on money you can go to any "Amtsgericht" (local district court) and apply for "Beratungshilfe" (financial aid for legal advice). No shame there.
One major thing to keep in mind: Are you sure you are sued for simply "downloading" a movie or was it for sharing/uploading the movie. Does the software you used for downloading automatically share your downloads with others?
It might seem as a minor technicality, but it greatly affects the amount of money at stake.
Here in the netherlands we have a govt funded organisation who would help with something like this for free; if it's a matter of a simple letter they'll help, otherwise they send you to a lawyer (perhaps there is something similar in germany?). Also asking a lawyer if you need a lawyer should in itself be free (although the answer may not always be honest )
If I recall correctly there is a law that if it is your first infringement and it was only a minor one like on song or film the amount they can charge you must not exceed 100€, but your lawyer will tell you.
I am not a lawyer but I still offer the echoed legal advice given here of, seek a lawyer.
For your own protection I would be very careful not to make any statements/phonecalls or anything to the company threatening you because it can only harm you, seek legal council first. For example, if they call you up and complain just hang up the phone, don't tell them something like "I didn't download 'Blood' I downloaded 'Blood+' ". Don't give them any free info at all. I really hope you do not end up paying any money, and if you are able to follow your legal councils advice you have a good chance of not paying anything. good luck!
It is never a good idea to ignore this kind of letters. They have pretty much caught you downloading their copy righted works and have solid evidence. Your best to respond and ask for a settlement discount since both of you wont want to deal with attorney fees and the court. Just my 2 cents, dont take this as legal advice.
From what i understand, he did NOT download that specific movie but a anime with almost the same name ( but with different copyright owners) so i guess it is not that simple in his case!
On September 30 2010 02:36 JQL wrote: . They have pretty much caught you downloading their copy righted works and have solid evidence. Your best to respond and ask for a settlement discount since both of you wont want to deal with attorney fees and the court..
Actually how are the courts set up in germany? If he were being sued in america for $1000 they would only be able to sue him in small claims court which if anything would heavily favor the little guy, court fees would be somewhere around 50-100$, well worth the high chance of such a case being thrown out entirely. Are german courts configured similarly?
Right now your opponent's defenses are weak from having just rushed you and trying to take out your econ. You need to make an aggressive timing attack! Counter-sue your ISP company for revealing your personal information to said Film company.
If you take it to the court, which i suggest you do... be a total ...hole and suggest any possibility.
really it's super doubtful they can actually prove you did download that file. I mean for gods sake
there's even a generator that generates fake pictures of you being a peer and you can select which type of torrent/software/os its taken on. And its years old!. It is almost impossible for them to accurately prove you are/were guilty so If you push it they will no doubt either lose or turn down the case. But that's only if u can get a lawyer that understands these things and there have been people unlucky or stupid to end up paying the bully.
Edit: to conclude I also want to mention that because of this reason, most cases in sweden revolving this have had warrant to take the accused computer and they pretty much strike at once
I'm not sure about German law, but in the UK just proving that you IP downloads the file isn't sufficient evidence to prove you infringed copyright. There are varying methods that they need to use to prove it, either finding it on your computer or using a bullet-proof method of detection that your computer downloaded that file (not your network). As I say though, this may not be pertinent in Germany :/ As others have said, get a lawyer!
I dont really support piracy, but these bully tactics really shouldn't be rewarded.
"We can afford going to court. We know you dont. Pay us xxx or we will sue you for xxx * 3 !"
Bullshit.
1. They dont have any proof. A screenshot or filename proves nothing. They rely entirely on the fact that normal people do not have the time/money/effort to go to court over this. 2. What do they want next? "Yeah we did not make enough money this month, lets send out some letters threatening people to pay us.... OR ELSE!"
Scary thing is its actually working. I wish you the best of luck against these bullies.
On September 30 2010 02:56 Zappymong wrote: I'm not sure about German law, but in the UK just proving that you IP downloads the file isn't sufficient evidence to prove you infringed copyright. There are varying methods that they need to use to prove it, either finding it on your computer or using a bullet-proof method of detection that your computer downloaded that file (not your network). As I say though, this may not be pertinent in Germany :/ As others have said, get a lawyer!
This
And since you mentioned this i also want to say that you can spoof pretty much anything. spoofing your MAC adress for an example takes about a minute if you know what you're looking for and what to do (which anyone familiar with a computer can do)
edit:
On September 30 2010 02:56 mgj wrote: I dont really support piracy, but these bully tactics really shouldn't be rewarded.
"We can afford going to court. We know you dont. Pay us xxx or we will sue you for xxx * 3 !"
Bullshit.
1. They dont have any proof. A screenshot or filename proves nothing. They rely entirely on the fact that normal people do not have the time/money/effort to go to court over this. 2. What do they want next? "Yeah we did not make enough money this month, lets send out some letters threatening people to pay us.... OR ELSE!"
Scary thing is its actually working. I wish you the best of luck against these bullies.
even if they got image proof as i posted above it can easily be faked
On September 30 2010 02:42 No_Roo wrote: Actually how are the courts set up in germany? If he were being sued in america for $1000 they would only be able to sue him in small claims court which if anything would heavily favor the little guy, court fees would be somewhere around 50-100$, well worth the high chance of such a case being thrown out entirely. Are german courts configured similarly?
you see this is the kind of info that im looking for, if that is the case here in germany as well then i dont mind paying around that sum or whatever just to get them off me and avoid paying lawyers and the hassle of going to court, but those assholes are asking for almost $1000 which i dont have and dont think fair. I will look on to it...
@miramax thats another good info, i will go and check on that as soon as possible. I do not speak fluent german which is another reason why im eager to solve this without going to court and stuff but here is part of the document:
Unsere Mandantshaft hat festgestellt, dass Sie fuer das illegale Angebot zum Herunterladen von urheberrechtlich geschutzten Bild-/Tonaufnahmen ueber die Tauschboerse bittorrent verantwortlich
the bold was not added, thats the way it is in the document.
then they mention:
Die Gerichte gehen bei illegalen Angeboten urheberrechtlich geschuetzter Werke in Taushboersen von mindestens EUR 10.000,- Streitwert pro Werk aus: -- big quote here from Amtsgerich Muenchen, 19.10.207,AZ. 142 C 19823/07
@Postaldude I understand... also i do find it doubtful that they can even prove that I downloaded the file considering that i have 2 pcs behind this router and this router has wireless connection on which even though password protected i have seen guys cracking wireless pass with my own eyes... thats the reason i mentioned earlier that their case might not hold up in court, but i might be wrong as i have never been to court before.
Were you using any proxies, or just downloading straight to your computer? My dad received a notice from our ISP (at the time) that there was illegally downloaded files on his computer (Rosetta Stone), which he had downloaded while he was messing around with different privacy methods. The ISP only requested that he delete it, and that no further action would be taken.
If you have not implemented any methods of "covering" your tracks on the internet, then I'd say talk your ISP first. Maybe you can clear it up.
If you have any possible access to free legal advice, I'd take it, even if it is just a friend or relative. They may know something of value.
What jurisdiction is this in? I'm assuming Germany? I think the jurisdiction could be crucial because maybe some laws in your country don't apply to the laws of wherever the corporation is domiciled.
Furthermore, I would think that you don't want to admit to anything that you could potentially avoid doing as this may come and bite you in the ass later on. By signing and paying you are basically saying "yes I am admitting to breaking the law" and who knows if that could be a possible element to another more serious charge.
Definitely get a lawyer. Don't get frugal with the money since it's better to be safe than sorry. Just as you are thinking that spending this money is a pain, it will also be a pain for the other party and they may not even go forth with the action. Get a lawyer... now.
On September 30 2010 02:48 squintz wrote: Right now your opponent's defenses are weak from having just rushed you and trying to take out your econ. You need to make an aggressive timing attack! Counter-sue your ISP company for revealing your personal information to said Film company.
funniest thing i have read in a while xD
-- they can take away my money, they can take away my pride but they will never take away my sense of humor. thanks for lightening up the mood. :D
@Postaldude I understand... also i do find it doubtful that they can even prove that I downloaded the file considering that i have 2 pcs behind this router and this router has wireless connection on which even though password protected i have seen guys cracking wireless pass with my own eyes... thats the reason i mentioned earlier that their case might not hold up in court, but i might be wrong as i have never been to court before.
As I tried to point out (i suck at forums really i hate discussing on it im much better verbally) there is no way they can prove you are actually guilty unless they confiscated your computer and found the file there, no way. Only one to blame if you lost the case is yourself/lawyer for not pushing this
edit: It's like being accused of murder when they have no other proof than a hearsay of you having 'motives' to commit. It's so silly
edit2: oh also i found something really interesting read you can do to give you more hope...
Not sure if mentioned but just go to a lawyer to consult, here it costs like 60-100 euros, maybe even less. The lawyer would tell you how you should proceed. If I would be in your shoes I would consult with a lawyer before paying the fine or hiring a lawyer.
On September 30 2010 03:13 PaD wrote: Did you contact them and tell them you never downloaded the movie Blood and maybe they are making a mistake ?
They might not know its a mistake and will drop the case, no one wants to sue when they know they are losing.
They are suing to squeese money. But if the accused has any knowledge about this stuff he will overwhelm them and there's nothing they can do but turn it down, it's basicly a cheap and really cheap way of getting extra monies which in all is all what they care about
@Postaldude I understand... also i do find it doubtful that they can even prove that I downloaded the file considering that i have 2 pcs behind this router and this router has wireless connection on which even though password protected i have seen guys cracking wireless pass with my own eyes... thats the reason i mentioned earlier that their case might not hold up in court, but i might be wrong as i have never been to court before.
As I tried to point out (i suck at forums really i hate discussing on it im much better verbally) there is no way they can prove you are actually guilty unless they confiscated your computer and found the file there, no way. Only one to blame if you lost the case is yourself/lawyer for not pushing this
Well the other way they can prove it is if he admits guilt, which is probably the most common way people lose a case like this. A lot of people have a habit of admitting to perceived lesser crimes to get away from a bigger charge, while that might work on your girlfriend it is a very poor strategy in a courtroom.
Outside of those two situations I'm not aware of any way they can prove guilt.
"No baby I didn't sleep with her, we were drunk and kissed each other." Result: girlfriend might give you a walk.
"No I wasn't driving 85mph in a 65mph zone, I was only driving 68mph" result: you just admitted to speeding and are found guilty in a court room.
By that extension, do not go into a court room and say "I didn't download Blood, I downloaded Blood+" The judge will be much less sympathetic to you since you have at that point admitted to unauthorized downloading of some other copyrighted material.
@Postaldude I understand... also i do find it doubtful that they can even prove that I downloaded the file considering that i have 2 pcs behind this router and this router has wireless connection on which even though password protected i have seen guys cracking wireless pass with my own eyes... thats the reason i mentioned earlier that their case might not hold up in court, but i might be wrong as i have never been to court before.
As I tried to point out (i suck at forums really i hate discussing on it im much better verbally) there is no way they can prove you are actually guilty unless they confiscated your computer and found the file there, no way. Only one to blame if you lost the case is yourself/lawyer for not pushing this
Well the other way they can prove it is if he admits guilt, which is probably the most common way people lose a case like this. A lot of people have a habit of admitting to perceived lesser crimes to get away from a bigger charge, while that might work on your girlfriend it is a very poor strategy in a courtroom.
Outside of those two situations I'm not aware of any way they can prove guilt.
"No baby I didn't sleep with her, we were drunk and kissed each other." Result: girlfriend might give you a walk.
"No I wasn't driving 85mph in a 65mph zone, I was only driving 68mph" result: you just admitted to speeding and are found guilty in a court room.
By that extension, do not go into a court room and say "I didn't download Blood, I downloaded Blood+" The judge will be much less sympathetic to you since you have at that point admitted to unauthorized downloading of some other copyrighted material.
Indeed It's all about being persistent and know the fact that they are the weak side not you. Also i like your analogy
also i do find it doubtful that they can even prove that I downloaded the file considering that i have 2 pcs behind this router and this router has wireless connection on which even though password protected i have seen guys cracking wireless pass with my own eyes... thats the reason i mentioned earlier that their case might not hold up in court, but i might be wrong as i have never been to court before.
Actually this is rather bad for you since in germany you can be held legally responsible for any law infrigements done via your connection. Meaning that the person whose name is on the contract with the isp (i assume this to be you) is the one thats gonna be held accountable no matter who used that connection. This is another reason why you should really try hard(er) to protect your network. That beeing said, if you happen to NOT be this person you can just laugh at their demands no matter if you did download that movie or not since you are not the legally accountable person. Although said person might get a little angry at you in that case
Apart from that you should definitely not give into their demands since the rule dudel linked to applies if this is your first offense so you couldnt be charged for more than 100 € anyway. And for that you still would need to be proven guilty first, which i personally deem unlikely since this sounds completely like one of those scare-mails in which the demanding party has no legally sound proof whatsoever.
@Postaldude I understand... also i do find it doubtful that they can even prove that I downloaded the file considering that i have 2 pcs behind this router and this router has wireless connection on which even though password protected i have seen guys cracking wireless pass with my own eyes... thats the reason i mentioned earlier that their case might not hold up in court, but i might be wrong as i have never been to court before.
As I tried to point out (i suck at forums really i hate discussing on it im much better verbally) there is no way they can prove you are actually guilty unless they confiscated your computer and found the file there, no way. Only one to blame if you lost the case is yourself/lawyer for not pushing this
Well the other way they can prove it is if he admits guilt, which is probably the most common way people lose a case like this. A lot of people have a habit of admitting to perceived lesser crimes to get away from a bigger charge, while that might work on your girlfriend it is a very poor strategy in a courtroom.
Outside of those two situations I'm not aware of any way they can prove guilt.
"No baby I didn't sleep with her, we were drunk and kissed each other." Result: girlfriend might give you a walk.
"No I wasn't driving 85mph in a 65mph zone, I was only driving 68mph" result: you just admitted to speeding and are found guilty in a court room.
By that extension, do not go into a court room and say "I didn't download Blood, I downloaded Blood+" The judge will be much less sympathetic to you since you have at that point admitted to unauthorized downloading of some other copyrighted material.
Do you really think that if he admits to have pirated some other movie the judge will rule in the favor of another company ?
I can tell to the op from experience, you want to avoid lawyers and sueing they cost a lot of money, time and stress.
Well the other way they can prove it is if he admits guilt, which is probably the most common way people lose a case like this. A lot of people have a habit of admitting to perceived lesser crimes to get away from a bigger charge, while that might work on your girlfriend it is a very poor strategy in a courtroom.
Outside of those two situations I'm not aware of any way they can prove guilt.
"No baby I didn't sleep with her, we were drunk and kissed each other." Result: girlfriend might give you a walk.
"No I wasn't driving 85mph in a 65mph zone, I was only driving 68mph" result: you just admitted to speeding and are found guilty in a court room.
By that extension, do not go into a court room and say "I didn't download Blood, I downloaded Blood+" The judge will be much less sympathetic to you since you have at that point admitted to unauthorized downloading of some other copyrighted material.
true, I was not planning on saying those things on the court, but i needed to mention those things here to avoid flame wars about whether i did it or not. I am true to myself, and i just mentioned it in here to clarify but I am aware that "everything you say might be used against you in court" so I will take as much advice as you guys throw at me as possible. :D
Are you 100% positive you didn't download it? I mean, it was a whole year ago, and people are forgetful.
It'd REALLY suck to go to court thinking you never downloaded it but did and then bam, evidence comes up showing that you did download it and you're screwed.
On September 30 2010 03:30 Pandonetho wrote: Are you 100% positive you didn't download it? I mean, it was a whole year ago, and people are forgetful.
It'd REALLY suck to go to court thinking you never downloaded it but did and then bam, evidence comes up showing that you did download it and you're screwed.
Pretty sure that looks like a movie they should pay you the 938 euros in damages for having watched anyways, at least if one is allowed to judge by it's cover.
On September 30 2010 03:30 Pandonetho wrote: Are you 100% positive you didn't download it? I mean, it was a whole year ago, and people are forgetful.
It'd REALLY suck to go to court thinking you never downloaded it but did and then bam, evidence comes up showing that you did download it and you're screwed.
I am 100% sure.
Stupid question, but are you sure any of your friends haven't downloaded anything like that or someone you might know.
If I was in your situation, I'd go to a Lawyer. There are plenty of law firms available in England. I would imagine it's the same in Germany. You need to find out if it's a scam or not. At that point, your lawyer will help you with everything else.
Edit: There's no way you'll end up alone in this situation if you seek help.
On September 30 2010 03:40 Fantistic wrote: If I was in your situation, I'd go to a Lawyer. There are plenty of law firms available in England. I would imagine it's the same in Germany. You need to find out if it's a scam or not. At that point, your lawyer will help you with everything else.
Edit: There's no way you'll end up alone in this situation if you seek help.
From what i've read on the internet etc its a hellhole in england with piracy compared to anywhere else pretty much. ISPs freely work with the big companies in court to get you convicted and the ISPs dont stand up at all against ridiculous money hungry companies and give them all info they can on your connection etc.
I had this happen to me in the states a year ago. I was pretty scared myself at first as they wanted over 2000$ sent to them within a 2 week period. I was 19 at the time and didn't have ANY money to throw at them. After I calmed down a bit and talked to my neighbor, who is a police officer, he told me I had nothing to worry about and here's why: The companies hire law firms sometimes to send out letters in order to scare people to pay immediately, they usually have no intention of going to court because it's not worth it for you or them. They simply expect some people to fork over some cash and go about their businesses. They hire the law firm because with that name behind it, it scares the crap out of people.
Some collection agencies do the same type of thing out here, which is illegal. They will call you'r home pretending to be an officer of the law and tell you to either pay you'r full amount owed to them or they will be raiding you'r home with a warrant for you'r arrest. This was working for a while until people started calling the REAL police and finding out what was going on. Many of these collection services have been dismantled and owners thrown in jail.
I really think you're getting the same B.S. I was getting for small file download's. When I never responded I got 3 more letters every 2 weeks claiming that this was my final chance and the wording was getting firmer and actually pretty rude. I finally called them and told them that I would like to take them up in court and my lawyer would be contacting them soon, (which I made up) and never heard from them again.
I don't want to tell you what to do and I am no one to say that the letter you received is faulty but I really think you'r wife is right in a way. It's most likely not a scam but it is just a load of crap to make some money. Contact someone who knows there stuff and don't take anyone here's word for it, you could get screwed. Find a lawyer and get a consultation, which is many times free and they will enlighten you to what you'r options are and if this can actually be a problem for you.
Good luck, and I hope things turn out fine. Remember, get a consultation from a lawyer!
On September 30 2010 03:30 Pandonetho wrote: Are you 100% positive you didn't download it? I mean, it was a whole year ago, and people are forgetful.
It'd REALLY suck to go to court thinking you never downloaded it but did and then bam, evidence comes up showing that you did download it and you're screwed.
I am 100% sure.
Stupid question, but are you sure any of your friends haven't downloaded anything like that or someone you might know.
Thats where i cannot answer for sure.
Update on the situation:
It seems that the law firm involved with this, started out recently with this activity, their name is Waldorf Frommer, and there is a LOT of germans getting those letters curiously for the exact same amount of 956,00 (i mistyped it before).
As far as i can tell they give almost exact information on how to proceed, they mentioned that the cost for a lawyer on Amtsgericht is ~$10 (if im not misinterpreting then thats hell of a funny price for a lawyer)
So i feel more confident now. I thank all of you for being so informative, if you want to continue discussing just go ahead i will be going for now (lots to read and get in order), will check the thread later.
I'm sorry for you, and tbh, I'm a little paranoid myself now O.o Although I limit myself to downloading music from the internet using mediafire/rapidshare/what-have-you, and I rarely torrent, I'm afraid D: Can they sue me for DLing from those places? Or is it just torrents? I wonder what are the odds of this happening to a random person... 1 in a 1000? less?
Can you post that letter you got on TL so we can have a closer look. Did you try googling looking for similar cases where others who also got sued by Constantin Films?
On September 30 2010 03:50 LunarDestiny wrote: Can you post that letter you got on TL so we can have a closer look. Did you try googling looking for similar cases where others who also got sued by Constantin Films?
it is a 20+ pages letter and even though i can scan it i dont think anybody has the time/patience to go through all of it.
I did search for Constatin films and nothing relevant showed up but see some posts above i got a link from one of the TL'ers that contains a german forum with several ppl complaining about the same thing from the same law firm and all the dates are from now September 2010.
So im not alone and i think with confidence that this will be sorted soon, I will however talk with a lawyer and get prepared for the worse anyways just in case.
On September 30 2010 03:50 Latham wrote: I'm sorry for you, and tbh, I'm a little paranoid myself now O.o Although I limit myself to downloading music from the internet using mediafire/rapidshare/what-have-you, and I rarely torrent, I'm afraid D: Can they sue me for DLing from those places? Or is it just torrents? I wonder what are the odds of this happening to a random person... 1 in a 1000? less?
Pretty obvious scam, first thing I would do is call said firm asking if they sent me a letter. The only thing you will discuss in this conversation is whether or not they did. If it did come from them seek legal help. Do not agree to anything.
Don't be too afraid to take this to court. Lesser courts are very receptive to any evidence you may bring up. In your case you could for example show them how easy it is to forge this information (See link earlier in this thread.) Make sure to explain in detail how it is done and why having an IP address tied to a filename doesn't mean anything. These lesser courts are not as strict/official as you may think, but also have to deal with such a wide variety of cases that they likely won't be experts on this subject.
Don't admit to downloading anything as stated before, show the court that this company is using scare tactics to trick a large amount of people into paying, and show them how this evidence could be forged. You should be fine. Disclaimer: I'm not an expert on German law obviously. Always consult a lawyer, although you don't necessarily need to use one to defend yourself ($$$))
Paying 1000 euro for downloading a movie, what? I use torrents all the time and by that count I owe various media companies enough money I'd be in debt for the rest of my life, that can't really be right.
Like someone mentioned before, if its possible try to contact the firm that sent the letter and confirm that they did indeed send it, just so you can be 100% sure its not a random scam, just a simple yes or no from them, nothing else, I would also have a few words with my ISP about information sharing.
You should write a letter back demanding evidence that you did in fact download the movie. They probably used a simple word filter and saw that you were downloading blood+ which is perfectly legal since Japanese films are not protected by German copyright law. I don't think they can get a court hearing off the keyword 'blood' being in one of your download files.
On September 30 2010 04:27 Zanzabar Haberdasher wrote: Send the letter back and enclose a picture of a cat. Make it clear that the picture of the cat is their payment.
Note: I'm basing basicly everything here from what I've read on TorrentFreak.com.
From what I've read on TorrentFreak through lots of various articles these kind of letters are being mass sent out regularly in UK and more recently in Germany. These are law firms that together with movie companies have these schemes simply to make quick easy money and they have no intention of getting bogged down in court with any of this, especially since it would mean they would run the risk of actually losing. Which would quickly put an end to this right away. It's in their interest to not take you to court. So far I've not heard of a single person being taken to court after a letter like this.
So it's most likely not a scam letter, but neither is it to be taken seriously. Just because there is an actual law firm behind it doesn't mean there is actual proof and/or threat to you.
I'm going to tell you what I would have done in the situation, which by no means means you have to do the same. That's completely up to you. It's your money, time and, ultimately, pride. 1. Write a letter back to them saying you have not downloaded Blood, challenge them to take you to court. Most likely they will not do so, possibly replying with more threat letters. 2. Currently Sony has the licence for distribution of Blood+, according to Wikipedia, "in several regions". Find out if this applies for Germany at the time you downloaded it, since it's very common for animes to be unlicenced and free to download outside Japan up until there is an English DVD version released. Should be easy to find out by contacting Sony about it. 3. Assuming you get taken to court, and assuming Blood+ was licenced in Germany at that time (ie, worst case scenario), don't mention Blood+ at all. It's their job to prove that you downloaded the movie Blood, and since you didn't they will probably have problems proving that beyond reasonable doubt.
Just a note, it's very common that lawyers will make sure you receive the lawsuit notice on holidays. In America, Christmas and thanksgiving in particular.
On September 30 2010 04:27 Zanzabar Haberdasher wrote: Send the letter back and enclose a picture of a cat. Make it clear that the picture of the cat is their payment.
If you asked that question half a year ago I could tell you for sure (I had a professor in my Vertragsrecht classes who specialized in Software rights). Someone asked the same question. I'm pretty sure you can wait for something that they do before you react. Even if it goes to court itdoes not seem likely that you loose. But usually those "lawfirms" act on very thin ice themselves so they will not let it come to that.
For the US guys here, the european right is in many parts much more in favor of the person than the corporation and the stakes are much lower.
This news is from May 2009, back then 500 people had already received a letter like you. It might be possible to find what happened to them with a deeper research.
Constantin Film AG, a major German film production and distribution company, has reportedly been sending pre-litigation settlement letters to people it accuses of illegally downloading its movies since this past March.
It says it’s identified more than 10,000 IP addresses, but has sent letters to only 500 of them so far .
CEO Bernhard Burgener says the movie studio is asking only for a "symbolic" 800 euros ($1064 USD) in damages, and those that refuse can expect further legal action.
Nevermind the fact that BitTorrent is prone to false positives for copyright infringement and that the "proof" they cite merely identifies an address, not an actual person.
I work in entertainment licensing. Please note that searching for "Blood" on IMDb is not going to give you all the information you need to know about the product.
First, the company handling distribution/licensing for the film (especially in foreign markets) is usually not the production company (and most of the time the distributor won't be listed on IMDb).
Second, if they're accusing you of downloading something called "Blood" and you downloaded something called "Blood+" you are guilty. Obviously we can speculate about semantics (calling it a movie vs. a series, dropping the "+" out of the title), but you downloaded a product illegally and have been caught doing so. You don't know what company handles the licensing for either of these products and you shouldn't be looking at IMDb for the answer-- you SHOULD be calling the law firm and asking questions, asking for an extension while you look into this alleged piracy and try to clear it up, etc. You should also follow that up with professional legal advice.
A lot of distributors are putting files up as bait, meaning there is a very real possibility that what you are downloading is being tracked by those handling the licensing. They will send out similar letters to everyone they catch. Some will pay (that's a bonus), and some will fight it. They'll make the money back from piracy based on those that pay, and figure out if it's worth their while to fight the others. You might be able to save some money by paying a lawyer to get you out of this mess or you might save money by just paying the fee.
But make sure it is just from a law-firm not from a German court. You can ignore ALL letters from lawyers. But if you receive one letter from court (afaik those are yellow) you should respond immediately (and definitely get a lawyer).
Also - did you sign anything when you got the letter? Or was it just in the mail? If it was just in the mail you always can say "I didnt receive anything from you" it's their job to prove, that you received the letter (via 'eigenhändig mit Rückschein' sent letters)
AFAIK, in Sweden you can't be fined for more than the total distribution value of whatever you downloaded, and I'm quite sure that would be in line with most EU laws. Don't take it for granted, but demands for over 900€ would seem way over the limit for what you could be fined unless you distributed the file to a lot of people (which you evidently didn't, since you didn't have it in the first place). If you didn't even download the movie, there's no reason to even respond to these extortion schemes, especially to such an outrageous sum of money.
After re-reading the replies you got I have to emphasize that "Blood" and "Blood+" are very likely referring to the same product with localized titles. Do NOT assume that you can fight a distributor based on a semantics error-- they have been representing films and protecting licenses for almost a century and you won't be the first to get caught making a mistake like that.
If i were you, I'd call the company ( i'm sure they have some kind of address and phone number listed in the letter) and find out if they are serious about the incident. You can decide from that point whether to pay them or take them to court...kind of simple matter.
As said before, go to the "Amtsgericht" and ask if they can give u a "Beratungshilfeschein", then go to an attorney and ask him what to to. He will tell you if there is a chance to win the case or get the company to charge less money.
Dont write back on your own, it wont help anything since they will only spamm you with more charges and try to scare you. Just dont get scared by a stupid company that wants to make money out of you (otherwise you would have gotten a letter from a court or the "Staatsanwaltschaft").
On September 30 2010 07:25 Zocat wrote: Ignore it (maybe ask a lawyer).
But make sure it is just from a law-firm not from a German court. You can ignore ALL letters from lawyers. But if you receive one letter from court (afaik those are yellow) you should respond immediately (and definitely get a lawyer).
Also - did you sign anything when you got the letter? Or was it just in the mail? If it was just in the mail you always can say "I didnt receive anything from you" it's their job to prove, that you received the letter (via 'eigenhändig mit Rückschein' sent letters)
That's basically what I would do. If you want to ask a lawyer make sure he is specialized in copyright. Regarding the Blood+, Blood controversy: I seriously doubt that a company in Germany would pay licensing fees for a Japanese anime that will never be sold on DVD or shown on TV. It's an error by the company that tries tracking those movies they were told to. They just try to amass data, errors will happen, why should they care if someone innocent gets falsely accused.
Hahaha. Don't pay. Don't sign. Whatever you do, these two are the most important things. Filesharing is not a crime (in Germany). Quite literally. If the company (Constantin) itself did this, yea, you'd be liable (Zivilrechtsklage) and you might have to pay (if they had sufficient evidence to prove beyond reasonable doubt that you downloaded the file which infringed the copyright), but this is basically a scam.
Also, if you got a 'Rechtsschutzversicherung', you can go to court all day long without paying anything extra. It's quite cheap, and nobody's gonna want to fuck with you just for shits n giggles, they gotta have a solid case.
go ahead and fight it. they have to prove in court that you actually have the movie they claim you to have. and given ur story, they have a damn hard time to prove it.
Not sure if you are still reading the posts but believe it or not they lose money if they bring you to court. They are trying to milk people of their money who are afraid of going to court; they want this to happen, but do not want to go to court. This is how it is in the US at least, not sure how court fees are in other countries
I would suggest just doing nothing unless they do happen to take you to court which is very rare. Look at how common the MPAA/RIAA takes people to court in the US (never)
Is this the same Constantin Films that took down all the Hitler parody videos off of youtube? If so, they suck. Don't give them a penny.
More seriously, lawyers often will give you a free consultation. That is probably your best bet. I seriously doubt that you will be forced to pay 1000 euros for a download you can't even trace.
You are definitely getting sued for the wrong thing. Take them to court and make an ass of them. If you threaten to take them to court with a big ass letter i'm sure they will not go to court or lose the battle if blood and blood+ are owned by different companies.
I've gotten e-mails and letters about infringing on copyrights before but they were all from places outside of Canada. I ignored them all and nothing else happened. However I highly suspected many of them to be scams as most of the stuff was stuff I did not DL.
Unsere Mandantshaft hat festgestellt, dass Sie fuer das illegale Angebot zum Herunterladen von urheberrechtlich geschutzten Bild-/Tonaufnahmen ueber die Tauschboerse bittorrent verantwortlich
the bold was not added, thats the way it is in the document.
Die Gerichte gehen bei illegalen Angeboten urheberrechtlich geschuetzter Werke in Taushboersen von mindestens EUR 10.000,- Streitwert pro Werk aus: -- big quote here from Amtsgerich Muenchen, 19.10.207,AZ. 142 C 19823/07
@Postaldude I understand... also i do find it doubtful that they can even prove that I downloaded the file considering that i have 2 pcs behind this router and this router has wireless connection on which even though password protected i have seen guys cracking wireless pass with my own eyes... thats the reason i mentioned earlier that their case might not hold up in court, but i might be wrong as i have never been to court before.
Actually, the first quote is quite important because it says they accuse you of "illegaly offering the download of copyrighted audio/video material over bittorrent". So it's not about you downloading anything but about you sharing copyrighted material. So if they have proof that you shared that movie (which can be easier to prove since they could just have downloaded it directly from you) it might be a different story. I definitely suggest you get professional advice.
On September 30 2010 08:40 dybydx wrote: go ahead and fight it. they have to prove in court that you actually have the movie they claim you to have. and given ur story, they have a damn hard time to prove it.
Actually in germany the judges dont know shit about internet stuff. In some courts they believe everyone who has an ip address and a log, so you have to prove that you are innocent.
Dont see constantin films anywhere... they have no rights to the anime series which is the one i guiltily admit have in my PC.
So again as far as I can tell they have no business with me, or so I think.
--Edit
@Hawk I will seek for a lawyer but i just wanted to have some info in my hands because here i might have to pay some hundred eurs just to consult one. >_>
@Grettin I used Azureus at that time, i havent downloaded for a while since i am working on some little programs that i wrote so i dont have much time to watch stuff on the PC anymore.
@blix agree and will do, just needed to know somethings before hand to not go like a complete ignorant (which i am) to the lawyer who i will probably have to pay by the hour... the quicker the session goes the better for me i guess, and going without no info will call for wasting time with some basic questions that might get answered here already
@blomsterjohn haha, will try for sure
They appear to have distribution rights in Germany. Most lawyers consult for free in America, like to tell you if that thing is legit or not. I couldn't possibly tell you how it works there though.
On September 30 2010 09:10 Kishkumen wrote: Is this the same Constantin Films that took down all the Hitler parody videos off of youtube? If so, they suck. Don't give them a penny.
More seriously, lawyers often will give you a free consultation. That is probably your best bet. I seriously doubt that you will be forced to pay 1000 euros for a download you can't even trace.
On September 30 2010 07:22 justle wrote: I work in entertainment licensing. Please note that searching for "Blood" on IMDb is not going to give you all the information you need to know about the product.
First, the company handling distribution/licensing for the film (especially in foreign markets) is usually not the production company (and most of the time the distributor won't be listed on IMDb).
Second, if they're accusing you of downloading something called "Blood" and you downloaded something called "Blood+" you are guilty. Obviously we can speculate about semantics (calling it a movie vs. a series, dropping the "+" out of the title), but you downloaded a product illegally and have been caught doing so. You don't know what company handles the licensing for either of these products and you shouldn't be looking at IMDb for the answer-- you SHOULD be calling the law firm and asking questions, asking for an extension while you look into this alleged piracy and try to clear it up, etc. You should also follow that up with professional legal advice.
A lot of distributors are putting files up as bait, meaning there is a very real possibility that what you are downloading is being tracked by those handling the licensing. They will send out similar letters to everyone they catch. Some will pay (that's a bonus), and some will fight it. They'll make the money back from piracy based on those that pay, and figure out if it's worth their while to fight the others. You might be able to save some money by paying a lawyer to get you out of this mess or you might save money by just paying the fee.
umm this is moronic to say the least. -500 diamond protoss
it is two ENTIRELY different companies that own the right to the seperate "Blood" movies/Series. The one this particular individual downloaded and the company that is "sueing" are not the one and the same. This isn't the government coming after you over illegal downloading. It is a private corporation.
This is like me catching you jay walking and then sueing you... HEY you broke the law so you have to pay me.... (umm wat) Doesn't matter if you broke the law against me, you broke the law in general.
Before making outlandish claims on your background id assume you would actually read the OP's description of what is taking place.
edit: and it isn't semantics or a technicality its outright false in their claims.
They were all scams. If you haven't downloaded the file in question, and if you try to trace back the organization that sent you the letter, it should tell you if this is a scam or not.
I have a feeling it's a scam. I went through the exact same feeling when I received the e-mail, but a little advice and research helped me prove that there was nothing to worry about.
On September 30 2010 22:28 Zergneedsfood wrote: I've gotten letters like these in the mail.
They were all scams. If you haven't downloaded the file in question, and if you try to trace back the organization that sent you the letter, it should tell you if this is a scam or not.
I have a feeling it's a scam. I went through the exact same feeling when I received the e-mail, but a little advice and research helped me prove that there was nothing to worry about.
Haha dude if it's a freaking e-mail how could it be anything other then a scam?
But, before you get to the real court, you will be taken to a compromise meeting. At least that is how they do it in Norway (and Danmark). Since it is a small case it wont go directly to the court. If you get summoned there a judge will try to make you both come to an agreement. Then you can pay the bill and wont pay for the others lawyers.
I am not to sure about all this, but that is how it will most likly start. Wont cost you that much extra, and maybe you dont have to do it anyway if you are lucky
Okay guys, I am going to give an advice which will forever change your life. I mean forever.
Buy an used copy of whatever product you are getting sued for. Tell them you could not find it so you downloaded it. You found the product sometime after you downloaded it.
Yes, I understand the license specifies the fact you may only use your product, but this is a loop hole since the courts always (I mean always) re-examine EULAs.
Pretty disgusting how they are able to send you that letter in the first place, definately put a call in to your ISP and don't hang up until you are at the bottom of it :<
It sounds to me like this is a legal fad that has come to Germany. For every X number of letters sent out, a certain percentage of people get scared and pay them money (when they shouldn't). So, law firms with no morals view it as profitable.
Write back and explain you didn't do anything. Keep copies of everything. A scare-letter is not a legal summons, don't treat it as one. Take it seriously, but don't be fooled.
As a german law student this sounds more and more like a scam to me. Recently there have been law firms sending letters out to people to basically just see if they are willing to pay. If you like advice plz forward me the message you got so I can get an overview on what's going on. However DO NOT BLINDLY PAY OR SIGN ANYTHING! Even if you got a legit letter you might wanna have an attorney answer the thing. Furthermore it's quite weird that it's an email. They should be sending out letters on the regular mail way. If you want my email, plz PM me. I've had a couple friends having similar problems lately and they did recieve letters via regular mail. However the request were not legit at all.
On September 30 2010 07:28 justle wrote: After re-reading the replies you got I have to emphasize that "Blood" and "Blood+" are very likely referring to the same product with localized titles. Do NOT assume that you can fight a distributor based on a semantics error-- they have been representing films and protecting licenses for almost a century and you won't be the first to get caught making a mistake like that.
I am not assuming. They are 2 completely different things, from completely different countries. Blood+ is an anime series from japan while the live action movie called "Blood" while based on the same story is created and distributed by a totally different company from another country.
@justle
I did not based my knowledge only on imdb, i just linked that because thats the clearest proof that i can show that those two works are completely unrelated to each other.
If the ppl from japan come and sue me I gladly pay the 956,00 eur or whatever they claim since yes I downloaded their work via torrent, but this company has no business with me since i did not download their work, period.
I'm telling you that there is such a thing as LOCALIZED titles, meaning they could drop the "+" in the title in various territories. I am sitting at work right now looking at localized titles where letters have been changed and symbols have been dropped.
If they have in fact dropped the "+" for various territories (which is more likely than not) then you HAVE downloaded their work. In all likelihood, the Japanese production company or distributor is not handling the licensing abroad, so they wouldn't be the ones to approach you. It would be a 3rd party company (and law firm) who are handling it for that specific territory.
On September 30 2010 07:22 justle wrote: I work in entertainment licensing. Please note that searching for "Blood" on IMDb is not going to give you all the information you need to know about the product.
First, the company handling distribution/licensing for the film (especially in foreign markets) is usually not the production company (and most of the time the distributor won't be listed on IMDb).
Second, if they're accusing you of downloading something called "Blood" and you downloaded something called "Blood+" you are guilty. Obviously we can speculate about semantics (calling it a movie vs. a series, dropping the "+" out of the title), but you downloaded a product illegally and have been caught doing so. You don't know what company handles the licensing for either of these products and you shouldn't be looking at IMDb for the answer-- you SHOULD be calling the law firm and asking questions, asking for an extension while you look into this alleged piracy and try to clear it up, etc. You should also follow that up with professional legal advice.
A lot of distributors are putting files up as bait, meaning there is a very real possibility that what you are downloading is being tracked by those handling the licensing. They will send out similar letters to everyone they catch. Some will pay (that's a bonus), and some will fight it. They'll make the money back from piracy based on those that pay, and figure out if it's worth their while to fight the others. You might be able to save some money by paying a lawyer to get you out of this mess or you might save money by just paying the fee.
umm this is moronic to say the least. -500 diamond protoss
it is two ENTIRELY different companies that own the right to the seperate "Blood" movies/Series. The one this particular individual downloaded and the company that is "sueing" are not the one and the same. This isn't the government coming after you over illegal downloading. It is a private corporation.
This is like me catching you jay walking and then sueing you... HEY you broke the law so you have to pay me.... (umm wat) Doesn't matter if you broke the law against me, you broke the law in general.
Before making outlandish claims on your background id assume you would actually read the OP's description of what is taking place.
edit: and it isn't semantics or a technicality its outright false in their claims.
Do you have any idea what you're talking about? They own the licensing to the films so if you are illegally distributing it (by file sharing) you owe them money for licensing. As I have stated (you must not read full posts before you start flaming), there is such a thing as LOCALIZED TITLES, meaning a distributor will change titles depending on territory.
Additionally, it doesn't matter if the production company and the company suing him are not the same. It's commonplace for different distributors to handle distribution/licensing for different territories for the SAME TITLE. That means that this company might not be listed anywhere on IMDb, and might also be connected to another series with a similar name, but they ARE in fact handling distribution for the title in this territory.
Before you start flaming and spouting off about things you don't know about, read the entire post. Distribution/licensing is not something you could easily figure out if you weren't involved in it since any given film has several companies handling distribution at any given time (and sometimes, multiple companies in each territory).
On September 30 2010 07:22 justle wrote: I work in entertainment licensing. Please note that searching for "Blood" on IMDb is not going to give you all the information you need to know about the product.
First, the company handling distribution/licensing for the film (especially in foreign markets) is usually not the production company (and most of the time the distributor won't be listed on IMDb).
Second, if they're accusing you of downloading something called "Blood" and you downloaded something called "Blood+" you are guilty. Obviously we can speculate about semantics (calling it a movie vs. a series, dropping the "+" out of the title), but you downloaded a product illegally and have been caught doing so. You don't know what company handles the licensing for either of these products and you shouldn't be looking at IMDb for the answer-- you SHOULD be calling the law firm and asking questions, asking for an extension while you look into this alleged piracy and try to clear it up, etc. You should also follow that up with professional legal advice.
A lot of distributors are putting files up as bait, meaning there is a very real possibility that what you are downloading is being tracked by those handling the licensing. They will send out similar letters to everyone they catch. Some will pay (that's a bonus), and some will fight it. They'll make the money back from piracy based on those that pay, and figure out if it's worth their while to fight the others. You might be able to save some money by paying a lawyer to get you out of this mess or you might save money by just paying the fee.
umm this is moronic to say the least. -500 diamond protoss
it is two ENTIRELY different companies that own the right to the seperate "Blood" movies/Series. The one this particular individual downloaded and the company that is "sueing" are not the one and the same. This isn't the government coming after you over illegal downloading. It is a private corporation.
This is like me catching you jay walking and then sueing you... HEY you broke the law so you have to pay me.... (umm wat) Doesn't matter if you broke the law against me, you broke the law in general.
Before making outlandish claims on your background id assume you would actually read the OP's description of what is taking place.
edit: and it isn't semantics or a technicality its outright false in their claims.
Do you have any idea what you're talking about? They own the licensing to the films so if you are illegally distributing it (by file sharing) you owe them money for licensing. As I have stated (you must not read full posts before you start flaming), there is such a thing as LOCALIZED TITLES, meaning a distributor will change titles depending on territory.
Additionally, it doesn't matter if the production company and the company suing him are not the same. It's commonplace for different distributors to handle distribution/licensing for different territories for the SAME TITLE. That means that this company might not be listed anywhere on IMDb, and might also be connected to another series with a similar name, but they ARE in fact handling distribution for the title in this territory.
Before you start flaming and spouting off about things you don't know about, read the entire post. Distribution/licensing is not something you could easily figure out if you weren't involved in it since any given film has several companies handling distribution at any given time (and sometimes, multiple companies in each territory).
What seems more likely; the mass-IP-harvesting into mass-letter-threat-generating-system mistaking a torrent for the anime Blood+ (with no known connection to Constantin Films, and what the OP actually downloaded) to the movie Blood (known connection to Constantin, but which the OP says he's never downloaded), or Constantin Film somehow having the rights to Blood+ in Germany but either having renamed it (making it possible to confuse it with their actual movie) or just forgetting the + in the letter by mistake?
I vote for the former, but that's just me.
Edit: OP, what exactly does the mail exactly refer to? "Blood: The Last Vampire" or simply "Blood"? Edit2: email -> letter.
On October 01 2010 00:31 Delerium wrote: Has this been posted yet?
It sounds to me like this is a legal fad that has come to Germany. For every X number of letters sent out, a certain percentage of people get scared and pay them money (when they shouldn't). So, law firms with no morals view it as profitable..
On September 30 2010 07:22 justle wrote: I work in entertainment licensing. Please note that searching for "Blood" on IMDb is not going to give you all the information you need to know about the product.
First, the company handling distribution/licensing for the film (especially in foreign markets) is usually not the production company (and most of the time the distributor won't be listed on IMDb).
Second, if they're accusing you of downloading something called "Blood" and you downloaded something called "Blood+" you are guilty. Obviously we can speculate about semantics (calling it a movie vs. a series, dropping the "+" out of the title), but you downloaded a product illegally and have been caught doing so. You don't know what company handles the licensing for either of these products and you shouldn't be looking at IMDb for the answer-- you SHOULD be calling the law firm and asking questions, asking for an extension while you look into this alleged piracy and try to clear it up, etc. You should also follow that up with professional legal advice.
A lot of distributors are putting files up as bait, meaning there is a very real possibility that what you are downloading is being tracked by those handling the licensing. They will send out similar letters to everyone they catch. Some will pay (that's a bonus), and some will fight it. They'll make the money back from piracy based on those that pay, and figure out if it's worth their while to fight the others. You might be able to save some money by paying a lawyer to get you out of this mess or you might save money by just paying the fee.
umm this is moronic to say the least. -500 diamond protoss
it is two ENTIRELY different companies that own the right to the seperate "Blood" movies/Series. The one this particular individual downloaded and the company that is "sueing" are not the one and the same. This isn't the government coming after you over illegal downloading. It is a private corporation.
This is like me catching you jay walking and then sueing you... HEY you broke the law so you have to pay me.... (umm wat) Doesn't matter if you broke the law against me, you broke the law in general.
Before making outlandish claims on your background id assume you would actually read the OP's description of what is taking place.
edit: and it isn't semantics or a technicality its outright false in their claims.
Do you have any idea what you're talking about? They own the licensing to the films so if you are illegally distributing it (by file sharing) you owe them money for licensing. As I have stated (you must not read full posts before you start flaming), there is such a thing as LOCALIZED TITLES, meaning a distributor will change titles depending on territory.
Additionally, it doesn't matter if the production company and the company suing him are not the same. It's commonplace for different distributors to handle distribution/licensing for different territories for the SAME TITLE. That means that this company might not be listed anywhere on IMDb, and might also be connected to another series with a similar name, but they ARE in fact handling distribution for the title in this territory.
Before you start flaming and spouting off about things you don't know about, read the entire post. Distribution/licensing is not something you could easily figure out if you weren't involved in it since any given film has several companies handling distribution at any given time (and sometimes, multiple companies in each territory).
Your point about localized titles is important for people to recognize, but it is not relevant in this scenario. This is a matter of two different products with similar names, and Constantin does not own the one that the OP downloaded.
On September 30 2010 07:22 justle wrote: I work in entertainment licensing. Please note that searching for "Blood" on IMDb is not going to give you all the information you need to know about the product.
First, the company handling distribution/licensing for the film (especially in foreign markets) is usually not the production company (and most of the time the distributor won't be listed on IMDb).
Second, if they're accusing you of downloading something called "Blood" and you downloaded something called "Blood+" you are guilty. Obviously we can speculate about semantics (calling it a movie vs. a series, dropping the "+" out of the title), but you downloaded a product illegally and have been caught doing so. You don't know what company handles the licensing for either of these products and you shouldn't be looking at IMDb for the answer-- you SHOULD be calling the law firm and asking questions, asking for an extension while you look into this alleged piracy and try to clear it up, etc. You should also follow that up with professional legal advice.
A lot of distributors are putting files up as bait, meaning there is a very real possibility that what you are downloading is being tracked by those handling the licensing. They will send out similar letters to everyone they catch. Some will pay (that's a bonus), and some will fight it. They'll make the money back from piracy based on those that pay, and figure out if it's worth their while to fight the others. You might be able to save some money by paying a lawyer to get you out of this mess or you might save money by just paying the fee.
umm this is moronic to say the least. -500 diamond protoss
it is two ENTIRELY different companies that own the right to the seperate "Blood" movies/Series. The one this particular individual downloaded and the company that is "sueing" are not the one and the same. This isn't the government coming after you over illegal downloading. It is a private corporation.
This is like me catching you jay walking and then sueing you... HEY you broke the law so you have to pay me.... (umm wat) Doesn't matter if you broke the law against me, you broke the law in general.
Before making outlandish claims on your background id assume you would actually read the OP's description of what is taking place.
edit: and it isn't semantics or a technicality its outright false in their claims.
Do you have any idea what you're talking about? They own the licensing to the films so if you are illegally distributing it (by file sharing) you owe them money for licensing. As I have stated (you must not read full posts before you start flaming), there is such a thing as LOCALIZED TITLES, meaning a distributor will change titles depending on territory.
Additionally, it doesn't matter if the production company and the company suing him are not the same. It's commonplace for different distributors to handle distribution/licensing for different territories for the SAME TITLE. That means that this company might not be listed anywhere on IMDb, and might also be connected to another series with a similar name, but they ARE in fact handling distribution for the title in this territory.
Before you start flaming and spouting off about things you don't know about, read the entire post. Distribution/licensing is not something you could easily figure out if you weren't involved in it since any given film has several companies handling distribution at any given time (and sometimes, multiple companies in each territory).
Your point about localized titles is important for people to recognize, but it is not relevant in this scenario. This is a matter of two different products with similar names, and Constantin does not own the one that the OP downloaded.
The only thing which makes me question if they could actually have the rights is how Blood:The Last Vampire (the 2009 movie and what the letter is seemingly about) and Blood+ (the anime series) are both based on the same 2000 "Blood:The Last Vampire" anime-movie. Seems far fetched compared to the alternatives though.
Cash demand over 'porn downloads' By Jim Reed Newsbeat reporter
Thousands of internet users have been told they'll be taken to court unless they pay hundreds of pounds for illegally downloading and sharing hardcore porn movies.
Newsbeat's found out that people across the UK have been accused of using file-sharing networks to get hold of dozens of adult titles without paying for them.
A German company called DigiProtect claims the users are breaking copyright law and is demanding £500 to settle out of court.
A 20-page legal letter lists the name of the film involved along with the time and date of the alleged download.
On September 30 2010 07:22 justle wrote: I work in entertainment licensing. Please note that searching for "Blood" on IMDb is not going to give you all the information you need to know about the product.
First, the company handling distribution/licensing for the film (especially in foreign markets) is usually not the production company (and most of the time the distributor won't be listed on IMDb).
Second, if they're accusing you of downloading something called "Blood" and you downloaded something called "Blood+" you are guilty. Obviously we can speculate about semantics (calling it a movie vs. a series, dropping the "+" out of the title), but you downloaded a product illegally and have been caught doing so. You don't know what company handles the licensing for either of these products and you shouldn't be looking at IMDb for the answer-- you SHOULD be calling the law firm and asking questions, asking for an extension while you look into this alleged piracy and try to clear it up, etc. You should also follow that up with professional legal advice.
A lot of distributors are putting files up as bait, meaning there is a very real possibility that what you are downloading is being tracked by those handling the licensing. They will send out similar letters to everyone they catch. Some will pay (that's a bonus), and some will fight it. They'll make the money back from piracy based on those that pay, and figure out if it's worth their while to fight the others. You might be able to save some money by paying a lawyer to get you out of this mess or you might save money by just paying the fee.
umm this is moronic to say the least. -500 diamond protoss
it is two ENTIRELY different companies that own the right to the seperate "Blood" movies/Series. The one this particular individual downloaded and the company that is "sueing" are not the one and the same. This isn't the government coming after you over illegal downloading. It is a private corporation.
This is like me catching you jay walking and then sueing you... HEY you broke the law so you have to pay me.... (umm wat) Doesn't matter if you broke the law against me, you broke the law in general.
Before making outlandish claims on your background id assume you would actually read the OP's description of what is taking place.
edit: and it isn't semantics or a technicality its outright false in their claims.
Do you have any idea what you're talking about? They own the licensing to the films so if you are illegally distributing it (by file sharing) you owe them money for licensing. As I have stated (you must not read full posts before you start flaming), there is such a thing as LOCALIZED TITLES, meaning a distributor will change titles depending on territory.
Additionally, it doesn't matter if the production company and the company suing him are not the same. It's commonplace for different distributors to handle distribution/licensing for different territories for the SAME TITLE. That means that this company might not be listed anywhere on IMDb, and might also be connected to another series with a similar name, but they ARE in fact handling distribution for the title in this territory.
Before you start flaming and spouting off about things you don't know about, read the entire post. Distribution/licensing is not something you could easily figure out if you weren't involved in it since any given film has several companies handling distribution at any given time (and sometimes, multiple companies in each territory).
Your point about localized titles is important for people to recognize, but it is not relevant in this scenario. This is a matter of two different products with similar names, and Constantin does not own the one that the OP downloaded.
The only thing which makes me question if they could actually have the rights is how Blood:The Last Vampire (the 2009 movie and what the letter is seemingly about) and Blood+ (the anime series) are both based on the same 2000 "Blood:The Last Vampire" anime-movie. Seems far fetched compared to the alternatives though.
Blood: The Last Vampire(2000) (SPVision, Panini Video, Nipponart GmbH)
Blood+ -
Blood: The Last Vampire(2009) (Constantin Film AG)
At least it very much looks that way(no rights for the files he downloaded). Anyway, regarding what he should do....ignore it. Modify the "Unterlassungserklärung"(don't pay anything and write that you won't do it again) and send it to them. That's pretty much all there is to do. If they send more letters, just ignore them since there is a really high probability that they won't do anything + you aren't guilty anyway.
On September 30 2010 07:22 justle wrote: I work in entertainment licensing. Please note that searching for "Blood" on IMDb is not going to give you all the information you need to know about the product.
First, the company handling distribution/licensing for the film (especially in foreign markets) is usually not the production company (and most of the time the distributor won't be listed on IMDb).
Second, if they're accusing you of downloading something called "Blood" and you downloaded something called "Blood+" you are guilty. Obviously we can speculate about semantics (calling it a movie vs. a series, dropping the "+" out of the title), but you downloaded a product illegally and have been caught doing so. You don't know what company handles the licensing for either of these products and you shouldn't be looking at IMDb for the answer-- you SHOULD be calling the law firm and asking questions, asking for an extension while you look into this alleged piracy and try to clear it up, etc. You should also follow that up with professional legal advice.
A lot of distributors are putting files up as bait, meaning there is a very real possibility that what you are downloading is being tracked by those handling the licensing. They will send out similar letters to everyone they catch. Some will pay (that's a bonus), and some will fight it. They'll make the money back from piracy based on those that pay, and figure out if it's worth their while to fight the others. You might be able to save some money by paying a lawyer to get you out of this mess or you might save money by just paying the fee.
umm this is moronic to say the least. -500 diamond protoss
it is two ENTIRELY different companies that own the right to the seperate "Blood" movies/Series. The one this particular individual downloaded and the company that is "sueing" are not the one and the same. This isn't the government coming after you over illegal downloading. It is a private corporation.
This is like me catching you jay walking and then sueing you... HEY you broke the law so you have to pay me.... (umm wat) Doesn't matter if you broke the law against me, you broke the law in general.
Before making outlandish claims on your background id assume you would actually read the OP's description of what is taking place.
edit: and it isn't semantics or a technicality its outright false in their claims.
Do you have any idea what you're talking about? They own the licensing to the films so if you are illegally distributing it (by file sharing) you owe them money for licensing. As I have stated (you must not read full posts before you start flaming), there is such a thing as LOCALIZED TITLES, meaning a distributor will change titles depending on territory.
Additionally, it doesn't matter if the production company and the company suing him are not the same. It's commonplace for different distributors to handle distribution/licensing for different territories for the SAME TITLE. That means that this company might not be listed anywhere on IMDb, and might also be connected to another series with a similar name, but they ARE in fact handling distribution for the title in this territory.
Before you start flaming and spouting off about things you don't know about, read the entire post. Distribution/licensing is not something you could easily figure out if you weren't involved in it since any given film has several companies handling distribution at any given time (and sometimes, multiple companies in each territory).
Perhaps you should read through the thread before posting. I've already stated that Blood+'s distribution rights are owned by Sony. Has nothing to do with Constantin. Neither do you know if it was licenced at the time of downloading, as anime series are often not licenced until very late outside of Japan. Just a quick wikipedia search would have helped you if reading through the thread is too much work for you.
Boy I am glad getting sued for copyright infringement in Denmark is a thing of the past. Don't pay and/or get a lawyer. They expect you to pay and not make a big deal out of it. Most people I've spoken to about it say they get one, maybe two, letters asking for money, and after that they give up. Only case that was ever won by the music/movie industry in Denmark was when the guy admitted guilt in court. 3 other cases ended in either a settlement or the guy getting acquitted. After that the industry gave up suing individuals
Hans has a point. Usually these companies do a mass mail out after harassing ISP companies or tapping a torrent for IP data. I got one of these letters back in '05 from my ISP company but they said they weren't going to give out my personal info to Warner and I should just ignore their C&D; they were just giving me the letter for interest sake.
It sounds to me like this is a legal fad that has come to Germany. For every X number of letters sent out, a certain percentage of people get scared and pay them money (when they shouldn't). So, law firms with no morals view it as profitable.
That reminds me of a situation from a book I read years back called "Innumeracy", by John Paulos:
"Assume that a non-scrupulous stock market analyst mails out 32,000 letters where she predicts in 16,000 of the letters that a certain stock, X, will go up, and she predicts in the other 16, 000 letters that the stock will fall. Assume, for the sake of simplicity, that the stock can only go up or down, and that the stock X in fact went up. Now, she mails out 16, 000 letters to those 16, 000 who received a correct first prediction, this time predicting that a different stock Y will go up (in 8, 000 of the letters), and down (in the remaining 8, 000 letters). Assume the stock Y went up this time, too. Now, she does the same thing with the next 8, 000 letters, where half of the group receives the prediction that the stock Z will go up, and the other half, the opposite prediction. Assume the prediction this third time around is correct for 4, 000 of the group. Effectively, then, we have now a total of 3 consecutive, correct predictions, for 4, 000 people. Let’s say that all these predictions were given free of charge. Now, the analyst sends out a letter stating that as she had correctly predicted the movement of the stock 3 consecutive times, without any cost to the recipients, she is prepared to mail out the next prediction to anyone who pays her $100 for the next prediction. And, to make the offer more attractive, she states that she is prepared to give an “iron-clad money back guarantee,” to 4 anyone who gets a wrong prediction this 4th time around. Since $100 seems a pretty good deal for getting an accurate prediction that might net thousands, let’s say that she gets 4,000 x $100 = $400, 000, from the 4, 000 people who agreed. This time around, then, out of the 4, 000 letters, only 2, 000 had the correct predictions, so she has to return 2, 000 x $100 = $200, 000, to those who received the wrong prediction. But, she can now laugh all the way to the bank, being $200, 000 richer !"
Of course, it probably won't be exactly 50%, and it could be a much smaller number of letters (perhaps sent via email), but I often think about this example. Would not be so farfetched if someone were to try such a scheme, or even a variation of it, such as you suggested.
On September 30 2010 23:47 ooni wrote: Okay guys, I am going to give an advice which will forever change your life. I mean forever.
Buy an used copy of whatever product you are getting sued for. Tell them you could not find it so you downloaded it. You found the product sometime after you downloaded it.
Yes, I understand the license specifies the fact you may only use your product, but this is a loop hole since the courts always (I mean always) re-examine EULAs.
On September 30 2010 22:28 Zergneedsfood wrote: I've gotten letters like these in the mail.
They were all scams. If you haven't downloaded the file in question, and if you try to trace back the organization that sent you the letter, it should tell you if this is a scam or not.
I have a feeling it's a scam. I went through the exact same feeling when I received the e-mail, but a little advice and research helped me prove that there was nothing to worry about.
Haha dude if it's a freaking e-mail how could it be anything other then a scam?
On September 30 2010 23:47 ooni wrote: Okay guys, I am going to give an advice which will forever change your life. I mean forever.
Buy an used copy of whatever product you are getting sued for. Tell them you could not find it so you downloaded it. You found the product sometime after you downloaded it.
Yes, I understand the license specifies the fact you may only use your product, but this is a loop hole since the courts always (I mean always) re-examine EULAs.
But usually you aren't getting sued for downloading the file. You are getting sued for uploading it in the PROCESS of downloading it (i.e. torrents). That is not much of a defense...
Aren't those the same guys that keep trying to flag and bring down parody clips of their movies on youtube while the same movies are uploaded completely there.
These are usually scare tactics with no bite behind them, hoping to get people to either pay up or say something that implicates them. I'd obviously research it a bit more but, if no contrary evidence comes up I'd just ignore it.
Realistic worse case scenario is that they do decide to take you to court: at that point you reach out with a lawyer and ask to settle.
This sounds similar to something I read three years ago about a UK law firm sending out letters with a 350 pound fine accusing people of downloading some Pinball game no one had heard of. It had the same threatening tone of pay up or we'll take you to court. I think it ended up being just bully tactics to make those afraid cough up some money.
Here it is, it's very long, it starts off with one person but as it went on more people started to put their hands up saying they received the same threats/letters and that none of them had downloaded such game.
Maybe yours is something similar? Regardless good luck, seek help, and do a lot of research. I hope everything turns out alright for you.
On September 30 2010 22:28 Zergneedsfood wrote: I've gotten letters like these in the mail.
They were all scams. If you haven't downloaded the file in question, and if you try to trace back the organization that sent you the letter, it should tell you if this is a scam or not.
I have a feeling it's a scam. I went through the exact same feeling when I received the e-mail, but a little advice and research helped me prove that there was nothing to worry about.
Haha dude if it's a freaking e-mail how could it be anything other then a scam?
Apparently other people don't know....so yeah.
I dont know from where you guys think there are e-mails involved, this is all via Post. A 20+ pages letter.
I have been reading that this is happening to other people here in germany by the same law firm and the same company and curiously the same amount...
that last fact makes me think that they made up that sum, because if they really are charging me for how long i shared the files (thus calculating the "damages" they "suffered") then everybody should have a different amount.
I also read some of the links posted here with the other law firm from UK and there is clearly something fishy going on with some law firms and this type of letters, since there are demands on the market for programmers to create applications that store information about people who use torrents so the law firms can buy this information as "evidence", and making money out of those people who get scared/ just want to get rid of them quickly and pay the sum.
I do not take this lightly. I am going to consult the lawyer tomorrow and prepare everything but it seems to be part of the same scheme.
as i mentioned before i do agree with the concept of "i worked hard for this i deserve a reward" but precisely because of this kind of things (how companies exploit the law to get more money than what they have) is why i am against the current copyright laws. This kind of things need to be made illegal, and the copyright laws need to be actualized to match our current modernized state.
7 pages of advice from people who don't know German law. Great.
I got to go but real quick: Generally correct is that these firm send thousands of Abmahnungen (cease and desist) for profit. While a shady business in itself this is perfectly legal in Germany.
In simple cases of copyright infringement the lawyer fee they can ask for is limited to 100 Euro. Further googling for $97a practices should give you a better idea.
Edit: Can you clarify are they asking for 1000 in damages or for 1000 in lawyer compensation?
On October 01 2010 13:01 zatic wrote: 7 pages of advice from people who don't know German law. Great.
I got to go but real quick: Generally correct is that these firm send thousands of Abmahnungen (cease and desist) for profit. While a shady business in itself this is perfectly legal in Germany.
In simple cases of copyright infringement the lawyer fee they can ask for is limited to 100 Euro. Further googling for $97a practices should give you a better idea.
Edit: Can you clarify are they asking for 1000 in damages or for 1000 in lawyer compensation?
hi.. 500 € for the lawyer and 456 € for the "damages"
you shouldn't listen to most of these responses simply because american law is way different from german law...
as far as i know, in austria (our laws are more equal) there is no legal way (or a way a court would accept) to get the info that you downloaded a movie. simply because the isp does not give any law firm access to their database... but you should definitely follow blomsterjohn advice and call your isp, this is a very cheap way that could solve your problem.
and on a sidenote, i'm pretty sure that if u have more than one pc behind your router its even more difficult to sue you because they need to prove that the person they want to sue sat behind the pc and downloaded the file at time xy.
On October 01 2010 23:29 gugarutz wrote: you shouldn't listen to most of these responses simply because american law is way different from german law...
Great advice so far.
However Austrian law is also different from German law so the rest of your post is just as wrong as what everyone else wrote so far. Everyone: If you don't know German IP law don't reply. Who do you think you are helping?
I think this quote from Fanatacist is most relevant here:
On August 12 2009 02:13 fanatacist wrote: Oh ______(curse), I wish I could help TL, but I only know _______(noun), and I am pretty in my confident in my abilities there, but my knowledge is completely lacking in _______(noun). I also don't have a lot of _______(noun), so I might not be able to ______(verb). _______(exclamation)!
RaptorX: Well at least the 500 Euro lawyer fee is more than they can ask for. As I said do some research on $97a and the current state of Abmahnungen. On the German part of the Internet that is, I am afraid TL won't be of much help.
My guess is that you'll have to send them a "modifizierte Unterlassungserklärung" and then wait to see if they drag you to court. But let's see what your lawyer says.
Very likely their evidence is weak and they use this sort of method to scare you into paying because they know that if they have to drag you to court they are most likely not gonna win and it will be costly for them even if they think they have a chance.
I would recommend you do the following: Do not pay their fine Do not try to contact them, instead contact a lawyer to get his oppinion on the "case" and from this point on only talk to the company through your lawyer or follow his instructions.
Although the amount of money in question is pretty low, I am pretty positive they can't just fine you like that and threaten with a lawsuit if you don't agree. A screenshot with your ip linked to some title of a movie is not evidence...
My take is: 1. You deny downloading the movie. 2. You reply to them stating facts such as there are multiple computers behind your router and the not so fact of 'One or more computers received a virus infection during that period of time'. 3. Throw in random crap about, if you ever find presence of the so called 'download content' in any shape and form, you will immediately delete it and remove any copies of it from your computer.
the german legalese you posted earlier states that you are not beinag accused of dowloading the file, but rather uploading it (offering it as a dowload via bittorrent). i think that this is a side effect from how filesharing works (you are dowloading it from someone else and all the parts already saved on your disk are being downlaoded from other people), but it is also a much more serious infringement then just dowloading it.
They are also not claiming that you, specifically, did it, but that you are responsible for it. there have recently been rulings here that say that as owner of the network, you are responsible for its security and for making sure that your infrastructure is not abused by thrid parties to commit crimes, thus making you liable for all infringements commited using your IP. this means that having multiple computers behind your router might not protect you as long as you are the anschlussinhaber.
the matter is very complicated and i would not take any steps without a professional's advice.
From personal experience, they don't go after the small fish that download films/movies/music and keep it for themselves, it's not worth it. They go after the people who download the files, then allow others to download it from them, and it had to be a significant amount for them to catch it. Well, this is how it is in America, Germany may be different.
Unless you received a registered letter with acknowledgement of receipt, I would ignore it.l I mean this is serious business, I don't know in germany, but there should have been an asshole giving you the letter saying "you've been served". Nothing can prove you actually received this letter.
So if you are innocent and broke and you didn't provide any acknoledgement of receipt...you know what to do.
edit : after a couple of research, it seems that it happens quite often :
Spamigation is mass litigation conducted to intimidate large numbers of people.[1] The term was coined by Brad Templeton of the Electronic Frontier Foundation to explain the tactics of the Recording Industry Association of America (RIAA), which files large numbers of lawsuits against individuals for file sharing,
On October 02 2010 00:18 FishForThought wrote: My take is: 1. You deny downloading the movie. 2. You reply to them stating facts such as there are multiple computers behind your router and the not so fact of 'One or more computers received a virus infection during that period of time'. 3. Throw in random crap about, if you ever find presence of the so called 'download content' in any shape and form, you will immediately delete it and remove any copies of it from your computer.
I think no matter the country, the best 'take' is always:
(1) Talk to a lawyer. (2) Don't say anything in the mean time.
I believe if the lawsuit were in Canada, doing the above would net you a loss in court.
On October 02 2010 00:18 FishForThought wrote: My take is: 1. You deny downloading the movie. 2. You reply to them stating facts such as there are multiple computers behind your router and the not so fact of 'One or more computers received a virus infection during that period of time'. 3. Throw in random crap about, if you ever find presence of the so called 'download content' in any shape and form, you will immediately delete it and remove any copies of it from your computer.
I think no matter the country, the best 'take' is always:
(1) Talk to a lawyer. (2) Don't say anything in the mean time.
I believe if the lawsuit were in Canada, doing the above would net you a loss in court.
Talking to a lawyer cost money.
If you talk to a lawyer every time someone threatens to sue you then, you'll be in the lawyer office a lot.
In any case, the only evidence they have is your ip address, which can be shared, hijacked or spoofed. So if you can prove that one or more the above has happened then you're not responsible.
On October 02 2010 00:18 FishForThought wrote: My take is: 1. You deny downloading the movie. 2. You reply to them stating facts such as there are multiple computers behind your router and the not so fact of 'One or more computers received a virus infection during that period of time'. 3. Throw in random crap about, if you ever find presence of the so called 'download content' in any shape and form, you will immediately delete it and remove any copies of it from your computer.
I think no matter the country, the best 'take' is always:
(1) Talk to a lawyer. (2) Don't say anything in the mean time.
I believe if the lawsuit were in Canada, doing the above would net you a loss in court.
There arent any stiff file sharing laws in Canada, at least not yet. Which is why Hollywood has threatened to release movies in Canada 6 months later to prevent piracy. So I tend to disagree, but you could be right who knows.
On October 02 2010 00:18 FishForThought wrote: My take is: 1. You deny downloading the movie. 2. You reply to them stating facts such as there are multiple computers behind your router and the not so fact of 'One or more computers received a virus infection during that period of time'. 3. Throw in random crap about, if you ever find presence of the so called 'download content' in any shape and form, you will immediately delete it and remove any copies of it from your computer.
I think no matter the country, the best 'take' is always:
(1) Talk to a lawyer. (2) Don't say anything in the mean time.
I believe if the lawsuit were in Canada, doing the above would net you a loss in court.
There arent any stiff file sharing laws in Canada, at least not yet. Which is why Hollywood has threatened to release movies in Canada 6 months later to prevent piracy. So I tend to disagree, but you could be right who knows.
Not sure if any of you are still following this thread but i will try to keep posted with updates:
first:
On October 02 2010 00:34 chongu wrote: so, was the movie any good? ;p feel bad for you regardless
that was a stupid comment... if you had taken the time to even read the short version of the OP you would have noticed i havent watched the movie, so i have nothing to answer to you. Dont feel bad for me, that helps me achieve nothing.
I havent talked to a lawyer yet because of lots of impediments, number one being that my german is not at a level where i can explain, provide proofs, understand the lawyer advice and so on in a comfortable manner. Here in the small city I am there seem to be lacking english-speaking lawyers, I keep trying to get in contact with one but so far nothing.
a quote i found on the net from a copyright infringement case:
Glen then goes on to explain in detail that it is hugely problematic to prove any damages to rightsholders other than the single copy an infringer has on their machine and being made available on BitTorrent.
“Even this is problematic as the monitoring software was the agent of the rightsholder and therefore no damage can be established,” he notes.
“Because of all of these factors I believe that it would be extremely difficult to establish with any accuracy that there has been sharing except with the monitoring system which is an action by the infringer for which no damages can be accrued.”
Just in case you missed that – “no damages can be accrued.”
“Therefore, it is my belief that the rights holder can only rely on the damage resulting from making a single copy of the work in infringement of the rights granted to the rightsholder under s16(a) of the CDPA 1988.”
So, while Andrew Crossley talks of people making available his clients’ copyright works to “potentially thousands” of other people, according to his advisor he can’t even prove a single filesharing-related infringement which results in a loss.
On October 02 2010 00:18 FishForThought wrote: My take is: 1. You deny downloading the movie. 2. You reply to them stating facts such as there are multiple computers behind your router and the not so fact of 'One or more computers received a virus infection during that period of time'. 3. Throw in random crap about, if you ever find presence of the so called 'download content' in any shape and form, you will immediately delete it and remove any copies of it from your computer.
I think no matter the country, the best 'take' is always:
(1) Talk to a lawyer. (2) Don't say anything in the mean time.
I believe if the lawsuit were in Canada, doing the above would net you a loss in court.
There arent any stiff file sharing laws in Canada, at least not yet. Which is why Hollywood has threatened to release movies in Canada 6 months later to prevent piracy. So I tend to disagree, but you could be right who knows.
Wow that will solve everything, So i can either go online and get my movie right away or wait 6 months to do it legally. Hmmmm tough decision
I understand... also i do find it doubtful that they can even prove that I downloaded the file considering that i have 2 pcs behind this router and this router has wireless connection on which even though password protected i have seen guys cracking wireless pass with my own eyes... thats the reason i mentioned earlier that their case might not hold up in court, but i might be wrong as i have never been to court before.
Don't use WEP encryption. It's so weak that you can crack it simply by listening to its wireless traffic and applying some very simple programs to it. No brute forcing necessary - the algorithm was just discovered (several years back, in fact) to be totally crackable with simple observation of traffic.
WPA is significantly more secure, and pretty much any wireless router nowadays supports it.
They have no proof, and IP address is not proof of infrignment at all, and they have no legal right to search your computer without a court order, and trust me, that would be laughed out of court.
And in fact, it's EU law that scraping the IP addresses from a torrent program is illegal, so infact you should be sueing them!
In the UK a law firm is being make millions for doing the same thing that's happening here.
The same thing happened to be a year ago, and it was again, something I downloaded a very long time a go. What you should have done (or do) is send a letter stating that they are mistaken, and they will likely drop the charges. The whole idea of the initial letter is a scare tactic to make you think "Oh, crap i'll do time!" You won't, don't pay the fine, it happened to me too!
There arent any stiff file sharing laws in Canada, at least not yet. Which is why Hollywood has threatened to release movies in Canada 6 months later to prevent piracy. So I tend to disagree, but you could be right who knows.
Statements like this make me doubt the sanity of businessmen. Unethical in the name of profit is one thing. Douchebaggey in the name of profit is one thing. But being douchebaggey while making business decisions that make no fucking sense economically....wtf.
On October 02 2010 00:18 FishForThought wrote: 3. Throw in random crap about, if you ever find presence of the so called 'download content' in any shape and form, you will immediately delete it and remove any copies of it from your computer.
I don't know the situation in civil cases in Germany, but generally speaking it always an EXTREMELY bad idea to try and tamper with evidence. Don't lie, don't cheat. You have good truthful defenses:
1. You can say with certainty you didn't download the movie they are accusing you of (you don't need to - and probably shouldn't - tell them you downloaded something else with a similar name)
2. You had a wireless router on your network at the time (meaning anybody could have cracked your network and downloaded with your IP)
3. You have no money (not a legal argument, but def. make sure you mention that
That said, if anybody threatens to sue you, report you to police, etc. GET A LAWYER. The threat will usually be empty, but you only need to make one stupid mistake and suddenly you're facing huge damages or criminal charges or whatever.
I would not pay, because that just gets you in their database of people who will actually pay their letters, plus you'll be admitting your guilt, so next time they can call you a "known infringer" or some other fancy term. A competent lawyer will almost certainly be able to make this go away by sending them a well-formulated letter. If you respond on your own there is a real chance you'll make a mistake and suddenly find yourself in big, big trouble, even if you're innocent.
Cannot stress this enough: Get a lawyer BEFORE it turns into a huge deal. The sooner you start making the right moves the quicker this will go away.
1) There is several law firms here in Germany who are specialized in this type of buisiness.
2) If they have sent you a physical IRL letter, then they must have gotten your adress from your ISP. ISPs will not give out this information usually unless forced to. Law fimrs like these are speciallized in getting the necessary documents for that though, and will usually get them in such large bundles that not every case can be checked properly by authorities.
3) If you worked with a file nearly identical in name to the one they accused you of, and point 2) applies as well, then we can be quite sure its not a random scam. Note that this does not necessarily mean their evidence will prove sufficient or even conclusive, especially when there might be a file discrepancy.
4) German judges on average are not too knowedgeable on internet, computers and the fine distinctions when having logged an IP adress is proof or not. There have been weird rulings in the past.
So in conclusion, I think this is serious enough to warrant professional help from a Lawyer - check german forums if you can speak our language to hopefully find a lawyer specialized in the defense of these cases - stuff like that happens A LOT, and is being discussed a ton on various german forums.
On October 04 2010 10:05 sylverfyre wrote: Don't use WEP encryption. It's so weak that you can crack it simply by listening to its wireless traffic and applying some very simple programs to it. No brute forcing necessary - the algorithm was just discovered (several years back, in fact) to be totally crackable with simple observation of traffic.
WPA is significantly more secure, and pretty much any wireless router nowadays supports it.
I use WPA2 TKIP, that doesnt mean that it cant be cracked, there is something called rainbow tables which anyone can just simply google for them and download them for free and allow you to crack WPA in minutes/hours... is stupid to be honest.
anyways an update:
Found a german forum dedicated to specifically this law firm, which has around 1700 pages of discussion about this topic. It turns out they have been doing this since 2004. The number of people they have brought to court: 2. Why? because the fools incriminated themselves thus giving legal ground to the law firm to go on for the lawsuit.
source: will add it when i find the link on my bookmarks xD
I think contacting the firm directly is the worst idea, and quoting one Law student from TL man power:
The reason why you seek a lawyer is because in law there are some words that you are familiar with but they have a completely different meaning than the one you know.
So you might be incriminating yourself without noticing.
I will continue updating in whatever i find, in case any other TL'er find itself in a similar situation.
On September 30 2010 02:41 Blackou wrote: From what i understand, he did NOT download that specific movie but a anime with almost the same name ( but with different copyright owners) so i guess it is not that simple in his case!
On September 30 2010 02:36 JQL wrote: . They have pretty much caught you downloading their copy righted works and have solid evidence. Your best to respond and ask for a settlement discount since both of you wont want to deal with attorney fees and the court..
This film has been downloaded from his ip, he cant deny this. Even if he havent done it, one computer who used his internet connection did it. Movie and Music companies often upload their files themself in filesharing networks and monitor them. So it is easy for them to see who is downloading and uploading (you getting sued for uploading at first. Since years many lawyers are doing this exlusively and sending out thousands of bills because it pays off. I hade the same problem 3 years ago (downloaded a game, had to pay 150€). I can only recommend to not use filesharing programs! Have also a look at www.123recht.de . There are a ton of people with the same problem where you can share your experiences.
Can you swap out the harddrives with another one? When you delete a file, testdisk 1.1.3 can still find it as it only relabels the area to "blank area here" when you delete files.
On December 03 2010 06:59 RaptorX wrote: Well im posting now to let you know that I havent got any other letters from these guys. It seems to be part of the "pay or else" wave.
So, I think im good to assume im safe. Thanks guys for your support. If anything else comes up I will update it here.
That's good you havn't recieved any followups. You might want to have legal representation in mind, though (do some research on a viable firm to represent you) incase the next thing they send you is a notice to be sued.
Heh, when I saw this topic appear again, I thought to myself, "Is RaptorX getting sued for the first time...twice?", until I saw his post.
I'm glad to see that this thing was nothing to be worried about after all. Well, at least I hope it isn't. Be careful next time you download anime, though, because the feds might just go after your ass again! =O
Well my english sucks so if its ok i describe the normal process in german:
Anwälte überwachen für die Konzerne die files, filtern die ips raus und gehen vor Gericht. Dieses fordert vom Internetanbieter die Daten hinter der ip, gibt diese den Anwälten und stellt das Verfahren anschließend ein. Die Anwälte schreiben dann die Abmahnung an den Betroffenen und drohen mit einem zivilrechtlichen Verfahren wenn nicht gezahlt wird. Die Rechtslage dahinter war bis vor einem Jahr unklar. Ich weis nicht wie es aktuell aussieht. Bis zu meinem Fall war es so, dass trotz tausenden Abmahnungen und "Nicht-Zahlern" noch kein Verfahren vor Gericht angerollt wurde.
On September 30 2010 02:41 Blackou wrote: From what i understand, he did NOT download that specific movie but a anime with almost the same name ( but with different copyright owners) so i guess it is not that simple in his case!
On September 30 2010 02:36 JQL wrote: . They have pretty much caught you downloading their copy righted works and have solid evidence. Your best to respond and ask for a settlement discount since both of you wont want to deal with attorney fees and the court..
This film has been downloaded from his ip, he cant deny this. Even if he havent done it, one computer who used his internet connection did it. Movie and Music companies often upload their files themself in filesharing networks and monitor them. So it is easy for them to see who is downloading and uploading (you getting sued for uploading at first. Since years many lawyers are doing this exlusively and sending out thousands of bills because it pays off. I hade the same problem 3 years ago (downloaded a game, had to pay 150€). I can only recommend to not use filesharing programs! Have also a look at www.123recht.de . There are a ton of people with the same problem where you can share your experiences.
What? No it wasn't -- that was already said repeatedly in this thread -_-.
On December 03 2010 07:43 Craton wrote: This was a rather interesting read, despite its length. I do find it hilarious how many people were off in left field, here.
On December 03 2010 07:27 Troopi wrote: This film has been downloaded from his ip, he cant deny this. Even if he havent done it, one computer who used his internet connection did it. Movie and Music companies often upload their files themself in filesharing networks and monitor them. So it is easy for them to see who is downloading and uploading (you getting sued for uploading at first. Since years many lawyers are doing this exlusively and sending out thousands of bills because it pays off. I hade the same problem 3 years ago (downloaded a game, had to pay 150€). I can only recommend to not use filesharing programs! Have also a look at www.123recht.de . There are a ton of people with the same problem where you can share your experiences.
What? No it wasn't -- that was already said repeatedly in this thread -_-.
Some people dont read and some other people are really trying to blame me. Not sure which side he is on.
Didn't read through the whole thread but I did read the op. The 936 fine will most likely be much much cheaper than any worth while attorney to fight the case. In addition, there is no guarantee that u will win and may have to pay much more than 936 on top of attorney fees. However, you should find a firm or individual attorney that specializes or handles these types of cases often and speak with them immediately. Most attorneys, at least here in the united states, will offer a free consultation to hear you out. You should talk to as many attorneys as you can until you feel comfortable with understanding the gravity of the situation.
On December 10 2010 06:59 mrgoochio wrote: Didn't read through the whole thread but I did read the op. The 936 fine will most likely be much much cheaper than any worth while attorney to fight the case. In addition, there is no guarantee that u will win and may have to pay much more than 936 on top of attorney fees. However, you should find a firm or individual attorney that specializes or handles these types of cases often and speak with them immediately. Most attorneys, at least here in the united states, will offer a free consultation to hear you out. You should talk to as many attorneys as you can until you feel comfortable with understanding the gravity of the situation.
Good luck
no idea of german law: yep you dont read a ~10 pages long thread: yea you give advice: si can you be even more wrong?
tl;dr thread:
he the OP found a forum regarding exactly his case. the law firm tries to accuse random people with formal wrong cases and get money, because they think actually, what you wrote there and pay because of fear and dumbness. mad props if you work for the firm that tried to get money from people because they don't know their rights.
pls dont give advice if someone is serious and you have no clue. thank you in future. everyone
EPT
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