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Sc2 beta key contest entry!
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Bertrand ‘ElkY’ Grospellier took home $1.4mil by winning the WPT last year. Ivan "(Orky)Soul" Demidov took home $5.8 mil finishing second in the biggest poker tournament of the year - the 2008 WSOP main event. Fredrik "[GG99]Slayer" ostervold was spectulated to have made over $10 mil (judging from the tax he pays) playing the high stakes online. Even idunnohisrealname "HovZ" just won the Cali Poker Champs for $327,714 last week. And rekrul? Don't even get me started.
So you want a piece of the pie, you are a starcraft player, your favourite race is zerg. this should be easy monies right?? Wrong! Look at the players above. Zerg players dont win.
No but seriously, you probably had some interest in this but never knew where to start. And you knew plunging head-first into the world of online poker sans any research will leave you like a dragoon who just got dragoon bugged. But fear not, help is on the way - thats what this guide is for. And for me to get my starcraft 2 beta key!
General FAQ
Isn't Poker just gambling?
No. Poker is a game of skill, and every decision you make is about maximising your Expected Value or EV for short. And i will explain why.
Most gambling games, like roulette, for instance have a negative EV for you, and a positive EV (5.49% in this case) for the casino. You can wiki roulette to see how they do the calculations. Meaning - sure in the short run you could win, but in the long run, if you played the game 1000 times, the casino would always end up winning by about 5.49%. These gambling games are in favour of the house.
Poker however, pits you against other players and not the house. In a full ring game (9 players) or shorthanded game (6 players), you want to make the best EV decisions against the many other players playing worse(making -EV decisions) than you.
A very simple example would be if you were delt AA before the flop came (preflop), which everyone knows is the best hand preflop. This hand has an about 80% chance to win against any other hand preflop. If u played and raised all in with this hand against a player who played and called every all in, you would undoubtedly have a huge edge as you will be an 80% favourite every time, making it a +EV decision. Of course this is an exagarated example and playing one hand would be silly so what you would do is play say the top 20% of hands. Against a person who plays maybe 70% of their hands, you again, will be making a +EV decision every time u play with him as chances are your starting hands have a lot higher probability to win. This is just scraping the surface, and there is an EV attached to every decision and every situation. As such, many sites often provide starting hand charts for beginners to use, as this would be the simplest way to boost your EV.
A limit holdem starting hand chart from Stox Poker
However, there is always variance and in the short term poorer players might get lucky, win big but thats also what attracts them to come back. In the long term, a good player who always makes +EV decisions will always end up a long term winner. And that is why poker is not gambling but a game of skill of understanding and exploiting your opponents mistakes.
Is online poker safe?
Extremely. Some sites have over 50,000 people logged in at one time. They run advertistments on the TV and the web. Major sites are listed on the stock market. Any bad publicity would affect their business so these sites often provide top notch customer service. As long as you don't do anything silly like giving people your password, or getting keylogged at a pubic internet cafe, your money is in very safe hands. These sites have no incentive to cheat when dealing hands, as you bet against other players, not the house. If anything, they want to be extremely fair as they want you to play as they earn their income in the form of "rake" which is a very small % cut (less than 1% usually) of the total pot. Unlike the casino, you are playing against the other player, and not the house.
Obviously if the poker site seems very dodgy, you have heard of it, they don't advertise, there aren't many players - you wouldn't be depositing your money in there. But for the vast majority of sites, they are very safe and reputable.
Where should i play?
Two of the biggest sites are Pokerstars and Full Tilt Poker These sites have lots of traffic, play money tables, plenty of freeroll tournaments and the very best customer support. If you're a beginner i suggest playing at these sites when you start soley because of the number of games available (play money too), and the excellent support.
The site says "Deposit and get another $600!" OMG! Do i really get another X amount after depositing?
Sadly, not right away, and its kind of misleading in that sense as no one bothers to read the fine print. Well for some sites you get a very small portion (around 10%) of your deposit instantly, but that is rare. What the sites normally mean by this is, you deposit $600, and then after you accumulate a certain amount of player points, they will give you your $600. Now these player points are accumulated by playing raked hands, meaning the sites gets rake from you (for every pot above x amount), gives you player points in return, and if u reach the required points you get that "bonus" which is effectively giving you back a percentage of the money they raked from you. Long story short, this takes about a month of constant play, is very hard to clear at any limit below NL25, and bonuses are effectively about 20-50% rakeback. So bonuses are a good thing of course, but what actually happens is the site is just giving you back 20-50% of the money they took from you.
Is there an online community?
The biggest online community would have to be the 2+2 forums. Basically what happened was David Sklansky wrote a whole bunch of extremely popular poker books, published by 2+2. Players naturally flocked to the site to discuss everything poker related in the forums and a community was born. Posters discuss everything from graphs of their yearly winnings, their desktop setup, the optimal way to play certain hands, and the usual whine post of the bad beat that they just suffered. This site along with TL's sister site, liquidpoker, are very good places to visit daily to improve your game.
"TheBryce" posted his 2007 poker winnings in this 2007 yearly winnings graph 2+2 forum post. Which was subsequently met with "OMG" "SICK" etc, sending 99% of the population on life tilt. Probably the most amazing stats ever posted. Yes, he made 2.587 mil over 157k hands.
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No matter what happens to this blog or what people say... it was still a good read.
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schibl0r was a zergplayer, right? doesn't he make good money from poker too?
good thing I'm terra plaer :D
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Well, you just got your SC2 beta key in my opinion, excellent write-up despite me having no interest in this! 
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2 years later that Bryce pt stat screenshot is still fucking insane.
But I do think you should've devoted a section to discussing exactly how hard it is to become decent at this game (up to mid stakes level), especially in the post-leg games today. As an actual "professional" myself I feel like although I've coached many players at the beginner levels to become relatively decent, I still can't help but feel like it's getting harder and harder to stay ahead of the learning curve without putting in a sick amount of dedication (both time and effort).
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What about tournament poker? Thats my specialty...
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On June 02 2009 13:16 KnightOfNi wrote:
What about tournament poker? Thats my specialty...
what kind of tournament you play? how much you've made? (and average income about in a month)
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Don't forget Fayth, Grrrr..., and Midian. Fayth in particular makes ridiculous amounts of money, that bastard.
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Baltimore, USA22254 Posts
I loved this, good read 
But may I humbly suggest resizing the multi-tabling pic? For those of us who don't like image resizing, it REALLY distorts the layout.
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i just realized that every time you said poker, it wasn't hot linked to liquid poker.
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Good writeup. If only the games didn't get tougher everyday!
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On June 02 2009 14:01 Sunhay wrote:
i just realized that every time you said poker, it wasn't hot linked to liquid poker.
yea wtf oO
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On June 02 2009 13:57 EvilTeletubby wrote:I loved this, good read But may I humbly suggest resizing the multi-tabling pic? For those of us who don't like image resizing, it REALLY distorts the layout.
dunno how to do that! ure a mod u can edit that for me right ? thanks!
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you can get this at liquid poker, but you have to look long and hard to find it.
5/5
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On June 02 2009 14:12 jodogohoo wrote:
you can get this at liquid poker, but you have to look long and hard to find it.
5/5
ya i wrote that on knol a few months ago, this one is a much updated and refined version!
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United States12607 Posts
This is really interesting...I like the bits on poker culture, like the two teenagers living together in a house they bought with their winnings o.o
I'm loving this SC2 beta contest! Posting quality is skyrocketing!
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Congrats on beta key, if you don't win it it'll be a travesty. This guide+grot's guide should be essential reading for aspiring poker players.
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Belgium6771 Posts
holy shit that forum post by raptor LOL sheer decadence
totally gonna read this when I have more time
GJ!
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I don't play poker (I've been told I should irl many times) but I liked this blog.
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damn.... this was a totally awesome read.
one thing: you use a lot of terms/abbreviations that may not be familiar to novices. this is important because this guide is aimed at novices, so you should define terms when necessary.
still... makes me want to play
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poker ez yo just checkraise keke
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yes checkraise every single flop, even when you're in position
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It's the same on LP.net - if you say StarCraft, you get linked to TL.
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i lost play money due to this guide.
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lol im playing at pokerstars as we speak!
edit* and wtf i have been so card dead for so long!
lol standard poker complaints...but seriously though wtf gimme cards!
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On June 02 2009 13:15 PanoRaMa wrote:
But I do think you should've devoted a section to discussing exactly how hard it is to become decent at this game (up to mid stakes level), especially in the post-leg games today. As an actual "professional" myself I feel like although I've coached many players at the beginner levels to become relatively decent, I still can't help but feel like it's getting harder and harder to stay ahead of the learning curve without putting in a sick amount of dedication (both time and effort).
Also, variance is a huge bitch. A good player may be a long term winner, but "long term" is millions of hands. Poker is a game of skill, but luck is a huge factor even in 10-100k hand samples. The result is that it takes an extremely long time before you know whether you're playing well, and even the best players can lose tons of money.
Bonus for mentioning Neilly though. 
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On June 02 2009 16:00 ShadowDrgn wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2009 13:15 PanoRaMa wrote:
But I do think you should've devoted a section to discussing exactly how hard it is to become decent at this game (up to mid stakes level), especially in the post-leg games today. As an actual "professional" myself I feel like although I've coached many players at the beginner levels to become relatively decent, I still can't help but feel like it's getting harder and harder to stay ahead of the learning curve without putting in a sick amount of dedication (both time and effort). Also, variance is a huge bitch. A good player may be a long term winner, but "long term" is millions of hands. Poker is a game of skill, but luck is a huge factor even in 10-100k hand samples. The result is that it takes an extremely long time before you know whether you're playing well, and even the best players can lose tons of money. Bonus for mentioning Neilly though.
Agree completely.
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On June 02 2009 16:00 ShadowDrgn wrote:Also, variance is a huge bitch. A good player may be a long term winner, but "long term" is millions of hands. Poker is a game of skill, but luck is a huge factor even in 10-100k hand samples. The result is that it takes an extremely long time before you know whether you're playing well, and even the best players can lose tons of money. Bonus for mentioning Neilly though.
Yea variance is a huge bitch, but I believe it is also correlated to your edge over the other players/ how good you are at a current limit. For breakeven or <1bb players, sure they can have huge breakeven stretches and it might take a milion hands. But for those who absolutely crush the limits, this variance is much reduced.
Its hard to fathom a solid winner at 400nl to ever have any problems at NL2 over a 10-100k hand sample. Like wise if a nosebleed player dropped down to nl400 there would still be variance but it wont need such a huge sample as say 1 million hands for him to realise a sizable profit.
Thanks for the comments/feedback guys, ill edit some things in.
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Also, a small nitpick (but see it as a bump for your guide! :D)
but it kills me to see DC mentioned but FoxwoodsFiend's name not listed, yet Danzasmack, etc. are. Really??
Leggo too...no Sauce123? The guy is within the top 5, maybe 10 best HU players in the world most likely. Definitely on par with aejones (and I can say this as aejones was my coach for a good majority of 2008).
And finally, if BFP is to be mentioned, Samoleus and DrGiggy should be mentioned as well.
Your books section should kinda be clarified. The last one is for fixed limit. I would say probably all of those books have a considerable amount of improper or obsolete strategy as well (of course not the mathematical/technical theory). Regardless, I don't think thorough understanding of those books is ALL that's needed to beat the micros (which I consider to be to the extent of 50nl). With regards to that issue, I feel like your guide plays poker out to be a systematic routine which leads to profit, but at times it also throws in a concession (like only ~15% of players win or so). What I believe the true answer to be is a combination of both which isn't so black and white (what you say probably has application in 2006), and thus I feel like it's a bit misleading to those who are genuinely looking to start playing. I've made the same mistake before when I've written a (private) guide to starting poker, it's just not that clear cut and simple imo, so i feel like you should elaborate on that (which is basically what I mentioned in my first reply to this thread anyway ).
Either way I hope you get your key because I know this took a long time to write, and it has a lot of valid information .
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okay i made those name additions to the training sites.
For the book section, im listing the top books which will quicken the learning pace, to get them started beating the micros with the books poker players found to have helped them the most. I have to clarify that this guide is really just an introduction to the world of online poker, not a full step 1-10 guide l to start shipping teh monies.
I try not to go too indepth in the various sections cause its gonna become one long ass article which newbies might feel too daunting to read. Anyway I dont know how a total beginner can learn strategy any faster, and i feel the books are still very relevant today, tho they probably need much more knowledge to beat the stakes you play. Thanks for the comments, its good to have good poker players give constructive comments.
Would be awesome if a mod could move this to the Sports and Games section, so when some1 replies it actually gets bumped. Thanks!
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On June 02 2009 16:29 aLt)nirvana wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2009 16:00 ShadowDrgn wrote:Also, variance is a huge bitch. A good player may be a long term winner, but "long term" is millions of hands. Poker is a game of skill, but luck is a huge factor even in 10-100k hand samples. The result is that it takes an extremely long time before you know whether you're playing well, and even the best players can lose tons of money. Bonus for mentioning Neilly though. Yea variance is a huge bitch, but I believe it is also correlated to your edge over the other players/ how good you are at a current limit. For breakeven or <1bb players, sure they can have huge breakeven stretches and it might take a milion hands. But for those who absolutely crush the limits, this variance is much reduced. Its hard to fathom a solid winner at 400nl to ever have any problems at NL2 over a 10-100k hand sample. Like wise if a nosebleed player dropped down to nl400 there would still be variance but it wont need such a huge sample as say 1 million hands for him to realise a sizable profit. Thanks for the comments/feedback guys, ill edit some things in.
Lots of stupid rambling incoming:
I mean all of this is true but the reality is the majority of serious players don't play games where their edge is tremendous at the cost of a lower return. Technically I COULD grind 100nl for the rest of my life and make a good amount of money, but my end goal is to play much higher. So when I play 1knl I sacrifice a ton of immediate edge for a higher dollar amount return. This is true for again, the majority of serious players (ofc not all), so therefore where most people are playing is at a medium between what they usually prioritize as a higher return and a smaller edge.
And as you said, those who aren't as good (who have inherently smaller edges) have increased variance, but the players we have in mind aren't 200nl-ready players playing 50nl. They are 200nl-ready players playing 200nl. So now we have this entire subset of players who are willingly embracing higher variance, which brings us to the "good player" shadowdrgn mentioned.
I've talked to many high stakes players (I've studied the entire subject matter of "variance" quite a bit) about this and I think most are at a consensus that any given "good player" we mentioned, playing a stake (at least 200nl) he is well matched for can "run good" OR "bad" (ofc the mean runs roughly in-between) for as much as up to ~500k hands. Once again we're talking about typical 200, 400, 600, w/e regs playing their natural limit, not a limit they're too good for (i.e. 1knl player playing 200nl).
This is the real face of poker I was kind of addressing in my earlier posts, although what I've described is probably the most boring, depressing way to put it.
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On June 02 2009 19:40 aLt)nirvana wrote:okay i made those name additions to the training sites. For the book section, im listing the top books which will quicken the learning pace, to get them started beating the micros with the books poker players found to have helped them the most. I have to clarify that this guide is really just an introduction to the world of online poker, not a full step 1-10 guide l to start shipping teh monies. I try not to go too indepth in the various sections cause its gonna become one long ass article which newbies might feel too daunting to read. Anyway I dont know how a total beginner can learn strategy any faster, and i feel the books are still very relevant today, tho they probably need much more knowledge to beat the stakes you play. Thanks for the comments, its good to have good poker players give constructive comments. Would be awesome if a mod could move this to the Sports and Games section, so when some1 replies it actually gets bumped. Thanks!
Ya, my personality is just such that I like to cover my tracks so that people can never ever manage to get the "wrong idea". I try to be very very thorough when I'm explaining something (especially something I have as much passion for such as pokers). Bad traits to have, that's why I'm not submitting a pokers guide for a key
But yeah keep it up you're doing what I imagine to be a huge favor for a lot of people
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for some reason i cant edit the post anymore, hope a mod fixes / moves it to sports and games
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AND last thing before I sleep, I like that you're constantly adding more content, and clarifying a bunch of material etc. At first I thought "Hmm, should he be allowed to do this for the contest?" (as traditionally most "submissions" to a writing contest involve just 1 draft and that's it). But I guess in theory the "best" guides should be ones that are constantly changing and adapting and including the most relevant information. Otherwise you get what I mentioned as far as poker books go, very useful/relevant info at the time, but over time things ultimately seem to be lackluster or obsolete. GL on your key yo~
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The contest is from June1-14th so i guess no more updates after that.
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Sweden33719 Posts
Moved to sports&games by request
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This is a very nice guide. Props!
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Pretty funny write up, i enjoyed the read, although as a professional, nothing new here.
I actually have my own table on FTP :D... although sadly i dont play on it yet. It's too big
like many have said
"it's a tough way to make an easy living"
my advice to any sc players wanting to give it a try, don't quit your day job... when you start making more then your dayjob on the side, and have about 6 months worth of rent saved up.. then you can start to think, other then that i wouldn't even flirt with the idea.
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oh wow lmao, you're pokernubz? have you sat at your table at all this year?
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Nice guide, but it was somewhat confusing for someone like me, who is a complete beginner. For example, that first chart, what does rr, ur and r stand for? Please explain the chart to me.
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its a fullring (9player) limit starting hand chart
rr=reraised ur=uraised r=raised c=call f=fold
example: if u have JJ in late position, and its unraised (some1 might have called/limped but no1 has put in a raise) you raise. If some1 has raised or reraised b4 you, you just call
omg for some reason i cant edit my posts anymore. fixed the typo
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Sweden33719 Posts
Nirvana, are you able to edit your post yet? Otherwise I will bring it up with some of the tech:ier admins again :o
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ok this is one of my favorite topics now. I'm watching these cardrunners.com videos on youtube. This Taylor Caby guy is very interesting and I like his explanations.
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update: i can edit posts again yay
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what is up with all the advertisments saying you get free $$ if you register, lets name them pokerstrategy. 
in other words, is it possible to try online poker with real money without using your own money or is it all lie?
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On June 03 2009 22:42 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Nirvana, are you able to edit your post yet? Otherwise I will bring it up with some of the tech:ier admins again :o
start posting in LP again ><
NeillyAA is so epic he's such an idiot
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On June 04 2009 00:45 Corvi wrote:what is up with all the advertisments saying you get free $$ if you register, lets name them pokerstrategy. in other words, is it possible to try online poker with real money without using your own money or is it all lie?
i havent done it b4 but i believe its possible, but u have to pass all the conditions. technically speaking, i wouldn't call it "free" coz u "pay" that $100 back if u wanna withdraw in the form of rake, but if u grind alot and never ever wanna deposit, its a good place to start building ur bankroll. liquidpoker has this 100$ Full tilt deal.
conditions are it must be a new account, cannot live in china/columbia, u get 50 first but only get the other 50 in 5 increments every 83 points earned, and lastly - only can withdraw after earning 1000 points.
"For each dollar raked from a pot, every player who was dealt cards for that hand will receive 1 Full Tilt Point" so paying $100 of rake will give you alot less than 1000 points (not all pots will be more than $1, especially at the micros) and they earn the 100 they gave out back and more by taking rake from you.
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Good job sir. I used to play online for mid stakes, and I recently deposited again to play some 25 NL just for fun. Needless to say, the post legislation game is a little tougher because I've never been 3 bet at 25NL in my life as much as I do on there (maybe cause I'm comparing FT to pre-leg bodog lol) but a 17/9 will still crush games even while playing like a robot.
With that said, it definitely takes a certain kind of personality to play online poker full time. I used to be able to play for 5 or 6 hours straight across 6 tables with an absurd amount of focus and disregard for money, but now I just can't do it anymore. I would say the two most important qualities as an online player are steam control and being honest with yourself when analyzing hands. Learn from your mistakes; do not try to rationalize why you did what in order to make yourself feel better which results in you continuing to make losing plays.
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If you want to play without depositing, play for some playmoney on pokerstars and then when you accumulate between 1.5mil -2.5 mil you can sell it for 15$ - 25$ and start off with that. Basically once you have the basics down and just play somewhat solid it's very easy to make a lot of playmoney. This is how I and many others got started.
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From a person who is good at poker and has seen people come and go:
Emotional control is everything. No matter how smart, how creative and how amazing a person / starcraft player you are, if you can't deal with the inevitable bad beats / coolers /downswings you will not make it at poker.
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woot Ivan Demidov was a starcraft player??
I had no idea
that guy is so freaking good.. (in poker I mean ^^)
geez he even went to Korea? Weird how they never mention that in poker shows while they always mention that when Elky's playing
I guess that explains why he has an Asian gf ^^
Being a Zerg player I guess Ill never be a succesful poker player
Although Ive made at least like 1200$ playing it but now whenever I play (which is almost never) I lose and im too busy studying to invest any more time in it to get good again and stop my unlucky streak.
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This is phenomenal. It really makes me want to get into poker. The responses seem to indicate to the uninitiated like myself that it really is valuable and of good quality. Thanks!
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after reading all these ,i still dunno the rules about poker
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Sweden33719 Posts
On June 06 2009 13:06 justiceknight wrote:
after reading all these ,i still dunno the rules about poker
Finding the rules of poker (most popular form is No Limit Hold'Em) takes about 10 seconds with a google search tho..
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You left out Hevad 'rain' Khan and Ryan 'Big Balls' Daut in the opening paragraph. And fuck, I am a zerg player, no wonder I suck online.
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what does UR mean in that stoxpoker chart? :/
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I started my grind in april, cashed a freeroll tourney for 2 bucks, and after playing about 10 hours a week I'm up to 90 bucks at 2NL (taking shots at at 5NL now) and $2.20 HUSNGs (damn the high rake, can't wait till I'm rolled for 5.25s).
The games might be getting harder or something but a complete newbie can still come in and beat the micros with no experience whatsoever. So get on board!
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Is there a possibility of making ~15$ an hour with online poker with only a few weeks experience? I don't know much about poker, but I would learn extremely fast if I could avoid the mediocre minimum wage jobs.
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On April 29 2012 05:09 DeltruS wrote:
Is there a possibility of making ~15$ an hour with online poker with only a few weeks experience? I don't know much about poker, but I would learn extremely fast if I could avoid the mediocre minimum wage jobs.
possible yes. but you gotta be made for it in various ways and alot of guys have the same idea as you but 90+% fail even at basic low limit grinding.
put 5$ and play for fun/learning. slowly build a br and step up limits.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://knol.google.com/k/-/-/2d3sme8l1xe89/pf2x26/starting-hand-chart.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://knol.google.com/k/-/-/2d3sme8l1xe89/pf2x26/thebryce2007yearendpt.jpg)
