Today between my final exam studies I was watching TV nd the rescued people from Mavi Marmara was on TV. Something interesting they mentioned : Israels zodiac boats and and helicopters passed by the closer ships and headed directly to Turkish flagged one even tough there were 1-2 sea miles behind. From now on it is clear that this act was not just an accident but was semi-planned goverment supported action directly against Turkey. They also mentioned the commandos atacked at like 3-4 am in the morning and before they land they jammed every communication on the boats also tried to prevent TV connection atacking to the ones who were recording.
I would hold off on believing that just from some NTV coverage. Wait for confirmation from somewhere else.
I belaive your confirmation must come from directly IDF for you to belaive. The person who was talking was not an NTV reporter he was rescued from the ships.
Moreover, don't you think there is something terribly wrong with his conclusion, "...it is clear that..."
Of course Israel must have had some kind of intel about who were on that ship. And seen from the results, it certainly was a special case, as there seems to have not been similar attacks against the soldiers on the other ships.
If you can explain what you meant with this I can give you a proper response. do u mean that Turks atacked the commandos therefore they deserved to die?
No, that is not what I mean.
I mean that Israel most likely knew that the Turkish ship held the more extreme "activists" and that is why they wanted to board it first and the rest second. And that this is a much better explanation than the one you gave.
Ah okay then there's no problem for me with your explanation since mine was also based on my view and it was clear for me and yours is clear for you since both of our assumptions rely on other peoples sayngs and sources from 3rd parties like IDF or in my case the rescued people. I just tought you meant engaging the Turkish ship because they were more dangerous etc made the action legal in your mind.
On June 02 2010 07:29 mmp wrote: ^ The source I mentioned is Adam Shapiro, co-founder of the International Solidarity Movement and a board member of the Free Gaza Movement being interviewed by Democracy Now! I haven't watched the video, but he says it shows the commandos firing as they descended:
ADAM SHAPIRO: The boats were making their way, the six ships, in international waters, far in international waters. They were still at least fifty miles offshore, and so well off the coasts of Israel and Gaza. And as they were making their way, Israeli warships surrounded the flotilla, all the ships, and the first ship to come under attack by helicopter, with commandos coming down from helicopter, as we’ve seen on the media, on the footage, was this big Turkish ship, the Mavi Marmara. And soldiers, as they came down, started opening fire immediately, as was reported by the Al Jazeera correspondence on live stream that we have. And the soldiers injured and eventually killed at least one person, before other passengers decided at that point to try to act in self-defense and to try to stop soldiers, more soldiers, from coming onto the ship.
What needs to be acknowledged here is that Israel acted violently by attacking our ships, to begin with. And under international law, under the law of the seas, our people, as the people on that ship coming under such an attack, an illegal attack on the high seas, do have a right to defend themselves. Now, we don’t necessarily encourage people to take up any kind of weapons against the Israelis, and certainly our activists train in nonviolence, but given the kind of scenario that was unfolding on that boat, I certainly do understand the desire of people to try to protect themselves and try to protect others who were already injured.
The other ships, including the one that my wife Huwaida was on, also came under attack. We don’t know, because we didn’t have satellite feeds on those ships, the kinds of attacks that they suffered. And we still don’t know, because all of the detainees are being kept from any kind of communication with media, with their families, even up until now with their lawyers and with their embassies.
In guessing there are no new videos in there. (I watched it for a bit and didn't see anything new.) In the ones that I've seen, I don't see the first Israeli soldiers shooting at all. But they are certainly being attacked right away. In fact, in the one shot by the "activists", you can see one soldier being stabbed but he's still not shooting.
Today between my final exam studies I was watching TV nd the rescued people from Mavi Marmara was on TV. Something interesting they mentioned : Israels zodiac boats and and helicopters passed by the closer ships and headed directly to Turkish flagged one even tough there were 1-2 sea miles behind. From now on it is clear that this act was not just an accident but was semi-planned goverment supported action directly against Turkey. They also mentioned the commandos atacked at like 3-4 am in the morning and before they land they jammed every communication on the boats also tried to prevent TV connection atacking to the ones who were recording.
I would hold off on believing that just from some NTV coverage. Wait for confirmation from somewhere else.
I belaive your confirmation must come from directly IDF for you to belaive. The person who was talking was not an NTV reporter he was rescued from the ships.
Moreover, don't you think there is something terribly wrong with his conclusion, "...it is clear that..."
Of course Israel must have had some kind of intel about who were on that ship. And seen from the results, it certainly was a special case, as there seems to have not been similar attacks against the soldiers on the other ships.
If you can explain what you meant with this I can give you a proper response. do u mean that Turks atacked the commandos therefore they deserved to die?
No, that is not what I mean.
I mean that Israel most likely knew that the Turkish ship held the more extreme "activists" and that is why they wanted to board it first and the rest second. And that this is a much better explanation than the one you gave.
Ah okay then there's no problem for me with your explanation since mine was also based on my view and it was clear for me and yours is clear for you since both of our assumptions rely on other peoples sayngs and sources from 3rd parties like IDF or in my case the rescued people. I just tought you meant engaging the Turkish ship because they were more dangerous etc made the action legal in your mind.
Thanks for the explanation.
I am not at all convinced boarding the ships was illegal though.
On June 02 2010 07:29 mmp wrote: ^ The source I mentioned is Adam Shapiro, co-founder of the International Solidarity Movement and a board member of the Free Gaza Movement being interviewed by Democracy Now! I haven't watched the video, but he says it shows the commandos firing as they descended:
ADAM SHAPIRO: The boats were making their way, the six ships, in international waters, far in international waters. They were still at least fifty miles offshore, and so well off the coasts of Israel and Gaza. And as they were making their way, Israeli warships surrounded the flotilla, all the ships, and the first ship to come under attack by helicopter, with commandos coming down from helicopter, as we’ve seen on the media, on the footage, was this big Turkish ship, the Mavi Marmara. And soldiers, as they came down, started opening fire immediately, as was reported by the Al Jazeera correspondence on live stream that we have. And the soldiers injured and eventually killed at least one person, before other passengers decided at that point to try to act in self-defense and to try to stop soldiers, more soldiers, from coming onto the ship.
What needs to be acknowledged here is that Israel acted violently by attacking our ships, to begin with. And under international law, under the law of the seas, our people, as the people on that ship coming under such an attack, an illegal attack on the high seas, do have a right to defend themselves. Now, we don’t necessarily encourage people to take up any kind of weapons against the Israelis, and certainly our activists train in nonviolence, but given the kind of scenario that was unfolding on that boat, I certainly do understand the desire of people to try to protect themselves and try to protect others who were already injured.
The other ships, including the one that my wife Huwaida was on, also came under attack. We don’t know, because we didn’t have satellite feeds on those ships, the kinds of attacks that they suffered. And we still don’t know, because all of the detainees are being kept from any kind of communication with media, with their families, even up until now with their lawyers and with their embassies.
In guessing there are no new videos in there. (I watched it for a bit and didn't see anything new.) In the ones that I've seen, I don't see the first Israeli soldiers shooting at all. But they are certainly being attacked right away. In fact, in the one shot by the "activists", you can see one soldier being stabbed but he's still not shooting.
You do realize that if he shot he could've been killed by the mob right?
And you do realize that if the mob wanted to kill the soldiers they could've even with those kitchen knives and metal bars.
Edit: Have you seen the russian commando take back a ship from fully armed somali pirates? They killed none of them. Of course these aren't russian commandos (which are really bad ass) but they aren't untrained soldiers, they still are elite troops.
So what the israeli did is just stupid, they could have done it in a good way that no one get hurt. So that makes me think that maybe it's the israelis that hoped for the activists to attack the troops and portrait them as aggressive barbarians.
On June 02 2010 07:29 mmp wrote: ^ The source I mentioned is Adam Shapiro, co-founder of the International Solidarity Movement and a board member of the Free Gaza Movement being interviewed by Democracy Now! I haven't watched the video, but he says it shows the commandos firing as they descended:
ADAM SHAPIRO: The boats were making their way, the six ships, in international waters, far in international waters. They were still at least fifty miles offshore, and so well off the coasts of Israel and Gaza. And as they were making their way, Israeli warships surrounded the flotilla, all the ships, and the first ship to come under attack by helicopter, with commandos coming down from helicopter, as we’ve seen on the media, on the footage, was this big Turkish ship, the Mavi Marmara. And soldiers, as they came down, started opening fire immediately, as was reported by the Al Jazeera correspondence on live stream that we have. And the soldiers injured and eventually killed at least one person, before other passengers decided at that point to try to act in self-defense and to try to stop soldiers, more soldiers, from coming onto the ship.
What needs to be acknowledged here is that Israel acted violently by attacking our ships, to begin with. And under international law, under the law of the seas, our people, as the people on that ship coming under such an attack, an illegal attack on the high seas, do have a right to defend themselves. Now, we don’t necessarily encourage people to take up any kind of weapons against the Israelis, and certainly our activists train in nonviolence, but given the kind of scenario that was unfolding on that boat, I certainly do understand the desire of people to try to protect themselves and try to protect others who were already injured.
The other ships, including the one that my wife Huwaida was on, also came under attack. We don’t know, because we didn’t have satellite feeds on those ships, the kinds of attacks that they suffered. And we still don’t know, because all of the detainees are being kept from any kind of communication with media, with their families, even up until now with their lawyers and with their embassies.
In guessing there are no new videos in there. (I watched it for a bit and didn't see anything new.) In the ones that I've seen, I don't see the first Israeli soldiers shooting at all. But they are certainly being attacked right away. In fact, in the one shot by the "activists", you can see one soldier being stabbed but he's still not shooting.
You do realize that if he shot he could've been killed by the mob right?
And you do realize that if the mob wanted to kill the soldiers they could've even with those kitchen knives and metal bars.
You don't make any sense. I'm trying to counter the claim that the first soldiers fired their weapons by pointing out that they didn't. Moreover, yes, I do realize that they could've killed the soldiers with clubs and knives. And guess what. From the looks of it, that is what they tried to do. Or do you think it's air they were swinging at?
Edit:
This could be the reason, why Israel decided to engage the flotilla so far away. (The picture text.)
Look, those soldiers aren't made of iron. If they wanted to kill them they would have done it, and no it does not look like they wanted to kill them, they wanted to disarm them which seems normal.
Have you seen big fights with knifes, clubs and etc, but only people getting minor injuries from them? Because that happens all the times, i'll let you figure out why.
On June 02 2010 07:56 Pika Chu wrote: Look, those soldiers aren't made of iron. If they wanted to kill them they would have done it, and no it does not look like they wanted to kill them, they wanted to disarm them which seems normal.
Have you seen big fights with knifes, clubs and etc, but only people getting minor injuries from them? Because that happens all the times, i'll let you figure out why.
Of course the protective gear the soldiers were wearing didn't prevent the casualties, it was the peace activists holding back. After all, they were only trying to disarm them, lol.
(Yes, I know the music and some of the comments are not needed.)
From your edit, are you trying to use the fact that the humanitarian aid would've got in the hands of hamas which makes the blockade legal? Because if so, i'll use the fact that otherwise humanitarian aid would have felt in hands of the israeli so that's as a good reason for not letting it on israels hand.
Also, the news you pasted only sustains the idea on which israel's blockade is illegal and immoral, with gaza right now being nothing but a prison.
On June 02 2010 08:04 Pika Chu wrote: From your edit, are you trying to use the fact that the humanitarian aid would've got in the hands of hamas which makes the blockade legal? Because if so, i'll use the fact that otherwise humanitarian aid would have felt in hands of the israeli so that's as a good reason for not letting it on israels hand.
Also, the news you pasted only sustains the idea on which israel's blockade is illegal and immoral, with gaza right now being nothing but a prison.
You mean falling in the hands of Israel only to be sent to Gaza by land would've been as bad? Well, I suppose you're right, either way it would've ended up in Gaza. But no, that is not what I meant. What I meant is that there were Hamas speedboats around, and had the ships been boarded close to shore, Hamas fighters might have joined the battle. That could've been a real catastrophe.
I don't know how plausible an explanation that is.
LOL, only judging from the comments you can clearly see that this is made by israeli to sustain their point of view. Where are the footage of soldiers shooting and kill civilians?
Beside, this only proves the point that the civilians attacked the soldiers but did not intent to kill them. You really think the helmet or whatever protective gear they had helped them escape with live? No, hitting with a metal rod in the head with full force even if you're guarded by a helmet can make you go unconscious. And there were tens of people with metal rods and knives around, you really believe they would survive if they hit with everything with the purpose of killing the soldier?
And about the stab, lol i think that if the video didn't show comments that the guy was getting stab you wouldn't even know it. And if he did stab the solider he obviously didn't do to kill him (just look at the damn vid, he didn't plant the whole knife and not in a vital zone). Just as that what they claim to be a firebomb, it cannot be judged if it really is a firebomb from these videos.
What were the israeli doing taking footage of what is happening from so many angles?
Edit: Yes, you are right, that may be a reasonable explanation of why Israeli decided to attack them in international waters, but however this is still wrong no matter how you take it.
On June 02 2010 08:16 Pika Chu wrote: And about the stab, lol i think that if the video didn't show comments that the guy was getting stab you wouldn't even know it. And if he did stab the solider he obviously didn't do to kill him
It was a freedom stab. The video was clearly modified to remove the rainbows that show its peaceful nature.
On June 02 2010 08:16 Pika Chu wrote: LOL, only judging from the comments you can clearly see that this is made by israeli to sustain their point of view. Where are the footage of soldiers shooting and kill civilians?
Beside, this only proves the point that the civilians attacked the soldiers but did not intent to kill them. You really think the helmet or whatever protective gear they had helped them escape with live? No, hitting with a metal rod in the head with full force even if you're guarded by a helmet can make you go unconscious. And there were tens of people with metal rods and knives around, you really believe they would survive if they hit with everything with the purpose of killing the soldier?
And about the stab, lol i think that if the video didn't show comments that the guy was getting stab you wouldn't even know it. And if he did stab the solider he obviously didn't do to kill him (just look at the damn vid, he didn't plant the whole knife and not in a vital zone). Just as that what they claim to be a firebomb, it cannot be judged if it really is a firebomb from these videos.
What were the israeli doing taking footage of what is happening from so many angles?
Edit: Yes, you are right, that may be a reasonable explanation of why Israeli decided to attack them in international waters, but however this is still wrong no matter how you take it.
Actually the video with colours was shot by the activists. Militaries tend to film these things, for example, so that they can see what went wrong and so that they have proof that they conducted their operation legally. I would expect a lot of the video material to be classified. I believe no nation releases it very often. Whatever the case, I don't know. All I know is that the videos clearly show the activists starting the violence onboard.
Yes, I do think a helmet can very well save your life if your head is being targeted. This is why they advice you to wear a helmet while biking. According to IDF, at least one soldier was knocked unconscious and two ended up in critical condition. Two also escaped from the ship to water. Maybe the activists simply didn't have the time to finish the job, as more soldiers kept coming down.
Yes, that is right. Without the comment and slowdown/rewind, I indeed wouldn't have noticed it. The video is quite messy. Just because he didn't shove it in his eye right away, doesn't mean he was just playing. One of the soldiers was stabbed in stomach, for example. Sounds like an attempted murder to me.
You're right about the firebomb though, that much I'll give you.
What do you mean it is wrong no matter what? Did you know that it seems if you have a legal blockade, you can legally board a civilian ship on international waters, if there is a good reason to believe they will try to break the blockade? I bet you didn't. I bet you also didn't know that this still doesn't mean that Israel acted legally. Law is a complex matter and laymen should remain quiet about it.
I agree with scion completely, Israel is to blame completely here, they were coming in with humanitarian aid, I wouldnt respect Israel's wish either were I trying to bring medicine/food to the people suffering because of such an absurd political blockade. I feel like Israel is politically going through what America went through 8 years ago during the Bush years, a politically reactionary government with control of one of the most powerful armies on the planet trying to muscle their way around and it being a complete disaster. I hope the US has the good sense to let them get what's coming to them.
What do you mean it is wrong no matter what? Did you know that it seems if you have a legal blockade, you can legally board a civilian ship on international waters, if there is a good reason to believe they will try to break the blockade? I bet you didn't. I bet you also didn't know that this still doesn't mean that Israel acted legally. Law is a complex matter and laymen should remain quiet about it.
The blockade is illegal. That is what matters, and that makes boarding illegal right now as well given your info.
What do you mean it is wrong no matter what? Did you know that it seems if you have a legal blockade, you can legally board a civilian ship on international waters, if there is a good reason to believe they will try to break the blockade? I bet you didn't. I bet you also didn't know that this still doesn't mean that Israel acted legally. Law is a complex matter and laymen should remain quiet about it.
The blockade is illegal. That is what matters, and that makes boarding illegal right now as well given your info.
But actually, even that isn't entirely clear. I'll quote myself:
"Law is a complex matter and laymen should remain quiet about it."
Look, i appreciate people that are skeptical about stuff but you're taking this to the limit of absurdity. The UN says it's illegal, and that's enough for me, if ONU can't interpret the laws right then laws cannot be interpreted.
Illegal blockade = illegal boarding of ships = illegal stuff done by Israel. And this is very clear, before UN came out and declared what they did we could've revolved around it being legal or not but right now it's clear.
On May 31 2010 19:49 BG1 wrote: If those "doctors, writers and politicians" remained civil there would be no reason for anyone to get shot... The Israelis didn't just whip out their guns and decide to shoot people for fun.
Yes they did, come on don't be so stupid.This was a plain message to the world, that they can kill whoever they want, under any excuse and they will not get processed for that.
And to people who say that people attacked commandos, be real, who normal would try to take weapons from armed commandos?Unless these guys were infiltrators who made this all possible by giving Israelis a reason for shooting. It is an old tactic, prolly as old as war itself.That is how WW2 started.
Israel concerned next flotilla will be accompanied by Turkish Navy.
Dozens of passengers who were aboard the Mavi Marmara Turkish passenger ship are suspected of having connections with Global Jihad-affiliated terrorist organizations, defense officials said Tuesday, amid growing concerns that Turkey will dispatch Navy warships to accompany a future flotilla to the Gaza Strip.
According to the defense officials, the IDF identified a group of about 100 passengers on the ship that could have terrorist connections with Global Jihad affiliated groups.
During its searches of the Mavi Marmara on Tuesday, the military also discovered a cache of bulletproof vests, night-vision goggles as well as gas masks. On Monday morning, nine international activists were killed during the Navy’s takeover of the Mavi Marmara which was trying to break the Israel-imposed sea blockade on the Gaza Strip.
The group of over 50 passengers with possible terror connections have refused to identify themselves and were not carrying passports. Many of them were however carrying envelopes packed with thousands of dollars in cash.
The military is working to identify the passengers and is looking into the possibility that some of them have ties with Global Jihad-affiliated terror organizations and that some were involved in past global terror attacks. Some of them are apparently known Islamic extremists.
“This is the group that was behind the violent lynch against the naval commandos,” a defense official said. “They came on board the ship prepared and after they had trained for the expected Navy takeover.”
IDF fears Turkey might send Navy ships with next flotilla
On Tuesday, Turkish Prime Minister threatened Israel not to test Turkey’s patience.
"Turkey's hostility is as strong as its friendship is valuable,” he said, adding “"Israel in no way can legitimize this murder, it cannot wash its hand of this blood."
This comment, officials said, could signify a change in Turkish military action in the event that another flotilla is dispatched to the Gaza Strip. One official said that the possibility that Turkey would send navy ships was slim – due to the country’s membership in NATO – but that the possibility was of great concern.
“This is a definite possibility that we need to prepare for,” a senior defense official said on Tuesday.
Navy sources said that the coming ships would be intercepted the same way the flotilla was stopped on Monday morning although it had yet to be decided if the operation would be carried out by Sayetet 13, the Navy’s commando unit.
“We are tracking the ships and are under orders to stop them,” a top Navy officer said.
According to the sources, the Navy, in a future operation will use more force to prevent ships from reaching the Gaza Strip. "We boarded the ship and were attacked as if it was a war," one officer said. "That will mean that we will have to come prepared in the future as if it was a war."
On June 02 2010 03:31 ComusLoM wrote: Have you noticed how those knives are either kitchen utensils or decorative?
EDIT: Considering NATO treaty of which Turkey is a signatory, this is an unauthorized attack on a turkish private vessel. As such it should be treated as an attack on all NATO countries. If there was justice in the world we the civilized world should be quick to bring harsh judgement on Israel with military action and dissolve the worst thing to ever happen to the world.
EDIT2: It's also worth noting that if NATO doesn't respond unilaterally with military force or strong economic embargo that the whole alliance is worth less than the paper the treaties are written on.
That is a laughable and utterly ridiculous statement. Whether you condone the incident or not (I dont), you cant seriously think we should wipe Israel of the face of the planet for it. Particularily when they are the only ally we have in the whole region.
EPT
