EPT[HoN/DotA] Let's Play~!! - Page 1077
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semantics
10040 Posts
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DefMatrixUltra
Canada1992 Posts
I've played 5-6 games now and am getting used to the idea of dying at least a handful of times every game. In LoL, I could usually get out with 0 or 1 death every game but that was probably because of artificially deflated matchmaking rating. Whoever said the game was more fast paced than LoL was correct. It's ironic because the games tend to be "much" longer and the abilities far less spammy. But in LoL, you generally tend to whittle someone down over time using superior micro or creep control, thereby winning the lane by causing your opponent to b or succumb to an inevitable death. I would guess that the solo lanes are more like that, but I've only played 2v2 lanes. In those lanes, you can die in a split second if you get caught out of position. Absolutely nothing like LoL, at least from my grasshopper perspective. ==== One big issue I have is with the "weak" and "strong" lanes. The "weak" lane is whatever lane has the halfway point where you are standing with the river entrance to your back. This is really scary in HoN, especially since I'm very much about map awareness and am used to Flash/Ghost bullshit in LoL. How do you deal with these lanes? Do you concentrate on denying more? What is the strategy here? I know a ward watching the rune spawn would cover it, but I often end up having to buy the courier and buying wards in addition just gimps a hero too hard for my comfort. On the flip side, the strong lane seems imba. I play fearlessly in that lane. What's even more BS is that you can pull the lane with jungle creeps if it somehow gets pushed to the river entrance. === About item builds: what kind of thought goes into making an item build for a hero? I know there are 1001 guides on every hero, but I'm more interested in understanding the justification behind starting items and item progression and things like that. A few thoughts I have so far: . Stats are really strong early on and minor totems are very cost-effective in comparison to other choices so I like getting 3 of these on pretty much everyone. . A lot of guides suggested Power Supply so I tried it out. It seems really weak. Someone want to set me straight? Blood Chalice looks way better overall, though it doesn't build from the nice cheap totems. . You always want a space for teleport stones. === Chronos. I don't really care if he's not powerful or not part of the current metagame or whatever. He is fucking badass, and I want to become familiar with him. From what I've seen, he's had ups and downs in terms of nerfs and that may explain why item builds are the way they are. Getting the Axe (the treecutter thing) seems non-optional on him since he wants to farm like a madman. I like getting the Iron Shield too since it has nice synergy with his Rewind (even just 1 level of it). I definitely do like going Sustainer --> Runed Axe since he just tears up the jungle with Runed Axe while his lane is pushed. However, I really dislike Elder Parasite that everyone and their mother suggests on him. Maybe I'm stupid or something but it just doesn't seem as good/useful as getting Geometer's Bane. Also, the idea of taking even more damage seems bad. I know you're theoretically supposed to use it after you ult, but Geometer's Bane increases your damage AND can save your ass. Someone set me straight here. | ||
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don_kyuhote
3006 Posts
On November 10 2010 14:13 semantics wrote: I love shadow priest though, get a skiddi on him or maybe burizra Nah, just get desolator and orchid and assault curiass. Ult and melt your enemy like sticking hot knife through a butter. | ||
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semantics
10040 Posts
On November 10 2010 17:00 don_kyuhote wrote: Nah, just get desolator and orchid and assault curiass. Ult and melt your enemy like sticking hot knife through a butter. Well those are likable items that work for a sp carry this is about incompetence. | ||
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rabidch
United States20289 Posts
i dunno how TR is gonna fare LOL btw DTS is balling i just hope now they fix that crappy ass stream worst stream i ever watched ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/XGxgk.jpg) ArtStyle lookin kinda younger there, wow when did Dendi get so old | ||
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Superbia
Netherlands8889 Posts
On November 10 2010 16:48 DefMatrixUltra wrote: Ok guys it's time to pick on a HoN noob. Those of you complaining about inactivity should be pleased. I've played 5-6 games now and am getting used to the idea of dying at least a handful of times every game. In LoL, I could usually get out with 0 or 1 death every game but that was probably because of artificially deflated matchmaking rating. Whoever said the game was more fast paced than LoL was correct. It's ironic because the games tend to be "much" longer and the abilities far less spammy. But in LoL, you generally tend to whittle someone down over time using superior micro or creep control, thereby winning the lane by causing your opponent to b or succumb to an inevitable death. I would guess that the solo lanes are more like that, but I've only played 2v2 lanes. In those lanes, you can die in a split second if you get caught out of position. Absolutely nothing like LoL, at least from my grasshopper perspective. One big issue I have is with the "weak" and "strong" lanes. The "weak" lane is whatever lane has the halfway point where you are standing with the river entrance to your back. This is really scary in HoN, especially since I'm very much about map awareness and am used to Flash/Ghost bullshit in LoL. How do you deal with these lanes? Do you concentrate on denying more? What is the strategy here? I know a ward watching the rune spawn would cover it, but I often end up having to buy the courier and buying wards in addition just gimps a hero too hard for my comfort. On the flip side, the strong lane seems imba. I play fearlessly in that lane. What's even more BS is that you can pull the lane with jungle creeps if it somehow gets pushed to the river entrance. It depends entirely on the strategy you are running. Since you are probably playing in a public game (2 to 4 unknowns on your team) I'm going to assume you run a classic 2/1/2 (2 on long lane, or weak lane as you call it, 1 in middle, 2 on short lane, or strong lane as you call it). Usually the 2 heroes put on the long lane will usually have a disable each, are able to deal damage from a distance and synergize to some extend. Examples of a good top duo: - Magmus/Pyromancer: A very "oldschool" lineup. Magmus will be able to stun in on an hero after which pyro connects with his stun and nukes. - Magmus/Valkyrie: Magmus will be able to stun in on an hero, Valkyrie will connect with her arrow. Additionally, both of these heroes have some sort of escape mechanism. - Behemoth/Valkyrie: Behemoth will be able to separate the 2 heroes with a fissure, Valkyrie will be able to connect the fissure stun with an arrow and pick the separated hero off. - Soul Reaper/Accursed: Neither have a disable, but can heal each other, making for a very tanky lane. Keep in mind that Accursed's shield removes debuffs on target. Ward wise you should ward their pull and a spot that both protects you and spots the rune. You want to always be able to do is control the lane (in every lane obviously). The further you can get them away from the tower the better. Several tips: - The legion long lane can actually pull at 15/45 from the camp to the right (additionally you can pull that camp at 53/23 to near their tower). - If you are up against something like tanky hero/squishy support (e.g. Armadon/Demented Shaman) focus on the support. The tanky hero will usually be too hard to take out (especially when supported) and he won't be able to farm without his babysit. - If the wave is close to their tower you can actually push a little so their tower helps taking out your wave, pushing the wave towards your tower. - You can start attacking your own creeps at ~1/2 hp. Of course this concept fades away when it comes to trilanes, but you usually don't see those in public games. On November 10 2010 16:48 DefMatrixUltra wrote: About item builds: what kind of thought goes into making an item build for a hero? I know there are 1001 guides on every hero, but I'm more interested in understanding the justification behind starting items and item progression and things like that. A few thoughts I have so far: . Stats are really strong early on and minor totems are very cost-effective in comparison to other choices so I like getting 3 of these on pretty much everyone. This is a really hard subject to cover. It depends on: - Your hero (e.g. buckler or hatchet as first items on a ranged is rare). - Your role (e.g. getting courier or/and wards if you're a support). - Your skill build (e.g. can be more or less mana intensive). - Your lane setup (e.g. getting a Ring of the Teacher in a push heavy lane). - Their possible lane setup (e.g. going Mana Battery as one of your first items if you expect a 1v1 vs Thunder Bringer). - Their actual lane setup (e.g. I ended up facing a Pebbles instead, so I'll get mystic vestments at some point). Your team as a whole (e.g. We're all very ability spam heavy, so I'm going for Nome's Wisdom). Their team as a whole (e.g. They have a heavy aoe magic team, so I get a Barrier Idol). - How the game progresses (e.g. We have map control and are in a good position, get a Bound Eye to enforce your map control and position). Keep in mind that I give "hard" examples, it's usually more delicate since it's a combination of all those things. I recommend checking out pro replays and see what items they get, while taking note of things I mentioned. On November 10 2010 16:48 DefMatrixUltra wrote: . A lot of guides suggested Power Supply so I tried it out. It seems really weak. Someone want to set me straight? Blood Chalice looks way better overall, though it doesn't build from the nice cheap totems. Power supply was recently nerfed so the guides are probably somewhat out of date. It's still a very good item and if you get 2 totems as starter items I don't see why you shouldn't get it. For blood chalice refer to the item section. It's a circumstantial item that's good on certain heroes, but you shouldn't get it on everyone. On November 10 2010 16:48 DefMatrixUltra wrote: You always want a space for teleport stones. Absolutely, encourage your team to do this too (although they probably won't). On November 10 2010 16:48 DefMatrixUltra wrote: Chronos. I don't really care if he's not powerful or not part of the current metagame or whatever. He is fucking badass, and I want to become familiar with him. From what I've seen, he's had ups and downs in terms of nerfs and that may explain why item builds are the way they are. Getting the Axe (the treecutter thing) seems non-optional on him since he wants to farm like a madman. I like getting the Iron Shield too since it has nice synergy with his Rewind (even just 1 level of it). I definitely do like going Sustainer --> Runed Axe since he just tears up the jungle with Runed Axe while his lane is pushed. However, I really dislike Elder Parasite that everyone and their mother suggests on him. Maybe I'm stupid or something but it just doesn't seem as good/useful as getting Geometer's Bane. Also, the idea of taking even more damage seems bad. I know you're theoretically supposed to use it after you ult, but Geometer's Bane increases your damage AND can save your ass. Someone set me straight here. Getting a Runed Axe is great as long as you can get it within a certain time period (if you can't get it before 25m, don't bother imo). Also getting Steam Boots should have a higher priority than getting a Runed Axe. Elder Parasite can be good as long as you can make sure you can trap the important heroes inside your ult (e.g. if a Witch Slayer isn't caught in your ult, activating your EP is pretty much suicide). Geometers Bane is a weird item on melee hero, since the illusions usually get in the way (it's a nightmare when you're trying to chase). Overall it's still a good item, especially since the heroes inside your ult can't move. Overall: Chronos is a squishy hero that adds little to a lane but has a strong late game. | ||
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Alventenie
United States2147 Posts
Power supply is actually a really good item. Its one of the few items that repays itself very quickly. A 15 charge power supply gives you 150 hp/225 mana back, something that costs in term more than 1 tango (30 gold) and 1-2 clarities (100 gold). It's also instant, so its much better for saving you in the heat of battle than either tangoes or clarities. Overall it is a strong item in team fights (everyone gets charges from spells) and you can save the charges for when you need them to save yourself, or get mana to cast a spell to finish off an enemy hero. | ||
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DefMatrixUltra
Canada1992 Posts
Superbia, what do you mean by the "item section"? Something in this thread? I realize you wouldn't get Blood Chalice on anyone, but it seems like a much better item if you have some way of getting a heal (like if you bought additional regen or something). Good point also about Geometer's Bane being weird on melee. The pathing drawback hadn't occurred to me at all. The thing I like about it is the good stats and the debuff removal, kind of like Cleanse in LoL. Alventenie, you have a good point about proccing the stuns faster. However, here's what I see (the perspective of a noob) when I compare EP to GB: I could pay about the same amount for a. Lifesteal [Attack Speed, possible Damage to Self] (EP) b. Loads of stats (Blessed Orb) c. Attack Speed, Damage, and Movespeed (Firebrand) Assuming I have Runed Axe, a) Seems particularly good for ganking but not so much for big teamfights (I don't always have control over who I can and can't get in my ult). b) Seems good for ganking or teamfights (lots of health, mana, and a little bit of armor/aspd/damage). c) Movespeed is really nice when you're basically just farming wherever you can. Blessed Orb seems like the most favorable option to me since it provides the most survivability in each situation, and you can't deal damage if you're dead. At best, EP could really destroy a teamfight if you're not focused or if you catch all the dangerous heroes in your ult. However, at worst it could end up the opposite - destroying a teamfight because I stupidly instagibbed myself. In a bad situation (my ult isn't up or I didn't catch e.g. Pyro in it), I'm paying a bunch of gold for Lifesteal instead of damage/aspd/health. Additionally, if the game drags on, EP retains its usefulness (or uselessness), but Blessed Orb can be built into GB which provides good survivability in its debuff removal (you're a little bit less likely to get smoked by a gank when jungling or something). The benefits of going GB seem to outweigh the benefits of going EP from my noobie perspective. | ||
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Superbia
Netherlands8889 Posts
On November 11 2010 04:29 DefMatrixUltra wrote:Superbia, what do you mean by the "item section"? Something in this thread? I meant the part I wrote about item choices. | ||
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Entertaining
Canada793 Posts
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Alventenie
United States2147 Posts
Both have their uses, it just depends on what you want. Some games as Chronos i've gone str treads HotBL Headdress because i needed to take lots of damage for my team, other times i've gone treads EP Savage mace for a lot of damage. You should evaluate the game where you have Chronos, and see what you need to do in that game, then decide what you want to buy. You shouldn't make yourself think that because you have Chronos you should go one item build, some games you farm well, others you don't. Being adaptable is the best thing you can be in most games. | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
You should come with an optimal build and adjust accordingly. What that optimal build is will depend largely on your team and their team. The adjustments come when the game is actually being played and you get more information on what's going on. There are no "right" answers to the question you are asking and depends on a multitude of factors...just off the top of my head: -Playstyle of the team -Playstyle of the player -Playstyle of the opposing team -Game progression -Etc. Notice that all of that shit is hero-independent but directly affect how you would play any given hero. | ||
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DefMatrixUltra
Canada1992 Posts
In LoL, there are items called elixirs that give you a ridiculous boost in powerful stats that are cheap (only cost 300 gold each) but are limited in time. If you are about to lose the game, you want to drop all your money on these elixirs to boost your team in hopes of winning the next team fight. Similarly, if you are about to win the game, you wanna drop all your money on them just to make sure your killing blow is as lethal as you expect. On many occasions, someone gets an important item (like your carry farms up their super-damage item) so you want to get an elixir to make sure you can win the upcoming teamfight (even though the game is not necessarily on the line). Those examples that Alventenie gave for Chronos builds are really good and connected the dots in my brain very rapidly. There is an exact correlation between what he was talking about and what I've experienced in LoL (when games don't go as you expect them to). | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
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Ack1027
United States7873 Posts
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stanley_
United States816 Posts
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rabidch
United States20289 Posts
MYM vs Nirvana.my atm v1lat interview http://dota.178.com/201011/83413659257.html | ||
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stanley_
United States816 Posts
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Trizz
Netherlands1318 Posts
On November 11 2010 16:45 stanley_ wrote: it's the battle of the buybacks and guinsoos what am i missing? | ||
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rabidch
United States20289 Posts
tyj.lgd vs mym oh yes and ehome got knocked out? lloolololollo gj dts EDIT: oh damn.... that game was GOOD MYM almost had it but made some mistakes | ||
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