So as some of you know I go to MSU. Theres a professor here who is I've personally felt really uncomfortable around because he always seemed a bit nuts. One of his rules (in a university mind you) would be no baseball hats.....no cell phones (even on vibrate). A few times he heard some kids phones vibrate and gave them a HUGE lecture infront of everyone and a stare of death. So anyway one day.....he starts up these talks about "the west" you know...how we should learn this history of "The west!" in science. Im all for history so I didnt put too much thought into that at the moment.
Dear Moslem Association: As a professor of Mechanical Engineering here at MSU I intend to protest your protest. I am offended not by cartoons, but by more mundane things like beheadings of civilians, cowardly attacks on public buildings, suicide murders, murders of Catholic priests (the latest in Turkey!), burnings of Christian churches, the continued persecution of Coptic Christians in Egypt, the imposition of Sharia law on non-Muslims, the rapes of Scandinavian girls and women (called “whores” in your culture), the murder of film directors in Holland, and the rioting and looting in Paris France. This is what offends me, a soft-spoken person and academic, and many, many, many of my colleagues. I counsel you dissatisfied, aggressive, brutal, and uncivilized slave-trading Moslems to be very aware of this as you proceeded with your infantile “protests.” If you do not like the values of the West — see the 1st Amendment — you are free to leave. I hope for God’s sake that most of you choose that option. Please return to your ancestral homelands and build them up yourselves instead of troubling Americans.
How fucking LOL is that? To a student organization? I knew something about this guy was off the moment I met him. Hes not one of those redneck Americans either which makes it more scary. I swear hes one of the most uncomfortable people Ive been around like I wouldn't be surprised if he brought a gun in one day.
Don't take his classes then. I know that is probably not an option, so maybe you could talk to your university guidance counselor and they can get you into a different class with a different teacher.
Hey I went to MSU for Electrical Engineering undergrad, ive never seen this guy in all my years in that building. But I know even my professors avoided him because he wasnt a pleasant guy. We talked about this in an ethics class I had.
There are a LOT of people with rightwing conservative views in this country who are not anything near king of the hill status. The stereotype concerning the midwest is somewhat absurd; intelligent, contributing members of society can have absolutely retarded political standpoints, too.
Hm I was hesitant to write something at first because I don't think he's crazy and I would disagree with what seems to be everyone's interpretation of the emails meaning. Until his last few sentences he was making some good points in what I think he was trying to get across. He was attacking their religion and the violence it has promoted, while they protest a f***ing cartoon when the members of their religion threaten to kill someone if they so much as draw a cartoon of the prophet muhammad. I share his frustration in that networks are afraid to show pictures of muhammad in cartoons or whatever, I thought this country promoted free speech, we shouldn't live in fear of retribution from any religiosity. So I may be wrong in what he meant, but I read it numerous times and to me its more of an attack on the muslim faith/religion and the fundamentals of free speech. He certainly could have done a better job wording and expressing himself, especially to a student organization, but other than the last few sentences he has a point.
full disclosure i am a non-believer not a christian if someone wonders that after what i wrote.
I dont think he should lose his job or anything. Hes just a nut. If you guys knew him youd probably read the letter with a different tone. Hes seems totally capable of snapping at any moment.
Dear Moslem Association: As a professor of Mechanical Engineering here at MSU I intend to protest your protest. I am offended not by cartoons, but by more mundane things like beheadings of civilians, cowardly attacks on public buildings, suicide murders, murders of Catholic priests (the latest in Turkey!), burnings of Christian churches, the continued persecution of Coptic Christians in Egypt, the imposition of Sharia law on non-Muslims, the rapes of Scandinavian girls and women (called “whores” in your culture), the murder of film directors in Holland, and the rioting and looting in Paris France. This is what offends me, a soft-spoken person and academic, and many, many, many of my colleagues. I counsel you dissatisfied, aggressive, brutal, and uncivilized slave-trading Moslems to be very aware of this as you proceeded with your infantile “protests.” If you do not like the values of the West — see the 1st Amendment — you are free to leave. I hope for God’s sake that most of you choose that option. Please return to your ancestral homelands and build them up yourselves instead of troubling Americans.
Aside from addressing this letter to a student organization, there's nothing inaccurate in this letter.
There's stuff in the letter that is clearly unnecessary and over the top. But the point he's making with all the really messed up stuff that is happening all over the world, that being upset over a harmless cartoon is retarded, is fine.
Funny cartoon --> hate an entire country and protest against it = stupid Lots of messed up stuff --> hate Muslims = stupid
Maybe he thinks by sending this letter they will see how dumb it is to hate an entire group for something, especially in the case of some harmless cartoon. Your professor is clearly a bit messed up but I really hated what was happening over that cartoon as well. Muslims were burning Danish flags all over the world it was so confronting and sad. Over a little cartoon. Some lines on white paper. At the same time Muslims (who don't represent their fellow Muslims) were doing the stuff your professor described, and in return their fellow Muslims also don't think they deserve to be hated for that. Yet they think its ok to protest against Denmark for allowing some cartoons one single guy drew to be published.
On September 17 2009 12:43 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: There's stuff in the letter that is clearly unnecessary and over the top. But the point he's making with all the really messed up stuff that is happening all over the world, that being upset over a harmless cartoon is retarded, is fine.
Funny cartoon --> hate an entire country and protest against it = stupid Lots of messed up stuff --> hate Muslims = stupid
Maybe he thinks by sending this letter they will see how dumb it is to hate an entire group for something, especially in the case of some harmless cartoon. Your professor is clearly a bit messed up but I really hated what was happening over that cartoon as well. Muslims were burning Danish flags all over the world it was so confronting and sad. Over a little cartoon. Some lines on white paper.
The student organization wasnt hating anyone.
Maybe some zip is lost since you guys havent seen him in person. Knowing the guy and reading the letter.....hes for sure a nut.
I mean these are kids my age who hes telling to go back to their countries because they want to protest something that happened in denmark.
On September 17 2009 12:35 BanZu wrote: I don't see anything wrong with his letter.
i don't either
are you blind? its called the slippery slope fallacy. where because the students are protesting a cartoon, it obviously means they are part of a terrorist organisation and are slave traders etc etc
They were protesting against a cartoon drawn in another country and continent. To get out of your bed to protest against that is some serious hate in my eyes.
are you blind? its called the slippery slope fallacy. where because the students are protesting a cartoon, it obviously means they are part of a terrorist organisation and are slave traders etc etc
It's possible that he was trying to show how stupid it is to hate an entire country over a cartoon by showing them the stupidity of claiming they are part of a terrorist organization. That or he's crazy himself as well. But no more than those students.
They were protesting against a cartoon drawn in another country and continent. To get out of your bed to protest against that is some serious hate in my eyes.
what?
You obviously havent been to many college campuses in America.
MSU (Michigan state uni, amirite?) should seriously fire the professor under moral grounds. I remember once thinking that way for a day or two when a korean guy was executed by a muslim terrorist group back in '02... I was in 6th grade...
You obviously havent been to many college campuses in America.
You obviously have no idea of the outrage that cartoon caused in the Muslim world. Read that with care. A cartoon.
I call bullshit on most of that. While people being offended about it im sure happened. Even if there were thousands marching thats a drop in the population. Not everyone in Iran is a fucking nut who screams death to america.
Not to mention
"Moslem" is a total hillbilly and derogatory way to address Muslims in most peoples eyes. Its like calling Asians Orientals or arabs, A-Rabs.
At my school we had a professor that used to come to class stoned. I never took any of his classes but I read about him getting disciplined/fired after videos of his lectures started to rack up millions of hits on youtube
You obviously havent been to many college campuses in America.
You obviously have no idea of the outrage that cartoon caused in the Muslim world. Read that carefully. A cartoon.
A cartoon which was published in a reputable western journal. This is very different from islamic extremist terrorist groups who are far removed from the average muslim. The problem with that cartoon was that it was allowed to be published in the first place.
Can you even imagine the outrage the U.S. students would bring about if a chinese national journal published a cartoon of them blasting the U.S. with a batch of nukes? Or how about if that journal published a Red soldier(as in a communist soldier) stomping over Jesus and his cross, ripping the bible apart with bullets?
PS: I'm a protestan korean living in korea, but I have muslim friends and can't help but feel insulted at your biased and polluted view of muslims
On September 17 2009 12:52 Sadist wrote: I call bullshit on most of that. While people being offended about it im sure happened. Even if there were thousands marching thats a drop in the population. Not everyone in Iran is a fucking nut who screams death to america.
Not to mention
"Moslem" is a total hillbilly and derogatory way to address Muslims in most peoples eyes. Its like calling Asians Orientals or arabs, A-Rabs.
This led to protests across the Muslim world, some of which escalated into violence with police firing on the crowds (resulting in more than 100 deaths, all together),[1] including setting fire to the Danish Embassies in Syria, Lebanon and Iran, storming European buildings, and desecrating the Danish, Dutch, Norwegian and German flags in Gaza City. While a number of Muslim leaders called for protesters to remain peaceful, other Muslim leaders across the globe, including Mahmoud al-Zahar of Hamas, issued death threats.[2][3] Various groups, primarily in the Western world, responded by endorsing the Danish policies, including "Buy Danish" campaigns and other displays of support. Danish Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen described the controversy as Denmark's worst international crisis since World War II.[4]
So.. yeah.
On September 17 2009 12:54 win8282 wrote: A cartoon which was published in a reputable western journal. This is very different from islamic extremist terrorist groups who are far removed from the average muslim. The problem with that cartoon was that it was allowed to be published in the first place.
Can you even imagine the outrage the U.S. students would bring about if a chinese national journal published a cartoon of them blasting the U.S. with a batch of nukes? Or how about if that journal published a Red soldier(as in a communist soldier) stomping over Jesus and his cross, ripping the bible apart with bullets?
PS: I'm a protestan korean living in korea, but I have muslim friends and can't help but feel insulted at your biased and polluted view of muslims
I don't know where you got that I have a polluted view of Muslims? I've only that the cartoons created a ridiculous outrage in the Muslim world. That does not mean every Muslim, not even a majority of Muslims. What is wrong with what I said, it's a simple fact.
I know all about the outrage. Im talking about the scale of it. Even if shit was burned like I said thats a drop in the bucket of the population. You wouldnt criticize the entire US based on the actions of KKK or the people who bomb abortion clinics.
Don't we get enough history about the west throughout the 12 years of school before college? Everyone else gets like 2 weeks. Heck if were talking about the US, everyone else in the world has more education on their history than any other culture besides themselves.
On September 17 2009 12:35 BanZu wrote: I don't see anything wrong with his letter.
i don't either
are you blind? its called the slippery slope fallacy. where because the students are protesting a cartoon, it obviously means they are part of a terrorist organisation and are slave traders etc etc
the guys a loony
Just to put this out there; the Islam the West knows isn't the Islam practiced in Africa, Asia minor and the Middle East. To resign myself to title of 'bigot,' the phrase 'Muslim extremist' is a misnomer. Literal belief in the Qur'an necessitates this sort of extremism, it's inherent in Islam; not so much the Qur'an as the Hadith (non-literal belief in the Qur'an necessitates apostasy). If these students hail from the Middle East, Africa or Asia minor, then the attitude they've brought over towards the West isn't one of friendliness. If they are true to the teachings of the Qur'an, that extremist attitude will eventually manifest. Consider the fact that they are protesting cartoons, some of which are known to be fraudulent -- they don't have a right to not be offended.
I'm not saying these students are like this. What I am saying, though, is that the West doesn't understand Islam.
I also have no interest in arguing the point with someone who isn't Islamic.
On September 17 2009 12:58 Sadist wrote: I know all about the outrage. Im talking about the scale of it. Even if shit was burned like I said thats a drop in the bucket of the population. You wouldnt criticize the entire US based on the actions of KKK or the people who bomb abortion clinics.
That's exactly my point. Those protests were against the Western world, and Denmark in particular. Which is ridiculous. As ridiculous as it is to hold the whole Muslim world responsible for the action of a few Muslims. The protests against the Danish cartoons were aimed at the Western world and in particular Denmark. Which is precisely what your professor is doing except he reverses it and uses their generalization against themselves.
Now I don't know if he's serious about this or whether he's using it to show them how stupid it is.
His delivery is extraordinarily (and somewhat disturbingly) poor for a professor, but I can't blame him for taking issue with a Muslim student group. There have been numerous cases around the country in which Muslim student organizations have been exposed as fostering extremism, violence and antisemitism.
On September 17 2009 12:58 Sadist wrote: I know all about the outrage. Im talking about the scale of it. Even if shit was burned like I said thats a drop in the bucket of the population. You wouldnt criticize the entire US based on the actions of KKK or the people who bomb abortion clinics.
That's exactly my point. Those protests were against the Western world, and Denmark in particular. Which is ridiculous. As ridiculous as it is to hold the whole Muslim world responsible for the action of a few Muslims.
The students were protesting them as hate speech. Not that they fucking drew Mohammed.
Believe me. Im atheist to the core and think religion shouldnt be treated with any respect really....however what the guy wrote was way the fuck out of line for a student organization.
so, not to derail the thread, but i'm teaching a freshman composition course, anyone have ideas for how to inject some crazy into it? i thought about instituting a "if your cell phone rings during class, you have to let me answer it" policy
On September 17 2009 12:35 BanZu wrote: I don't see anything wrong with his letter.
i don't either
are you blind? its called the slippery slope fallacy. where because the students are protesting a cartoon, it obviously means they are part of a terrorist organisation and are slave traders etc etc
the guys a loony
Just to put this out there; the Islam the West knows isn't the Islam practiced in Africa, Asia minor and the Middle East. To resign myself to title of 'bigot,' the phrase 'Muslim extremist' is a misnomer. Literal belief in the Qur'an necessitates this sort of extremism, it's inherent in Islam; not so much the Qur'an as the Hadith (non-literal belief in the Qur'an necessitates apostasy). If these students hail from the Middle East, Africa or Asia minor, then the attitude they've brought over towards the West isn't one of friendliness. If they are true to the teachings of the Qur'an, that extremist attitude will eventually manifest. Consider the fact that they are protesting cartoons, some of which are known to be fraudulent -- they don't have a right to not be offended.
I'm not saying these students are like this. What I am saying, though, is that the West doesn't understand Islam.
I also have no interest in arguing the point with someone who isn't Islamic.
And if you took everyword the bible says at its face value, you'd have to execute every gay, lesbo, cheating husbands/wives, the list goes on.
(sarcasm)So yeah. It is inherent in Christian culture that violence against such groups is not only good, but supported by God. Long live the KKK!
On September 17 2009 13:03 Sadist wrote: The students were protesting them as hate speech. Not that they fucking drew Mohammed.
Believe me. Im atheist to the core and think religion shouldnt be treated with any respect really....however what the guy wrote was way the fuck out of line for a student organization.
Yes, big deal? Some people hate in SC, others hate on MMA. Some make bad jokes about the things I like. Big fucking deal. I don't disagree they were offensive to Muslims, but try look for cartoons that are offensive to Christians or Jews, you would never be done with the amount of those out there.
On September 17 2009 12:35 BanZu wrote: I don't see anything wrong with his letter.
i don't either
are you blind? its called the slippery slope fallacy. where because the students are protesting a cartoon, it obviously means they are part of a terrorist organisation and are slave traders etc etc
the guys a loony
Just to put this out there; the Islam the West knows isn't the Islam practiced in Africa, Asia minor and the Middle East. To resign myself to title of 'bigot,' the phrase 'Muslim extremist' is a misnomer. Literal belief in the Qur'an necessitates this sort of extremism, it's inherent in Islam; not so much the Qur'an as the Hadith (non-literal belief in the Qur'an necessitates apostasy). If these students hail from the Middle East, Africa or Asia minor, then the attitude they've brought over towards the West isn't one of friendliness. If they are true to the teachings of the Qur'an, that extremist attitude will eventually manifest. Consider the fact that they are protesting cartoons, some of which are known to be fraudulent -- they don't have a right to not be offended.
I'm not saying these students are like this. What I am saying, though, is that the West doesn't understand Islam.
I also have no interest in arguing the point with someone who isn't Islamic.
This statement is largely true. I am not Islamic, and while I can only claim the superficial knowledge that taking a class on Islam taught by an Islamic professor can provide, it is quite true that the Qur'an is meant to be taken literally. So much so that to even read it in a language other than Arabic is tantamount to not reading the true words. To be a real Muslim, and not be forever second-class, you have to learn Arabic so that you can read the true words of Allah. It is definitely meant to be taken completely literally, and it is quite extremist in it's sayings. Read it yourself!
On September 17 2009 13:05 benjammin wrote: so, not to derail the thread, but i'm teaching a freshman composition course, anyone have ideas for how to inject some crazy into it? i thought about instituting a "if your cell phone rings during class, you have to let me answer it" policy
I think this deserves a thread Insert poll to determine what crazy bullcrap you pull on your students I vote for a dunce hat anyone has to wear when they ask a question including the words "why" "what" or "how".
On September 17 2009 12:58 Sadist wrote: I know all about the outrage. Im talking about the scale of it. Even if shit was burned like I said thats a drop in the bucket of the population. You wouldnt criticize the entire US based on the actions of KKK or the people who bomb abortion clinics.
That's exactly my point. Those protests were against the Western world, and Denmark in particular. Which is ridiculous. As ridiculous as it is to hold the whole Muslim world responsible for the action of a few Muslims. The protests against the Danish cartoons were aimed at the Western world and in particular Denmark. Which is precisely what your professor is doing except he reverses it and uses their generalization against themselves.
Now I don't know if he's serious about this or whether he's using it to show them how stupid it is.
I believe his point was that they were protesting something insignificant and silly in comparison to the things occurring in Muslim regions and that is what they should be protesting. The actions of some do not define a people, but the people's response does. There are people in Muslim nations fighting for change while they are protesting cartoons...
This is not necessarily my opinion, just where I think the professor was coming from.
I dont really have a problem with his letter up until
I counsel you dissatisfied, aggressive, brutal, and uncivilized slave-trading Moslems to be very aware of this as you proceeded with your infantile “protests.” If you do not like the values of the West — see the 1st Amendment — you are free to leave. I hope for God’s sake that most of you choose that option. Please return to your ancestral homelands and build them up yourselves instead of troubling Americans.
Saying all those acts are the responsability of the whole of muslim culture is like saying tha drug trafficking is responsability of the whole of latin american culture.
counsel you dissatisfied, aggressive, brutal, and uncivilized slave-trading Moslems to be very aware of this as you proceeded with your infantile “protests.”
It does sound ridiculous, without that sentence the letter is not bad at all.
But can't it be that by making those over the top statements he is trying to show them how ridiculous it is to judge all of Denmark over some cartoon? Just as how ridiculous it is that he is equaling these students to the deeds of other Muslims.
If you do not like the values of the West — see the 1st Amendment — you are free to leave.
What's wrong with this? If you are protesting against freedom of speech I seriously urge you not to live in a western country. Everyone is free to stick to their culture and their norms and values, but there's a few things in the western world that are simply not up for discussion. Freedom of speech and press is one of them.
On September 17 2009 13:20 D10 wrote: Saying all those acts are the responsability of the whole of muslim culture is like saying tha drug trafficking is responsability of the whole of latin american culture.
Or that a whole country is responsible for some random cartoons.
counsel you dissatisfied, aggressive, brutal, and uncivilized slave-trading Moslems to be very aware of this as you proceeded with your infantile “protests.”
It does sound ridiculous, without that sentence the letter is not bad at all.
But can't it be that by making those over the top statements he is trying to show them how ridiculous it is to judge all of Denmark over some cartoon? Just as how ridiculous it is that he is equaling these students to the deeds of other Muslims.
If you do not like the values of the West — see the 1st Amendment — you are free to leave.
What's wrong with this? If you are protesting against freedom of speech I seriously urge you not to live in a western country. Everyone is free to stick to their culture and their norms and values, but there's a few things in the western world that are simply not up for discussion. Freedom of speech and press is one of them.
people werent protesting freedom of speech at msu. Maybe I wasnt clear in that. They were protesting the drawings as "hate" speech. Kind of like what the KKK does. I dunno if you know about it since you live in Europe but when the KKK comes to towns here (specifically Lansing since we are the Capitol of Michigan) tons of people come out to protest them because of what they say. They dont protest their right to say it.
AFAIK the MSU students were not protesting the right to publish the cartoons like a majority of the people in the muslim world(those that were protesting).
On September 17 2009 13:20 D10 wrote: Saying all those acts are the responsability of the whole of muslim culture is like saying tha drug trafficking is responsability of the whole of latin american culture.
Or that a whole country is responsible for some random cartoons.
I think that when protests all over the world against the Danish cartoons result in flag burnings, deaths, death threats and hate of a whole country, you should think twice before hosting your own protest against Danish cartoons.
I also don't think those cartoons were comparable to what the KKK does. Not 'kind of like that' at all. They are harmless and in poor taste. That is really all there's to it. Any attention you give them is going to create hate both ways. It's not that hard to ignore a tasteless joke. I bet you can find jokes a million times harsher out there about any society, religion or country you want.
On September 17 2009 13:31 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I think that when protests all over the world against the Danish cartoons result in flag burnings, deaths, death threats and hate of a whole country, you should think twice before hosting your own protest against Danish cartoons.
I also don't think those cartoons were comparable to what the KKK does. Not 'kind of like that' at all. They are harmless and in poor taste. That is really all there's to it. Any attention you give them is going to create hate both ways. It's not that hard to ignore a tasteless joke.
Of course I feel the same way.
However I dont feel like you should label someone an extremist because they protested cartoons that were in poor taste as hate speech. I personally feel you should ignore the KKK because they are a bunch of dumb ignorant fucks and you give them attention by showing up to protest but not everyone agrees with that.
Im sure the muslim kids at MSU just latched onto the bandwagon but then this guy comes out of nowhere and labels them with this shit. Again I dont have any problem with the letter up until the ending (and the use of the word Moslem)
On September 17 2009 13:05 benjammin wrote: so, not to derail the thread, but i'm teaching a freshman composition course, anyone have ideas for how to inject some crazy into it? i thought about instituting a "if your cell phone rings during class, you have to let me answer it" policy
My high school math teacher did this. He was an awesome guy.
A lot of it probably depends on your personality and what's natural for you.
He was a sports coach also so if you swore you had the option of writing 10 sentences, 10 pushups, or 10 situps. I don't know what happens when students flat out refuse, our class was pretty nice.
He'd talk about a lot of stories too and how he'd make a scene with his players when they were in public. After winning a game he might take them to dinner and act like this hard ass coach and pretend to yell at his kids. One time one of the people at the restaurant saw it before and said to him in a joking voice oh no what are you gonna do? Then he gave him this death stare like he couldn't believe what that guy just said to him and tried to make his eyes bulge out and neck veins pop out. He was a really interesting guy and a lot of his personality came out when he talked.
He'd make up songs too about math and told us tricks that helped him remember stuff in school.
I don't think most teacher's could pull off his style. But most teacher's can convey some personality when they talk to their students. Lame PG rated jokes are always good. Teachers can often be sorta lame and cool with most students. I didn't know any teacher's that told inappropriate jokes and I'd imagine those could make it really awkward if it fails.
One of my teachers was a history teacher and he really got into it. So when we were learning about the civil war he told us that we'd all do an exercise putting together our gun and reloading each shot outside. Turns out it was raining harder than ever that day and was first period so we all went out there at 8 am in the rain and he pretended to be like a drill sergeant (No pushups) while he timed us on how fast we could reload our guns.
Also later that same teacher did this exercise in the class to simulate trench warfare and the desks were turned on their sides to simulate the maze of trenches we'd go through. Other people were to shoot water guns at people and throw water baloons. We got really wet. Later I remember him saying that he hired a professional steam cleaner twice and the carpet still wasn't the same afterwards.
The history teacher wouldn't be able to copy the math teacher's style nor vice versa. They were both very memorable and good teachers. Do things that fit your personality and do a lot of group exercises to involve students. Games related to what you're teaching is really good and years later people will still remember some of the stuff because it was a distinct memory.
On September 17 2009 13:38 ForSC2 wrote: One of my teachers was a history teacher and he really got into it. So when we were learning about the civil war he told us that we'd all do an exercise putting together our gun and reloading each shot outside. Turns out it was raining harder than ever that day and was first period so we all went out there at 8 am in the rain and he pretended to be like a drill sergeant (No pushups) while he timed us on how fast we could reload our guns.
So I get having an interesting teacher, but what confuses me is why you all get civil war-era guns.
On September 17 2009 12:52 Sadist wrote: I call bullshit on most of that. While people being offended about it im sure happened. Even if there were thousands marching thats a drop in the population. Not everyone in Iran is a fucking nut who screams death to america.
Not to mention
"Moslem" is a total hillbilly and derogatory way to address Muslims in most peoples eyes. Its like calling Asians Orientals or arabs, A-Rabs.
This led to protests across the Muslim world, some of which escalated into violence with police firing on the crowds (resulting in more than 100 deaths, all together),[1] including setting fire to the Danish Embassies in Syria, Lebanon and Iran, storming European buildings, and desecrating the Danish, Dutch, Norwegian and German flags in Gaza City. While a number of Muslim leaders called for protesters to remain peaceful, other Muslim leaders across the globe, including Mahmoud al-Zahar of Hamas, issued death threats.[2][3] Various groups, primarily in the Western world, responded by endorsing the Danish policies, including "Buy Danish" campaigns and other displays of support. Danish Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen described the controversy as Denmark's worst international crisis since World War II.[4]
On September 17 2009 12:54 win8282 wrote: A cartoon which was published in a reputable western journal. This is very different from islamic extremist terrorist groups who are far removed from the average muslim. The problem with that cartoon was that it was allowed to be published in the first place.
Can you even imagine the outrage the U.S. students would bring about if a chinese national journal published a cartoon of them blasting the U.S. with a batch of nukes? Or how about if that journal published a Red soldier(as in a communist soldier) stomping over Jesus and his cross, ripping the bible apart with bullets?
PS: I'm a protestan korean living in korea, but I have muslim friends and can't help but feel insulted at your biased and polluted view of muslims
I don't know where you got that I have a polluted view of Muslims? I've only that the cartoons created a ridiculous outrage in the Muslim world. That does not mean every Muslim, not even a majority of Muslims. What is wrong with what I said, it's a simple fact.
If you're going to respond at my post, respond to my points, not just the point that's easiest to refute... Comn Liquid!
I honestly don't think I have anything to add or say if you can't see the difference between a tasteless joke about religion and a cartoon of them blasting the U.S. with a batch of nukes.
And if it was published by a small privately owned newspaper representing the view of 1/1000000000 inhabitants and presented in the form of a joke I don't think anyone would make a big deal out of it.
On September 17 2009 13:05 benjammin wrote: so, not to derail the thread, but i'm teaching a freshman composition course, anyone have ideas for how to inject some crazy into it? i thought about instituting a "if your cell phone rings during class, you have to let me answer it" policy
Haha one of my profs at MSU had a well known standing rule that if your cell phone goes off in class you had to wear this funny old hat and he takes a picture of you. It was all in good fun but in reality he has some OCD thing about cell phones (he dosen't own one). It was pretty funny, it only happened once in the 2 classes I had with him but it was great :D
I'm from Ann Arbor and go to U of M but I have a ton of friend who go to MSU. What's the name of the professor? I wonder if any of my friends had him and share the same opinion.
On September 17 2009 13:38 ForSC2 wrote: One of my teachers was a history teacher and he really got into it. So when we were learning about the civil war he told us that we'd all do an exercise putting together our gun and reloading each shot outside. Turns out it was raining harder than ever that day and was first period so we all went out there at 8 am in the rain and he pretended to be like a drill sergeant (No pushups) while he timed us on how fast we could reload our guns.
So I get having an interesting teacher, but what confuses me is why you all get civil war-era guns.
They weren't real guns, they were some duct taped blocks of wood or something if I remember. (I don't even remember what the gun was.) We did the exercise to simulate the conditions that people that shot in formation would have had to endure. So we lined up in a line and other people would be in front crouched. We'd get timed on putting the gun together and timed on reloading the gun after taking a shot. So we had to follow some steps to reload the gun like pour the gunpowder in put that stick in the hole etc.
You obviously havent been to many college campuses in America.
You obviously have no idea of the outrage that cartoon caused in the Muslim world. Read that carefully. A cartoon.
A cartoon which was published in a reputable western journal. This is very different from islamic extremist terrorist groups who are far removed from the average muslim. The problem with that cartoon was that it was allowed to be published in the first place.
Can you even imagine the outrage the U.S. students would bring about if a chinese national journal published a cartoon of them blasting the U.S. with a batch of nukes? Or how about if that journal published a Red soldier(as in a communist soldier) stomping over Jesus and his cross, ripping the bible apart with bullets?
PS: I'm a protestan korean living in korea, but I have muslim friends and can't help but feel insulted at your biased and polluted view of muslims
On September 17 2009 13:48 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I honestly don't think I have anything to add or say if you can't see the difference between a tasteless joke about religion and a cartoon of them blasting the U.S. with a batch of nukes.
And if it was published by a small privately owned newspaper representing the view of 1/1000000000 inhabitants and presented in the form of a joke I don't think anyone would make a big deal out of it.
Well, they made a big fuss out of it.. and we learned never, ever to make fun of them even with the slightest of jokes. lolz
But just to be on topic, shouldn't a professor not act like an pathetic asshole then bragging about academia? This prof's letter is really way out of line and yeah I don't understand why he hasn't supervised with his behavior.
I don't understand; you're talking as if the student union was committing the "flag burnings" and whatever bullshit and "hatred against all Westerners". Although I admit I haven't spent the time to look into their protest or anything, from what the guy posted it seems that it is merely a protest against something inappropriate in a reputable journal, not derogatory hatred to the entire Western society. Considering they attend a college in the US, I doubt they would be burning flags either - it is one thing for the few radical extremists in the world to be committing atrocities on the behalf of their religion, but it is a completely different situation if a group of students are merely voicing their distaste in a cartoon posted in a journal. In some places Christian unions issue similar protests and seem to always get their way, but who ever cares about the atrocities their radical followers commit? Every religion has some extremists who do wrong things, but it seems that only Islam is slammed on the most - probably because it is what most people are interested in hearing about. It is also a terrifying sight if someone extrapolates the actions of a few radical Muslims (okay fine, there's quite a lot) to a student group union and the entire religion of Islam, but unfortunately a very high majority of the population seem to be ignorant enough to do that very thing.
As far as I am concerned any protest against freedom of expression (IE, the existence of a harmless, tasteless cartoon) is pathetic and warrants mocking. His letter was fine up until the end of it, where he was like go the fuck home, which was over the top I guess but who really cares?
Muslim students were protesting the existence of a cartoon, they have the right to do that, just like we have the right to publish the cartoon, mock them for being stupid assholes, and then continue to laugh when we don't care about there protests.
I feel strongly about freedom of speech and expression, if they can't respect that than fuck off. All religions get mocked at some point or another, take it in stride and shut up, if you don't like something then don't look at it. Simple.
I have always had a small grudge and a lack of patience for any people who are intensely religious, I just don't have time to deal with that level of stupidity and gullibility. I am agnostic, they would be offended by my believe that any of the big religions share an equal amount of possible truth as the flying spaghetti monster, or the Spork god.
I don't see why western society should appease Muslim's retarded outrage over a couple of fucking cartoons, by compromising our societies beliefs.
But more or less back on topic, the students should shut up and get real, we live in fucking America. That is whats giving you the right to protest, enjoy it, love it. Except the pros and cons of freedom. That means letting trivial shit like a bad cartoon just kind of float on by without really saying much, because its within my right like anyone else to make a shitty cartoon. If your that pissed about it, make your own dumb ass cartoon saying how Jews are stupid, or Americans are fat, see if we care that much.
On September 17 2009 13:48 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I honestly don't think I have anything to add or say if you can't see the difference between a tasteless joke about religion and a cartoon of them blasting the U.S. with a batch of nukes.
And if it was published by a small privately owned newspaper representing the view of 1/1000000000 inhabitants and presented in the form of a joke I don't think anyone would make a big deal out of it.
There most probably allready is/was such a cartoon which got published and most probably no one cared about.
I don't disagree with the Profs letter... The problem is, you don't know how serious he is. Chances are high that he was going over the top on behalf.
I've been reading a little bit more closely at the arguments in this thread and there are several things that I agree on. The freedom of speech is definitely correct and the professor should be able to announce his frustration with the complaint from the student union. Still, I think the way in which the professor did so was completely unwarranted. Yes, many Muslim's overreacted and a lot of what's said in the letter is probably truthful. That does not speak for a majority of the Muslims in the world though, especially American college students. And yes, there is freedom of speech in this country, but I feel that there are social dogmas that are not to be crossed. The reason this thread is split in opinion seems to be about the practicality of the letter versus the morality of the letter.
I'm not religious, I'm actually atheistic and feel that religions have a pretty bad track record in human history. I do acknowledge that religions are very crucial for some people, and an extremely important part of their lifestyle. So a simple thing like a cartoon, although it has innocuous intentions, can be highly offensive. I can completely understand why a group of students would complain; I personally get very pent up about stereotypes against my race and culture, even if they are partly true.
Nazgul pointed out that the professor's letter was maybe meant to ridicule the hypocrisy of the students, but in my eyes the students are in a different category than the Muslims that did burn flags or hate countries. The students are frustrated by stereotypes, and in return the professor smacked them with more horrifyingly insulting and derogatory remarks and so I feel his letter is unjustifiable in this regard. I can't find the protest however, but I don't think a student union from MSU would be expressing hatred towards another country rather than just annoyance. I personally believe the professor's attacks crossed a social dogma, and even though there's freedom of speech, it was totally disrespectful and ignorant.
I disagree with your assessment, Nazgul. The letter reads like the professor is a huge xenophobe (especially at MSU, which has a sizable Muslim population) and referencing those things is akin to referencing Stalin when talking to an atheist, or speaking about pedophilia to a Christian.
That said, the professor definitely shouldn't be fired and probably shouldn't be reprimanded either. You don't remove people for having differing opinions, especially on a college campus. It's not as if he made those statements during class, it was a private letter.
Also, the no cell phones is fine. Cell phones are horribly disruptive, even on vibrate, and if you allow them at some point someone is going to forget to put them on vibrate and it'll fuck up the class. I've had a professor who did grade reductions if a cell phone went off.
I had a teacher that (only once) in class started to humm( Like "EEEEEEEEEEEE") and then proceeded to pee with his pants on. But hey, he discovered some new equation or some shit that day...
Anyways before this turns into a(nother?) thread about the drawings i'd like to add that this lettter was in bad taste - just like the drawings and just like the burnings of the danish flag (Even if danes really don't care that much)...
You do however have the right to write it. And you have the right to burn our flag(or protest) - knock yourselves out, but stay away from our embasseys.
counsel you dissatisfied, aggressive, brutal, and uncivilized slave-trading Moslems to be very aware of this as you proceeded with your infantile “protests.”
It does sound ridiculous, without that sentence the letter is not bad at all.
But can't it be that by making those over the top statements he is trying to show them how ridiculous it is to judge all of Denmark over some cartoon? Just as how ridiculous it is that he is equaling these students to the deeds of other Muslims.
If you do not like the values of the West — see the 1st Amendment — you are free to leave.
What's wrong with this? If you are protesting against freedom of speech I seriously urge you not to live in a western country. Everyone is free to stick to their culture and their norms and values, but there's a few things in the western world that are simply not up for discussion. Freedom of speech and press is one of them.
people werent protesting freedom of speech at msu. Maybe I wasnt clear in that. They were protesting the drawings as "hate" speech. Kind of like what the KKK does. I dunno if you know about it since you live in Europe but when the KKK comes to towns here (specifically Lansing since we are the Capitol of Michigan) tons of people come out to protest them because of what they say. They dont protest their right to say it.
AFAIK the MSU students were not protesting the right to publish the cartoons like a majority of the people in the muslim world(those that were protesting).
people bash christians, jews and jehova witnesses/mormons etc all the time, but we cant bash the muslim religion as part of free speech? lol at that.
imo theres nothing wrong with the letter, it speaks the truth. maybe it was a little aggressive, but its fine. although the student union probably have nothing to do with the atrocities, it doesnt mean hes addressed the wrong people.
i dont see why these people protest shit like cartoons but not murders, beheadings and rape
On September 17 2009 17:08 JohnColtrane wrote: rofl...protesting cartoons
how fucking stupid can you get
imo theres nothing wrong with the letter, it speaks the truth. maybe it was a little aggressive, but its fine. although the student union probably have nothing to do with the atrocities, it doesnt mean hes addressed the wrong people.
i dont see why these people protest shit like cartoons but not murders, beheadings and rape
because for these students part of the moslem organization, they are martyrs dieing for their religion. they are doing allah's will and why criticize heroes doing gods will in your eyes? hahahaha
i know thats really bad but
it is kind of odd, why don't these reasonable muslims every fight against the crimes people who claim to be part of their culture/religion/nations commit. i mean especially about the dutch filmmaker, he makes one film decrying violence of the islamic religion and he gets murdered? no muslim spared him any tears(i remember following that)
but whatever, ive come to realize things don't change in the world. the idiots will keep staying idiots, the racists keep being racists and muslims won't ever turn their back on their own no matter how heinous their crimes.
On September 17 2009 17:08 JohnColtrane wrote: rofl...protesting cartoons
how fucking stupid can you get
imo theres nothing wrong with the letter, it speaks the truth. maybe it was a little aggressive, but its fine. although the student union probably have nothing to do with the atrocities, it doesnt mean hes addressed the wrong people.
i dont see why these people protest shit like cartoons but not murders, beheadings and rape
because for these students part of the moslem organization, they are martyrs dieing for their religion. they are doing allah's will and why criticize heroes doing gods will in your eyes? hahahaha
i know thats really bad but
it is kind of odd, why don't these reasonable muslims every fight against the crimes people who claim to be part of their culture/religion/nations commit. i mean especially about the dutch filmmaker, he makes one film decrying violence of the islamic religion and he gets murdered? no muslim spared him any tears(i remember following that)
but whatever, ive come to realize things don't change in the world. the idiots will keep staying idiots, the racists keep being racists and muslims won't ever turn their back on their own no matter how heinous their crimes.
Liberal Muslim organisations in the UK are put on tv to condemn violence and read selected antiviolence parts of the Koran every time this happens. Don't generalise them all.
On September 17 2009 17:08 JohnColtrane wrote: rofl...protesting cartoons
how fucking stupid can you get
imo theres nothing wrong with the letter, it speaks the truth. maybe it was a little aggressive, but its fine. although the student union probably have nothing to do with the atrocities, it doesnt mean hes addressed the wrong people.
i dont see why these people protest shit like cartoons but not murders, beheadings and rape
because for these students part of the moslem organization, they are martyrs dieing for their religion. they are doing allah's will and why criticize heroes doing gods will in your eyes? hahahaha
i know thats really bad but
it is kind of odd, why don't these reasonable muslims every fight against the crimes people who claim to be part of their culture/religion/nations commit. i mean especially about the dutch filmmaker, he makes one film decrying violence of the islamic religion and he gets murdered? no muslim spared him any tears(i remember following that)
but whatever, ive come to realize things don't change in the world. the idiots will keep staying idiots, the racists keep being racists and muslims won't ever turn their back on their own no matter how heinous their crimes.
Liberal Muslim organisations in the UK are put on tv to condemn violence and read selected antiviolence parts of the Koran every time this happens. Don't generalise them all.
they are few and far inbetween. more times than not, its more along the lines of the lockerbie bombing prisoner going home to a hero's welcome.
Mohammed's last words at his deathbed were "Turn the pagans (non-Muslims) out of the Arabian Peninsula."
"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."
Mohammed and the Qu'ran can say it publicly but he can't privately?
I have yet to see what exactly is "crazy" about this professor. As far as I am concerned he did what teachers do, teach.
physician, we all know that every single religion has produced nothing but evils in our world. no need to preach to the choir here about religion not being a mode of peace like a lot of people love to claim (whichever religion they are a part of)
the professors examples were 100% correct. he did go a little over the top when he was calling them basically backward barbarians, but up until that point, everything he said was trueeeeeeeee.
I think we'd all run out of breath before we exhausted the hypocrisy of major religions. To be an apologist for everyone who is for or against something would, in the end, be a futile exercise. History is full of great Christians and terrible Muslims, terrible Christians and great Muslims.
Ironically, one of the biggest problems of today is unleashed rhetoric, similar to that used by the professor. It's incendiary language like that which fuels the fires of today's divides.
On September 17 2009 17:37 GOB wrote: I think we'd all run out of breath before we exhausted the hypocrisy of major religions. To be an apologist for everyone who is for or against something would, in the end, be a futile exercise. History is full of great Christians and terrible Muslims, terrible Christians and great Muslims.
Ironically, one of the biggest problems of today is unleashed rhetoric, similar to that used by the professor. It's incendiary language like that which fuels the fires of today's divides.
i believe a bigger problem is the peoples issue with listening to other opinions. they are so devoted to one set of ideas and dont listen to reasoning, logic, facts etc. ignorant dumb people span across the globe and are becoming bigger portion of the population. i wonder how bad this world will be before we finally turn it around as a humans as a whole and try to better ourselves instead of busy fucking each other in the back.
On September 17 2009 17:08 JohnColtrane wrote: rofl...protesting cartoons
how fucking stupid can you get
imo theres nothing wrong with the letter, it speaks the truth. maybe it was a little aggressive, but its fine. although the student union probably have nothing to do with the atrocities, it doesnt mean hes addressed the wrong people.
i dont see why these people protest shit like cartoons but not murders, beheadings and rape
because for these students part of the moslem organization, they are martyrs dieing for their religion. they are doing allah's will and why criticize heroes doing gods will in your eyes? hahahaha
i know thats really bad but
it is kind of odd, why don't these reasonable muslims every fight against the crimes people who claim to be part of their culture/religion/nations commit. i mean especially about the dutch filmmaker, he makes one film decrying violence of the islamic religion and he gets murdered? no muslim spared him any tears(i remember following that)
but whatever, ive come to realize things don't change in the world. the idiots will keep staying idiots, the racists keep being racists and muslims won't ever turn their back on their own no matter how heinous their crimes.
Liberal Muslim organisations in the UK are put on tv to condemn violence and read selected antiviolence parts of the Koran every time this happens. Don't generalise them all.
they are few and far inbetween. more times than not, its more along the lines of the lockerbie bombing prisoner going home to a hero's welcome.
Obv the ones outside the Western world will be less Westernized. You can't judge them from the actions of Libyans. A lot of Muslims in Britain, particularly second and third generation Muslims take an extremely literal reading of the Koran that is, in practice, virtually indistinguishable from the stance a liberal Christian would take.
On September 17 2009 17:37 GOB wrote: I think we'd all run out of breath before we exhausted the hypocrisy of major religions. To be an apologist for everyone who is for or against something would, in the end, be a futile exercise. History is full of great Christians and terrible Muslims, terrible Christians and great Muslims.
Ironically, one of the biggest problems of today is unleashed rhetoric, similar to that used by the professor. It's incendiary language like that which fuels the fires of today's divides.
i believe a bigger problem is the peoples issue with listening to other opinions. they are so devoted to one set of ideas and dont listen to reasoning, logic, facts etc. ignorant dumb people span across the globe and are becoming bigger portion of the population. i wonder how bad this world will be before we finally turn it around as a humans as a whole and try to better ourselves instead of busy fucking each other in the back.
I understand where you're coming from. One of the most frightening revelations I've had is that if you take the person of the most average intellect, half the world is still below that line.
On September 17 2009 17:32 Physician wrote: Mohammed's last words at his deathbed were "Turn the pagans (non-Muslims) out of the Arabian Peninsula."
"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."
Mohammed and the Qu'ran can say it publicly but he can't privately?
I have yet to see what exactly is "crazy" about this professor. As far as I am concerned he did what teachers do, teach.
Unless he was satirising freedom of speech to make an ironic point he was just being a bigot. The whole "if you don't like it you can go home" speech is wrong, especially given how a lot of Muslims are born in the Western world and associate culturally with it. Judging a whole religion by the actions of extremists is retarded. On a similar note, judging the practice of a religion in the 21st Century by religious texts is pretty retarded too. All you've proved was that Muhammad was a violent guy, we knew that already, we got that about the time when he unified Arabia by force. You've yet to make the leap to that making Islam today violent or Muslims violent. Extremists are violent. Nationalists are violent. Muslims can be violent or non violent depending on whether they are inclined to be violent. You won't see someone who is a pacifist by inclination but by virtue of their religion decide they have to go out and kill the infidels.
On September 17 2009 17:37 GOB wrote: I think we'd all run out of breath before we exhausted the hypocrisy of major religions. To be an apologist for everyone who is for or against something would, in the end, be a futile exercise. History is full of great Christians and terrible Muslims, terrible Christians and great Muslims.
Ironically, one of the biggest problems of today is unleashed rhetoric, similar to that used by the professor. It's incendiary language like that which fuels the fires of today's divides.
i believe a bigger problem is the peoples issue with listening to other opinions. they are so devoted to one set of ideas and dont listen to reasoning, logic, facts etc. ignorant dumb people span across the globe and are becoming bigger portion of the population. i wonder how bad this world will be before we finally turn it around as a humans as a whole and try to better ourselves instead of busy fucking each other in the back.
I understand where you're coming from. One of the most frightening revelations I've had is that if you take the person of the most average intellect, half the world is still below that line.
i know what you mean. i recently met a dumb jew, didnt know they existed outside of the rabbi line haha. but yeah, george carlin had a great line about how dumb people are..
“Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.”
On September 17 2009 17:51 daz wrote: am i a bad person because i agree with him?
no you are not. because he is 100% correct in his examples, his right to protest another protest, and the immigrants are free to choose to accept that everyone has a right to speak their minds or go back to their home country which is so much more "tolerant" of their beliefs (of course this doesnt apply if you are gay, atheist or a woman)
Im not sure if everyone here really knows the story about the cartoons. Originally they were intended for a childrensbook but noone would make the illustrations for it. After hearing this the newspaper "Jyllandsposten" hired some journalists to make some random drawings of muhammed so that people wouldnt be so silly as to not make illustrations in a childrensbook. You know the rest.
But honestly, this was a student organisation. These people have something in common and they make an organisation so that they can hang out together. These kids only protested becourse other muslims did, and that makes them feel like muslims, thats all there is to it. Alot of people in the middle east have a completely different background than us and dont nessesarily have an education. These people will do as they are told by their religion, there is nothing more to it.
I think that you guys are really stupid in the way you view this. All the attacks that have originated from arabic people come from a pretty small group of people NOT all muslims!
These cartoons attacked EVERY SINGLE MUSLIM in the world! That is the difference.
Telling these kids that what they are doing is stupid becourse some people far away do stupid shit and have their religion in common is the most stupid and racist thing ive ever heard. This kind of anti-religion is really uneducated, im suprised that hes allowed to be a proffesor.
On September 17 2009 17:51 daz wrote: am i a bad person because i agree with him?
no you are not. because he is 100% correct in his examples, his right to protest another protest, and the immigrants are free to choose to accept that everyone has a right to speak their minds or go back to their home country which is so much more "tolerant" of their beliefs (of course this doesnt apply if you are gay, atheist or a woman)
What about American Muslims? Edit: In fact, I find the idea of saying "if you don't like it you can go home" conceptually abhorrent. It's basically saying "you're an outsider, we don't like your kind here, you should go be with your own kind because it's us vs them and you're not one of us". It's a really polarising thing where there really is no need for polarisation. Imagine in a school prayer debate if you said "This is America, we have separation of Church and State and if you don't like it you and your whole Papist family can piss off back to Ireland or wherever the fuck you came from." to someone whose family had been in the United States since the 1850s when they immigrated from France. It's just retarded.
On September 17 2009 18:16 JohnColtrane wrote: well i think its pretty fucking stupid if you protest simply because some else does it
you expect much more out of any fool who blindly follows a religion who claims their god is omnipotent and you are guaranteed to go to heaven or whatever by either giving away your money to some diety, killing your way in(look at Physicians post on top of page 5) or following 10 rules?
you sir, are asking too much of these thick headed people.
On September 17 2009 17:51 daz wrote: am i a bad person because i agree with him?
no you are not. because he is 100% correct in his examples, his right to protest another protest, and the immigrants are free to choose to accept that everyone has a right to speak their minds or go back to their home country which is so much more "tolerant" of their beliefs (of course this doesnt apply if you are gay, atheist or a woman)
What about American Muslims?
oh like the american muslims who were supposedly moderate and successful in buffalo ny who started a news station to speak to the masses that islam is not a religion of violence and tried to fight the stereotype. the husband proceeded to behead his wife because she wanted a divorce and put a restraining order on his ass. so much for breaking the stereotype that educated muslims in the west arent backwards like those in their home country. doesnt matter what country you live in, they adhere to their beliefs. of course this doesn't apply if they drop their religion.
On September 17 2009 17:51 daz wrote: am i a bad person because i agree with him?
no you are not. because he is 100% correct in his examples, his right to protest another protest, and the immigrants are free to choose to accept that everyone has a right to speak their minds or go back to their home country which is so much more "tolerant" of their beliefs (of course this doesnt apply if you are gay, atheist or a woman)
What about American Muslims?
oh like the american muslims who were supposedly moderate and successful in buffalo ny who started a news station to speak to the masses that islam is not a religion of violence and tried to fight the stereotype. the husband proceeded to behead his wife because she wanted a divorce and put a restraining order on his ass. so much for breaking the stereotype that educated muslims in the west arent backwards like those in their home country. doesnt matter what country you live in, they adhere to their beliefs. of course this doesn't apply if they drop their religion.
Oh. My bad. American Muslims generally behead their wives. Got it. Well at least that problem is self resolving, they'll not have children and will have trouble getting married so they'll die out soon. If only we can find a way of stopping them raping our pure white women.
Also lol, like those in their home country? My point was Muslims for whom America is their home country. lol You really are showing yourself to be quite a bigot.
On September 17 2009 18:11 Kong John wrote: Im not sure if everyone here really knows the story about the cartoons. Originally they were intended for a childrensbook but noone would make the illustrations for it. After hearing this the newspaper "Jyllandsposten" hired some journalists to make some random drawings of muhammed so that people wouldnt be so silly as to not make illustrations in a childrensbook. You know the rest.
But honestly, this was a student organisation. These people have something in common and they make an organisation so that they can hang out together. These kids only protested becourse other muslims did, and that makes them feel like muslims, thats all there is to it. Alot of people in the middle east have a completely different background than us and dont nessesarily have an education. These people will do as they are told by their religion, there is nothing more to it.
I think that you guys are really stupid in the way you view this. All the attacks that have originated from arabic people come from a pretty small group of people NOT all muslims!
These cartoons attacked EVERY SINGLE MUSLIM in the world! That is the difference.
Telling these kids that what they are doing is stupid becourse some people far away do stupid shit and have their religion in common is the most stupid and racist thing ive ever heard. This kind of anti-religion is really uneducated, im suprised that hes allowed to be a proffesor.
edit: some typos
Anything anti-religion is the exact opposite of stupid by definition. oh and please do explain how cartoons can attack people. It's seriously a huge fucking problem that people in western countries have to be afraid of what they say about a backwards, violent, religion in fear of their lives, and a lot of people even support this lunacy. I know these guys are just a student group, but by protesting these cartoons they are intentionally associating themselves with the same attitude of those groups of people who are issuing death threats and actually following up with them. And besides, just because they are a student group doesn't necessarily mean they are all liberal and non-violent, I mean you would expect those muslims who have emigrated to Denmark or France or whatever western country to also be liberal and civilized people, seeing as how they were smart enough to want to leave the countries that are fucked up due to their backward beliefs, but then a cartoon gets published and next thing you know there's riots, death threats and murders.
On September 17 2009 17:51 daz wrote: am i a bad person because i agree with him?
no you are not. because he is 100% correct in his examples, his right to protest another protest, and the immigrants are free to choose to accept that everyone has a right to speak their minds or go back to their home country which is so much more "tolerant" of their beliefs (of course this doesnt apply if you are gay, atheist or a woman)
What about American Muslims?
oh like the american muslims who were supposedly moderate and successful in buffalo ny who started a news station to speak to the masses that islam is not a religion of violence and tried to fight the stereotype. the husband proceeded to behead his wife because she wanted a divorce and put a restraining order on his ass. so much for breaking the stereotype that educated muslims in the west arent backwards like those in their home country. doesnt matter what country you live in, they adhere to their beliefs. of course this doesn't apply if they drop their religion.
Oh. My bad. American Muslims generally behead their wives. Got it. Well at least that problem is self resolving, they'll not have children and will have trouble getting married so they'll die out soon. If only we can find a way of stopping them raping our pure white women.
no need to worry, the xenophobic nature of the people of this country will insure that white women will avoid them like the plague. gotta love christianity no? not to mention our bigoted police force and BAM, no more problems.
actually funny story on the bigoted police, i was at a conference in boston, ma and there was an arab guy talking on his cellphone there. the whole time, he was being tailed by some dumb white cop who kept reporting into his microphone about suspicious behavior and giving the arab dirty looks. in boston no less!!
On September 17 2009 17:32 Physician wrote: Mohammed's last words at his deathbed were "Turn the pagans (non-Muslims) out of the Arabian Peninsula."
"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."
Mohammed and the Qu'ran can say it publicly but he can't privately?
I have yet to see what exactly is "crazy" about this professor. As far as I am concerned he did what teachers do, teach.
Unless he was satirising freedom of speech to make an ironic point he was just being a bigot. The whole "if you don't like it you can go home" speech is wrong, especially given how a lot of Muslims are born in the Western world and associate culturally with it. Judging a whole religion by the actions of extremists is retarded. On a similar note, judging the practice of a religion in the 21st Century by religious texts is pretty retarded too. All you've proved was that Muhammad was a violent guy, we knew that already, we got that about the time when he unified Arabia by force. You've yet to make the leap to that making Islam today violent or Muslims violent. Extremists are violent. Nationalists are violent. Muslims can be violent or non violent depending on whether they are inclined to be violent. You won't see someone who is a pacifist by inclination but by virtue of their religion decide they have to go out and kill the infidels.
but dont muslims do the same thing to the west, generalizing whole cultures on the actions of one cartoon writer?
On September 17 2009 18:21 Kwark wrote: What about American Muslims?
backwards like those in their home country
Lol bigotry. Silly American. Quit being so backwards.
dont you people over the pond hates the jews with a passion? always had antisemitism run wild over there no?
We did have a problem with it for a while but some guy cleaned it up at the source about 60 years ago.
just like how racism doesnt exist over here for black and white relationships. election of obama surely cleared up any arguments that race issues have dissolved into thin air in a span of a couple generations.
By the way, were you seriously offering the example of one crazy guy who was pissed off his wife left him as evidence against an entire group? Because you are aware that one guy killing his wife when she left him doesn't make all American Muslims culturally the same as Afghan tribesmen. Also if we take a control group of American atheists they do, on occasion, kill their wives when they leave them. I guess the core of my question is, are you a racist because you believe all Muslims behead their wives, an idiot because you believe one incident is a good statistical sample or just wrong?
On September 17 2009 17:32 Physician wrote: Mohammed's last words at his deathbed were "Turn the pagans (non-Muslims) out of the Arabian Peninsula."
"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."
Mohammed and the Qu'ran can say it publicly but he can't privately?
I have yet to see what exactly is "crazy" about this professor. As far as I am concerned he did what teachers do, teach.
Unless he was satirising freedom of speech to make an ironic point he was just being a bigot. The whole "if you don't like it you can go home" speech is wrong, especially given how a lot of Muslims are born in the Western world and associate culturally with it. Judging a whole religion by the actions of extremists is retarded. On a similar note, judging the practice of a religion in the 21st Century by religious texts is pretty retarded too. All you've proved was that Muhammad was a violent guy, we knew that already, we got that about the time when he unified Arabia by force. You've yet to make the leap to that making Islam today violent or Muslims violent. Extremists are violent. Nationalists are violent. Muslims can be violent or non violent depending on whether they are inclined to be violent. You won't see someone who is a pacifist by inclination but by virtue of their religion decide they have to go out and kill the infidels.
but dont muslims do the same thing to the west, generalizing whole cultures on the actions of one cartoon writer?
And they're retarded. So is Physician for doing it. So are you. Any questions?
It's not an us vs them thing. I'm not picking the side of the Arabs against America. You're both stupid.
the only thing i cant stand is people doing fucked up shit in the name of religion, or because of what their religion is telling them to do
*edit* and when did i start insulting you? is that what you turn to when you cant get a point across? start hurling insults at the other person. should i call you a retard for taking this shit that doesnt affect us at all so dearly to your heart?
I went to school with a second gen Muslim guy. He's parents were Bangladeshi but he was as English as they come. He was also gay, intellectual and is now studying Engineering at University. It pisses me off when people insist the religion surpasses any cultural identity a person may have. It also pisses me off when people suggest the religion means they have a different home country to the one they culturally associate with. And it pisses me off when people suggest religion may make people act in a way they were otherwise not inclined to do. Religion is an excuse. Nothing more. My friend doesn't protest retarded shit because it's retarded and being a well educated western individual he knows its retarded. If I told him to go home he'd point out he was born 20 miles from where I was born. If I told him that Islam hates gays he'd tell me that 7th Century Arabia hated gays and that his interpretation of his religion conformed to his British cultural identity.
Religion means fuck all. Bigots will be bigots. Retards will be retards. Racists will be racists. Homophobes will be homophobes. And effigy/flag salesmen will whip up shit about anything they can think of to get sales.
On September 17 2009 18:46 piratebay wrote: the only thing i cant stand is people doing fucked up shit in the name of religion, or because of what their religion is telling them to do
*edit* and when did i start insulting you? is that what you turn to when you cant get a point across? start hurling insults at the other person. should i call you a retard for taking this shit that doesnt affect us at all so dearly to your heart?
I didn't insult you. I gave you options. You could admit that your anecdotal evidence was utterly meaningless or you could stand by anecdotal evidence as a judgment against a people and face the consequences, which would be insults. Your call.
Edit: Actually, I did call you retarded once. In my defence, I stand by that. You were going "but don't they do really stupid stuff too" as a defence for your own stupid actions. Usually people grow out of that.
On September 17 2009 18:11 Kong John wrote: Im not sure if everyone here really knows the story about the cartoons. Originally they were intended for a childrensbook but noone would make the illustrations for it. After hearing this the newspaper "Jyllandsposten" hired some journalists to make some random drawings of muhammed so that people wouldnt be so silly as to not make illustrations in a childrensbook. You know the rest.
But honestly, this was a student organisation. These people have something in common and they make an organisation so that they can hang out together. These kids only protested becourse other muslims did, and that makes them feel like muslims, thats all there is to it. Alot of people in the middle east have a completely different background than us and dont nessesarily have an education. These people will do as they are told by their religion, there is nothing more to it.
I think that you guys are really stupid in the way you view this. All the attacks that have originated from arabic people come from a pretty small group of people NOT all muslims!
These cartoons attacked EVERY SINGLE MUSLIM in the world! That is the difference.
Telling these kids that what they are doing is stupid becourse some people far away do stupid shit and have their religion in common is the most stupid and racist thing ive ever heard. This kind of anti-religion is really uneducated, im suprised that hes allowed to be a proffesor.
edit: some typos
Anything anti-religion is the exact opposite of stupid by definition. oh and please do explain how cartoons can attack people. It's seriously a huge fucking problem that people in western countries have to be afraid of what they say about a backwards, violent, religion in fear of their lives, and a lot of people even support this lunacy. I know these guys are just a student group, but by protesting these cartoons they are intentionally associating themselves with the same attitude of those groups of people who are issuing death threats and actually following up with them. And besides, just because they are a student group doesn't necessarily mean they are all liberal and non-violent, I mean you would expect those muslims who have emigrated to Denmark or France or whatever western country to also be liberal and civilized people, seeing as how they were smart enough to want to leave the countries that are fucked up due to their backward beliefs, but then a cartoon gets published and next thing you know there's riots, death threats and murders.
/end rant
You know, most emigrants with arab background who have come to Denmark have either come due to our campaign in the seventies about comeing to Denmark and work. Or they are fugitives. Atleast half the muslims in Denmark are fugitives from Iran, Irak or Kurdistan.
There is also nothing stupid about having a religion. Being an atheist doesent make you smart by defenition, if you throw up the word religous in a wordbook i highly doubt it says "stupid person". Its just a life filosofi, and alot of people live very happy lives due to it. Science hasent proven anything, its just theories about how things probably are. Saying that your dumb if your not an atheist is just nonreligous zealotry. You have nothing that backs this claim.
Protesting towards people who offended you brings you in the same camp as other people who have been offended aswell? I dont really follow you there, if i say im a christian does that mean that muslims can bash on me becourse of the crusades? Does this mean that im in assosiated with every christian cult that i dont approve of?
Also, there hasent happened anything to Denmark as a country from making the drawings. Yes, some random people send threatning letters and there was flagburning. I dont really see how this means that all muslims are stupid or whatever. People are allowed to protest all they want if they are offended and what the arabs did was all fine imo. What did they do that crossed the line? If we make cartoons making fun of their religion they can burn our flag all they want.
In case you missed it. It is illegal to draw living beings in islam, and you CAN NOT draw holy beings. This is part of their religion and this is why they got so offended.
On September 17 2009 19:08 Kong John wrote: Also, there hasent happened anything to Denmark as a country from making the drawings. Yes, some random people send threatning letters and there was flagburning. I dont really see how this means that all muslims are stupid or whatever. People are allowed to protest all they want if they are offended and what the arabs did was all fine imo. What did they do that crossed the line?
On September 17 2009 18:46 piratebay wrote: the only thing i cant stand is people doing fucked up shit in the name of religion, or because of what their religion is telling them to do
*edit* and when did i start insulting you? is that what you turn to when you cant get a point across? start hurling insults at the other person. should i call you a retard for taking this shit that doesnt affect us at all so dearly to your heart?
I didn't insult you. I gave you options. You could admit that your anecdotal evidence was utterly meaningless or you could stand by anecdotal evidence as a judgment against a people and face the consequences, which would be insults. Your call.
calling me a backwards american is. before your edit, all your post said was american muslims? i ran with it with no other guidelines set out.
of course that was the weakest sort of evidence given out, anybody could figure that out (maybe except the romanians). but the point of the matter is that besides the remark about the professor saying that they should go back to their countries than assimilate, it was pretty damn accurate.
but the example of your friend having a reasonable response to the idiocy of the extremists, it works and all. however, you cant deny how unreasonable the overall response of people across the globe react to slight criticisms that people are freely entitled to make such as the comic example. and you have the professor say his two cents in a private email and the people exercising their right of free speech are demanding his suspension or reprimand for speaking his mind. it does make no sense
On September 17 2009 18:11 Kong John wrote: Im not sure if everyone here really knows the story about the cartoons. Originally they were intended for a childrensbook but noone would make the illustrations for it. After hearing this the newspaper "Jyllandsposten" hired some journalists to make some random drawings of muhammed so that people wouldnt be so silly as to not make illustrations in a childrensbook. You know the rest.
But honestly, this was a student organisation. These people have something in common and they make an organisation so that they can hang out together. These kids only protested becourse other muslims did, and that makes them feel like muslims, thats all there is to it. Alot of people in the middle east have a completely different background than us and dont nessesarily have an education. These people will do as they are told by their religion, there is nothing more to it.
I think that you guys are really stupid in the way you view this. All the attacks that have originated from arabic people come from a pretty small group of people NOT all muslims!
These cartoons attacked EVERY SINGLE MUSLIM in the world! That is the difference.
Telling these kids that what they are doing is stupid becourse some people far away do stupid shit and have their religion in common is the most stupid and racist thing ive ever heard. This kind of anti-religion is really uneducated, im suprised that hes allowed to be a proffesor.
edit: some typos
Anything anti-religion is the exact opposite of stupid by definition. oh and please do explain how cartoons can attack people. It's seriously a huge fucking problem that people in western countries have to be afraid of what they say about a backwards, violent, religion in fear of their lives, and a lot of people even support this lunacy. I know these guys are just a student group, but by protesting these cartoons they are intentionally associating themselves with the same attitude of those groups of people who are issuing death threats and actually following up with them. And besides, just because they are a student group doesn't necessarily mean they are all liberal and non-violent, I mean you would expect those muslims who have emigrated to Denmark or France or whatever western country to also be liberal and civilized people, seeing as how they were smart enough to want to leave the countries that are fucked up due to their backward beliefs, but then a cartoon gets published and next thing you know there's riots, death threats and murders.
/end rant
You know, most emigrants with arab background who have come to Denmark have either come due to our campaign in the seventies about comeing to Denmark and work. Or they are fugitives. Atleast half the muslims in Denmark are fugitives from Iran, Irak or Kurdistan.
There is also nothing stupid about having a religion. Being an atheist doesent make you smart by defenition, if you throw up the word religous in a wordbook i highly doubt it says "stupid person". Its just a life filosofi, and alot of people live very happy lives due to it. Science hasent proven anything, its just theories about how things probably are. Saying that your dumb if your not an atheist is just nonreligous zealotry. You have nothing that backs this claim.
Protesting towards people who offended you brings you in the same camp as other people who have been offended aswell? I dont really follow you there, if i say im a christian does that mean that muslims can bash on me becourse of the crusades? Does this mean that im in assosiated with every christian cult that i dont approve of?
Also, there hasent happened anything to Denmark as a country from making the drawings. Yes, some random people send threatning letters and there was flagburning. I dont really see how this means that all muslims are stupid or whatever. People are allowed to protest all they want if they are offended and what the arabs did was all fine imo. What did they do that crossed the line? If we make cartoons making fun of their religion they can burn our flag all they want.
In case you missed it. It is illegal to draw living beings in islam, and you CAN NOT draw holy beings. This is part of their religion and this is why they got so offended.
that doesnt make it any less retarded and does not give them justification for rioting
On September 17 2009 18:11 Kong John wrote: Im not sure if everyone here really knows the story about the cartoons. Originally they were intended for a childrensbook but noone would make the illustrations for it. After hearing this the newspaper "Jyllandsposten" hired some journalists to make some random drawings of muhammed so that people wouldnt be so silly as to not make illustrations in a childrensbook. You know the rest.
But honestly, this was a student organisation. These people have something in common and they make an organisation so that they can hang out together. These kids only protested becourse other muslims did, and that makes them feel like muslims, thats all there is to it. Alot of people in the middle east have a completely different background than us and dont nessesarily have an education. These people will do as they are told by their religion, there is nothing more to it.
I think that you guys are really stupid in the way you view this. All the attacks that have originated from arabic people come from a pretty small group of people NOT all muslims!
These cartoons attacked EVERY SINGLE MUSLIM in the world! That is the difference.
Telling these kids that what they are doing is stupid becourse some people far away do stupid shit and have their religion in common is the most stupid and racist thing ive ever heard. This kind of anti-religion is really uneducated, im suprised that hes allowed to be a proffesor.
edit: some typos
Anything anti-religion is the exact opposite of stupid by definition. oh and please do explain how cartoons can attack people. It's seriously a huge fucking problem that people in western countries have to be afraid of what they say about a backwards, violent, religion in fear of their lives, and a lot of people even support this lunacy. I know these guys are just a student group, but by protesting these cartoons they are intentionally associating themselves with the same attitude of those groups of people who are issuing death threats and actually following up with them. And besides, just because they are a student group doesn't necessarily mean they are all liberal and non-violent, I mean you would expect those muslims who have emigrated to Denmark or France or whatever western country to also be liberal and civilized people, seeing as how they were smart enough to want to leave the countries that are fucked up due to their backward beliefs, but then a cartoon gets published and next thing you know there's riots, death threats and murders.
/end rant
You know, most emigrants with arab background who have come to Denmark have either come due to our campaign in the seventies about comeing to Denmark and work. Or they are fugitives. Atleast half the muslims in Denmark are fugitives from Iran, Irak or Kurdistan.
There is also nothing stupid about having a religion. Being an atheist doesent make you smart by defenition, if you throw up the word religous in a wordbook i highly doubt it says "stupid person". Its just a life filosofi, and alot of people live very happy lives due to it. Science hasent proven anything, its just theories about how things probably are. Saying that your dumb if your not an atheist is just nonreligous zealotry. You have nothing that backs this claim.
Protesting towards people who offended you brings you in the same camp as other people who have been offended aswell? I dont really follow you there, if i say im a christian does that mean that muslims can bash on me becourse of the crusades? Does this mean that im in assosiated with every christian cult that i dont approve of?
Also, there hasent happened anything to Denmark as a country from making the drawings. Yes, some random people send threatning letters and there was flagburning. I dont really see how this means that all muslims are stupid or whatever. People are allowed to protest all they want if they are offended and what the arabs did was all fine imo. What did they do that crossed the line? If we make cartoons making fun of their religion they can burn our flag all they want.
In case you missed it. It is illegal to draw living beings in islam, and you CAN NOT draw holy beings. This is part of their religion and this is why they got so offended.
werent embasies burned and people attacked over the controversy OF POLITICAL CARTOONS? does that not count as crossing the line over a simple political cartoon? dont see obama burning down locations of opponents due to political cartoons insulting him
On September 17 2009 18:46 piratebay wrote: the only thing i cant stand is people doing fucked up shit in the name of religion, or because of what their religion is telling them to do
*edit* and when did i start insulting you? is that what you turn to when you cant get a point across? start hurling insults at the other person. should i call you a retard for taking this shit that doesnt affect us at all so dearly to your heart?
I didn't insult you. I gave you options. You could admit that your anecdotal evidence was utterly meaningless or you could stand by anecdotal evidence as a judgment against a people and face the consequences, which would be insults. Your call.
calling me a backwards american is. before your edit, all your post said was american muslims? i ran with it with no other guidelines set out.
Lol. I was parodying your post. You said American Muslims come from a backwards homeland. I pointed out this meant America was backwards. There's a difference between insult and parody. You called yourself a backwards American, I just pointed it out.
On September 17 2009 18:46 piratebay wrote: the only thing i cant stand is people doing fucked up shit in the name of religion, or because of what their religion is telling them to do
*edit* and when did i start insulting you? is that what you turn to when you cant get a point across? start hurling insults at the other person. should i call you a retard for taking this shit that doesnt affect us at all so dearly to your heart?
I didn't insult you. I gave you options. You could admit that your anecdotal evidence was utterly meaningless or you could stand by anecdotal evidence as a judgment against a people and face the consequences, which would be insults. Your call.
calling me a backwards american is. before your edit, all your post said was american muslims? i ran with it with no other guidelines set out.
Lol. I was parodying your post. You said American Muslims come from a backwards homeland. I pointed out this meant America was backwards. There's a difference between insult and parody. You called yourself a backwards American, I just pointed it out.
cant expect much else from the country probably the most responsible for all the shit in the middle east by imperializing the area for their own good. i wont say the US isnt innocent but our dabbling in the region came much after europe got through antagonizing them with the west.
lol taking my sentence out of context to imply an insult. the professor had every right to say what he did, he is correct in saying they could get used to free speech or go back, up to them. freedom of speech, he can say nething he wants. cant expect much though from someone who can only fling insults whether they be stated outright or not.
On September 17 2009 18:46 piratebay wrote: the only thing i cant stand is people doing fucked up shit in the name of religion, or because of what their religion is telling them to do
*edit* and when did i start insulting you? is that what you turn to when you cant get a point across? start hurling insults at the other person. should i call you a retard for taking this shit that doesnt affect us at all so dearly to your heart?
I didn't insult you. I gave you options. You could admit that your anecdotal evidence was utterly meaningless or you could stand by anecdotal evidence as a judgment against a people and face the consequences, which would be insults. Your call.
calling me a backwards american is. before your edit, all your post said was american muslims? i ran with it with no other guidelines set out.
Lol. I was parodying your post. You said American Muslims come from a backwards homeland. I pointed out this meant America was backwards. There's a difference between insult and parody. You called yourself a backwards American, I just pointed it out.
the muslim in question said something along the lines of fighting the stereotype that his people were barbaric, i was just restating his statement. oh yeah, they were immigrants so i guess their home country was backwards? you are commenting on something you havent even read about. smart.
*edit* pakistani immigrants in america doesnt equate american muslims. that sir is an insult since there is no correlation that these people are from my country.
On September 17 2009 18:46 piratebay wrote: the only thing i cant stand is people doing fucked up shit in the name of religion, or because of what their religion is telling them to do
*edit* and when did i start insulting you? is that what you turn to when you cant get a point across? start hurling insults at the other person. should i call you a retard for taking this shit that doesnt affect us at all so dearly to your heart?
I didn't insult you. I gave you options. You could admit that your anecdotal evidence was utterly meaningless or you could stand by anecdotal evidence as a judgment against a people and face the consequences, which would be insults. Your call.
calling me a backwards american is. before your edit, all your post said was american muslims? i ran with it with no other guidelines set out.
Lol. I was parodying your post. You said American Muslims come from a backwards homeland. I pointed out this meant America was backwards. There's a difference between insult and parody. You called yourself a backwards American, I just pointed it out.
cant expect much else from the country probably the most responsible for all the shit in the middle east by imperializing the area for their own good. i wont say the US isnt innocent but our dabbling in the region came much after europe got through antagonizing them with the west.
lol taking my sentence out of context to imply an insult. the professor had every right to say what he did, he is correct in saying they could get used to free speech or go back, up to them. freedom of speech, he can say nething he wants. cant expect much though from someone who can only fling insults whether they be stated outright or not.
Yeah well you personally killed off the American Indians and took their land... Fancy coming back to the adults table and acting like a real person?
Written bullshit will be exploited, no matter the 100 sentences around.
You wrote something stupid, maybe intentional maybe not, it got called. Welcome to the internet, now stop acting like a little baby.
Btw:
just like how racism doesnt exist over here for black and white relationships. election of obama surely cleared up any arguments that race issues have dissolved into thin air in a span of a couple generations.
Yeah, dream on. The majority of our population is not racist anymore. Saying race is no longer an issue is at least a *little* stretch.
just like how racism doesnt exist over here for black and white relationships. election of obama surely cleared up any arguments that race issues have dissolved into thin air in a span of a couple generations.
Yeah, dream on. The majority of our population is not racist anymore. Saying race is no longer an issue is at least a *little* stretch.
majority of your population? wasnt it just a few years back that immigrants in switzerland were complaining of the forced integration that their children were forced through by living there? where do you get the idea that most people aren't racists anymore? how many people have you met and got to know for a fact that they aren't racists at hearts? that is just hopes and dreams, and the reality is people are hell of alot worse than that. we all have prejudices and it wont dissapear in half a century.
*edit* you sure can't get sarcasm even if it hit you in the face for that quote. maybe you moved to switzerland from romania? they are part of the EU too now right
Protesting about freedom of speech, the very right that allows you to protest. I can only laugh.
Nazgul, what is wrong with saying that if you don't like the American values, you are free to leave? It doesn't matter if your family has lived in America for generations, if you don't share the basic values, you don't belong! Some things are cornerstones in modern society, and are just not up for debate.
On September 17 2009 19:50 Velr wrote: Written bullshit will be exploited, no matter the 100 sentences around.
You wrote something stupid, maybe intentional maybe not, it got called. Welcome to the internet, now stop acting like a little baby.
Btw:
just like how racism doesnt exist over here for black and white relationships. election of obama surely cleared up any arguments that race issues have dissolved into thin air in a span of a couple generations.
Yeah, dream on. The majority of our population is not racist anymore. Saying race is no longer an issue is at least a *little* stretch.
majority of your population? wasnt it just a few years back that immigrants in switzerland were complaining of the forced integration that their children were forced through by living there? where do you get the idea that most people aren't racists anymore? how many people have you met and got to know for a fact that they aren't racists at hearts? that is just hopes and dreams, and the reality is people are hell of alot worse than that. we all have prejudices and it wont dissapear in half a century.
*edit* you sure can't get sarcasm even if it hit you in the face for that quote. maybe you moved to switzerland from romania? they are part of the EU too now right
On September 17 2009 19:50 Velr wrote: Written bullshit will be exploited, no matter the 100 sentences around.
You wrote something stupid, maybe intentional maybe not, it got called. Welcome to the internet, now stop acting like a little baby.
Btw:
just like how racism doesnt exist over here for black and white relationships. election of obama surely cleared up any arguments that race issues have dissolved into thin air in a span of a couple generations.
Yeah, dream on. The majority of our population is not racist anymore. Saying race is no longer an issue is at least a *little* stretch.
majority of your population? wasnt it just a few years back that immigrants in switzerland were complaining of the forced integration that their children were forced through by living there? where do you get the idea that most people aren't racists anymore? how many people have you met and got to know for a fact that they aren't racists at hearts? that is just hopes and dreams, and the reality is people are hell of alot worse than that. we all have prejudices and it wont dissapear in half a century.
*edit* you sure can't get sarcasm even if it hit you in the face for that quote. maybe you moved to switzerland from romania? they are part of the EU too now right
Switzerland isn't in the EU lol.
but they are racist. why else would the UN and amnesty international have an eye out on them for the rise of xenophobia and racism.
*edit* velr stating that the majority of the population not being racists is quite a stretch
On September 17 2009 19:50 Velr wrote: Written bullshit will be exploited, no matter the 100 sentences around.
You wrote something stupid, maybe intentional maybe not, it got called. Welcome to the internet, now stop acting like a little baby.
Btw:
just like how racism doesnt exist over here for black and white relationships. election of obama surely cleared up any arguments that race issues have dissolved into thin air in a span of a couple generations.
Yeah, dream on. The majority of your population is not racist anymore. Saying race is no longer an issue is at least a *little* stretch.
majority of your population? wasnt it just a few years back that immigrants in switzerland were complaining of the forced integration that their children were forced through by living there? where do you get the idea that most people aren't racists anymore? how many people have you met and got to know for a fact that they aren't racists at hearts? that is just hopes and dreams, and the reality is people are hell of alot worse than that. we all have prejudices and it wont dissapear in half a century.
*edit* you sure can't get sarcasm even if it hit you in the face for that quote. maybe you moved to switzerland from romania? they are part of the EU too now right
Was a typo, should mean "YOUR" not "OUR" stupid typo, sorry. I wouldn't say something like that about switzerland, we got our own fair share of *swiss flavored rednecks/hillbillys*.
Switzerland isn't in the EU.
One political party in Switzerland has racial tendencies or at least uses populist messages and fear mongering. Call them right wing republicans (- the church thing) and you get the basic idea.
I don't really know what you mean by *forced* immigration.
On September 17 2009 19:50 Velr wrote: Written bullshit will be exploited, no matter the 100 sentences around.
You wrote something stupid, maybe intentional maybe not, it got called. Welcome to the internet, now stop acting like a little baby.
Btw:
just like how racism doesnt exist over here for black and white relationships. election of obama surely cleared up any arguments that race issues have dissolved into thin air in a span of a couple generations.
Yeah, dream on. The majority of our population is not racist anymore. Saying race is no longer an issue is at least a *little* stretch.
majority of your population? wasnt it just a few years back that immigrants in switzerland were complaining of the forced integration that their children were forced through by living there? where do you get the idea that most people aren't racists anymore? how many people have you met and got to know for a fact that they aren't racists at hearts? that is just hopes and dreams, and the reality is people are hell of alot worse than that. we all have prejudices and it wont dissapear in half a century.
*edit* you sure can't get sarcasm even if it hit you in the face for that quote. maybe you moved to switzerland from romania? they are part of the EU too now right
Switzerland isn't in the EU lol.
but they are racist. why else would the UN and amnesty international have an eye out on them for the rise of xenophobia and racism.
Smoothly glossing over the bit where you display ignorance about the world... I think you got away with it. Not sure anyone noticed your mistake.
On September 17 2009 19:50 Velr wrote: Written bullshit will be exploited, no matter the 100 sentences around.
You wrote something stupid, maybe intentional maybe not, it got called. Welcome to the internet, now stop acting like a little baby.
Btw:
just like how racism doesnt exist over here for black and white relationships. election of obama surely cleared up any arguments that race issues have dissolved into thin air in a span of a couple generations.
Yeah, dream on. The majority of your population is not racist anymore. Saying race is no longer an issue is at least a *little* stretch.
majority of your population? wasnt it just a few years back that immigrants in switzerland were complaining of the forced integration that their children were forced through by living there? where do you get the idea that most people aren't racists anymore? how many people have you met and got to know for a fact that they aren't racists at hearts? that is just hopes and dreams, and the reality is people are hell of alot worse than that. we all have prejudices and it wont dissapear in half a century.
*edit* you sure can't get sarcasm even if it hit you in the face for that quote. maybe you moved to switzerland from romania? they are part of the EU too now right
Was a typo, should mean "YOUR" not "OUR" stupid typo, sorry. I wouldn't say something like that about switzerland, we got our own fair share of *swiss flavored rednecks/hillbillys*.
Switzerland isn't in the EU.
One political party in Switzerland has racial tendencies or at least uses populist messages tand fear mongering according to the UN. Call them right wing republicans (- the church thing) and you get the basic idea.
well i stand corrected on the EU factor. i was wrong here.
i was replying to kwarks post about my sarcastic comment regarding racism disappearing in the US. he stated how 60 years ago, europe cleaned up all the antisemitism and i was stating how with our election of obama, racism dissapeared in a shorter amount of time, which is total bullshit on both accounts.
*edit* well that your makes hell of alot more sense than the our. and i think i meant forced integration into your society.
On September 17 2009 19:50 Velr wrote: Written bullshit will be exploited, no matter the 100 sentences around.
You wrote something stupid, maybe intentional maybe not, it got called. Welcome to the internet, now stop acting like a little baby.
Btw:
just like how racism doesnt exist over here for black and white relationships. election of obama surely cleared up any arguments that race issues have dissolved into thin air in a span of a couple generations.
Yeah, dream on. The majority of our population is not racist anymore. Saying race is no longer an issue is at least a *little* stretch.
majority of your population? wasnt it just a few years back that immigrants in switzerland were complaining of the forced integration that their children were forced through by living there? where do you get the idea that most people aren't racists anymore? how many people have you met and got to know for a fact that they aren't racists at hearts? that is just hopes and dreams, and the reality is people are hell of alot worse than that. we all have prejudices and it wont dissapear in half a century.
*edit* you sure can't get sarcasm even if it hit you in the face for that quote. maybe you moved to switzerland from romania? they are part of the EU too now right
Switzerland isn't in the EU lol.
but they are racist. why else would the UN and amnesty international have an eye out on them for the rise of xenophobia and racism.
Smoothly glossing over the bit where you display ignorance about the world... I think you got away with it. Not sure anyone noticed your mistake.
and you claiming i said america was backward home for some american muslims was totally inaccurate since they are immigrants from pakistan, but lets gloss over that too right? it cant be you being so knowledgeable that allowed you to imply incorrectly
On September 17 2009 19:50 Velr wrote: Written bullshit will be exploited, no matter the 100 sentences around.
You wrote something stupid, maybe intentional maybe not, it got called. Welcome to the internet, now stop acting like a little baby.
Btw:
just like how racism doesnt exist over here for black and white relationships. election of obama surely cleared up any arguments that race issues have dissolved into thin air in a span of a couple generations.
Yeah, dream on. The majority of our population is not racist anymore. Saying race is no longer an issue is at least a *little* stretch.
majority of your population? wasnt it just a few years back that immigrants in switzerland were complaining of the forced integration that their children were forced through by living there? where do you get the idea that most people aren't racists anymore? how many people have you met and got to know for a fact that they aren't racists at hearts? that is just hopes and dreams, and the reality is people are hell of alot worse than that. we all have prejudices and it wont dissapear in half a century.
*edit* you sure can't get sarcasm even if it hit you in the face for that quote. maybe you moved to switzerland from romania? they are part of the EU too now right
Switzerland isn't in the EU lol.
but they are racist. why else would the UN and amnesty international have an eye out on them for the rise of xenophobia and racism.
Smoothly glossing over the bit where you display ignorance about the world... I think you got away with it. Not sure anyone noticed your mistake.
and you claiming i said america was backward home for some american muslims was totally inaccurate since they are immigrants from pakistan, but lets gloss over that too right? it cant be you being so knowledgeable that allowed you to imply incorrectly
That was your fault for using a Pakistani to respond to my argument regarding American Muslims. Don't take your mistakes and put them on me. You can't bring a Pakistani up when I'm talking about Americans and then when I don't immediately point it out go "hah, he's not even an American, you lose".
On September 17 2009 19:50 Velr wrote: Written bullshit will be exploited, no matter the 100 sentences around.
You wrote something stupid, maybe intentional maybe not, it got called. Welcome to the internet, now stop acting like a little baby.
Btw:
just like how racism doesnt exist over here for black and white relationships. election of obama surely cleared up any arguments that race issues have dissolved into thin air in a span of a couple generations.
Yeah, dream on. The majority of our population is not racist anymore. Saying race is no longer an issue is at least a *little* stretch.
majority of your population? wasnt it just a few years back that immigrants in switzerland were complaining of the forced integration that their children were forced through by living there? where do you get the idea that most people aren't racists anymore? how many people have you met and got to know for a fact that they aren't racists at hearts? that is just hopes and dreams, and the reality is people are hell of alot worse than that. we all have prejudices and it wont dissapear in half a century.
*edit* you sure can't get sarcasm even if it hit you in the face for that quote. maybe you moved to switzerland from romania? they are part of the EU too now right
Switzerland isn't in the EU lol.
but they are racist. why else would the UN and amnesty international have an eye out on them for the rise of xenophobia and racism.
Smoothly glossing over the bit where you display ignorance about the world... I think you got away with it. Not sure anyone noticed your mistake.
and you claiming i said america was backward home for some american muslims was totally inaccurate since they are immigrants from pakistan, but lets gloss over that too right? it cant be you being so knowledgeable that allowed you to imply incorrectly
That was your fault for using a Pakistani to respond to my argument regarding American Muslims. Don't take your mistakes and put them on me. You can't bring a Pakistani up when I'm talking about Americans and then when I don't immediately point it out go "hah, he's not even an American, you lose".
people who are strongly religious are backwards, no doubt about that. historically speaking, we live in the era of science. why else would the enlightenment be called the enlightenment? the era of religion has passed in the western world, but is still present in many muslim countries cus they never had an enlightenment. In fact, they kind of have the reverse development.
Most arab countries and muslims were pretty tolerant and modern up until Napoleon rolled the Egypts with like half or one-third the troop size of the egyptian armies in the end of the 18th century. The egypts were defeated hard in multiple battles, once napoleon even attacked a stationary army of 18.000 men with his own 6.000 and slaughtered them easily. From that day on, religious leaders proclaimed that their disadvantages and shortcomings in comparison to the west derived from their lack of faith, that allah was punishing them for their 'modern' lifestyle. The religion in muslim countries gradually became a much more important factor from the 18th century to now because of this, thats why they kind of developed in a reverse way to what western society developed concerning influence of religion and support of ratio/science.
That said I think I can justify my opinion that due to lack of education and lack of sane governments, most muslims are backwards. They would need something comparable to the enlightenment to get them up to modern standards. Unfortunately, even muslims who live in western countries are often a little backwards (though not comparable to those in the muslim world) just because of their natural bond to their relatives / countrymen / fellow muslims. The professor brought up a good point. Why dont they protest the many wrongdoings of extremist muslims in their home countries? Why can't they just flat out call them stupid idiots and condemn their actions? Sure, they may do it in private, but I have the feeling its really not one of their major concerns when instead they choose to protest a tasteless cartoon. Until they understand that the problem with Islam lies within and not with the 'intolerant' western culture, they are backwards to me as well.
You obviously havent been to many college campuses in America.
You obviously have no idea of the outrage that cartoon caused in the Muslim world. Read that carefully. A cartoon.
A cartoon which was published in a reputable western journal. This is very different from islamic extremist terrorist groups who are far removed from the average muslim. The problem with that cartoon was that it was allowed to be published in the first place.
Can you even imagine the outrage the U.S. students would bring about if a chinese national journal published a cartoon of them blasting the U.S. with a batch of nukes? Or how about if that journal published a Red soldier(as in a communist soldier) stomping over Jesus and his cross, ripping the bible apart with bullets?
PS: I'm a protestan korean living in korea, but I have muslim friends and can't help but feel insulted at your biased and polluted view of muslims
come and get me
Nice cartoon!
Only...
You aren't a nationally renown journal... So no american would get outraged.
If people are free to make this kind of cartoons they are also free to protest against it ( if it is done peacefully ).
Anyway i think this professor is a right wing idiot ( comments on France lol ) but those students seem to be quite stupid too. Protesting against a cartoon made in Denmark whereas you live in the US... Good job tools.
I have a teacher who has been banned from sending research material to one of internet sites which gathers all materials from physics things (he showed paper which says "you account has been banned). Even page says they accept everything.
That what you get if you interested about cold fusion, ban for life :D. Though that teacher was pretty funny overall.
Other teacher worked NASA in USA, but later when he was almost done he heard that his work is going to be used for cold war purpose. He left USA back to Finland and hide all papers to little cabin. LOL. FBI/CIA wasn't happy. He still has those papers (though outdated nowdays).
On September 17 2009 21:32 Too_MuchZerg wrote: I have a teacher who has been banned from sending research material to one of internet sites which gathers all materials from physics things (he showed paper which says "you account has been banned). Even page says they accept everything.
That what you get if you interested about cold fusion, ban for life :D. Though that teacher was pretty funny overall.
Other teacher worked NASA in USA, but later when he was almost done he heard that his work is going to be used for cold war purpose. He left USA back to Finland and hide all papers to little cabin. LOL. FBI/CIA wasn't happy. He still has those papers (though outdated nowdays).
I know a professor from the Russia/UDSSR who researched Moscows heat/warmth efficiency. He found out that it would be ok/good... But the Highways completly destroy it and make it one of the worst constructed cities in the world :p. At least that was, how i understod it.
He got his Dr. title for it but had to promise to never ever make his studys public :p.
On September 17 2009 21:40 Avius wrote: I am at loss for words for people who think that this letter is "absolutely" right.
Avius are you really in Iraq?
No, I am a German citizen and as such I identify myself. I am an Iraqi Kurd, though. That is my undeniable heritage and I am proud of it.
Of course the professor has every right to protest the protest. Freedom of speech should never be second guessed. But freedom of speech (or any freedom for that matter) is only warranted until it cuts into another person's or demographic's freedom. Yes, we take our religion seriously, woe is us. Why draw comics or say something only for the sake of confrontation? If Christians or Jews or any other religion has no problem with their religion being ridiculed, so be it. Thou art truly greater than us. But only because you can, doesn't mean that we will stand for it. Of course, all you saw was the burning flags etc, which was WRONG. Muslims nowadays tend to overreact because they are told something which is untrue and spiral downards in this so called "hate against the west". It has a culture of its own, which is wrong in its very core. But so is the western idea of us being terrorists and them being afraid of us and the way we muslims are being portrayed around the world.
For instance: Just as the professor was right to protest the protest, the Islamic student organization at that university had the right to protest the comics. And seeing as this was done on university level, I do not think they started throwing bombs and such. I could guarantee you that this was a peaceful protest.
I am a muslim and definitely not ashamed of it. We take pride in our religion and we're not war mongerers or hate-speakers. That what the media shows you is the epitome of generalization. The picture being portrayed, that we are evil bomb setting terrorists with no hearts whatsoever is just wrong and many of you realize that. Hence my shock about all the "this guy is absolutely right" comments. I could point out just as many claims against any other religious or demographic group for their atrocities, but we would not be one single inch closer to "resolving", if that is ever possible, problems. It sadly is a standstill which will take years over years, if ever, to conclude.
I know I won't convince anyone in this thread, but the Islam is a religion of peace and respect. What Physician posted is out of context. It's nice to see the word "fight" and associate murder and genocide with it or what not. But fighting means so much more. You can fight peacefully for example and that is exactly what you should do. In the Qur'an it also says: respect thy fellow neighbour, just as it says in every other religion or even COMMON SENSE. It also states, word by word, that you should respect Christians and Jews alike.
There is so much more I want to write but I can't because I barely have time. Wishing you guys a pleasent evening.
You obviously havent been to many college campuses in America.
You obviously have no idea of the outrage that cartoon caused in the Muslim world. Read that with care. A cartoon.
I call bullshit on most of that. While people being offended about it im sure happened. Even if there were thousands marching thats a drop in the population. Not everyone in Iran is a fucking nut who screams death to america.
Lol are you kidding, did you not even know this had happened before reading the op? It was a REALLY big deal, so before you go and "call bullshit" on anyone, do even the slightest amount of research first.
On September 17 2009 12:35 BanZu wrote: I don't see anything wrong with his letter.
i don't either
are you blind? its called the slippery slope fallacy. where because the students are protesting a cartoon, it obviously means they are part of a terrorist organisation and are slave traders etc etc
the guys a loony
Just to put this out there; the Islam the West knows isn't the Islam practiced in Africa, Asia minor and the Middle East. To resign myself to title of 'bigot,' the phrase 'Muslim extremist' is a misnomer. Literal belief in the Qur'an necessitates this sort of extremism, it's inherent in Islam; not so much the Qur'an as the Hadith (non-literal belief in the Qur'an necessitates apostasy). If these students hail from the Middle East, Africa or Asia minor, then the attitude they've brought over towards the West isn't one of friendliness. If they are true to the teachings of the Qur'an, that extremist attitude will eventually manifest. Consider the fact that they are protesting cartoons, some of which are known to be fraudulent -- they don't have a right to not be offended.
I'm not saying these students are like this. What I am saying, though, is that the West doesn't understand Islam.
I also have no interest in arguing the point with someone who isn't Islamic.
And if you took everyword the bible says at its face value, you'd have to execute every gay, lesbo, cheating husbands/wives, the list goes on.
(sarcasm)So yeah. It is inherent in Christian culture that violence against such groups is not only good, but supported by God. Long live the KKK!
Well, 'sarcastically' speaking, you're equivocating Judaism (Old Testament; Tanakh) with Christianity (New Testament). Perhaps we (Christians) should have all followed Marcion when he, in comprising his New Testament canon, threw out all of the Old Testament -- that archaic God of the Jews! One wonders why the early New Testament church did not spend their time killing sexual sinners! For heaven's sake, they lived in Rome!
There's a lot more that could be said, though I think the easiest thing to say is that you just aren't clever.
So what happened to freedom of speech in this country? So what, he's a nut? Since when was being opinionated legal, because if it is, I need to turn myself in.
On September 17 2009 21:40 Avius wrote: I am at loss for words for people who think that this letter is "absolutely" right.
Avius are you really in Iraq?
No, I am a German citizen and as such I identify myself. I am an Iraqi Kurd, though. That is my undeniable heritage and I am proud of it.
Of course the professor has every right to protest the protest. Freedom of speech should never be second guessed. But freedom of speech (or any freedom for that matter) is only warranted until it cuts into another person's or demographic's freedom. Yes, we take our religion seriously, woe is us. Why draw comics or say something only for the sake of confrontation? If Christians or Jews or any other religion has no problem with their religion being ridiculed, so be it. Thou art truly greater than us. But only because you can, doesn't mean that we will stand for it. Of course, all you saw was the burning flags etc, which was WRONG. Muslims nowadays tend to overreact because they are told something which is untrue and spiral downards in this so called "hate against the west". It has a culture of its own, which is wrong in its very core. But so is the western idea of us being terrorists and them being afraid of us and the way we muslims are being portrayed around the world.
For instance: Just as the professor was right to protest the protest, the Islamic student organization at that university had the right to protest the comics. And seeing as this was done on university level, I do not think they started throwing bombs and such. I could guarantee you that this was a peaceful protest.
I am a muslim and definitely not ashamed of it. We take pride in our religion and we're not war mongerers or hate-speakers. That what the media shows you is the epitome of generalization. The picture being portrayed, that we are evil bomb setting terrorists with no hearts whatsoever is just wrong and many of you realize that. Hence my shock about all the "this guy is absolutely right" comments. I could point out just as many claims against any other religious or demographic group for their atrocities, but we would not be one single inch closer to "resolving", if that is ever possible, problems. It sadly is a standstill which will take years over years, if ever, to conclude.
I know I won't convince anyone in this thread, but the Islam is a religion of peace and respect. What Physician posted is out of context. It's nice to see the word "fight" and associate murder and genocide with it or what not. But fighting means so much more. You can fight peacefully for example and that is exactly what you should do. In the Qur'an it also says: respect thy fellow neighbour, just as it says in every other religion or even COMMON SENSE. It also states, word by word, that you should respect Christians and Jews alike.
There is so much more I want to write but I can't because I barely have time. Wishing you guys a pleasent evening.
the problem with this world is that people will use religion as a mode of control over a populace. i mean you hear the hate mongering that people spew who have power throughout the middle east and you just cringe. shouldnt be that way but whenever some group comes in power with no checks and balances shit hits the fan.
the problem is the religion has been hijacked by maniacs and ego driven bastards who are using the islam religion for their own hate driven agendas.
quick question though, are women treated that bad over there? my friend was going through even morocco and people were leering at her in the most uncomfortable ways and that country is alot more lenient than saudi or iran
On September 18 2009 02:50 vx70GTOJudgexv wrote: So what happened to freedom of speech in this country? So what, he's a nut? Since when was being opinionated legal, because if it is, I need to turn myself in.
What does freedom of speech have to do with it?
I haven't seen anyone here advocate jail-time or some other punishment for the professor. And the government certainly isn't working to punish him. It looks like freedom of speech is alive and well in this country.
On September 17 2009 21:40 Avius wrote: I am at loss for words for people who think that this letter is "absolutely" right.
Avius are you really in Iraq?
No, I am a German citizen and as such I identify myself. I am an Iraqi Kurd, though. That is my undeniable heritage and I am proud of it.
Of course the professor has every right to protest the protest. Freedom of speech should never be second guessed. But freedom of speech (or any freedom for that matter) is only warranted until it cuts into another person's or demographic's freedom. Yes, we take our religion seriously, woe is us. Why draw comics or say something only for the sake of confrontation? If Christians or Jews or any other religion has no problem with their religion being ridiculed, so be it. Thou art truly greater than us. But only because you can, doesn't mean that we will stand for it. Of course, all you saw was the burning flags etc, which was WRONG. Muslims nowadays tend to overreact because they are told something which is untrue and spiral downards in this so called "hate against the west". It has a culture of its own, which is wrong in its very core. But so is the western idea of us being terrorists and them being afraid of us and the way we muslims are being portrayed around the world.
For instance: Just as the professor was right to protest the protest, the Islamic student organization at that university had the right to protest the comics. And seeing as this was done on university level, I do not think they started throwing bombs and such. I could guarantee you that this was a peaceful protest.
I am a muslim and definitely not ashamed of it. We take pride in our religion and we're not war mongerers or hate-speakers. That what the media shows you is the epitome of generalization. The picture being portrayed, that we are evil bomb setting terrorists with no hearts whatsoever is just wrong and many of you realize that. Hence my shock about all the "this guy is absolutely right" comments. I could point out just as many claims against any other religious or demographic group for their atrocities, but we would not be one single inch closer to "resolving", if that is ever possible, problems. It sadly is a standstill which will take years over years, if ever, to conclude.
I know I won't convince anyone in this thread, but the Islam is a religion of peace and respect. What Physician posted is out of context. It's nice to see the word "fight" and associate murder and genocide with it or what not. But fighting means so much more. You can fight peacefully for example and that is exactly what you should do. In the Qur'an it also says: respect thy fellow neighbour, just as it says in every other religion or even COMMON SENSE. It also states, word by word, that you should respect Christians and Jews alike.
There is so much more I want to write but I can't because I barely have time. Wishing you guys a pleasent evening.
the problem with this world is that people will use religion as a mode of control over a populace. i mean you hear the hate mongering that people spew who have power throughout the middle east and you just cringe. shouldnt be that way but whenever some group comes in power with no checks and balances shit hits the fan.
the problem is the religion has been hijacked by maniacs and ego driven bastards who are using the islam religion for their own hate driven agendas.
quick question though, are women treated that bad over there? my friend was going through even morocco and people were leering at her in the most uncomfortable ways and that country is alot more lenient than saudi or iran
You absolutely hit the nail on the head. And as a muslim, I condemn those people (especially other muslims) who would abuse religion, any religion in fact, to achieve any hidden agenda.
I will give you that even I don't like the way women are treated in countries like Saudi Arabia and the like.
But I can speak for my country: women are not treated badly. In fact, they (like in the western world) are encouraged to go to school and university and look for a job. Just like we have it everywhere around here. They can do whatever they want and wear whatever they want. At least it is like that for the Kurdish part of Iraq. I dare say, though, that we are more liberal than our neighbours. But this is just my point of view, no offense to other people.
Well he seems like an okay guy. No point in that e-mail to those moslems, if you could reason with religious people there would be no religious people.
On September 18 2009 04:28 Mah Buckit! wrote: Well he seems like an okay guy. No point in that e-mail to those moslems, if you could reason with religious people there would be no religious people.
he was clearly religious himself, interestingly enough
On September 17 2009 21:40 Avius wrote: I am at loss for words for people who think that this letter is "absolutely" right.
Avius are you really in Iraq?
No, I am a German citizen and as such I identify myself. I am an Iraqi Kurd, though. That is my undeniable heritage and I am proud of it.
Of course the professor has every right to protest the protest. Freedom of speech should never be second guessed. But freedom of speech (or any freedom for that matter) is only warranted until it cuts into another person's or demographic's freedom. Yes, we take our religion seriously, woe is us. Why draw comics or say something only for the sake of confrontation? If Christians or Jews or any other religion has no problem with their religion being ridiculed, so be it. Thou art truly greater than us. But only because you can, doesn't mean that we will stand for it. Of course, all you saw was the burning flags etc, which was WRONG. Muslims nowadays tend to overreact because they are told something which is untrue and spiral downards in this so called "hate against the west". It has a culture of its own, which is wrong in its very core. But so is the western idea of us being terrorists and them being afraid of us and the way we muslims are being portrayed around the world.
For instance: Just as the professor was right to protest the protest, the Islamic student organization at that university had the right to protest the comics. And seeing as this was done on university level, I do not think they started throwing bombs and such. I could guarantee you that this was a peaceful protest.
I am a muslim and definitely not ashamed of it. We take pride in our religion and we're not war mongerers or hate-speakers. That what the media shows you is the epitome of generalization. The picture being portrayed, that we are evil bomb setting terrorists with no hearts whatsoever is just wrong and many of you realize that. Hence my shock about all the "this guy is absolutely right" comments. I could point out just as many claims against any other religious or demographic group for their atrocities, but we would not be one single inch closer to "resolving", if that is ever possible, problems. It sadly is a standstill which will take years over years, if ever, to conclude.
I know I won't convince anyone in this thread, but the Islam is a religion of peace and respect. What Physician posted is out of context. It's nice to see the word "fight" and associate murder and genocide with it or what not. But fighting means so much more. You can fight peacefully for example and that is exactly what you should do. In the Qur'an it also says: respect thy fellow neighbour, just as it says in every other religion or even COMMON SENSE. It also states, word by word, that you should respect Christians and Jews alike.
There is so much more I want to write but I can't because I barely have time. Wishing you guys a pleasent evening.
the problem with this world is that people will use religion as a mode of control over a populace. i mean you hear the hate mongering that people spew who have power throughout the middle east and you just cringe. shouldnt be that way but whenever some group comes in power with no checks and balances shit hits the fan.
the problem is the religion has been hijacked by maniacs and ego driven bastards who are using the islam religion for their own hate driven agendas.
quick question though, are women treated that bad over there? my friend was going through even morocco and people were leering at her in the most uncomfortable ways and that country is alot more lenient than saudi or iran
You absolutely hit the nail on the head. And as a muslim, I condemn those people (especially other muslims) who would abuse religion, any religion in fact, to achieve any hidden agenda.
I will give you that even I don't like the way women are treated in countries like Saudi Arabia and the like.
But I can speak for my country: women are not treated badly. In fact, they (like in the western world) are encouraged to go to school and university and look for a job. Just like we have it everywhere around here. They can do whatever they want and wear whatever they want. At least it is like that for the Kurdish part of Iraq. I dare say, though, that we are more liberal than our neighbours. But this is just my point of view, no offense to other people.
I always thought the Kurds were much more reformed than the Arabs when it came to women and religion. Maybe it's from all the experience that they've had with the Sunni extremists brand of Islam.
On September 17 2009 18:11 Kong John wrote: Im not sure if everyone here really knows the story about the cartoons. Originally they were intended for a childrensbook but noone would make the illustrations for it. After hearing this the newspaper "Jyllandsposten" hired some journalists to make some random drawings of muhammed so that people wouldnt be so silly as to not make illustrations in a childrensbook. You know the rest.
But honestly, this was a student organisation. These people have something in common and they make an organisation so that they can hang out together. These kids only protested becourse other muslims did, and that makes them feel like muslims, thats all there is to it. Alot of people in the middle east have a completely different background than us and dont nessesarily have an education. These people will do as they are told by their religion, there is nothing more to it.
I think that you guys are really stupid in the way you view this. All the attacks that have originated from arabic people come from a pretty small group of people NOT all muslims!
These cartoons attacked EVERY SINGLE MUSLIM in the world! That is the difference.
Telling these kids that what they are doing is stupid becourse some people far away do stupid shit and have their religion in common is the most stupid and racist thing ive ever heard. This kind of anti-religion is really uneducated, im suprised that hes allowed to be a proffesor.
edit: some typos
Anything anti-religion is the exact opposite of stupid by definition. oh and please do explain how cartoons can attack people. It's seriously a huge fucking problem that people in western countries have to be afraid of what they say about a backwards, violent, religion in fear of their lives, and a lot of people even support this lunacy. I know these guys are just a student group, but by protesting these cartoons they are intentionally associating themselves with the same attitude of those groups of people who are issuing death threats and actually following up with them. And besides, just because they are a student group doesn't necessarily mean they are all liberal and non-violent, I mean you would expect those muslims who have emigrated to Denmark or France or whatever western country to also be liberal and civilized people, seeing as how they were smart enough to want to leave the countries that are fucked up due to their backward beliefs, but then a cartoon gets published and next thing you know there's riots, death threats and murders.
/end rant
You know, most emigrants with arab background who have come to Denmark have either come due to our campaign in the seventies about comeing to Denmark and work. Or they are fugitives. Atleast half the muslims in Denmark are fugitives from Iran, Irak or Kurdistan.
There is also nothing stupid about having a religion. Being an atheist doesent make you smart by defenition, if you throw up the word religous in a wordbook i highly doubt it says "stupid person". Its just a life filosofi, and alot of people live very happy lives due to it. Science hasent proven anything, its just theories about how things probably are. Saying that your dumb if your not an atheist is just nonreligous zealotry. You have nothing that backs this claim.
Protesting towards people who offended you brings you in the same camp as other people who have been offended aswell? I dont really follow you there, if i say im a christian does that mean that muslims can bash on me becourse of the crusades? Does this mean that im in assosiated with every christian cult that i dont approve of?
Also, there hasent happened anything to Denmark as a country from making the drawings. Yes, some random people send threatning letters and there was flagburning. I dont really see how this means that all muslims are stupid or whatever. People are allowed to protest all they want if they are offended and what the arabs did was all fine imo. What did they do that crossed the line? If we make cartoons making fun of their religion they can burn our flag all they want.
In case you missed it. It is illegal to draw living beings in islam, and you CAN NOT draw holy beings. This is part of their religion and this is why they got so offended.
Actually not only do I have things to back this "claim", you also have many of them as well. For example, the computer you used to write this post, your car, your cellphone, microwave, toaster, HDTV, etc., do I need to go on?
On September 17 2009 21:40 Avius wrote: I am at loss for words for people who think that this letter is "absolutely" right.
Avius are you really in Iraq?
No, I am a German citizen and as such I identify myself. I am an Iraqi Kurd, though. That is my undeniable heritage and I am proud of it.
Of course the professor has every right to protest the protest. Freedom of speech should never be second guessed. But freedom of speech (or any freedom for that matter) is only warranted until it cuts into another person's or demographic's freedom. Yes, we take our religion seriously, woe is us. Why draw comics or say something only for the sake of confrontation? If Christians or Jews or any other religion has no problem with their religion being ridiculed, so be it. Thou art truly greater than us. But only because you can, doesn't mean that we will stand for it. Of course, all you saw was the burning flags etc, which was WRONG. Muslims nowadays tend to overreact because they are told something which is untrue and spiral downards in this so called "hate against the west". It has a culture of its own, which is wrong in its very core. But so is the western idea of us being terrorists and them being afraid of us and the way we muslims are being portrayed around the world.
For instance: Just as the professor was right to protest the protest, the Islamic student organization at that university had the right to protest the comics. And seeing as this was done on university level, I do not think they started throwing bombs and such. I could guarantee you that this was a peaceful protest.
I am a muslim and definitely not ashamed of it. We take pride in our religion and we're not war mongerers or hate-speakers. That what the media shows you is the epitome of generalization. The picture being portrayed, that we are evil bomb setting terrorists with no hearts whatsoever is just wrong and many of you realize that. Hence my shock about all the "this guy is absolutely right" comments. I could point out just as many claims against any other religious or demographic group for their atrocities, but we would not be one single inch closer to "resolving", if that is ever possible, problems. It sadly is a standstill which will take years over years, if ever, to conclude.
I know I won't convince anyone in this thread, but the Islam is a religion of peace and respect. What Physician posted is out of context. It's nice to see the word "fight" and associate murder and genocide with it or what not. But fighting means so much more. You can fight peacefully for example and that is exactly what you should do. In the Qur'an it also says: respect thy fellow neighbour, just as it says in every other religion or even COMMON SENSE. It also states, word by word, that you should respect Christians and Jews alike.
There is so much more I want to write but I can't because I barely have time. Wishing you guys a pleasent evening.
the problem with this world is that people will use religion as a mode of control over a populace. i mean you hear the hate mongering that people spew who have power throughout the middle east and you just cringe. shouldnt be that way but whenever some group comes in power with no checks and balances shit hits the fan.
the problem is the religion has been hijacked by maniacs and ego driven bastards who are using the islam religion for their own hate driven agendas.
quick question though, are women treated that bad over there? my friend was going through even morocco and people were leering at her in the most uncomfortable ways and that country is alot more lenient than saudi or iran
You absolutely hit the nail on the head. And as a muslim, I condemn those people (especially other muslims) who would abuse religion, any religion in fact, to achieve any hidden agenda.
I will give you that even I don't like the way women are treated in countries like Saudi Arabia and the like.
But I can speak for my country: women are not treated badly. In fact, they (like in the western world) are encouraged to go to school and university and look for a job. Just like we have it everywhere around here. They can do whatever they want and wear whatever they want. At least it is like that for the Kurdish part of Iraq. I dare say, though, that we are more liberal than our neighbours. But this is just my point of view, no offense to other people.
So they have absolutely the same stance as man? No patriarchism in family life or anywhere else?? Come on, who are you kidding? Even in most western countries and christian religion, women can NOT wear what they want, let alone do what they want... I simply dont believe you if you tell me a woman in kurdish iraq can run around in a mini-skirt and fuck a different guy every month.. Even in western countries like italy or spain women cant do that without being stamped as a whore, while its np for men to do that. I guess only scandinavian countries come close to a point where women can really do what they want, but making a claim like that for an islamic country, coupled with ur use of the word "even" in "Even I don't like the way women are treated in countries like Saudi Arabia and the like." makes me think that you only think you are liberal (which you probably are for being a muslim) when in fact you dont even fully grasp what being liberal and modern towards these things really means (again, most christians or even atheists dont know either).
EPT
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