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On April 06 2010 11:16 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2010 11:07 Rothbardian wrote:On April 06 2010 11:01 Jibba wrote:On April 06 2010 10:58 Rothbardian wrote:On April 06 2010 10:28 Sean.G wrote:On April 06 2010 10:16 BDF92 wrote:On April 06 2010 10:03 Sean.G wrote:On April 06 2010 05:18 Hawk wrote:On April 06 2010 05:15 mdb wrote:On April 06 2010 05:12 Hawk wrote:
[quote]
[quote]
[quote]
did any of you watch???
when the van rolled up, ground troops were already closing in to secure the area. unmarked van, suicide bombers.....
Well, that must have been the fastest ever suicide truck preparation. so there's no conceivable way that the truck could have been rigged in advance, and when troops come near, it detonates? Come on..... I think that the war is fucking retarded, as do most of the people here, but you have to be incredibly fucking stubborn to find anything wrong in the way the soldiers acted here. Take it in a vacuum—it's all by the books. WOW. I cannot believe how many people are defending this. This is ridiculous.. finding all sorts of stupid excuses to defend this makes me sick. Of course almost all of you are American, probably too proud to admit a mistake committed by fellow countrymen. "so there's no conceivable way that the truck could have been rigged in advance, and when troops come near, it detonates? Come on....." Seriously? Is that your argument? It was obvious that these people were no threat to anyone. There were people trying to hide from the firing helicopter and saving wounded people into a truck. Yes, there is probably a 1:10000000 chance that this truck can be harmful. But there will always be a chance equal to that or greater that ANYONE who looks like a civilian can be harmful. And the whole point is that THAT IS NOT ENOUGH TO MAKE THE DECISION TO KILL PEOPLE WHO MOST LIKELY ARE INNOCENT. And stop the bullshit about this being a situation where there is a lot of stress etc to defend their behaviour. Their decisions are really really poor and based on what they obviously wanted to believe, just assuming everyone is holding a gun without being certain and rapidly begging for permission to fire without having any more proof at all or them being under any threat at all. All the "what if he had an RPG that has a 1:1000 chance of killing them" bullshit shouldn't be enough to grant them permission to fire upon someone who they're not even certain has this weapon. Not to mention that there is an obvious lack of professionalism in the way they communicate and base their decisions for opening fire. The decision on whether they get to live or die is so easy to them, its really disgusting how you can defend that. Some of you say they were just following orders, however, the reason they received the order to engage was because they told the people who issued the orders that they saw multiple hostiles with AKs and RPGs and whatnot. The way they made this sound 100% certain (they never ever questioned whether they were civilians or not, as if they were either stupid or just didn't care) obviously was the reason they were granted permission to open fire so quickly.. Honestly, take your European pretentious attitude elsewhere, it's not that we're "too proud" to admit that someone from our country made a mistake. Just because they're American doesn't mean we have some stubborn drive to protect the U.S.'s dignity at any cost. We're playing devil's advocate so that it doesn't turn into a 100% hate America discussion. It is not an "attitude", I am using examples to show you that arguments some of you have used make no sense and are completely ridiculous. That is why I believe many of you might be too proud to admit that the decisions made by the people in this video were wrong. You have to admit though, that everyone is obviously not being 100% objective when obviously this is pretty much a thread where most Americans defend the soldiers and the rest are against them... (of course there are exceptions). And I also have to add that even though I admit my statement is a little too generalized, it would be naïve to believe that everyone who has posted in this thread has watched the video and given a completely objective unbiased opinion regardless of the nationality of the soldiers. That is very hard to do, and your opinion most likely automatically leans towards the defense of your own countrymen in the subconscious mind.. On the other hand, to stay on topic, what you are referring to was only the first paragraph in my post. I follow up by using valid arguments which should be pretty on-topic, so lets stick to that instead of starting a completely different discussion. What's funny is that Americans don't even realize that America was borne from what would be defined today as 'Terrorists'. What the fuck do you think the Sons of Liberty were? Let's get the fuck out of the Middle East and the World! The right of self-determination should never be infringed. Why don't you move to Haiti? The Haitian government is far too weak to actually do anything or even infringe on its citizens' rights. The country is basically run by NGOs. You couldn't be more wrong. If I have to hear another 'Why don't you move' if you don't like X, I'll be more annoyed at that falsifiable statement moreso than I am. That's part of the argument for a fully private school system, is it not? If the schools in your area aren't performing adequately, you are free to move to another city/state. Show nested quote +Besides, I am moving to New Hampshire to enact freedom and liberty, so why would I move to a centralized totalitarian State that's worse than the US? The Haitian government doesn't do anything.
No. The argument for a Free-Market in schooling is numerous.
• Compulsory Education and State run Schooling infringes upon liberty and freedom and conditions and indoctrinates the students with whatever curriculum the State decides with no other choice
• Open market entry allows for expanded areas of education purely for the needs of differing individuals
• Open Market entry leads to higher standards
• Freedom of association and choice will necessarily better reflect local values
• Free-Market in Education would allow you to end Property Tax forever.
• Taxation is theft
If you feel the schools in your area are inadequate the argument for a Free-Market is that you yourself, or others in your area may freely compete and open your own Schools, or if you so choose homeschool. I am a big advocate of home-schooling. If you don't like something the solution is not to move, but to compete with them. Entreprenuers and free-enterprise is the bedrock of liberty. Why do you think in all totalitarian States the first thing they Nationalize is education? There is a great Kitty Werthmann clip on Youtube where she recounts her experiences in Austria under Fascism and State-Schooling.
I would also recommend reading some John Taylor Gatto.
As for Haiti, they are not in a case of political anarchy:
http://mises.org/daily/4064
From the WSJ:
"They risked their lives diving into crevices with empty rice sacks, emerging with sacks bulging with footwear and other goods.
They also risked the wrath of police, who every now and then scattered them with long batons."
http://mises.org/daily/4035
Edit: Anyways, stop dragging this off-topic. If you wish to continue this conversation I would ask that you PM me.
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Every single military personnel in the world is going to react similarly in that situation. When an unidentified vehicle enters your sector, while a hostile target is being called, you stop it before it reaches you. Any soldier from a NATO country should react that way because it's in their RoE. FAF, SAF, all of them. Can you warn first? Sure, when it's at a certain distance but at some point you just have to stop it.
So what is your point, just because they followed their RoE still do not justify the killing of innocents. I don't think the average tax payers are going to be happy with their military's actions. Why would they keep supporting their military if majority of Americans feel what they did was wrong. If those soldiers action is the norm in the military, then their RoE should be changed, because the tax payers are not going be happy of how they handled the situation.
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Foxnews is blaming this on video games
they call it
army accused of "video game" killings
so low
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makes me glad im a groundpounder and not a rotorhead.
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On April 06 2010 11:53 theron[wdt] wrote:
makes me glad im a groundpounder and not a rotorhead.
personally this would make me ashamed to be part of the military. actually being part of any military would make me ashamed of myself.
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On April 06 2010 01:50 Pervect wrote:
"One small child wounded. Over."
"Roger. Ah damn. Oh well."
I mean I don't know what you could possibly say in a situation like that, but the ability to kill while being completely disconnected from the actual action (helicopters, drones, etc) really makes the killing a lot easier.
O when I watched the video I thought it was a regretful "AH. damn. Oh well" nothing we can do now sort of thinking. I suppose I am wrong?
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I watched the video, at 3:45 one of the men they were zooming in on had a long tube like object that was about half his height. It looked like an rpg to me. It also definitely looked like those guys next to him did in fact have ak47's. I watched this part over and over and I can't come to any other conclusion. I don't see how anyone can say that the Apache crew only seeing those guys once for a few moments could come to any other conclusion than that they were armed.
Now, for all you idiots saying the Apache crew is not in danger, they shouldn't have fired, shut up. Its not about them being in danger, they are air support for ground troops in the area. People brandishing what appears to be assault rifles and an rpg are a threat to your troops on the ground. You take them out so your friends don't have to engage them on the ground and possibly get killed.
I will say the shooting of the van was a bit questionable, but honestly you cannot tell whats in that van, could have been anything including more people with weapons. They don't have x-ray vision people.
I think most of you have such an overwhelming anti-american sentiment that you simply overlook some of the factors involved in the situation, and immediately jump to "duurrr Americans are all evil and stupid!" Typical.
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On April 06 2010 11:34 eMbrace wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2010 11:31 QibingZero wrote:On April 06 2010 10:58 eMbrace wrote:
Their enjoyment of it all really isn't all that bothersome and that's not what they should be judged for. On April 06 2010 08:52 Zack1900 wrote:
I don't feel that the pilots were wrong in enjoying the killing. They believed that they had killed insurgents that were going to try to kill soldiers. If I kill someone breaking into my house with a note taunting the cops to find the murder that killed everyone in the home I would be ecstatic. Are you people serious? Enjoying killing another human being is okay? I think that says about as much about your mental state as it does theirs. It is pretty funny that you're trying to justify it with a Castle Doctrine approach, though. You know, because the US are the ones breaking into the homes here (literally and figuratively). And your mental state is equally disturbing if you think you have any idea how people should feel in a warzone when they gun down what they think to be terroists disguised as civilians.
So it's disturbing to be upset that someone could be so far removed from humanity that they felt enjoyment when killing someone? I don't care who you're killing, you shouldn't be enjoying doing such. Even killing animals for food when you're starving is not something you actually enjoy the process of. Many meat-eating cultures have extreme respect for the animals they kill - taking time to offer such even though the killing is necessary for their survival. They may celebrate later as they eat, but they at least pay respects to the dead. Even if you somehow justify the killing itself, taking joy in the act is something that is absolute insanity.
If you look back a page, Jibba gave the reason they act like this - your mind has to dehumanize your enemy or else you're going to regret what you've done later. PTSD follows, and the next thing you know soldiers are killing themselves or someone else back home. It's grotesque that any part of civilized society finds this okay, and even more so that people are willing to attempt to justify it when things like this come to light.
For the record, it's things like this that are the reason my TL profile has country left blank rather than saying 'United States'.
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On April 06 2010 11:57 QibingZero wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2010 11:34 eMbrace wrote:On April 06 2010 11:31 QibingZero wrote:On April 06 2010 10:58 eMbrace wrote:
Their enjoyment of it all really isn't all that bothersome and that's not what they should be judged for. On April 06 2010 08:52 Zack1900 wrote:
I don't feel that the pilots were wrong in enjoying the killing. They believed that they had killed insurgents that were going to try to kill soldiers. If I kill someone breaking into my house with a note taunting the cops to find the murder that killed everyone in the home I would be ecstatic. Are you people serious? Enjoying killing another human being is okay? I think that says about as much about your mental state as it does theirs. It is pretty funny that you're trying to justify it with a Castle Doctrine approach, though. You know, because the US are the ones breaking into the homes here (literally and figuratively). And your mental state is equally disturbing if you think you have any idea how people should feel in a warzone when they gun down what they think to be terroists disguised as civilians. So it's disturbing to be upset that someone could be so far removed from humanity that they felt enjoyment when killing someone? I don't care who you're killing, you shouldn't be enjoying doing such. Even killing animals for food when you're starving is not something you actually enjoy the process of. Many meat-eating cultures have extreme respect for the animals they kill - taking time to offer such even though the killing is necessary for their survival. They may celebrate later as they eat, but they at least pay respects to the dead. Even if you somehow justify the killing itself, taking joy in the act is something that is absolute insanity. If you look back a page, Jibba gave the reason they act like this - your mind has to dehumanize your enemy or else you're going to regret what you've done later. PTSD follows, and the next thing you know soldiers are killing themselves or someone else back home. It's grotesque that any part of civilized society finds this okay, and even more so that people are willing to attempt to justify it when things like this come to light.
Then do you disagree with Jibba's explanation? All I said was I thought the behavior was understandable, and I'm not going to judge people based on comments they make in those types of situations.
And there are "normal" people who hunt animals for sport. I wouldn't enjoy killing an animal, but I don't think people who smile when they make a nice shot at a bird or something are mentally ill.
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On April 06 2010 12:03 eMbrace wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2010 11:57 QibingZero wrote:On April 06 2010 11:34 eMbrace wrote:On April 06 2010 11:31 QibingZero wrote:On April 06 2010 10:58 eMbrace wrote:
Their enjoyment of it all really isn't all that bothersome and that's not what they should be judged for. On April 06 2010 08:52 Zack1900 wrote:
I don't feel that the pilots were wrong in enjoying the killing. They believed that they had killed insurgents that were going to try to kill soldiers. If I kill someone breaking into my house with a note taunting the cops to find the murder that killed everyone in the home I would be ecstatic. Are you people serious? Enjoying killing another human being is okay? I think that says about as much about your mental state as it does theirs. It is pretty funny that you're trying to justify it with a Castle Doctrine approach, though. You know, because the US are the ones breaking into the homes here (literally and figuratively). And your mental state is equally disturbing if you think you have any idea how people should feel in a warzone when they gun down what they think to be terroists disguised as civilians. So it's disturbing to be upset that someone could be so far removed from humanity that they felt enjoyment when killing someone? I don't care who you're killing, you shouldn't be enjoying doing such. Even killing animals for food when you're starving is not something you actually enjoy the process of. Many meat-eating cultures have extreme respect for the animals they kill - taking time to offer such even though the killing is necessary for their survival. They may celebrate later as they eat, but they at least pay respects to the dead. Even if you somehow justify the killing itself, taking joy in the act is something that is absolute insanity. If you look back a page, Jibba gave the reason they act like this - your mind has to dehumanize your enemy or else you're going to regret what you've done later. PTSD follows, and the next thing you know soldiers are killing themselves or someone else back home. It's grotesque that any part of civilized society finds this okay, and even more so that people are willing to attempt to justify it when things like this come to light. Then do you disagree with Jibba's explanation? All I said was I thought the behavior was understandable, and I'm not going to judge people based on comments they make in those types of situations. And there are "normal" people who hunt animals for sport. I wouldn't enjoy killing an animal, but I don't think people who smile when they make a nice shot at a bird or something are mentally ill.
Killing animals is a lot different then killing humans and I would say normal people do it all the time but as for your point I agree to a certain extent.
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I've come to the conclusion that anyone who is outraged is also stupid.
First, if you're outraged because of the troops' behavior, why? Only someone who has experienced combat or a complete moron could say with certainty that they would handle the stress these men are under more gracefully. And, even if their language is somehow indicative of a lack of compassion, then why does that matter so long as it didn't affect their actions? We don't imprison psychopaths for being psychopaths. They described what they saw (accurately, I think) and requested permission. They got permission, and they fired. Now, I know I've already said that everyone who is outraged is stupid, but, of these stupid, the stupidest are certainly those who said the worst part of this video was the way the soldiers talked to one another.
Now, if you disagree with the rules of engagement, that is somewhat understandable. Personally, I think it is reasonable to open fire on a group of men congregated with AK-47's in an area where another unit was taking small arms fire earlier, especially when one of them has an RPG pointed at your buddies on the ground. I don't remember if this was in the 17:00 minute version, so here it is if it wasn't:
14:53 Bushmaster or element. Which Element called in Crazyhorse to engage the eight-elem- eight-men team on top of a roof.
15:02 Bushmaster Six; this is Hotel Two-Six. Uh, I believe that was me.
15:07 They uh had AK-47s and were to our east, so, where we were taking small arms fire. Over.
15:20 Hotel Crazyhorse One-Eight.
15:26 Crazyhorse One-Eight; this is Hotel Two-Six.
15:28 Yeah Two-Six. One-Eight I just also wanted to make sure you knew that we had a guy with an RPG cropping round the corner getting ready to fire on your location.
So we've got a group of men with AK-47's and an RPG. They're in an area where other units have recently taken small arms fire. And one of them is pointing the RPG at a unit's location. Not feeling the outrage.
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typical americans. and more typical americans defending them.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On April 06 2010 11:57 QibingZero wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2010 11:34 eMbrace wrote:On April 06 2010 11:31 QibingZero wrote:On April 06 2010 10:58 eMbrace wrote:
Their enjoyment of it all really isn't all that bothersome and that's not what they should be judged for. On April 06 2010 08:52 Zack1900 wrote:
I don't feel that the pilots were wrong in enjoying the killing. They believed that they had killed insurgents that were going to try to kill soldiers. If I kill someone breaking into my house with a note taunting the cops to find the murder that killed everyone in the home I would be ecstatic. Are you people serious? Enjoying killing another human being is okay? I think that says about as much about your mental state as it does theirs. It is pretty funny that you're trying to justify it with a Castle Doctrine approach, though. You know, because the US are the ones breaking into the homes here (literally and figuratively). And your mental state is equally disturbing if you think you have any idea how people should feel in a warzone when they gun down what they think to be terroists disguised as civilians. So it's disturbing to be upset that someone could be so far removed from humanity that they felt enjoyment when killing someone? I don't care who you're killing, you shouldn't be enjoying doing such. Even killing animals for food when you're starving is not something you actually enjoy the process of. Many meat-eating cultures have extreme respect for the animals they kill - taking time to offer such even though the killing is necessary for their survival. They may celebrate later as they eat, but they at least pay respects to the dead. Even if you somehow justify the killing itself, taking joy in the act is something that is absolute insanity.
I guess I think it's okay for the pilots to be happy, thinking they were eliminating a threat and possibly saving the lives of soldiers on the ground. I dunno what you mean by "enjoyment", but I don't think anyone's suggesting they were enjoying it physically/sexually.
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CNN TOP STORY: TIGER WOODS AND IPADS
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On April 06 2010 12:34 Babel wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2010 11:57 QibingZero wrote:On April 06 2010 11:34 eMbrace wrote:On April 06 2010 11:31 QibingZero wrote:On April 06 2010 10:58 eMbrace wrote:
Their enjoyment of it all really isn't all that bothersome and that's not what they should be judged for. On April 06 2010 08:52 Zack1900 wrote:
I don't feel that the pilots were wrong in enjoying the killing. They believed that they had killed insurgents that were going to try to kill soldiers. If I kill someone breaking into my house with a note taunting the cops to find the murder that killed everyone in the home I would be ecstatic. Are you people serious? Enjoying killing another human being is okay? I think that says about as much about your mental state as it does theirs. It is pretty funny that you're trying to justify it with a Castle Doctrine approach, though. You know, because the US are the ones breaking into the homes here (literally and figuratively). And your mental state is equally disturbing if you think you have any idea how people should feel in a warzone when they gun down what they think to be terroists disguised as civilians. So it's disturbing to be upset that someone could be so far removed from humanity that they felt enjoyment when killing someone? I don't care who you're killing, you shouldn't be enjoying doing such. Even killing animals for food when you're starving is not something you actually enjoy the process of. Many meat-eating cultures have extreme respect for the animals they kill - taking time to offer such even though the killing is necessary for their survival. They may celebrate later as they eat, but they at least pay respects to the dead. Even if you somehow justify the killing itself, taking joy in the act is something that is absolute insanity. I guess I think it's okay for the pilots to be happy, thinking they were eliminating a threat and possibly saving the lives of soldiers on the ground. I dunno what you mean by "enjoyment", but I don't think anyone's suggesting they were enjoying it physically/sexually.
I think you're being a little naive, if you think they're just glad they saved lives. It's sad that the gunners and pilots are so callous, but it's by no means surprising. In fact, I'm shocked that the military tried to cover this one up considering it's not much worse than other gun cam shots. It just so happened that they made a mistake with the targets on this one.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c4c_1216850063
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=262_1205064426
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=270_1181022471
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=3d7_1268833878
We're asking these guys to go over there and kill people, so of course the type of people we get will be the type that has no problem with killing. If you give them a big gun and what looks like a target, they'll gleefully light it up. It's ugly. That's war.
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On April 06 2010 11:22 cz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2010 11:21 NewStart wrote:On April 06 2010 11:19 cz wrote:On April 06 2010 11:18 NewStart wrote:On April 06 2010 10:59 Jibba wrote:On April 06 2010 10:28 Sean.G wrote:On April 06 2010 10:16 BDF92 wrote:On April 06 2010 10:03 Sean.G wrote:On April 06 2010 05:18 Hawk wrote:On April 06 2010 05:15 mdb wrote:
[quote]
Well, that must have been the fastest ever suicide truck preparation.
so there's no conceivable way that the truck could have been rigged in advance, and when troops come near, it detonates? Come on..... I think that the war is fucking retarded, as do most of the people here, but you have to be incredibly fucking stubborn to find anything wrong in the way the soldiers acted here. Take it in a vacuum—it's all by the books. WOW. I cannot believe how many people are defending this. This is ridiculous.. finding all sorts of stupid excuses to defend this makes me sick. Of course almost all of you are American, probably too proud to admit a mistake committed by fellow countrymen. "so there's no conceivable way that the truck could have been rigged in advance, and when troops come near, it detonates? Come on....." Seriously? Is that your argument? It was obvious that these people were no threat to anyone. There were people trying to hide from the firing helicopter and saving wounded people into a truck. Yes, there is probably a 1:10000000 chance that this truck can be harmful. But there will always be a chance equal to that or greater that ANYONE who looks like a civilian can be harmful. And the whole point is that THAT IS NOT ENOUGH TO MAKE THE DECISION TO KILL PEOPLE WHO MOST LIKELY ARE INNOCENT. And stop the bullshit about this being a situation where there is a lot of stress etc to defend their behaviour. Their decisions are really really poor and based on what they obviously wanted to believe, just assuming everyone is holding a gun without being certain and rapidly begging for permission to fire without having any more proof at all or them being under any threat at all. All the "what if he had an RPG that has a 1:1000 chance of killing them" bullshit shouldn't be enough to grant them permission to fire upon someone who they're not even certain has this weapon. Not to mention that there is an obvious lack of professionalism in the way they communicate and base their decisions for opening fire. The decision on whether they get to live or die is so easy to them, its really disgusting how you can defend that. Some of you say they were just following orders, however, the reason they received the order to engage was because they told the people who issued the orders that they saw multiple hostiles with AKs and RPGs and whatnot. The way they made this sound 100% certain (they never ever questioned whether they were civilians or not, as if they were either stupid or just didn't care) obviously was the reason they were granted permission to open fire so quickly.. Honestly, take your European pretentious attitude elsewhere, it's not that we're "too proud" to admit that someone from our country made a mistake. Just because they're American doesn't mean we have some stubborn drive to protect the U.S.'s dignity at any cost. We're playing devil's advocate so that it doesn't turn into a 100% hate America discussion. It is not an "attitude", I am using examples to show you that arguments some of you have used make no sense and are completely ridiculous. That is why I believe many of you might be too proud to admit that the decisions made by the people in this video were wrong. You have to admit though, that everyone is obviously not being 100% objective when obviously this is pretty much a thread where most Americans defend the soldiers and the rest are against them... (of course there are exceptions). And I also have to add that even though I admit my statement is a little too generalized, it would be naïve to believe that everyone who has posted in this thread has watched the video and given a completely objective unbiased opinion regardless of the nationality of the soldiers. That is very hard to do, and your opinion most likely automatically leans towards the defense of your own countrymen in the subconscious mind.. On the other hand, to stay on topic, what you are referring to was only the first paragraph in my post. I follow up by using valid arguments which should be pretty on-topic, so lets stick to that instead of starting a completely different discussion. Nothing in your post was valid. You made a bunch of uneducated, civilian based judgments on the level of threat and the general situation without being there, all while exhibiting that you have almost no concept of what goes on during warfare or what rules of engagement actually are. Every single military personnel in the world is going to react similarly in that situation. When an unidentified vehicle enters your sector, while a hostile target is being called, you stop it before it reaches you. Any soldier from a NATO country should react that way because it's in their RoE. FAF, SAF, all of them. Can you warn first? Sure, when it's at a certain distance but at some point you just have to stop it. Do you know why these videos exist? It's not some slip up that someone was recording or so that Dick Cheney could put together an awesome kill clip video set to "Let the Bodies Hit the Floor." Engagements are always recorded so that they can be reviewed and true mistakes, mistakes that were out of line and truly purposeless, can be corrected and punishment can be served. So if some family is going to their friends you have the right to kill them because you may have thought they have a bomb, right? Welcome to war, welcome to real life. Yes, welcome me to a unjustifiable war that a horrible president got us in. Irrelevant to the discussion. We are talking about the realities of war, not whether that war is justified or not.
Are you Dick Cheney?
User was temp banned for this post.
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On April 06 2010 12:49 starfries wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2010 12:34 Babel wrote:On April 06 2010 11:57 QibingZero wrote:On April 06 2010 11:34 eMbrace wrote:On April 06 2010 11:31 QibingZero wrote:On April 06 2010 10:58 eMbrace wrote:
Their enjoyment of it all really isn't all that bothersome and that's not what they should be judged for. On April 06 2010 08:52 Zack1900 wrote:
I don't feel that the pilots were wrong in enjoying the killing. They believed that they had killed insurgents that were going to try to kill soldiers. If I kill someone breaking into my house with a note taunting the cops to find the murder that killed everyone in the home I would be ecstatic. Are you people serious? Enjoying killing another human being is okay? I think that says about as much about your mental state as it does theirs. It is pretty funny that you're trying to justify it with a Castle Doctrine approach, though. You know, because the US are the ones breaking into the homes here (literally and figuratively). And your mental state is equally disturbing if you think you have any idea how people should feel in a warzone when they gun down what they think to be terroists disguised as civilians. So it's disturbing to be upset that someone could be so far removed from humanity that they felt enjoyment when killing someone? I don't care who you're killing, you shouldn't be enjoying doing such. Even killing animals for food when you're starving is not something you actually enjoy the process of. Many meat-eating cultures have extreme respect for the animals they kill - taking time to offer such even though the killing is necessary for their survival. They may celebrate later as they eat, but they at least pay respects to the dead. Even if you somehow justify the killing itself, taking joy in the act is something that is absolute insanity. I guess I think it's okay for the pilots to be happy, thinking they were eliminating a threat and possibly saving the lives of soldiers on the ground. I dunno what you mean by "enjoyment", but I don't think anyone's suggesting they were enjoying it physically/sexually. I think you're being a little naive, if you think they're just glad they saved lives. It's sad that the gunners and pilots are so callous, but it's by no means surprising. In fact, I'm shocked that the military tried to cover this one up considering it's not much worse than other gun cam shots. It just so happened that they made a mistake with the targets on this one. http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c4c_1216850063http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=262_1205064426http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=270_1181022471http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=3d7_1268833878We're asking these guys to go over there and kill people, so of course the type of people we get will be the type that has no problem with killing. If you give them a big gun and what looks like a target, they'll gleefully light it up. It's ugly. That's war.
I think QibingZero was suggesting the pilots were getting off on killing people, which I don't sense to be the case. A large part of training is preparing people psychologically to follow orders and kill without question. Chain of command and all that.
I don't understand what people are complaining about in terms of enjoyment, if there is any. Are the soldiers supposed to show remorse or something? Or treat each person they kill with respect? That's a little unrealistic.
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On April 06 2010 01:47 Puosu wrote:
"Look at all those dead bastards."
"YEAH." "Oh please let me shoot."
"Haha I think they just drove over a body."
What the fuck.. how do such mentally ill fuckers get that kind of power to just go shoot around in a god damn helicopter?
so naive about war lol
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On April 06 2010 13:10 lazz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2010 01:47 Puosu wrote:
"Look at all those dead bastards."
"YEAH." "Oh please let me shoot."
"Haha I think they just drove over a body."
What the fuck.. how do such mentally ill fuckers get that kind of power to just go shoot around in a god damn helicopter? so naive about war lol
So naive to reality. I'm not sure if you recognize the significance of human life.
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What those quotes remind me of was that bit on CoD 4 when you were the gunner in that AC130 and the other crew are having an awesome time slaying hundreds of poor bastards, you know, like
"This is gonna be one hell of a highlight reel"
"Man, that guy's pissed, that looked like a really nice car"
etc.
I always thought that was a bit unsettling, tbh...
at least in CoD 4 the church was not to be fired upon. Good to know SOMETHING'S sacred to the flytboys.
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EPT
