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On June 06 2010 00:17 semantics wrote:
Yeah denouncing the right for something to exist is a great way to make it act more understanding and peaceful.
true:
Palestina before occupation and after, after, after...
israel should exist but on austria or german ground.. palestinians arent' guilty for crimes in WWII but they are punished for it again and again
i don't hate jews, i think that being a jew isn't same thing as being brutal war criminal.. but i do hate state of israel on palestinian ground.. my country was in war against fascistic ideology of big serbia and i know what is it like when some sick mind wants to take what is yours... in this case, israel took a land but hearts of ppl are still strong and in the end they will win in battle of cruel fascism called zionism or better nacism
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I don't want to be rude, but most of you are ignorant of the situation... and on israel's history. For exemple, why did they tried to force the blockus when obviously it seems possible to give aid to the gazouis via israel ?
- Most of the boat of the flotilla were load with construct kit to build gaza (yeah remember 2008/2009 israel destroyed most of the hospitals/school and even the UN facilities in gaza). But Israel refuse to let cement pass the blockade. That's why they decided to force their way through gaza. Obviously, their goal was to publicize the situation.
Even the Israelians don't know shit about gaza's blockade lolmao... there is no list of what you can and cannot bring to gaza: the israelien government change the list almost everyday and most of the humanitarian say that israel use the blockade to sell everything that they have in excess to the gazaouis.
Maybe i will post something about israel history and more specificly about IDF. There are a lot of books talking about the real history of israel.
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they have no rights to block gaza and that is all... it's like england says: well, we will block france now and you can't do nothing about it. We (england) will tell everyone what ou can bring in france or what you can't and what is most important - YOU WILL NOT BRING IT BY YOURSELF - WE WILL DO IT INSTEAD OF YOU
here is same thing, palestine was free country and after genocide and ethnic cleaning of palestinians israelians took their homes and everything.. imagine situation like that, to lose everything just coz of policie... no way, i would fight till death to get it back
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On June 07 2010 00:26 purgerinho wrote: they have no rights to block gaza and that is all... it's like england says: well, we will block france now and you can't do nothing about it. We (england) will tell everyone what ou can bring in france or what you can't and what is most important - YOU WILL NOT BRING IT BY YOURSELF - WE WILL DO IT INSTEAD OF YOU
here is same thing, palestine was free country and after genocide and ethnic cleaning of palestinians israelians took their homes and everything.. imagine situation like that, to lose everything just coz of policie... no way, i would fight till death to get it back
Palestine - free country ? Very interested to know the name of this country. Genocide ? After this terrible genocide there are arabs in israeli goverment and how many % of Israels population are arabs (palestinians are arabs, who live in Palestine, as much as i know).
Israel is just dumb to kill people, who want to be killed. They need no guns, just good publicity.
And more then everything compensation for all lost there homes and lives in this unholy conflict. Blame USA, Britain and Soviet Union for starting this conflict and support both sides with guns.
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They give this option to those who send aid.
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On June 07 2010 00:16 purgerinho wrote:![[image loading]](http://elespiritudelchemin.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/palestina-israel.jpg)
I see a lot of British land being given to the Jewish people, and the squatters being kicked out.
And then a lot of land captured when different arab countries surrounding Israel attacked (and got whupped).
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On June 07 2010 09:01 SnK-Arcbound wrote:I see a lot of British land being given to the Jewish people, and the squatters being kicked out. And then a lot of land captured when different arab countries surrounding Israel attacked (and got whupped).
This has to be the dumbest fucking post in this entire thread.
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On June 07 2010 10:25 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2010 09:01 SnK-Arcbound wrote:On June 07 2010 00:16 purgerinho wrote:![[image loading]](http://elespiritudelchemin.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/palestina-israel.jpg) I see a lot of British land being given to the Jewish people, and the squatters being kicked out. And then a lot of land captured when different arab countries surrounding Israel attacked (and got whupped). This has to be the dumbest fucking post in this entire thread. not if you read it as sarcasm about countries lines are arbitrary and change throughout the ages.
But then you have to read into posts like some ppl do in this thread =p
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On June 07 2010 09:01 SnK-Arcbound wrote: I see a lot of British land being given to the Jewish people, and the squatters being kicked out.
And then a lot of land captured when different arab countries surrounding Israel attacked (and got whupped).
Ahahha
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On June 07 2010 10:30 semantics wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2010 10:25 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:On June 07 2010 09:01 SnK-Arcbound wrote:On June 07 2010 00:16 purgerinho wrote:![[image loading]](http://elespiritudelchemin.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/palestina-israel.jpg) I see a lot of British land being given to the Jewish people, and the squatters being kicked out. And then a lot of land captured when different arab countries surrounding Israel attacked (and got whupped). This has to be the dumbest fucking post in this entire thread. not if you read it as sarcasm about countries lines are arbitrary and change throughout the ages. But then you have to read into posts like some ppl do in this thread =p
No semantics, you're just living up to your name. It's a terrible, stupid post because he's hoping to instigate another stupid argument with these inflammatory remarks.
This isn't a philosophical discussion about how countries develop just as it isn't about anti-semitism. No matter how much you and others try and confuse the issue.
EDIT- Edited out the word retarded. You're right, not the best word to use by any means. My apologies.
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On June 06 2010 20:46 Subversive wrote: You're right. You definitely get to shoot someone if they make a racist remark. Gods...
Why do you continuosly put words in my mouth? I didn't say anybody deserved to get shot for it. I said it was provocation.
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On June 07 2010 23:25 Subversive wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2010 10:30 semantics wrote:On June 07 2010 10:25 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:On June 07 2010 09:01 SnK-Arcbound wrote:On June 07 2010 00:16 purgerinho wrote:![[image loading]](http://elespiritudelchemin.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/palestina-israel.jpg) I see a lot of British land being given to the Jewish people, and the squatters being kicked out. And then a lot of land captured when different arab countries surrounding Israel attacked (and got whupped). This has to be the dumbest fucking post in this entire thread. not if you read it as sarcasm about countries lines are arbitrary and change throughout the ages. But then you have to read into posts like some ppl do in this thread =p No semantics, you're just living up to your name. It's a terrible, retarded post because he's hoping to instigate another stupid argument with these inflammatory remarks. This isn't a philosophical discussion about how countries develop just as it isn't about anti-semitism. No matter how much you and others try and confuse the issue.
I am not Barack Obama but I approve of this message (except for the word retarded). Really to all of you who haven't formed your own opinion on the mid east situation or this particular of ship to gaza I recommend to look at Subversives, Stealthblues posts.
Anyway to keep the thread going I'd like to discuss something. Is there any possible chance to have a sensible genuine conversation about borders and peoples rights with a zionist today? Every single word that can be seen as negative will be used against the outside world by Israel and every single time a statement dissapproves their political/military action they claim it to be antisemistic.
I'd like to mention another example of this: A swedish journalist wrote an article claiming that the israeli military inofficially kidnap Palestine citizens and steal their organs for Israeli medical use. This caused an outrage in Israel. Their people started to boycott Ikea and the foreign minister told the swedish gouvernment to close down the paper that had published the Article. The swedish foreign minister answered explained to him that this isn't legal in sweden and that isn't how a democracy is supposed to work. It's also illegal within your own law in Israel to do so.
Thing calmed down in time, but the article was debated in sweden because it used unknown sources. Even if the question had to be answered all we could trust was the journalists word.
About a month later it's revealed that Jews living in America have bought and sold stolen organs. It's horrible but still doesn't prove what the journalist was writing about and his sources still wanted to stay unknown because of the risks of going out in public.
Then an anthropologist happens to do a field work in Israel and Interview doctors. Multiple doctors reveal to her that the Israeli military have been kidnapping Palestine citiziens, killed and stolen their organs to help their own soldiers.
So here we are today again. Israel calls us antisemites and claims that everyobdy on the ships are terrorists and it's Israel against the world yada yada yada. They dissapprove of the UN's idea of a objective investigation on the Ship to gaza events.
Could they possibly maybe perhaps know that facts of their own actions would reveal lies of their gouvernment? Are they aware of that their actions are unjust against international law and want to hide it from us? Has this happened before and will it happen again?
Dear Israel. It's not u against the world. It's you believing that it is.
If Antisemism by your definition is "standing up for international just law and human rights, peoples right to know the truth of their gouvernments actions and not lifting up a religious idea as something greater than every other human beings natural right to live" If that's the case which it mostly seems to be according to Israeli officials then yes I am an antisemit.
If antisemitism is "Antisemitism (also spelled anti-semitism or anti-Semitism) is prejudice against or hostility towards Jews, often rooted in hatred of their ethnic background, culture, and/or religion. In its extreme form, it "attributes to the Jews an exceptional position among all other civilizations, defames them as an inferior group and denies their being part of the nation[s]" in which they reside.[1] A person who practices antisemitism is called an "antisemite."
Then I'm not a antisemite.
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On June 06 2010 23:57 Klaz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2010 18:42 Squeegy wrote: Clearly. No other routes for the humanitarian aid existed. No soldiers were beaten bloody. No Auschwitz or 9/11 references were made. Correct. No other routes existed that weren't policed arbitrarily to prevent aid that was really needed from reaching the people of gaza. Soldiers were definitely beaten, but 45 acitivists were shot out of which (at least ) 9 were killed and countless others were violently brutalised. As for the last point, again, out of context without a full release of evidence. It's actually incredibly disingenuous in my opinion to try and use any video/photographic/media evidence presented by the Israelis while knowing full well that they are hanging on to the majority of it and only putting out edited stuff. It's almost like you intentionally want to ignore the big red question mark every time that kind of stuff is brought up. (What are they NOT showing and why?) I believe such selective presentation of information is casually referred to as PR spin or propaganda.
I'm not aware of even a single case where military released more than just bits of the material they possessed. This is the case whether there was a controvery or not. This is no reason to give more value to the word of the activists over the word of IDF.
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But being aware of that;doesn't that make the released tape even more insignificant?
In other news: Israel rejects multinational investigation
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/netanyahu-rejects-unled-inquiry-into-aid-ship-shootings-1993250.html
+ Show Spoiler +Israel has made it clear it would not accept a UN plan for a multinational investigation into the lethal commando raid on a Turkish passenger ship carrying aid and hundreds of activists to Gaza.
UN Secretary General Ban Ki-Moon had put a proposal to the Israeli Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, for an international committee to carry out an inquiry into the fatal shootings by Israeli forces of nine men on board the Mavi Marmara.
The proposal followed a call last week by the UN Security Council for an impartial investigation.
But Michael Oren, Israel's ambassador to the US, said, "We are rejecting an international commission." Instead he told the Fox News Channel that Israel was discussing with the US administration "a way in which our enquiry will take place". He added: "Israel is a democratic nation. Israel has the ability and the right to investigate itself, not to be investigated by any international board."
By contrast, a group of 10 apparently senior Israeli naval reserve officers last night wrote to Mr Netanyahu demanding an external enquiry and rejecting "widespread claims" of a failure of intelligence or public relations. Instead, the officers said, "We think that the plan was doomed to failure from the beginning."
The letter added: "We protest the fact that responsibility for the tragic results was immediately thrust onto the organisers of the flotilla. This demonstrates contempt for the responsibility that belongs principally to the hierarchy of commanders and those who approved the mission. This shows contempt for the values of professionalism, the purity of weapons and for human lives."
Mr Netanyahu convened a meeting of the seven-strong inner group of senior Cabinet ministers last night, partly to discuss the form of an inquiry that US President Barack Obama said last week should be "of international standards". Officials in Jerusalem insisted that Mr Netanyahu had only told his weekly meeting of the Cabinet that earlier reports that he had accepted the UN plan were untrue, and that discussions were continuing. Israeli officials say the committee would have included representatives from Israel, Turkey, and would have been chaired by Geoffrey Palmer, the former New Zealand Prime Minister who is an expert on maritime law.
Israel insists that its troops only opened fire after coming under heavy attack with knives, metal rods, and two pistols snatched from the arriving commandos, seven of whom it says were wounded. Photographs that were published by the Turkish newspaper Hurriyet and also obtained by Reuters show bleeding and cowering Israeli troops on board the Mavi Marmara surrounded by activists.
Salih Bilici, spokesman for IHH, the Islamist Turkish foundation that helped to organise the flotilla, and which Israel accuses of links with Hamas, said the pictures had been taken by one of its members.
But the Turkish Foreign Minister, Ahmet Davutoglu, told CNN Israel's rejection of an international inquiry showed it wanted to cover up the facts of the raid. "We want to know the facts," he said. "If Israel rejects this, it means it is also another proof of their guilt."
Steps were under way yesterday for the immediate deportation of the 11 passengers and nine crew members from the Irish vessel Rachel Corrie, which was boarded by the Israeli military without incident on Saturday and diverted to the Israeli port of Ashdod.
Contrasting the Rachel Corrie with the Mavi Marmara, Mr Netanyahu told the Cabinet yesterday that a smaller group of "violent extremists" had boarded the latter ship separately at a "different city" from hundreds of other passengers and with the deliberate intention of clashing with troops.
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On June 08 2010 00:30 SirGlinG wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2010 23:25 Subversive wrote:On June 07 2010 10:30 semantics wrote:On June 07 2010 10:25 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:On June 07 2010 09:01 SnK-Arcbound wrote:On June 07 2010 00:16 purgerinho wrote:![[image loading]](http://elespiritudelchemin.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/palestina-israel.jpg) I see a lot of British land being given to the Jewish people, and the squatters being kicked out. And then a lot of land captured when different arab countries surrounding Israel attacked (and got whupped). This has to be the dumbest fucking post in this entire thread. not if you read it as sarcasm about countries lines are arbitrary and change throughout the ages. But then you have to read into posts like some ppl do in this thread =p No semantics, you're just living up to your name. It's a terrible, retarded post because he's hoping to instigate another stupid argument with these inflammatory remarks. This isn't a philosophical discussion about how countries develop just as it isn't about anti-semitism. No matter how much you and others try and confuse the issue. I am not Barack Obama but I approve of this message (except for the word retarded). Really to all of you who haven't formed your own opinion on the mid east situation or this particular of ship to gaza I recommend to look at Subversives, Stealthblues posts. Anyway to keep the thread going I'd like to discuss something. Is there any possible chance to have a sensible genuine conversation about borders and peoples rights with a zionist today? Every single word that can be seen as negative will be used against the outside world by Israel and every single time a statement dissapproves their political/military action they claim it to be antisemistic. I'd like to mention another example of this: A swedish journalist wrote an article claiming that the israeli military inofficially kidnap Palestine citizens and steal their organs for Israeli medical use. This caused an outrage in Israel. Their people started to boycott Ikea and the foreign minister told the swedish gouvernment to close down the paper that had published the Article. The swedish foreign minister answered explained to him that this isn't legal in sweden and that isn't how a democracy is supposed to work. It's also illegal within your own law in Israel to do so. Thing calmed down in time, but the article was debated in sweden because it used unknown sources. Even if the question had to be answered all we could trust was the journalists word. About a month later it's revealed that Jews living in America have bought and sold stolen organs. It's horrible but still doesn't prove what the journalist was writing about and his sources still wanted to stay unknown because of the risks of going out in public. Then an anthropologist happens to do a field work in Israel and Interview doctors. Multiple doctors reveal to her that the Israeli military have been kidnapping Palestine citiziens, killed and stolen their organs to help their own soldiers. So here we are today again. Israel calls us antisemites and claims that everyobdy on the ships are terrorists and it's Israel against the world yada yada yada. They dissapprove of the UN's idea of a objective investigation on the Ship to gaza events. Could they possibly maybe perhaps know that facts of their own actions would reveal lies of their gouvernment? Are they aware of that their actions are unjust against international law and want to hide it from us? Has this happened before and will it happen again? Dear Israel. It's not u against the world. It's you believing that it is. If Antisemism by your definition is "standing up for international just law and human rights, peoples right to know the truth of their gouvernments actions and not lifting up a religious idea as something greater than every other human beings natural right to live" If that's the case which it mostly seems to be according to Israeli officials then yes I am an antisemit. If antisemitism is "Antisemitism (also spelled anti-semitism or anti-Semitism) is prejudice against or hostility towards Jews, often rooted in hatred of their ethnic background, culture, and/or religion. In its extreme form, it "attributes to the Jews an exceptional position among all other civilizations, defames them as an inferior group and denies their being part of the nation[s]" in which they reside.[1] A person who practices antisemitism is called an "antisemite." Then I'm not a antisemite. The situation is more complex. First, you must remember that israel is the only country in the world with no delimitation of the frontier in the constitution. Every country give the limit of their territory in their constitution. (Well to be precise, israel have no constitution for some reasons, but there is some laws, like the basic law, that everybody consider as some sort of constitution). In every war, except for the second Lebanon war (2006), Israel always had territory ambition (during the 6 days war, don't forget they started the war and took a part of Egypte, giving it back after due to international pressure): Israel is in fact (or was) a project of expansion. That's for the first part about the problem with israel and their borders.
For the second part, Israel is a country with identity problem. All their history is based on blood and lies. There are a lot of books talking about the true history of Israel (look at the new israeli historian). For exemple The Holocaust Industry for Finkelstein (who is a us citizen, not israeli) and Schlomo Sand The Invention of the Jewish People. That's why it's so hard to talk with Israelis, they feel insecurity and only react with violence.
There are like 10000000 reasons to trust the activist and not the IDF. Just look at the history of this army: only massacre, mystakes and lies.
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I believe that Iran will crush some day this pathetic "country".
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On June 08 2010 01:38 Native wrote: I believe that Iran will crush some day this pathetic "country".
Sheesh. Given the pervasiveness of this type of sentiment, how can anyone, in good faith, wonder why Israel does what it does? Yeah, sometimes they screw up (like with this ship boarding), bur you can't really blame them for trying.
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On June 08 2010 01:58 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2010 01:38 Native wrote: I believe that Iran will crush some day this pathetic "country". Sheesh. Given the pervasiveness of this type of sentiment, how can anyone, in good faith, wonder why Israel does what it does? Yeah, sometimes they screw up (like with this ship boarding), bur you can't really blame them for trying. Israel created the antagonism against them themselves. They only respond with violence and barbary, that's why everybody hates them in the arabic world. There is no bureaucratie in islamic country unlike in our country. It's more a patchwork of tribes and not one big state and one big religion. So, in these country, people need to look out for themselves, and can't rely on police or army... That's why the talion law is so important in arabic's country (an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth), your honor is the only way to defend yourself. Israeli sucked up big time since the beginning in 1948 were they used, intentionnaly or not, massacre to push the arabic country to war and declare their independance. See for exemple the Deir Yassin massacre: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_de_Deir_Yassin
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On June 08 2010 02:11 ArKaDo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2010 01:58 xDaunt wrote:On June 08 2010 01:38 Native wrote: I believe that Iran will crush some day this pathetic "country". Sheesh. Given the pervasiveness of this type of sentiment, how can anyone, in good faith, wonder why Israel does what it does? Yeah, sometimes they screw up (like with this ship boarding), bur you can't really blame them for trying. Israel created the antagonism against them themselves. They only respond with violence and barbary, that's why everybody hates them in the arabic world. There is no bureaucratie in islamic country unlike in our country. It's more a patchwork of tribes and not one big state and one big religion. So, in these country, people need to look out for themselves, and can't rely on police or army... That's why the talion law is so important in arabic's country (an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth), your honor is the only way to defend yourself. Israeli sucked up big time since the beginning in 1948 were they used, intentionnaly or not, massacre to push the arabic country to war and declare their independance. See for exemple the Deir Yassin massacre: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_de_Deir_Yassin
No one's going to disagree that Israel brought much of the hatred upon itself. However, what rational person is going to stand idly by as people threaten to destroy him when the people making those threats are actually taking steps towards that end? That's the point that you and a lot of people are missing.
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