• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 01:20
CEST 07:20
KST 14:20
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall10HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0TL Team Map Contest #5: Presented by Monster Energy6
Community News
Firefly given lifetime ban by ESIC following match-fixing investigation12$25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced6Weekly Cups (June 30 - July 6): Classic Doubles6[BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China9Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL66
StarCraft 2
General
Firefly given lifetime ban by ESIC following match-fixing investigation The SCII GOAT: A statistical Evaluation TL Team Map Contest #4: Winners Weekly Cups (June 30 - July 6): Classic Doubles The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings
Tourneys
$25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series WardiTV Mondays
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame Mutation # 479 Worn Out Welcome Mutation # 478 Instant Karma
Brood War
General
BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ [G] Progamer Settings ASL20 Preliminary Maps [ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall SC uni coach streams logging into betting site
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China [BSL20] Grand Finals - Sunday 20:00 CET CSL Xiamen International Invitational
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile What do you want from future RTS games? Beyond All Reason
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Positive Thoughts on Setting Up a Dual-Caliber FX
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Summer Games Done Quick 2025! Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2025 Football Thread NBA General Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
Culture Clash in Video Games…
TrAiDoS
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 568 users

Nvidia the new 3dfx? - Page 6

Forum Index > General Forum
Post a Reply
Prev 1 4 5 6 All
Drowsy
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
United States4876 Posts
January 09 2010 19:56 GMT
#101
I don't know enough about graphics cards to be totally conclusive about it, but it seems like ATI is just owning Nvidia in most price brackets... The 4650 and 4670 have amazing price/performance ratio and are way better than the Geforce 9400/500, and at the high end the 5850-5970 seems like a way better deal than the GTX275-295. I'm not 100% sure about the midrange, but it seems like the cards are about equal but ATI's are always like 40-60$ cheaper for about the same performance, like the 5770 and the GTX260.
Our Protoss, Who art in Aiur HongUn be Thy name; Thy stalker come, Thy will be blunk, on ladder as it is in Micro Tourny. Give us this win in our daily ladder, and forgive us our cheeses, As we forgive those who play zerg against us.
TanGeng
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Sanya12364 Posts
January 09 2010 20:31 GMT
#102
nVidia and a total public relations disasters last year when their mobile GPU manufacturing process came out flawed. They pointed fingers at just about everyone including blaming their customers, the laptop assembly companies. They didn't make many friends during that episode so they're losing market share because of that. ATI's linux drivers still sucks. There is almost no documentation and it's hard to follow what is going on especially when a problem arises. In general ATI's non-windows software package is bad.

In the end, reliability and availability count more than benchmarks for most people. It explained why many companies stuck with Intel even when it was going through its P4 performance dip and ATI's server computing advantage with the Opteron.

nVidia's manufacturing flaw, its PR fiasco, and the lack of general availability of any new hardware on both sides just means that everyone is competing based on the last generation of GPUs and the ATI 4870's beat nVidia's GTX285 on price-performace.

Moderator我们是个踏实的赞助商模式俱乐部
DefMatrixUltra
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Canada1992 Posts
January 09 2010 20:36 GMT
#103
On January 09 2010 17:44 R1CH wrote:
It's very telling that NVIDIA hasn't released a new product since the GT200 series in mid-2008. Their previous cycle was a new product every six months, now they are just constantly rehashing the GT200. If their next card fails I think it will have a very serious impact on their ability to remain competitive with ATI finally becoming a serious contender.


And at that point people can start to talk about them doing badly over the next few years. The graphics market is the not the same as it used to be.

This is a fun and interesting story, but anyone that draws a conclusion that a company as huge and successful (in the long term, and somewhat in the short term) as nVidia is gonna pull a 3dfx is just fooling themselves.

The thing about being in a market of two competitors and being the top competitor is this: it's actually not a bad strategy to sit on your ass and have people send you their cash. You do little work (less investment in risky/newer technology) and still make approximately the same money in the short term. When your competition looks like it might be accomplishing something, you wake up from naptime and have a go at it again. This is simply a case of not enough competition coming from ATI.
Boblion
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
France8043 Posts
January 09 2010 20:57 GMT
#104
On January 10 2010 05:31 TanGeng wrote:
In the end, reliability and availability count more than benchmarks for most people. It explained why many companies stuck with Intel even when it was going through its P4 performance dip and ATI's server computing advantage with the Opteron.

They stuck with Intel because of its anti competitive practice
I doubt Intel has been fined 1+ billion for nothing -.-
fuck all those elitists brb watching streams of elite players.
ruXxar
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Norway5669 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-01-09 22:03:05
January 09 2010 21:44 GMT
#105
AMD was really closing to going under itself about 2 years ago.
If it wasn't due to Hector Ruiz's deal with ATIC(Advanced Technology Investment Company) of Abu Dhabi and the Asset Light model, AMD would probably have gone bankrupt.

AMD collaborated with ATIC to create a company called Global Foundries, which now own the Dresden FAB that AMD used to run. AMD got an infusion of cash, while still maintining a 50%(aprox) stake in GF. AMD then turned over to be a pure Design company, just like Nvidia is and ATI used to be.

The reduced cost of not having to pay for the fabs anymore allowed AMD to get somewhat back on it heels, and buy itself more time until they can release a competetive product.

It's not secret that it's the CPU division of AMD that is pulling in the big cash.
Even with the graphics division doing so well lately, it's not pulling in more than maybe a couple hundred millions $ per quarter.

AMD still has a huge debt, around 4-5 Billion Dollars and it really needs to release a killer product if it wants to stay in the game.

Alot hinges on the upcoming release of "Bulldozer" which will be released in First half of 2011

"alright guys im claiming my role im actually politician I can manipulate a persons vote during the day phase, used it on clarity last phase and forced him to vote for HF. full role name donald trump, definitely town sided". - EBH
ghermination
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
United States2851 Posts
January 09 2010 22:46 GMT
#106
On January 10 2010 06:44 ruXxar wrote:
AMD was really closing to going under itself about 2 years ago.
If it wasn't due to Hector Ruiz's deal with ATIC(Advanced Technology Investment Company) of Abu Dhabi and the Asset Light model, AMD would probably have gone bankrupt.

AMD collaborated with ATIC to create a company called Global Foundries, which now own the Dresden FAB that AMD used to run. AMD got an infusion of cash, while still maintining a 50%(aprox) stake in GF. AMD then turned over to be a pure Design company, just like Nvidia is and ATI used to be.

The reduced cost of not having to pay for the fabs anymore allowed AMD to get somewhat back on it heels, and buy itself more time until they can release a competetive product.

It's not secret that it's the CPU division of AMD that is pulling in the big cash.
Even with the graphics division doing so well lately, it's not pulling in more than maybe a couple hundred millions $ per quarter.

AMD still has a huge debt, around 4-5 Billion Dollars and it really needs to release a killer product if it wants to stay in the game.

Alot hinges on the upcoming release of "Bulldozer" which will be released in First half of 2011


Hexa-core 32nm parts ftw. I wonder how long it will be until we see 4ghz stock clocks.
U Gotta Skate.
StorkHwaiting
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States3465 Posts
January 09 2010 22:50 GMT
#107
Thanks for this OP. Really interesting read. I don't know enough to comment but will be interesting to see how things go. I used to be hardcore Nvidia user, but yeah, ATI has really stepped up in last few generations. My next gfx card will probably be an ATI 5xxx
peidongyang
Profile Joined January 2009
Canada2084 Posts
January 09 2010 23:01 GMT
#108
Intel isn't going to be buying nVid soon. Not after nVid said one day many years ago that the CPU will be phased out by a unified GPU...
the throws never bothered me anyway
ghermination
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
United States2851 Posts
January 09 2010 23:15 GMT
#109
On January 10 2010 08:01 peidongyang wrote:
Intel isn't going to be buying nVid soon. Not after nVid said one day many years ago that the CPU will be phased out by a unified GPU...

The funny part (not for nVidia) is that it's now the other way around. Intel, AMD, and ATI have all put signifigant money into integrating the GPU into the CPU, rather than the other way around, and intel just released new processors which did just that, integrating the GPU into the CPU. I don't really know much about how they run and how they overclock, but i imagine we'll eventually have CPU's with integrated gpu's that are as powerful as they are now, making for like a 250 watt+ processor on like a 2500 pin socket, but reducing the total size of the computers by a lot. Unfortunately nVidia hasn't put any money at all into CPU/GPU integration so they'll probably be left in the dust in that aspect.
I don't think we'll see the company outright fail, but if somehow they actually fail to release Fermi i don't think they'll ever completely recover.
U Gotta Skate.
haduken
Profile Blog Joined April 2003
Australia8267 Posts
January 10 2010 08:11 GMT
#110
man, this is so cut-throat, one product can change your luck completely. I wouldn't want to be working at these companies. Every day is like rollacoaster.
Rillanon.au
Manit0u
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
Poland17245 Posts
January 10 2010 08:59 GMT
#111
Oh, I would forget to add one important thing to the discussion: PhysX.
ATI can't have it = it sucks (see something with and without PhysX engine, like Mirror's Edge, and the difference is horrendeous).
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.
ghermination
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
United States2851 Posts
January 10 2010 09:02 GMT
#112
On January 10 2010 17:59 Manit0u wrote:
Oh, I would forget to add one important thing to the discussion: PhysX.
ATI can't have it = it sucks (see something with and without PhysX engine, like Mirror's Edge, and the difference is horrendeous).


Dude, PhysX is just a gimmick. There are other, more easily implemented, and either open source or cheaper to license physics systems. Nvidia is definitely trying to sell Physyx as some sort of gaming revolution when in reality it has very little to do with anything.
U Gotta Skate.
Patriot.dlk
Profile Blog Joined October 2004
Sweden5462 Posts
January 10 2010 09:09 GMT
#113
I read the OP and about half of the posts... Really nice OP could you make a blog next time instead so it's easier to keep track of your posts (if you intend to make more threads like these)
Zzoram
Profile Joined February 2008
Canada7115 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-01-10 09:12:39
January 10 2010 09:10 GMT
#114
nVidia is a dirty company. They created the 9800 series to trick consumers, because the 9800 is identical to the 8800, with maybe a 10% overclock, so basically the 8800 OC'd editions. I think the early 9800 cards were even labelled 8800 in the bios.

The Way Its Meant To Be Played is also a dirty scam. They paid to have Assassin's Creed PC remove DX10.1 support after the game had already come out because nVidia cards didn't have it, but ATI cards did, and it made the game run better on ATI cards.

PhysX is also a bit of a scam. That stuff can be done using non-proprietary code, but nVidia pays TWIMTBP partners to exclusively use PhysX so they can claim their cards can do something that ATI cards can't.

Basically, nVidia is evil. Instead of just doing their best to be better, they pay game developers/publishers to give them an unfair advantage against ATI. Their price/performance ratio has been worse than ATI ever since the HD4800 series came out, and when the GT300 series finally comes out this spring, it'll be overpriced for the performance yet again, since the massive die size and production yield problems will make the chips way more expensive to produce than the HD5800 series. Not only will the GT300 be 6 months late, but insanely priced. nVidia is going to have a tough year.
Drowsy
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
United States4876 Posts
January 10 2010 21:02 GMT
#115
On January 10 2010 18:10 Zzoram wrote:

The Way Its Meant To Be Played is also a dirty scam. They paid to have Assassin's Creed PC remove DX10.1 support after the game had already come out because nVidia cards didn't have it, but ATI cards did, and it made the game run better on ATI cards.




lol I had no idea they did that. That's fucked up wow.
Our Protoss, Who art in Aiur HongUn be Thy name; Thy stalker come, Thy will be blunk, on ladder as it is in Micro Tourny. Give us this win in our daily ladder, and forgive us our cheeses, As we forgive those who play zerg against us.
ghermination
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
United States2851 Posts
January 10 2010 22:10 GMT
#116
On January 11 2010 06:02 Drowsy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 10 2010 18:10 Zzoram wrote:

The Way Its Meant To Be Played is also a dirty scam. They paid to have Assassin's Creed PC remove DX10.1 support after the game had already come out because nVidia cards didn't have it, but ATI cards did, and it made the game run better on ATI cards.




lol I had no idea they did that. That's fucked up wow.

A lot of people aren't aware of that TWIMTBP bullshit. For example, the framerates people using nVidia cards experience in Borderlands are 10x smoother than they are on ATI cards. It's almost as if the game plays differently, and on ATI cards it always feels like sub 30 fps even though it's often far over that.
U Gotta Skate.
ghermination
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
United States2851 Posts
January 10 2010 22:14 GMT
#117
On January 10 2010 18:10 Zzoram wrote:
and when the GT300 series finally comes out this spring, it'll be overpriced for the performance yet again, since the massive die size and production yield problems will make the chips way more expensive to produce than the HD5800 series. Not only will the GT300 be 6 months late, but insanely priced. nVidia is going to have a tough year.


Consider this: When the gtx280 first launched, it's prices were everywhere from $400 to $600. It's 200x200mm die, with about a 60% yield rate, was rather expensive to produce but was still able to give off enough performance that nVidia was doing okay.

The gt300 is supposedly 320x320mm+, and with a 2% yield rate we can only imagine what the prices will be. I'm expecting something around $600+ for the premium (gtx380 or whatever) card, and probably between 200 and 300 for the gtx360.
U Gotta Skate.
udgnim
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States8024 Posts
January 10 2010 22:16 GMT
#118
Nvidia is a lot more diversified than 3dfx
E-Sports is competitive video gaming with a spectator fan base. Do not take the word "Sports" literally.
semantics
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
10040 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-01-10 23:02:35
January 10 2010 22:55 GMT
#119
What is this turning into a nvidia hate thread?
I know im quoting faud here but he has a valid point
http://www.fudzilla.com/content/view/15834/1/
http://www.fudzilla.com/content/view/15794/34/

You guys forget both Nvidia and ATI practice giving away free money free work to game devs which improves the quality by alot. Nvidia has a strong PR and marketing team so they came up with TWIMTBP it's also why there are alot of Nvidia edition crap like cases.

People think Nvidia will be like 3dFX you mean bought out and melded into another company
but wait that is ATI lol only diff is that ATI's brand name wasn't bad enough yet so AMD kept it.

Nvidia is the last great public Graphics card maker
Matrox is a specialty and privately own
3dfx was bought out by nvidia
ATI was bought out by AMD
ionno what S3 does anymore
creative jumped out of that business
intel only does igp

so for nvidia to fall would be a great hurt to the graphics card business and competition AMD would jack up the price modeling for the cards in an instant.
ghermination
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
United States2851 Posts
January 11 2010 05:12 GMT
#120
On January 11 2010 07:55 Virtue wrote:
What is this turning into a nvidia hate thread?
I know im quoting faud here but he has a valid point
http://www.fudzilla.com/content/view/15834/1/
http://www.fudzilla.com/content/view/15794/34/

You guys forget both Nvidia and ATI practice giving away free money free work to game devs which improves the quality by alot. Nvidia has a strong PR and marketing team so they came up with TWIMTBP it's also why there are alot of Nvidia edition crap like cases.

People think Nvidia will be like 3dFX you mean bought out and melded into another company
but wait that is ATI lol only diff is that ATI's brand name wasn't bad enough yet so AMD kept it.

Nvidia is the last great public Graphics card maker
Matrox is a specialty and privately own
3dfx was bought out by nvidia
ATI was bought out by AMD
ionno what S3 does anymore
creative jumped out of that business
intel only does igp

so for nvidia to fall would be a great hurt to the graphics card business and competition AMD would jack up the price modeling for the cards in an instant.

So you're saying that TWIMTBP isn't a rather unfair business practice? I'm sure being bribed to give performance advantages to Nvidia cards is great for
the developers at those companies.

Also i think you're over-estimating the value of a Nvidia being the "last great public graphics card maker". Nvidia still hasn't realized that within a surprisingly short amount of time they will be outdated when you take into considering that CPU/GPU integration is moving ahead by leaps and bounds.

The fact is that Nvidia has done great damage to themselves, and even to the market, with their business practices, and if they fail and are bought out by intel or something, it will only be their fault.
U Gotta Skate.
Prev 1 4 5 6 All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 4h 40m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Nina 220
StarCraft: Brood War
PianO 211
Noble 181
Bale 19
Dota 2
monkeys_forever680
NeuroSwarm92
ODPixel63
League of Legends
JimRising 852
Counter-Strike
Stewie2K755
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor119
Other Games
summit1g9655
shahzam688
hungrybox413
ViBE169
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick42077
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 17 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH357
• Hupsaiya 91
• Light_VIP 54
• practicex 24
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• sooper7s
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• Diggity4
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
League of Legends
• Lourlo829
• Stunt465
Upcoming Events
RSL Revival
4h 40m
ByuN vs SHIN
Clem vs Reynor
OSC
7h 40m
Replay Cast
18h 40m
RSL Revival
1d 4h
Classic vs Cure
FEL
1d 10h
OSC
1d 14h
RSL Revival
2 days
FEL
2 days
FEL
2 days
CSO Cup
2 days
[ Show More ]
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
2 days
Bonyth vs QiaoGege
Dewalt vs Fengzi
Hawk vs Zhanhun
Sziky vs Mihu
Mihu vs QiaoGege
Zhanhun vs Sziky
Fengzi vs Hawk
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
RSL Revival
3 days
FEL
3 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
3 days
Bonyth vs Dewalt
QiaoGege vs Dewalt
Hawk vs Bonyth
Sziky vs Fengzi
Mihu vs Zhanhun
QiaoGege vs Zhanhun
Fengzi vs Mihu
Replay Cast
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-07-07
HSC XXVII
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
Acropolis #3
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
Championship of Russia 2025
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025

Upcoming

2025 ACS Season 2: Qualifier
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSL Xiamen Invitational
CSL Xiamen Invitational: ShowMatche
2025 ACS Season 2
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
SEL Season 2 Championship
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
Underdog Cup #2
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.