On June 08 2010 01:38 Native wrote: I believe that Iran will crush some day this pathetic "country".
Sheesh. Given the pervasiveness of this type of sentiment, how can anyone, in good faith, wonder why Israel does what it does? Yeah, sometimes they screw up (like with this ship boarding), bur you can't really blame them for trying.
Israel created the antagonism against them themselves. They only respond with violence and barbary, that's why everybody hates them in the arabic world. There is no bureaucratie in islamic country unlike in our country. It's more a patchwork of tribes and not one big state and one big religion. So, in these country, people need to look out for themselves, and can't rely on police or army... That's why the talion law is so important in arabic's country (an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth), your honor is the only way to defend yourself. Israeli sucked up big time since the beginning in 1948 were they used, intentionnaly or not, massacre to push the arabic country to war and declare their independance. See for exemple the Deir Yassin massacre: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_de_Deir_Yassin
No one's going to disagree that Israel brought much of the hatred upon itself. However, what rational person is going to stand idly by as people threaten to destroy him when the people making those threats are actually taking steps towards that end? That's the point that you and a lot of people are missing.
Well, who said they will destroy Israel? Iran never said that, they said that Israel's regime could not last, which is true by the way (just look at the number of arabic people in Israel and how they are considered in the constitution). Even Hamas proposed to accept Israel some times ago.
On June 08 2010 01:38 Native wrote: I believe that Iran will crush some day this pathetic "country".
Sheesh. Given the pervasiveness of this type of sentiment, how can anyone, in good faith, wonder why Israel does what it does? Yeah, sometimes they screw up (like with this ship boarding), bur you can't really blame them for trying.
Israel created the antagonism against them themselves. They only respond with violence and barbary, that's why everybody hates them in the arabic world. There is no bureaucratie in islamic country unlike in our country. It's more a patchwork of tribes and not one big state and one big religion. So, in these country, people need to look out for themselves, and can't rely on police or army... That's why the talion law is so important in arabic's country (an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth), your honor is the only way to defend yourself. Israeli sucked up big time since the beginning in 1948 were they used, intentionnaly or not, massacre to push the arabic country to war and declare their independance. See for exemple the Deir Yassin massacre: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_de_Deir_Yassin
No one's going to disagree that Israel brought much of the hatred upon itself. However, what rational person is going to stand idly by as people threaten to destroy him when the people making those threats are actually taking steps towards that end? That's the point that you and a lot of people are missing.
Well, who said they will destroy Israel? Iran never said that, they said that Israel's regime could not last, which is true by the way (just look at the number of arabic people in Israel and how they are considered in the constitution). Even Hamas proposed to accept Israel some times ago.
What rock are you living under? How in the world have you missed all of the threats against Israel's very existence? Ever heard of a guy from Iran named Ahmadinejad? Neither Hamas nor Hezbollah accept Israel's existence.
I see a lot of British land being given to the Jewish people, and the squatters being kicked out.
And then a lot of land captured when different arab countries surrounding Israel attacked (and got whupped).
This has to be the dumbest fucking post in this entire thread.
not if you read it as sarcasm about countries lines are arbitrary and change throughout the ages.
But then you have to read into posts like some ppl do in this thread =p
No semantics, you're just living up to your name. It's a terrible, retarded post because he's hoping to instigate another stupid argument with these inflammatory remarks.
This isn't a philosophical discussion about how countries develop just as it isn't about anti-semitism. No matter how much you and others try and confuse the issue.
I am not Barack Obama but I approve of this message (except for the word retarded). Really to all of you who haven't formed your own opinion on the mid east situation or this particular of ship to gaza I recommend to look at Subversives, Stealthblues posts.
Anyway to keep the thread going I'd like to discuss something. Is there any possible chance to have a sensible genuine conversation about borders and peoples rights with a zionist today? Every single word that can be seen as negative will be used against the outside world by Israel and every single time a statement dissapproves their political/military action they claim it to be antisemistic.
I'd like to mention another example of this: A swedish journalist wrote an article claiming that the israeli military inofficially kidnap Palestine citizens and steal their organs for Israeli medical use. This caused an outrage in Israel. Their people started to boycott Ikea and the foreign minister told the swedish gouvernment to close down the paper that had published the Article. The swedish foreign minister answered explained to him that this isn't legal in sweden and that isn't how a democracy is supposed to work. It's also illegal within your own law in Israel to do so.
Thing calmed down in time, but the article was debated in sweden because it used unknown sources. Even if the question had to be answered all we could trust was the journalists word.
About a month later it's revealed that Jews living in America have bought and sold stolen organs. It's horrible but still doesn't prove what the journalist was writing about and his sources still wanted to stay unknown because of the risks of going out in public.
Then an anthropologist happens to do a field work in Israel and Interview doctors. Multiple doctors reveal to her that the Israeli military have been kidnapping Palestine citiziens, killed and stolen their organs to help their own soldiers.
So here we are today again. Israel calls us antisemites and claims that everyobdy on the ships are terrorists and it's Israel against the world yada yada yada. They dissapprove of the UN's idea of a objective investigation on the Ship to gaza events.
Could they possibly maybe perhaps know that facts of their own actions would reveal lies of their gouvernment? Are they aware of that their actions are unjust against international law and want to hide it from us? Has this happened before and will it happen again?
Dear Israel. It's not u against the world. It's you believing that it is.
If Antisemism by your definition is "standing up for international just law and human rights, peoples right to know the truth of their gouvernments actions and not lifting up a religious idea as something greater than every other human beings natural right to live" If that's the case which it mostly seems to be according to Israeli officials then yes I am an antisemit.
If antisemitism is "Antisemitism (also spelled anti-semitism or anti-Semitism) is prejudice against or hostility towards Jews, often rooted in hatred of their ethnic background, culture, and/or religion. In its extreme form, it "attributes to the Jews an exceptional position among all other civilizations, defames them as an inferior group and denies their being part of the nation[s]" in which they reside.[1] A person who practices antisemitism is called an "antisemite."
Then I'm not a antisemite.
The situation is more complex. First, you must remember that israel is the only country in the world with no delimitation of the frontier in the constitution. Every country give the limit of their territory in their constitution. (Well to be precise, israel have no constitution for some reasons, but there is some laws, like the basic law, that everybody consider as some sort of constitution). In every war, except for the second Lebanon war (2006), Israel always had territory ambition (during the 6 days war, don't forget they started the war and took a part of Egypte, giving it back after due to international pressure): Israel is in fact (or was) a project of expansion. That's for the first part about the problem with israel and their borders.
For the second part, Israel is a country with identity problem. All their history is based on blood and lies. There are a lot of books talking about the true history of Israel (look at the new israeli historian). For exemple The Holocaust Industry for Finkelstein (who is a us citizen, not israeli) and Schlomo Sand The Invention of the Jewish People. That's why it's so hard to talk with Israelis, they feel insecurity and only react with violence.
There are like 10000000 reasons to trust the activist and not the IDF. Just look at the history of this army: only massacre, mystakes and lies.
The Identity problem is a big issue. And sadly the ship to gaza situation will probably only make the Israeli unite in a we against the world. Unity in a escapistic quest from the truth and a peaceful solution isn't a step in the right direction.
On June 08 2010 01:38 Native wrote: I believe that Iran will crush some day this pathetic "country".
Sheesh. Given the pervasiveness of this type of sentiment, how can anyone, in good faith, wonder why Israel does what it does? Yeah, sometimes they screw up (like with this ship boarding), bur you can't really blame them for trying.
Israel created the antagonism against them themselves. They only respond with violence and barbary, that's why everybody hates them in the arabic world. There is no bureaucratie in islamic country unlike in our country. It's more a patchwork of tribes and not one big state and one big religion. So, in these country, people need to look out for themselves, and can't rely on police or army... That's why the talion law is so important in arabic's country (an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth), your honor is the only way to defend yourself. Israeli sucked up big time since the beginning in 1948 were they used, intentionnaly or not, massacre to push the arabic country to war and declare their independance. See for exemple the Deir Yassin massacre: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_de_Deir_Yassin
No one's going to disagree that Israel brought much of the hatred upon itself. However, what rational person is going to stand idly by as people threaten to destroy him when the people making those threats are actually taking steps towards that end? That's the point that you and a lot of people are missing.
Well, who said they will destroy Israel? Iran never said that, they said that Israel's regime could not last, which is true by the way (just look at the number of arabic people in Israel and how they are considered in the constitution). Even Hamas proposed to accept Israel some times ago.
What rock are you living under? How in the world have you missed all of the threats against Israel's very existence? Ever heard of a guy from Iran named Ahmadinejad? Neither Hamas nor Hezbollah accept Israel's existence.
Actually, the irony here is that the rock you're living under could be appropriately termed the "pro-Israel American media".
On June 08 2010 01:38 Native wrote: I believe that Iran will crush some day this pathetic "country".
Sheesh. Given the pervasiveness of this type of sentiment, how can anyone, in good faith, wonder why Israel does what it does? Yeah, sometimes they screw up (like with this ship boarding), bur you can't really blame them for trying.
Israel created the antagonism against them themselves. They only respond with violence and barbary, that's why everybody hates them in the arabic world. There is no bureaucratie in islamic country unlike in our country. It's more a patchwork of tribes and not one big state and one big religion. So, in these country, people need to look out for themselves, and can't rely on police or army... That's why the talion law is so important in arabic's country (an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth), your honor is the only way to defend yourself. Israeli sucked up big time since the beginning in 1948 were they used, intentionnaly or not, massacre to push the arabic country to war and declare their independance. See for exemple the Deir Yassin massacre: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_de_Deir_Yassin
No one's going to disagree that Israel brought much of the hatred upon itself. However, what rational person is going to stand idly by as people threaten to destroy him when the people making those threats are actually taking steps towards that end? That's the point that you and a lot of people are missing.
Well, who said they will destroy Israel? Iran never said that, they said that Israel's regime could not last, which is true by the way (just look at the number of arabic people in Israel and how they are considered in the constitution). Even Hamas proposed to accept Israel some times ago.
What rock are you living under? How in the world have you missed all of the threats against Israel's very existence? Ever heard of a guy from Iran named Ahmadinejad? Neither Hamas nor Hezbollah accept Israel's existence.
Actually, the irony here is that the rock you're living under could be appropriately termed the "pro-Israel American media".
For those who can't understand why people would have something against Israeli politics and stand by muslim countries even though their values differ from ones own.
On June 08 2010 01:38 Native wrote: I believe that Iran will crush some day this pathetic "country".
Sheesh. Given the pervasiveness of this type of sentiment, how can anyone, in good faith, wonder why Israel does what it does? Yeah, sometimes they screw up (like with this ship boarding), bur you can't really blame them for trying.
Israel created the antagonism against them themselves. They only respond with violence and barbary, that's why everybody hates them in the arabic world. There is no bureaucratie in islamic country unlike in our country. It's more a patchwork of tribes and not one big state and one big religion. So, in these country, people need to look out for themselves, and can't rely on police or army... That's why the talion law is so important in arabic's country (an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth), your honor is the only way to defend yourself. Israeli sucked up big time since the beginning in 1948 were they used, intentionnaly or not, massacre to push the arabic country to war and declare their independance. See for exemple the Deir Yassin massacre: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_de_Deir_Yassin
No one's going to disagree that Israel brought much of the hatred upon itself. However, what rational person is going to stand idly by as people threaten to destroy him when the people making those threats are actually taking steps towards that end? That's the point that you and a lot of people are missing.
Well, who said they will destroy Israel? Iran never said that, they said that Israel's regime could not last, which is true by the way (just look at the number of arabic people in Israel and how they are considered in the constitution). Even Hamas proposed to accept Israel some times ago.
What rock are you living under? How in the world have you missed all of the threats against Israel's very existence? Ever heard of a guy from Iran named Ahmadinejad? Neither Hamas nor Hezbollah accept Israel's existence.
Actually, the irony here is that the rock you're living under could be appropriately termed the "pro-Israel American media".
There's nothing particularly pro-Israeli about my point. If other countries and groups actively, openly, and repeatedly threaten Israel's existence, no one can reasonably expect Israel to just stand idly by. I wouldn't fault any nation for defending itself from perceived foreign aggression, whether it be Taiwan, North Korea, or (*gasp*) Israel. What kind of dream world are you people living in?
On June 08 2010 01 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 08 2010 01 end_of_the_skype_highlighting:21 ArKaDo wrote:
On June 08 2010 00:30 SirGlinG wrote:
On June 07 2010 23:25 Subversive wrote:
On June 07 2010 10:30 semantics wrote:
On June 07 2010 10:25 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
On June 07 2010 09:01 SnK-Arcbound wrote:
On June 07 2010 00:16 purgerinho wrote:
I see a lot of British land being given to the Jewish people, and the squatters being kicked out.
And then a lot of land captured when different arab countries surrounding Israel attacked (and got whupped).
This has to be the dumbest fucking post in this entire thread.
not if you read it as sarcasm about countries lines are arbitrary and change throughout the ages.
But then you have to read into posts like some ppl do in this thread =p
No semantics, you're just living up to your name. It's a terrible, retarded post because he's hoping to instigate another stupid argument with these inflammatory remarks.
This isn't a philosophical discussion about how countries develop just as it isn't about anti-semitism. No matter how much you and others try and confuse the issue.
I am not Barack Obama but I approve of this message (except for the word retarded). Really to all of you who haven't formed your own opinion on the mid east situation or this particular of ship to gaza I recommend to look at Subversives, Stealthblues posts.
Anyway to keep the thread going I'd like to discuss something. Is there any possible chance to have a sensible genuine conversation about borders and peoples rights with a zionist today? Every single word that can be seen as negative will be used against the outside world by Israel and every single time a statement dissapproves their political/military action they claim it to be antisemistic.
I'd like to mention another example of this: A swedish journalist wrote an article claiming that the israeli military inofficially kidnap Palestine citizens and steal their organs for Israeli medical use. This caused an outrage in Israel. Their people started to boycott Ikea and the foreign minister told the swedish gouvernment to close down the paper that had published the Article. The swedish foreign minister answered explained to him that this isn't legal in sweden and that isn't how a democracy is supposed to work. It's also illegal within your own law in Israel to do so.
Thing calmed down in time, but the article was debated in sweden because it used unknown sources. Even if the question had to be answered all we could trust was the journalists word.
About a month later it's revealed that Jews living in America have bought and sold stolen organs. It's horrible but still doesn't prove what the journalist was writing about and his sources still wanted to stay unknown because of the risks of going out in public.
Then an anthropologist happens to do a field work in Israel and Interview doctors. Multiple doctors reveal to her that the Israeli military have been kidnapping Palestine citiziens, killed and stolen their organs to help their own soldiers.
So here we are today again. Israel calls us antisemites and claims that everyobdy on the ships are terrorists and it's Israel against the world yada yada yada. They dissapprove of the UN's idea of a objective investigation on the Ship to gaza events.
Could they possibly maybe perhaps know that facts of their own actions would reveal lies of their gouvernment? Are they aware of that their actions are unjust against international law and want to hide it from us? Has this happened before and will it happen again?
Dear Israel. It's not u against the world. It's you believing that it is.
If Antisemism by your definition is "standing up for international just law and human rights, peoples right to know the truth of their gouvernments actions and not lifting up a religious idea as something greater than every other human beings natural right to live" If that's the case which it mostly seems to be according to Israeli officials then yes I am an antisemit.
If antisemitism is "Antisemitism (also spelled anti-semitism or anti-Semitism) is prejudice against or hostility towards Jews, often rooted in hatred of their ethnic background, culture, and/or religion. In its extreme form, it "attributes to the Jews an exceptional position among all other civilizations, defames them as an inferior group and denies their being part of the nation[s]" in which they reside.[1] A person who practices antisemitism is called an "antisemite."
Then I'm not a antisemite.
The situation is more complex. First, you must remember that israel is the only country in the world with no delimitation of the frontier in the constitution. Every country give the limit of their territory in their constitution. (Well to be precise, israel have no constitution for some reasons, but there is some laws, like the basic law, that everybody consider as some sort of constitution). In every war, except for the second Lebanon war (2006), Israel always had territory ambition (during the 6 days war, don't forget they started the war and took a part of Egypte, giving it back after due to international pressure): Israel is in fact (or was) a project of expansion. That's for the first part about the problem with israel and their borders.
For the second part, Israel is a country with identity problem. All their history is based on blood and lies. There are a lot of books talking about the true history of Israel (look at the new israeli historian). For exemple The Holocaust Industry for Finkelstein (who is a us citizen, not israeli) and Schlomo Sand The Invention of the Jewish People. That's why it's so hard to talk with Israelis, they feel insecurity and only react with violence.
There are like 10000000 reasons to trust the activist and not the IDF. Just look at the history of this army: only massacre, mystakes and lies.
The Identity problem is a big issue. And sadly the ship to gaza situation will probably only make the Israeli unite in a we against the world. Unity in a escapistic quest from the truth and a peaceful solution isn't a step in the right direction.
Speaking of unity and of the book The Invention of the Jewish People I found this interesting quotation in the wiki page for it:
Tom Segev, says Sand's book "is intended to promote the idea that Israel should be a 'state of all its citizens' – Jews, Arabs and others – in contrast to its declared identity as a 'Jewish and democratic' state."
So Israel is declared to be for Jewish people only? Then what chance do Arab people living in Israel have for living an equal life? I thought there are Arab members of Israel's parliament. Are they just for show and have no real power?
On June 08 2010 01:38 Native wrote: I believe that Iran will crush some day this pathetic "country".
Sheesh. Given the pervasiveness of this type of sentiment, how can anyone, in good faith, wonder why Israel does what it does? Yeah, sometimes they screw up (like with this ship boarding), bur you can't really blame them for trying.
Israel created the antagonism against them themselves. They only respond with violence and barbary, that's why everybody hates them in the arabic world. There is no bureaucratie in islamic country unlike in our country. It's more a patchwork of tribes and not one big state and one big religion. So, in these country, people need to look out for themselves, and can't rely on police or army... That's why the talion law is so important in arabic's country (an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth), your honor is the only way to defend yourself. Israeli sucked up big time since the beginning in 1948 were they used, intentionnaly or not, massacre to push the arabic country to war and declare their independance. See for exemple the Deir Yassin massacre: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_de_Deir_Yassin
No one's going to disagree that Israel brought much of the hatred upon itself. However, what rational person is going to stand idly by as people threaten to destroy him when the people making those threats are actually taking steps towards that end? That's the point that you and a lot of people are missing.
Well, who said they will destroy Israel? Iran never said that, they said that Israel's regime could not last, which is true by the way (just look at the number of arabic people in Israel and how they are considered in the constitution). Even Hamas proposed to accept Israel some times ago.
What rock are you living under? How in the world have you missed all of the threats against Israel's very existence? Ever heard of a guy from Iran named Ahmadinejad? Neither Hamas nor Hezbollah accept Israel's existence.
Actually, the irony here is that the rock you're living under could be appropriately termed the "pro-Israel American media".
There's nothing particularly pro-Israeli about my point. If other countries and groups actively, openly, and repeatedly threaten Israel's existence, no one can reasonably expect Israel to just stand idly by. I wouldn't fault any nation for defending itself from perceived foreign aggression, whether it be Taiwan, North Korea, or (*gasp*) Israel. What kind of dream world are you people living in?
Listen to the Chomsky video. He has a nice differentiation between defending one's self and using force to defend one's self.
On June 08 2010 04:49 blomsterjohn wrote: yes, remember if someone calls you an idiot the correct respons is fist+face..
There's a bit of a difference between calling someone an idiot and telling them that they need to go back into the oven....
You could also dig up Israel officals refering to the palestinians as rats/dogs etc, so what. I don't get how you jump from being offended from words to collective punishment.
On June 08 2010 01:38 Native wrote: I believe that Iran will crush some day this pathetic "country".
Sheesh. Given the pervasiveness of this type of sentiment, how can anyone, in good faith, wonder why Israel does what it does? Yeah, sometimes they screw up (like with this ship boarding), bur you can't really blame them for trying.
Israel created the antagonism against them themselves. They only respond with violence and barbary, that's why everybody hates them in the arabic world. There is no bureaucratie in islamic country unlike in our country. It's more a patchwork of tribes and not one big state and one big religion. So, in these country, people need to look out for themselves, and can't rely on police or army... That's why the talion law is so important in arabic's country (an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth), your honor is the only way to defend yourself. Israeli sucked up big time since the beginning in 1948 were they used, intentionnaly or not, massacre to push the arabic country to war and declare their independance. See for exemple the Deir Yassin massacre: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_de_Deir_Yassin
No one's going to disagree that Israel brought much of the hatred upon itself. However, what rational person is going to stand idly by as people threaten to destroy him when the people making those threats are actually taking steps towards that end? That's the point that you and a lot of people are missing.
Well, who said they will destroy Israel? Iran never said that, they said that Israel's regime could not last, which is true by the way (just look at the number of arabic people in Israel and how they are considered in the constitution). Even Hamas proposed to accept Israel some times ago.
What rock are you living under? How in the world have you missed all of the threats against Israel's very existence? Ever heard of a guy from Iran named Ahmadinejad? Neither Hamas nor Hezbollah accept Israel's existence.
Actually, the irony here is that the rock you're living under could be appropriately termed the "pro-Israel American media".
There's nothing particularly pro-Israeli about my point. If other countries and groups actively, openly, and repeatedly threaten Israel's existence, no one can reasonably expect Israel to just stand idly by. I wouldn't fault any nation for defending itself from perceived foreign aggression, whether it be Taiwan, North Korea, or (*gasp*) Israel. What kind of dream world are you people living in?
Listen to the Chomsky video. He has a nice differentiation between defending one's self and using force to defend one's self.
His point is nice in an academic sense, but it's ludicrous in the larger, real world of global power politics. Rational state actors do all that they can to further their interests to the fullest extent of their power. The morality of whatever action is taken is, in and of itself, irrelevant. It's only relevant to the extent that the morality or immorality of a given action strengthens or weakens the state's power and its ability to further its interests.
On June 08 2010 01:38 Native wrote: I believe that Iran will crush some day this pathetic "country".
Sheesh. Given the pervasiveness of this type of sentiment, how can anyone, in good faith, wonder why Israel does what it does? Yeah, sometimes they screw up (like with this ship boarding), bur you can't really blame them for trying.
Israel created the antagonism against them themselves. They only respond with violence and barbary, that's why everybody hates them in the arabic world. There is no bureaucratie in islamic country unlike in our country. It's more a patchwork of tribes and not one big state and one big religion. So, in these country, people need to look out for themselves, and can't rely on police or army... That's why the talion law is so important in arabic's country (an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth), your honor is the only way to defend yourself. Israeli sucked up big time since the beginning in 1948 were they used, intentionnaly or not, massacre to push the arabic country to war and declare their independance. See for exemple the Deir Yassin massacre: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_de_Deir_Yassin
No one's going to disagree that Israel brought much of the hatred upon itself. However, what rational person is going to stand idly by as people threaten to destroy him when the people making those threats are actually taking steps towards that end? That's the point that you and a lot of people are missing.
Well, who said they will destroy Israel? Iran never said that, they said that Israel's regime could not last, which is true by the way (just look at the number of arabic people in Israel and how they are considered in the constitution). Even Hamas proposed to accept Israel some times ago.
What rock are you living under? How in the world have you missed all of the threats against Israel's very existence? Ever heard of a guy from Iran named Ahmadinejad? Neither Hamas nor Hezbollah accept Israel's existence.
Actually, the irony here is that the rock you're living under could be appropriately termed the "pro-Israel American media".
There's nothing particularly pro-Israeli about my point. If other countries and groups actively, openly, and repeatedly threaten Israel's existence, no one can reasonably expect Israel to just stand idly by. I wouldn't fault any nation for defending itself from perceived foreign aggression, whether it be Taiwan, North Korea, or (*gasp*) Israel. What kind of dream world are you people living in?
Listen to the Chomsky video. He has a nice differentiation between defending one's self and using force to defend one's self.
His point is nice in an academic sense, but it's ludicrous in the larger, real world of global power politics. Rational state actors do all that they can to further their interests to the fullest extent of their power. The morality of whatever action is taken is, in and of itself, irrelevant. It's only relevant to the extent that the morality or immorality of a given action strengthens or weakens the state's power and its ability to further its interests.
I prefer listening to a professor understanding both sides in a cause and giving ideas for solving problems than someone who takes the greed for wealth, earth and power to be a universal unstoppable force.
Should the weak and poor respect and do nothing against social injustice caused by the upper classes and political decisions because of the "universal" greed in some politicians? Should we all give up our hopes of a just world? If we did the society would look exactly like what satanists want.
Perhaps the question is irrelevant to you. You don't live in Gaza, so why bother? Well for one thing you have entered this discussion and seem to have something to say about the situation. Your'e also a human being, therefore you most probably have what is called empathy and then you probably don't want people to suffer. You've heard of another view on the gaza situation than what you use right now. Of course it might hurt to care about people suffering instead of saying "greed is unstoppable" and not give it another thought. But is that what should control our decisions on such topics?
You can call this philosofical nonsense but you still have to answer the question now that you've read it so please do.( by "have to" I mean to yourself, not here)
On June 08 2010 01 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 08 2010 01 end_of_the_skype_highlighting:21 ArKaDo wrote:
On June 08 2010 00:30 SirGlinG wrote:
On June 07 2010 23:25 Subversive wrote:
On June 07 2010 10:30 semantics wrote:
On June 07 2010 10:25 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
On June 07 2010 09:01 SnK-Arcbound wrote:
On June 07 2010 00:16 purgerinho wrote:
I see a lot of British land being given to the Jewish people, and the squatters being kicked out.
And then a lot of land captured when different arab countries surrounding Israel attacked (and got whupped).
This has to be the dumbest fucking post in this entire thread.
not if you read it as sarcasm about countries lines are arbitrary and change throughout the ages.
But then you have to read into posts like some ppl do in this thread =p
No semantics, you're just living up to your name. It's a terrible, retarded post because he's hoping to instigate another stupid argument with these inflammatory remarks.
This isn't a philosophical discussion about how countries develop just as it isn't about anti-semitism. No matter how much you and others try and confuse the issue.
I am not Barack Obama but I approve of this message (except for the word retarded). Really to all of you who haven't formed your own opinion on the mid east situation or this particular of ship to gaza I recommend to look at Subversives, Stealthblues posts.
Anyway to keep the thread going I'd like to discuss something. Is there any possible chance to have a sensible genuine conversation about borders and peoples rights with a zionist today? Every single word that can be seen as negative will be used against the outside world by Israel and every single time a statement dissapproves their political/military action they claim it to be antisemistic.
I'd like to mention another example of this: A swedish journalist wrote an article claiming that the israeli military inofficially kidnap Palestine citizens and steal their organs for Israeli medical use. This caused an outrage in Israel. Their people started to boycott Ikea and the foreign minister told the swedish gouvernment to close down the paper that had published the Article. The swedish foreign minister answered explained to him that this isn't legal in sweden and that isn't how a democracy is supposed to work. It's also illegal within your own law in Israel to do so.
Thing calmed down in time, but the article was debated in sweden because it used unknown sources. Even if the question had to be answered all we could trust was the journalists word.
About a month later it's revealed that Jews living in America have bought and sold stolen organs. It's horrible but still doesn't prove what the journalist was writing about and his sources still wanted to stay unknown because of the risks of going out in public.
Then an anthropologist happens to do a field work in Israel and Interview doctors. Multiple doctors reveal to her that the Israeli military have been kidnapping Palestine citiziens, killed and stolen their organs to help their own soldiers.
So here we are today again. Israel calls us antisemites and claims that everyobdy on the ships are terrorists and it's Israel against the world yada yada yada. They dissapprove of the UN's idea of a objective investigation on the Ship to gaza events.
Could they possibly maybe perhaps know that facts of their own actions would reveal lies of their gouvernment? Are they aware of that their actions are unjust against international law and want to hide it from us? Has this happened before and will it happen again?
Dear Israel. It's not u against the world. It's you believing that it is.
If Antisemism by your definition is "standing up for international just law and human rights, peoples right to know the truth of their gouvernments actions and not lifting up a religious idea as something greater than every other human beings natural right to live" If that's the case which it mostly seems to be according to Israeli officials then yes I am an antisemit.
If antisemitism is "Antisemitism (also spelled anti-semitism or anti-Semitism) is prejudice against or hostility towards Jews, often rooted in hatred of their ethnic background, culture, and/or religion. In its extreme form, it "attributes to the Jews an exceptional position among all other civilizations, defames them as an inferior group and denies their being part of the nation[s]" in which they reside.[1] A person who practices antisemitism is called an "antisemite."
Then I'm not a antisemite.
The situation is more complex. First, you must remember that israel is the only country in the world with no delimitation of the frontier in the constitution. Every country give the limit of their territory in their constitution. (Well to be precise, israel have no constitution for some reasons, but there is some laws, like the basic law, that everybody consider as some sort of constitution). In every war, except for the second Lebanon war (2006), Israel always had territory ambition (during the 6 days war, don't forget they started the war and took a part of Egypte, giving it back after due to international pressure): Israel is in fact (or was) a project of expansion. That's for the first part about the problem with israel and their borders.
For the second part, Israel is a country with identity problem. All their history is based on blood and lies. There are a lot of books talking about the true history of Israel (look at the new israeli historian). For exemple The Holocaust Industry for Finkelstein (who is a us citizen, not israeli) and Schlomo Sand The Invention of the Jewish People. That's why it's so hard to talk with Israelis, they feel insecurity and only react with violence.
There are like 10000000 reasons to trust the activist and not the IDF. Just look at the history of this army: only massacre, mystakes and lies.
The Identity problem is a big issue. And sadly the ship to gaza situation will probably only make the Israeli unite in a we against the world. Unity in a escapistic quest from the truth and a peaceful solution isn't a step in the right direction.
Speaking of unity and of the book The Invention of the Jewish People I found this interesting quotation in the wiki page for it:
Tom Segev, says Sand's book "is intended to promote the idea that Israel should be a 'state of all its citizens' – Jews, Arabs and others – in contrast to its declared identity as a 'Jewish and democratic' state."
So Israel is declared to be for Jewish people only? Then what chance do Arab people living in Israel have for living an equal life? I thought there are Arab members of Israel's parliament. Are they just for show and have no real power?
I'm not sure what is the it in the quote you mentioned. But for example according to the Israeli Declaration of Independence all people, regardless of religion, sex and race, should be equal. Of course this isn't the case in reality as Arabs do face a lot of discriminaton. But my point is that Israel necessarily isn't fundamentally a Jewish-only state. Or wasn't supposed to be.
(The declaration is not a law, though, I have to point out. Merely a guiding principle.)
On June 08 2010 06:02 EtherealDeath wrote: ^Both "its" are referring to the state of Israel.
I read your post a bit hastily, or selectively, as I only now noticed you asked a question in the end. I don't think the Arab members are just for show or powerless (as individuals), but simply not numerous enough.
Israel sieht sich seit der blutigen Schiffserstürmung zwar nicht mit internationalen Sanktionen konfrontiert, wohl aber mit einzelnen Boykotten. So haben seit Montag vergangener Woche zahlreiche internationale Musiker ihre Konzerte bzw. Festivalauftritte abgesagt, darunter die US-Band Pixies, Star-Gitarrist Carlos Santana, Gil Scott-Heron sowie die britischen Bands Gorillaz und Klaxons. Bereits im Mai stornierte Elvis Costello aus Protest zwei Tel-Aviv-Konzerte. Metallica, Placebo und RnB-Star Rihanna, die demnächst in Israel auftreten sollen, halten hingegen an ihren Plänen fest.
On June 08 2010 01:38 Native wrote: I believe that Iran will crush some day this pathetic "country".
Sheesh. Given the pervasiveness of this type of sentiment, how can anyone, in good faith, wonder why Israel does what it does? Yeah, sometimes they screw up (like with this ship boarding), bur you can't really blame them for trying.
Israel created the antagonism against them themselves. They only respond with violence and barbary, that's why everybody hates them in the arabic world. There is no bureaucratie in islamic country unlike in our country. It's more a patchwork of tribes and not one big state and one big religion. So, in these country, people need to look out for themselves, and can't rely on police or army... That's why the talion law is so important in arabic's country (an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth), your honor is the only way to defend yourself. Israeli sucked up big time since the beginning in 1948 were they used, intentionnaly or not, massacre to push the arabic country to war and declare their independance. See for exemple the Deir Yassin massacre: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_de_Deir_Yassin
No one's going to disagree that Israel brought much of the hatred upon itself. However, what rational person is going to stand idly by as people threaten to destroy him when the people making those threats are actually taking steps towards that end? That's the point that you and a lot of people are missing.
Well, who said they will destroy Israel? Iran never said that, they said that Israel's regime could not last, which is true by the way (just look at the number of arabic people in Israel and how they are considered in the constitution). Even Hamas proposed to accept Israel some times ago.
What rock are you living under? How in the world have you missed all of the threats against Israel's very existence? Ever heard of a guy from Iran named Ahmadinejad? Neither Hamas nor Hezbollah accept Israel's existence.
Actually, the irony here is that the rock you're living under could be appropriately termed the "pro-Israel American media".
There's nothing particularly pro-Israeli about my point. If other countries and groups actively, openly, and repeatedly threaten Israel's existence, no one can reasonably expect Israel to just stand idly by. I wouldn't fault any nation for defending itself from perceived foreign aggression, whether it be Taiwan, North Korea, or (*gasp*) Israel. What kind of dream world are you people living in?
Listen to the Chomsky video. He has a nice differentiation between defending one's self and using force to defend one's self.
His point is nice in an academic sense, but it's ludicrous in the larger, real world of global power politics. Rational state actors do all that they can to further their interests to the fullest extent of their power. The morality of whatever action is taken is, in and of itself, irrelevant. It's only relevant to the extent that the morality or immorality of a given action strengthens or weakens the state's power and its ability to further its interests.
No, it isn't 'nice' in an academic sense. Its about what the world stage is willing to accept. Your statement here:
If other countries and groups actively, openly, and repeatedly threaten Israel's existence, no one can reasonably expect Israel to just stand idly by.
attempts to morally justify Israel's 'defenses' as a matter of existence. Chomsky pretty much zeros in on that claim and demolishes it.
Either there's a moral justification or there isn't. There's obviously a utilitarian justification, but no one claims that building a massive wall and treating humans like cattle wouldn't make things easier.
Sheesh. Given the pervasiveness of this type of sentiment, how can anyone, in good faith, wonder why Israel does what it does? Yeah, sometimes they screw up (like with this ship boarding), bur you can't really blame them for trying.
Israel created the antagonism against them themselves. They only respond with violence and barbary, that's why everybody hates them in the arabic world. There is no bureaucratie in islamic country unlike in our country. It's more a patchwork of tribes and not one big state and one big religion. So, in these country, people need to look out for themselves, and can't rely on police or army... That's why the talion law is so important in arabic's country (an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth), your honor is the only way to defend yourself. Israeli sucked up big time since the beginning in 1948 were they used, intentionnaly or not, massacre to push the arabic country to war and declare their independance. See for exemple the Deir Yassin massacre: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_de_Deir_Yassin
No one's going to disagree that Israel brought much of the hatred upon itself. However, what rational person is going to stand idly by as people threaten to destroy him when the people making those threats are actually taking steps towards that end? That's the point that you and a lot of people are missing.
Well, who said they will destroy Israel? Iran never said that, they said that Israel's regime could not last, which is true by the way (just look at the number of arabic people in Israel and how they are considered in the constitution). Even Hamas proposed to accept Israel some times ago.
What rock are you living under? How in the world have you missed all of the threats against Israel's very existence? Ever heard of a guy from Iran named Ahmadinejad? Neither Hamas nor Hezbollah accept Israel's existence.
Actually, the irony here is that the rock you're living under could be appropriately termed the "pro-Israel American media".
There's nothing particularly pro-Israeli about my point. If other countries and groups actively, openly, and repeatedly threaten Israel's existence, no one can reasonably expect Israel to just stand idly by. I wouldn't fault any nation for defending itself from perceived foreign aggression, whether it be Taiwan, North Korea, or (*gasp*) Israel. What kind of dream world are you people living in?
Listen to the Chomsky video. He has a nice differentiation between defending one's self and using force to defend one's self.
His point is nice in an academic sense, but it's ludicrous in the larger, real world of global power politics. Rational state actors do all that they can to further their interests to the fullest extent of their power. The morality of whatever action is taken is, in and of itself, irrelevant. It's only relevant to the extent that the morality or immorality of a given action strengthens or weakens the state's power and its ability to further its interests.
I prefer listening to a professor understanding both sides in a cause and giving ideas for solving problems than someone who takes the greed for wealth, earth and power to be a universal unstoppable force.
Should the weak and poor respect and do nothing against social injustice caused by the upper classes and political decisions because of the "universal" greed in some politicians? Should we all give up our hopes of a just world? If we did the society would look exactly like what satanists want.
Perhaps the question is irrelevant to you. You don't live in Gaza, so why bother? Well for one thing you have entered this discussion and seem to have something to say about the situation. Your'e also a human being, therefore you most probably have what is called empathy and then you probably don't want people to suffer. You've heard of another view on the gaza situation than what you use right now. Of course it might hurt to care about people suffering instead of saying "greed is unstoppable" and not give it another thought. But is that what should control our decisions on such topics?
You can call this philosofical nonsense but you still have to answer the question now that you've read it so please do.( by "have to" I mean to yourself, not here)
There's nothing balanced about what Chomsky says in the video. His solution to the Middle East is for the US to stop supporting Israel and for Israel to unilaterally withdraw from the West Bank and other settlements. How exactly is that going to placate the millions of pissed off Palestinians and other Arabs that won't tolerate Israel's very existence? He didn't even address the Palestinian side of the equation.
Also, don't mistake my argument for a lack of empathy for the Palestinians. I guarantee you that I've been more impacted by Israel's establishment and expansion that most anyone else posting in this thread. My family is Lebanese and was displaced by Israel. I understand better than most what Israel has done since its establishment and how poorly it treats non-Jewish residents. In fact, this is why I don't think that a two-state solution is possible.
Nevertheless, I can still see and understand Israel's point of view. They've been under threat since the founding of Israel. They've been attacked by other countries on three different occasions. Beyond that, Jews in general have been victimized for thousands of years. From Egypt, to Rome, to Spain, to other European countries, the Jews have had a history of raw deals. So when other states and groups actively preach and advocate the destruction of Israel, I don't really blame them for being hyper-aggressive in their defense. Should they have boarded that Gazan flotilla? Absolutely. Did they screw up when doing it? Definitely.
EPT![[image loading]](http://elespiritudelchemin.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/palestina-israel.jpg)
