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I'm a pretty casual SSBM player and I never really bothered to figure out how to do advanced techniques however there's been some stuff that always bothered me.
I wavedash with a few chars but I never know [ or can tell from videos ] if people use the x/y buttons or use the ctrl stick or if it's all preference. Basically what's the exact method.
Also, I see a lot of edgeguarding kills that involve say Marth for example hanging on the edge and then doing a short hop up and using his downspike without fast falling. I was just wondering what direction or button do you press while you're hanging on the edge to get a nice hop like that. I do know that if you put more pressure downwards on the dspike you'll go down faster.
That's it! Thanks for the help in advance.
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Use xy for jump almost always. There are certain exceptions to this rule, but it's really character specific. Whichever way you learn to wavedash, i suggest you make sure to shield with the other button (so if you WD with L, shield with R or vice versa). will simplify stuff later on
as for the edgehop, i prefer to use down on control stick, simply because if you press sideways, you're DI'ing the wrong way, whereas if you jump fast enough (aka immediately) the extra fall speed is not noticeable, and it's much easier to DI towards the stage right away. i wouldn't use ledgehopped aerials as an edgeguard though; there are usually better alternatives, especially for marth
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Try to use primarily Y to jump because the it's ever so slightly closer to the B button than X is. X is nice for C-Sticking aerials and whatnot, so try to get accustomed to using both depending on what the situation demands. Y is still what you want to use primarily, though. Most Fox and Falco players that use X have a lot of trouble learning to waveshine and other shine tricks because X is just annoyingly far from the B button, so if you're just starting out, try to get used to Y if you can.
Never use the Control Stick to wavedash, that's just bad. You can be pretty much assured that no top players play like that.
With Marth, to do the trick that you described, you would hang on the ledge, hit down all the way to fastfall OR lightly hit down OR lightly hit back to let go of the edge and then depending on how high you want to jump, either press jump immediately after or wait a tiny bit before hitting jump (certain characters jump higher than others and if you want to land in an exact spot on the ledge, you'll want to time the jump accordingly) and then either LIGHTLY hold down on the control stick and press A or just hit C-Stick down while you're jumping. The latter is preferred because you can control your character to the left or right more easily.
And it's not how much pressure (whatever the hell that means) you have on Marth's spike that sends them flying downward (spikes them), it's which part of his sword hits them. If the very tip of it hits them, they are gonna get spiked and unless they have low damage and a good recovery, they're probably not coming back onto the stage.
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Braavos36374 Posts
milktoast is 100% right
i use Y, but i actually know a few foxes and falco's that use X, and they are ridiculously fast to do the shine+wd combos. do not use the control stick to jump. only use it to fastfall or directional influence. use the control stick for aerials, especially down aerials so that you don't influence your di.
he also described the right way to get back from the ledge using down+jump, its a fine timing that you probably won't get on the first try. not all characters can do it either.
as for your marth spike question, your downward momentum is not affected at all by the move you do but rather if you press down to fastfall.
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For wavedashing, it's totally up to preference. There are people who wavedash and jump with the stick and they're very good (notably some people from Florida). They look like weirdos but they do what works for them, so do what works for you.
I once asked Isai how he did some of his techniques and to my surprise, he didn't use any of the little "shortcuts" that people have found out for doing various techniques (falcon's aaa, etc). He used whatever worked for him and practiced it till perfection.
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Braavos36374 Posts
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
Yeah, basically, like everyone said: Always use x/y to jump (i find it helps with getting that wavedash rhythm down), and always use the c-stick for aerials. You obviously can succeed without doing either of those all the time, but they are good habits.
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Thanks for all the great replies guys.
To clarify I meant that if you ' dashed ' or put extra pressure on down you would fast fall and if you just tilted it very slightly you would not fastfall. I did not mean the enemy would go down faster because you mashed the controller in said direction.
So again let's use marth as an example: ' When you are chase/comboing with marth with short hops, [ I think it's called shffling ] am I seeing using purely x/y and c stick only during this entire combo?
Also it seems very difficult to me to do some advanced stuff because it seems you have to have soft hands all the time. The reason I can't constantly wavedash everything is because at the end of my wavedash my shield usually comes up or I end up hitting x/y too hard and it jumps high and I just end up stuck [ and fucked ] in the air in an air dodge. Is there something I'm missing?
Sorry about some of the wording but I typed it up pretty quickly.
Thanks again!
Edit: Maybe I'm holding the controller wrong because I don't see how you could switch back and forth between the cstick and ctrl stick to chase someone [ aka aerial combo ]
G_G
Nevermind forget the questions about chasing I see that you use a combination of ctrl stick and cstick in the air now...
One more question: What's the quickest way to get on a ledge, I see players do it so ridiculously fast. Immediately they just face the opposite direction and WD onto the ledge? It seems from trial and error that you have to be a set distance away for that to work.
Edit2: On another note, I am now having trouble beating lvl 9 computers simply because I have never purely used y for jumping before. I always used ctrl stick to jump and only y to wavedash. Hmmm, I wonder do you guys use the ctrl stick for your initial jump and then switch to y when you're doing aerials or no?
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On June 10 2007 18:34 Ack1027 wrote:So again let's use marth as an example: ' When you are chase/comboing with marth with short hops, [ I think it's called shffling ] am I seeing using purely x/y and c stick only during this entire combo?
Generally yes (well you're also seeing the L/R for lcancelling and ctrl stick for ff'ing  ) although I know a few people that prefer to use Z for aerials to pull off ken combo easier. whatever works for you though
On June 10 2007 18:34 Ack1027 wrote:
Also it seems very difficult to me to do some advanced stuff because it seems you have to have soft hands all the time. The reason I can't constantly wavedash everything is because at the end of my wavedash my shield usually comes up or I end up hitting x/y too hard and it jumps high and I just end up stuck [ and fucked ] in the air in an air dodge. Is there something I'm missing?
if your shield comes up after your wd, you're not pressing R/L, you're holding it. learn to tap the button. press&let go asap.
if you end up doing jump+air dodge, that means you didn't dodge fast enough. you don't have to shorthop to wd. in fact, a common mistake i used to make is seeing my character simply do a full jump. why did this happen? because i dodged too soon. if you dodge a little too late, it's not really a problem. triangle jumping has its place as well (like against marth for instance), although it's definitely not wd
edit:
One more question: What's the quickest way to get on a ledge, I see players do it so ridiculously fast. Immediately they just face the opposite direction and WD onto the ledge? It seems from trial and error that you have to be a set distance away for that to work.
depends on the character. keep in mind you can control the length of your wavedash by the angle of your control stick. a much easier way to start with (and less suicidal when learning) is just a backward shorthop+fastfall. if you're intent on learning the fastest way though, it's wd'ing backwards and ff'ing (for most, but not all characters)
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"So again let's use marth as an example: ' When you are chase/comboing with marth with short hops, [ I think it's called shffling ] am I seeing using purely x/y and c stick only during this entire combo?"
No. You are seeing combinations of X/Y and a direction+the A button or X/Y and a C stick direction. GrandInquisitor said that you should use CStick for everything, but I would seriously only recommend using it for things that will increase your efficiency a good deal. Things like shuffling Falco's spike and positioning Falcon's knee perfectly may require exceptional skill with the C-Stick. Also, Peach's turnips can be thrown via C-Stick, so you should keep that in mind.
EDIT: Mew2King, notorious for having incredible technical skill with Fox, sometimes "claws" his GameCube controller. Halo players will know what this means. It's where you hold the controller in your left hand normally, and with your right hand, keep your thumb permanently on the C-Stick and your index and middle fingers on the A, B, X, Y area. Ring finger goes on either both Z and R or just Z and the pinky (if strong enough) can go on R. In this way, you'd be able to play like GrandInquisitor said and use the C-Stick for all of your aerials (except nairs, of course). Mew2King doesn't use this method exclusively, though, or at least not to my knowledge. It's worth looking into though, and I've seen some Japanese players who looked like they used it and pulled off some insane shit (like Falcon doing Knees while moving backwards quickly).
Someone mentioned earlier to do whatever feels best to you, but fuck that shit. You will eventually become comfortable using X/Y, and it's so worthwhile in the long run. Just because things don't feel perfect immediately doesn't mean that you should give up on them, because they'll almost always eventually feel normal. When working on technical skill, try to get used to the best method of doing the move rather than just searching for the easiest way out.
Oh yeah, and Isai may not do the Gentleman the easiest way, but that motherfucker does not wavedash with his Control Stick. I've also heard that he and Ken rarely ever use the C-Stick, so that's another thing to keep in mind.
"Also it seems very difficult to me to do some advanced stuff because it seems you have to have soft hands all the time. The reason I can't constantly wavedash everything is because at the end of my wavedash my shield usually comes up or I end up hitting x/y too hard and it jumps high and I just end up stuck [ and fucked ] in the air in an air dodge. Is there something I'm missing?"
Don't worry about the soft hands thing right now. The body has a way of not necessarily becoming accustomed to something that's uncomfortable, but rather adapting to that thing which is uncomfortable. Right now you probably hit your buttons harder than necessary and you probably hold them down longer than necessary. Over time and with practice, though, you'll eventually (without thinking) become more efficient in your hand movements and will be able to move your fingers more quickly. Another factor in this whole thing is how broken in your controller is. Just keep playing and keep trying to do the moves even if you're struggling and you'll eventually be able to do them at will.
Almost everyone has the shield as the end of the wavedash problem when they're first attempting to wavedash. The solution is to press and release L/R faster, and to keep practicing it. If you sat down and dedicated like 10 minutes every few hours to learning how to wavedash, I bet you'd have it down pretty well after a couple days.
"One more question: What's the quickest way to get on a ledge, I see players do it so ridiculously fast. Immediately they just face the opposite direction and WD onto the ledge? It seems from trial and error that you have to be a set distance away for that to work."
You can do a few things. What you'll see Isai do a LOT with Falcon after he knocks someone off the ledge is hold down L/R and roll to the ledge over and over until he's at the very end of it. After that, he'll just stand there and wait for the right moment to either full hop or short jump and then he'll either fast fall or slow fall to the ledge (doing this requires no control stick movement, oddly enough). Make sure to only tap down instead of holding down down because if you hold down down, you'll miss the ledge even if you're brushing right against it.
Another thing you can do is dash dance (tap left and right to make your character go back and forth quickly without losing momentum) and then immediately after you dash towards the direction opposite the ledge, wavedash back off of the ledge. It takes a bit of practice, though.
Finally, most characters have some method of changing directions in midair. Fox/Falco can run off the ledge and do their shine (down+B) and while inside the shine, aim in the direction of the ledge and they'll face that direction. Sheik jump off the ledge and, hit the opposite direction, hold down B to charge needles and then hit R/L to cancel the needle charging in order to change directions (I'm pretty sure this is what she does, I might be wrong though because I haven't played in forever). She can also dash towards the ledge, hit Up+B and then hold down the direction of the ledge and she'll go straight from her Up+B to the ledge (takes practice/timing...and my explanation was a little awkward). Marth can jump off and do a bair (backward aerial) and he'll change directions (you'll see Ken do this a LOT when edge guarding). There are many more examples, so try to find out the different way(s) for each character, if they have them.
"Edit2: On another note, I am now having trouble beating lvl 9 computers simply because I have never purely used y for jumping before. I always used ctrl stick to jump and only y to wavedash. Hmmm, I wonder do you guys use the ctrl stick for your initial jump and then switch to y when you're doing aerials or no?"
No. Just get used to using Y, dude. Dash, short hop with Y, keep holding in a direction, hit the A button immediately after you jump, fast fall at the height of your jump, and lightly hit the L or R button to L-Cancel (yes, you only need to hit it lightly. You don't need to click it in every time when L-Canceling). Another tip: make sure you return your stick Control Stick to neutral when you land to L-Cancel. This makes it so that if you want to dash immediately after L-Canceling, you may do so.
www.smashboards.com is your friend, as well.
Wow I wrote a lot. Hopefully my post will help you.
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It was very very helpful.
Thanks.
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Braavos36374 Posts
ack if you're having trouble getting the character to do what you want it to do when you want it to do it, first make sure you're doing the right thing (check smash boards, or ask here, or whatever)
but after that, its pure timing and speed practice. the more repetition the better, as your fingers start to commit the moves and combos to muscle memory and you can do it without thinking.
try to imagine if smash was like brood war, what the korean pros would be doing to practice.
a good example would be practice alternating high jump and short hop, then 2 high jumps, then 2 short hops, then 3, etc. basically until you never ever miss a short up and can do it on command. players that play for a long time can control even the harder short hopping characters jumps, like sheik or fox
obviously doing hardcore combo and technical practice takes the fun out of smash. i learned l-cancel timing, di, wavedash, combos, chaining, all that fun stuff through just matches with friends and rarely ever used the training mode. i was lucky to live in dorms and with suitemates that all played and all were very interested in getting better. but if you're by yourself it's hard to practice and have it be fun at the same time.
i mean just look at isai, he doesn't even like smash melee. him and ken have gotten so good at it for so long i'm not even sure if they enjoy playing it anymore. it's the same with any game that you try to be a "pro" in (ken and isai being the closest to real smash "pros" as you can get, despite the recent tournament results)
it's pretty funny when i was playing haji and his suitemates, we are all pretty bad relative to the tournament scene, maybe i can take a win or two but i'm good enough to know that i suck compared to the really good guys. but take a random casual player and he will have no idea whats going on. it's really quite similar to brood war that way, with most people being random noobs, some people being TL.net players who are decent and then the even higher ceiling that not many really know about.
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Yeah I see what you're saying. The broodwar analogy is really apt though, I must say. After seeing/learning about these techniques it makes the games much more interesting and worth playing competitively whether it's with friends or just people that you meet.
I'm not aiming to get pro or anything but it's kinda fun but at the same a little frustrating to learn that I've been playing the completely wrong method this entire time I've played smash bros and ssbm [ moreso ssbm ]
But yeah I really appreciate the advice. I guess I'll keep asking here if I got any questions! I get great answers.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
except ssbm is so much more imba than bw =(
poll: sunk/spore/lurk or Fox on Hyrule? (other acceptable choices: mass turrets on cliff, giant marth on fountain of dreams)
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EPT
