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a dominant shooting guard can put up amazing numbers, but he will not make your team that much better. The best player in the world can't lead you to a championship by himself. Look at Kobe Bryant, he's had 4 years to make it worth without Shaq, and sure they were ok with him, but they weren't excelling.
By your argument, an elite halfback is also not nearly as useful without an offensive line to block for him, nor without a halfway decent quarterback to take the pressure off of him. Barry Sanders led the lions to a few 10-6 12-4 seasons, but there are just as many 6-10 and 5-11 seasons mixed in there as well.
if anything, your argument that with an average qb the vikings would have won the division strengthens my argument. semi decent halfbacks are a lot easier to find than decent quarterbacks. the same shitty backup quarterbacks bounce around the league year after year because decent steady talent (for whatever reason) seems to be a rarity.
Basically, my point is this. If you have to build a football team from scratch, are you really going to pick your runningback first? If you would, then we just have differing opinions
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On September 18 2008 13:04 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2008 10:43 KOFgokuon wrote:interesting article about drafting quarterbacks early when you don't have an established player already there http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=keown/080916I mean it's kind of obvious in some respects, if you let your player have a couple of years to develop then naturally he'll be better when he actually starts to play. The inherent problem is that you just never know when your quarterback is gonna go down or start to decline rapidly I haven't finished the article yet, but I absolutely hate people who say that the QB is the most important position in any sport. It's just not true. They're probably the most important guy on the offense, but that statement doesn't even come close to true. I can't stand people who put that much importance on a single player/position in football. I do agree with his statement about no players being asked to learn as much, as quickly, as NFL quarterbacks. That much is true, but that doesn't change their importance on the field. Imagine Peyton Manning on the Dolphins. Would they be better? Yes, without a doubt. Would they be as good as the Colts? Not a chance. The whole team is in shambles; one player simply cannot make that big of a difference there.
That article is full of so much BS. I'm sorry but you really can't predict QBs... or at least I think so. Can you really predict the level of play a QB's going to give you when you draft him?
Tom Brady - 6th rounder
Peyton Manning - 1st rounder (started every game in his first season)
Drew Brees - 2nd rounder
Phillip Rivers - 1st rounder
Matt Hasslebeck - 6th rounder
Kurt Warner - undrafted
Carson Palmer - 1st rounder
Tony Romo - undrafted
Derek Anderson - 6th rounder
Donovan McNabb - 1st rounder (played most of his first season)
Ben Roethlisberger - 1st rounder (started most of his first season)
Jay Cutler - 1st rounder
Aaron Rodgers - 1st rounder
These are all qb's who I consider good to great (although I have my doubts on Anderson). You know what I can conclude about this? Don't draft a QB in the mid rounds.
Finally, anyone who rates Alex Smith as the worst draft pick in history obviously wasn't following football when Ryan Leaf was drafted.
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well, let's remove peyon mcnabb and roethlisberger from the equation for now
brady -- drafted while they had bledsoe
cutler -- drafted when they had plummer, though he started mid season, I think he would have been better off on the bench the whole year
rodgers -- drafted when they had favre, able to study for 3 years
brady quinn -- drafted when they had anderson (then again who knew anderson was any good at the time), apparently looks very good and probably will take the starting job this year
warner -- found when they had trent green, sat on the bench for a year and studied the offense
rivers -- drafted when they had brees (who also wasn't very good yet, to be fair), but was able to sit on the bench and learn
hassleback -- drafted when the packers had favre (and sat for 2 years learning and getting better before going to seattle)
carson palmer -- bengals at least had kitna who was servicable, and weren't going anywhere fast so the bengals could sit palmer for a while so he study
romo -- sat on the bench for 1.5 years behind bledsoe learning the offense and getting better
daunte culpepper sat for a year, and burst out in his second year with ridiculous numbers.
Now let's look at a few of the quarterbacks who started from day 1 and bombed/semi bombed. akili smith, alex smith, joey harrington, eli manning (just kidding, I still think he sucks though), vince young (arguable), matt leinart (also arguable), ryan leaf
drafting quarterbacks is definitely a crap shoot. But I still think you're better off drafting a quarterback a little later, and allowing him to develop in the system for a while before throwing him onto the field. Having a consistent offensive coordinator with the same offensive system will help immensely as well, of course
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On September 18 2008 13:55 KOFgokuon wrote:
a dominant shooting guard can put up amazing numbers, but he will not make your team that much better. The best player in the world can't lead you to a championship by himself. Look at Kobe Bryant, he's had 4 years to make it worth without Shaq, and sure they were ok with him, but they weren't excelling.
By your argument, an elite halfback is also not nearly as useful without an offensive line to block for him, nor without a halfway decent quarterback to take the pressure off of him. Barry Sanders led the lions to a few 10-6 12-4 seasons, but there are just as many 6-10 and 5-11 seasons mixed in there as well.
if anything, your argument that with an average qb the vikings would have won the division strengthens my argument. semi decent halfbacks are a lot easier to find than decent quarterbacks. the same shitty backup quarterbacks bounce around the league year after year because decent steady talent (for whatever reason) seems to be a rarity.
Basically, my point is this. If you have to build a football team from scratch, are you really going to pick your runningback first? If you would, then we just have differing opinions
No, I would probably pick my OLine first.
Also, my argument doesn't strengthen yours, because the QB would need Adrian Peterson to be there in order for his team to win. Without AP on that team, they're not even considered a contender right now.
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On September 18 2008 14:00 nemY wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2008 13:04 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote:On September 18 2008 10:43 KOFgokuon wrote:interesting article about drafting quarterbacks early when you don't have an established player already there http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=keown/080916I mean it's kind of obvious in some respects, if you let your player have a couple of years to develop then naturally he'll be better when he actually starts to play. The inherent problem is that you just never know when your quarterback is gonna go down or start to decline rapidly I haven't finished the article yet, but I absolutely hate people who say that the QB is the most important position in any sport. It's just not true. They're probably the most important guy on the offense, but that statement doesn't even come close to true. I can't stand people who put that much importance on a single player/position in football. I do agree with his statement about no players being asked to learn as much, as quickly, as NFL quarterbacks. That much is true, but that doesn't change their importance on the field. Imagine Peyton Manning on the Dolphins. Would they be better? Yes, without a doubt. Would they be as good as the Colts? Not a chance. The whole team is in shambles; one player simply cannot make that big of a difference there. That article is full of so much BS. I'm sorry but you really can't predict QBs... or at least I think so. Can you really predict the level of play a QB's going to give you when you draft him? Tom Brady - 6th rounder Peyton Manning - 1st rounder (started every game in his first season) Drew Brees - 2nd rounder Phillip Rivers - 1st rounder Matt Hasslebeck - 6th rounder Kurt Warner - undrafted Carson Palmer - 1st rounder Tony Romo - undrafted Derek Anderson - 6th rounder Donovan McNabb - 1st rounder (played most of his first season) Ben Roethlisberger - 1st rounder (started most of his first season) Jay Cutler - 1st rounder Aaron Rodgers - 1st rounder These are all qb's who I consider good to great (although I have my doubts on Anderson). You know what I can conclude about this? Don't draft a QB in the mid rounds. Finally, anyone who rates Alex Smith as the worst draft pick in history obviously wasn't following football when Ryan Leaf was drafted.
Joe Montana was drafted in the third round. I know that's a rarity, but so is Brady in the 6th. Anderson doesn't have a large enough body of work yet, and he seems to be very Grossman-like (who was a first rounder, btw).
If you get a guy in the late first round, he's normally not that good. I think the only guy in the late first round to ever do really well was Dan Marino, and now Rodgers. I hope for the same sort of success from Brady Quinn (ND fan here).
Eli should be on that list, imo. He was able to sit for just five weeks before playing when Warner got hurt. He wasn't very good until his fourth year, though.
McNabb saw very limited action for the first nine games of his first season, btw. He didn't start until week 10.
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Wasn't Vince Young the offensive rookie of the year?
Edit: This was in response to KOFgokuon calling him a bust, but I guess you did say it was aguable. Also, is there a reason that you threw out McNabb, Manning, and Roethlisberger other than the fact that they do not conform to the theory?
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On September 18 2008 15:37 Pangolin wrote:
Wasn't Vince Young the offensive rookie of the year?
Edit: This was in response to KOFgokuon calling him a bust, but I guess you did say it was aguable. Also, is there a reason that you threw out McNabb, Manning, and Roethlisberger other than the fact that they do not conform to the theory?
Yes he was OROY, but it looks like he was a one year wonder. Not to mention his passer rating was still complete shit. Teams had a difficult time, at first, keeping him contained. Once they started playing VY for the run more than the pass, the team didn't win as often (not that they won a LOT in his first year, they were 9-7).
Those guys are kept out because they are exceptions to the rule. Ben is only an exception because he had an extraordinary team to carry him in his first season. He's really not that good, in fact, I'd go as far as to say he's probably the most overrated QB in the league currently. I'll explain more later but I have to go.
Okay, my explanation on Ben:
First of all, he can't read defense pre-snap very well. Evidence in this is shown in the amount of times he gets sacked per year. He needs to be able to call out the blitzers so his offensive linemen are able to pick those up. Granted, they did have some issues on their line last year, so we'll give him a pass on that one, but he's not really that great at it anyway. He hangs onto the ball for WAY too long on many occasions. Again, the sack total against him can be partially attributed to this. Another example of a QB who held on to the ball too long, and made his O-Line look terrible was David Carr in Houston. Yes, Ben is a lot better than Carr was, but that doesn't change the fact that he holds onto the ball for too long. What the Steelers are amazing at doing is establishing a run game and then throwing off of the play action. That's a luxury David Carr never had.
Ben Roethlisberger often shows questionable decision making. He throws a pick, on average, every 28 attempts. By contrast to other top QB's:
Tony Romo 1INT/27Att
Eli Manning 1INT/29Att
Brett Favre/Kurt Warner 1INT/30Att
Carson Palmer 1INT/31Att
Jay Cutler 1INT/34Att
Peyton Manning 1INT/35Att
Matt Hasselbeck 1INT/36Att
Drew Brees/Philip Rivers 1INT/38Att
Tom Brady 1INT/42Att
Donovan McNabb 1INT/48Att
Kurt Warner may not be considered a top QB by many on this board, but I feel he has the team to be a top QB now. You have to cut him, Palmer, and Favre some slack, due to playing on some really bad teams for a while. Tony Romo's decision making has, at times, been questioned. Generally it isn't, and his stats are distorted partially by his 6 INT game, but the fact that he threw that many INT's in a single game should say something about his decision making at times. And there is no doubt that Eli Manning's decision making skills are constantly questioned.
The rest of those QB's are at least six attempts above him. That doesn't seem like a whole lot of attempts, but imagine an offense getting to stay on the field during a single drive for six additional plays, and what they could potentially do with those. Even throughout an entire game, six additional plays can account for several touchdowns, or FG's. I think an average drive is somewhere around eight to 10 plays, though I have no statistics for that.
To me, Ben Roethlisberger is a bigger, stronger version of a guy like Brad Johnson. He's efficient, and he probably won't hurt your team, but he's not going to generally win games for you, (Ben is 6-8 in games of +25 passes) and he definitely doesn't belong in the top five QB's.
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Kansas City vs Atlanta
Oakland vs Buffalo
Cincinnati vs NY Giants
Miami vs New England
Houston vs Tennessee
Tampa Bay vs Chicago
Arizona vs Washington
Carolina vs Minnesota
New Orleans vs Denver
Detroit vs San Francisco
St Louis vs Seattle
Pittsburgh vs Philadelphia
Cleveland vs Baltimore
Jacksonville vs Indianapolis
Dallas vs Green Bay
NY Jets vs San Diego
I picked a shitload of home teams this week goddamn
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Austin10833 Posts
I have AP, Julius Jones and Ryan Grant in one of my FF leagues, who should I sit assuming all 3 start? Right know I'm leaning towards benching Grant.
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Kansas City vs Atlanta
Oakland vs Buffalo
Cincinnati vs NY Giants
Miami vs New England
Houston vs Tennessee
Tampa Bay vs Chicago
Arizona vs Washington
Carolina vs Minnesota
New Orleans vs Denver
Detroit vs
St Louis vs Seattle
Pittsburgh vs Philadelphia
Cleveland vs Baltimore
Jacksonville vs Indianapolis
Dallas vs Green Bay
NY Jets vs San Diego
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On September 21 2008 11:33 BroOd wrote:
I have AP, Julius Jones and Ryan Grant in one of my FF leagues, who should I sit assuming all 3 start? Right know I'm leaning towards benching Grant.
I would agree but be careful because I heard that Peterson is injured and will be a game time decision.
Kansas City vs Atlanta
Oakland vs Buffalo
Cincinnati vs NY Giants
Miami vs New England
Houston vs Tennessee
Tampa Bay vs Chicago
Arizona vs Washington
Carolina vs Minnesota
New Orleans vs Denver
Detroit vs San Francisco
St Louis vs Seattle
Pittsburgh vs Philadelphia
Cleveland vs Baltimore
Jacksonville vs Indianapolis
Dallas vs Green Bay
NY Jets vs San Diego
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i have a feeling matt ryan is going to be a very good qb in this league
they way he lead the offense in the second half cannot be taught, its purely intangebles
at first i was upset the falcons drafted him, but now im very excited
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Kansas City vs Atlanta
Oakland vs Buffalo
Cincinnati vs NY Giants
Miami vs New England
Houston vs Tennessee
Tampa Bay vs Chicago
Arizona vs Washington
Carolina vs Minnesota
New Orleans vs Denver
Detroit vs San Francisco
St Louis vs Seattle
Pittsburgh vs Philadelphia
Cleveland vs Baltimore
Jacksonville vs Indianapolis
Dallas vs Green Bay
NY Jets vs San Diego
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
hopefully we see a different seattle this week... they had a nice shootout last week but losing at home after starting out 0-1 is REAL bad for them  Had no idea the WR situation was going to hurt them this bad.
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Before it was only the top 3 players at WR that were out. Now it is the top 6!! It has to be the first time 6 players are injured at the same position. It is so bad that they actually signed Koren Robinsen, even after all the troubles that he has had on and off the field.
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Kansas City vs Atlanta
Oakland vs Buffalo
Cincinnati vs NY Giants
Miami vs New England
Houston vs Tennessee
Tampa Bay vs Chicago
Arizona vs Washington
Carolina vs Minnesota
New Orleans vs Denver
Detroit vs San Francisco
St Louis vs Seattle
Pittsburgh vs Philadelphia
Cleveland vs Baltimore
Jacksonville vs Indianapolis
Dallas vs Green Bay
NY Jets vs San Diego
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little late but I have yet to look at any game scores yet 
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I doubt you didn't look at the scores. --;
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Miami Dolphins! Miami Dolphins! :-D R. Brown > Patriots! Miami Dolphins number 1. To bad, Brady wasn't playing (for the rest of the season).
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.i-nflhelmet.com/49ers4.gif)
