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On October 11 2017 05:16 Tachion wrote:
There was a second boss fight in FFXI that was undefeated for years, Absolute Virtue. Eventually one linkshell managed to find an exploit to kill it, then that got patched and it went unkilled for years after that.
The dev's in FFXI really didn't give a shit if the players couldn't figure out the hardest bosses.
Ah, AV. The memories. When Kirin first came out he was a SOB as well.
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On October 11 2017 06:08 Duka08 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2017 06:00 vult wrote:
Yeah pre-nerf 25H Lich King fight was dumb and broken..... thus the nerf later.
I would have to say that vanilla naxx putricide was hardest, though i was watching my brother fight it and not me and it looked impossible. Putricide was Icecrown not Naxx?
For some reason i mixed up putricide with plaguebringer... idk what my brain has been doing lately.
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On October 11 2017 03:56 FeyFey wrote:
GTB before first classes hit and you only had red potions.
is this a reference to golden thief bug from ragnarok? or a different game?
ragnaroks golden thief bug is probably the weakest boss monster in the game lol
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On October 11 2017 15:57 evilfatsh1t wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2017 03:56 FeyFey wrote:
GTB before first classes hit and you only had red potions. is this a reference to golden thief bug from ragnarok? or a different game? ragnaroks golden thief bug is probably the weakest boss monster in the game lol
Sounds like you didn't play the first builds before you even got classes...
yeah, later on it was the first/weakest boss monster there is,but later on you actually had skills and classes like Priests or Swordsmen... :D
That said, I'm not sure if stuff that basically was in an alpha/early beta should really count...then again, you could play it...*shrugs*
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On October 11 2017 19:37 Talaris wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2017 15:57 evilfatsh1t wrote:On October 11 2017 03:56 FeyFey wrote:
GTB before first classes hit and you only had red potions. is this a reference to golden thief bug from ragnarok? or a different game? ragnaroks golden thief bug is probably the weakest boss monster in the game lol Sounds like you didn't play the first builds before you even got classes... yeah, later on it was the first/weakest boss monster there is,but later on you actually had skills and classes like Priests or Swordsmen... :D That said, I'm not sure if stuff that basically was in an alpha/early beta should really count...then again, you could play it...*shrugs*
well yeah when ro was released for me classes were already there.
even in a scenario with no first classes (which like you said probably shouldnt count anyway), surely the other mvps should have been harder to kill? impossible more like it now that i think about it
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On October 11 2017 10:37 Sermokala wrote:
I mean the difficulty of the raid bosses ended up being one of the bigger things that caused its death. thats how hard the bosses were in wildstar. I don't know how many people actualy ended up even downing a single 40 man raid boss but it was a clear minority of minorities. That was a shitty experience as they didn't have it tested that well and there were bug fixes during the 40 man raiding discovery process.
I'm pretty sure Enigma is the only guild that ever actualy beat 40 man Avatus.
My guild teamed up with another to down 40-man SD in the week before the conversion to 20-man DS. We were pretty happy with that.
Unfortunately I never raided in another game, so Wildstar boss difficulty is just the standard to me 
Augmentor's 20 hard mode was really hard when it just came out as well. Possibly harder than the 20-man DS bosses.
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I dont think I've ever managed to beat vanilla wow van cleef with a group of the intended level and without any abuse of evade mechanics etc for the adds..........
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Prenerf C'thun was unkillable - I think the current WoW lead raid designer, when he was still the raid leader of Elitist Jerks once did the math and found that it was mathematically impossible. Pre-nerf Kael'Thas and pre-nerf vashj was buggy. I heard M'uru was really hard as well - adds, voidzones, and aoe attacks.
On October 11 2017 01:46 Velr wrote:
Prenerf Vasj and Kael'tas probably are up there if you don't look at near impossible (or in fact impossible bosses) bosses like C'thun... And at least Vasj was actually also a very cool fight.
On a more ironic note(with some self-plugging since this thread is all about reminiscing about raid bosses), I've been working on a RTS-MOBA Raidboss rush game called NEO Impossible Bosses, go wishlist it if you're interested!
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going off the point of GTB being hard, alpha/beta RO had Osiris in the pyramid.
the only heals you had were red/white pots which you saw one unlucky swordsman spamming.
i believe the MVP got a tsurugi.
it was not difficult at all since none of the mobs had skills until further into release, and i think GTB would rate as easier than osiris for stats.
for me some of the harder bosses (since i did not play WoW) were some of the earlier fights of FFXIV since the playerbase--while they took the game seriously--was not into optimizing or were quite bad compared to now.
the mechanics were simple and the numbers game hugely favored the players but the 1.5s delay creating a difference in what you saw onscreen and what actually happened to your characters threw off a lot of players.
once players were better at pre-planning, pre-positioning and riding GCD's, you have the level of play that we have today. full raid tiers are cleared within a couple days of release, which is nothing short of amazing, but shows that mechanic understanding and execution will be the only gating bit.
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Vrtra in FFXI was top of my list for a long time. After Absolute Virtue came around, that all changed. I remember it being up for like 2 straight days on our server and never despawning because hundreds of people took turns at it as each group died. Ive never seena boss like that since. Where you could get 8 hours of sleep, go to work, log back on, and it would still be alive and actively fought. I miss that game so much man. Still haven't found an mmorpg server community like that one. You built up a reputation and people actually got to know each other because one character could be any job (class). There were no alts to speak of.
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United States337 Posts
C'Thun the guild killer. It pretty much took all of the major guilds disbanding and reforming a super guild by cherry picking the best players from each guild to down it.
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On October 11 2017 20:16 Laurens wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2017 10:37 Sermokala wrote:
I mean the difficulty of the raid bosses ended up being one of the bigger things that caused its death. thats how hard the bosses were in wildstar. I don't know how many people actualy ended up even downing a single 40 man raid boss but it was a clear minority of minorities. That was a shitty experience as they didn't have it tested that well and there were bug fixes during the 40 man raiding discovery process.
I'm pretty sure Enigma is the only guild that ever actualy beat 40 man Avatus. My guild teamed up with another to down 40-man SD in the week before the conversion to 20-man DS. We were pretty happy with that. Unfortunately I never raided in another game, so Wildstar boss difficulty is just the standard to me Augmentor's 20 hard mode was really hard when it just came out as well. Possibly harder than the 20-man DS bosses.
cant say much about other mmos but:
there were a lot of reasons why 40m raiding was difficult that for the most part, didnt have much to do with the fights (the way they were meant to be) themselves.. (thanks carbine)
augmentors hardmode was the probably the hardest 20m man boss on release in wildstar due to the amount of mechanics packed into a single fight--mostly the last 20%, and it remained difficult for a very very long time
its also a shame what happened to wildstar... navigation core is probably one of the most interesting ideas for a raid boss fight
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On October 12 2017 08:22 afreecaTV.Char wrote:
C'Thun the guild killer. It pretty much took all of the major guilds disbanding and reforming a super guild by cherry picking the best players from each guild to down it.
I didn't think he was a guild killer. He was broken in the fact that you couldn't kill him until he got nerfed. This might have dissuaded people from pushing as a guild, but he was far from crushing souls as some more recent bosses (M Gorefiend in HFC comes to mind).
Even in my guild in vanilla, we killed C'thun after the nerfs in 2 raids nights (although we had substantial progress pre nerf so we weren't starting from scratch).
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On October 13 2017 20:20 Fprime wrote:
EVE.
Should that be Mittens, Chribba, or CCP Falcon?
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On October 11 2017 01:58 DwD wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2017 01:46 Velr wrote:
Prenerf Vasj and Kael'tas probably are up there if you don't look at near impossible (or in fact impossible bosses) bosses like C'thun... And at least Vasj was actually also a very cool fight. Pre nerf Kael'Thas was unkillable. Trust me I was there on the first kill The bosses kept their threat table and it kept building up even when they were dead so when they re-spawned they just killed every healer and you couldn't tank em at all. I don't think unkillable bosses should make a list like this because its not hard its just not possible. For me I think 4 Horsemen from WoW, you needed 8 sick geared tanks and then it was RNG if their taunt missed so they had to had a spell caster trinket with +hit on.
4 Horsemen to me is the epitome of what was wrong with WoW's raid fights back in the day.
It was a fight that literally REQUIRED months of gear farming for JUST tanks, and all the guilds that managed to do it first on each realm, did it because they poached the best geared tanks from the other competing guilds.
It wasn't a complicated fight at all, it just required stupid amounts of grinding for specific gear. The only fight worse in that area was Princess Huruhan in AQ40 that I completed with my guild after farming for over a month for Nature Resist gear in Muraudon and Silithus.
Yea fun fight design guys, go farm a level 45 instance for 5 weeks and downgrade all but a specific stat to get to move past a single boss.
Don't get me wrong, I loved Classic WoW, but looking back a lot of their raid designs back then were punishing in a lot of really unfun ways.
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Nightmare Shandra Manaya in Tera. First legit clear was 3 months after release. Even with 2 tears above the required gear and 2 years later people were still wiping like crazy.
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On October 14 2017 10:59 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2017 01:58 DwD wrote:On October 11 2017 01:46 Velr wrote:
Prenerf Vasj and Kael'tas probably are up there if you don't look at near impossible (or in fact impossible bosses) bosses like C'thun... And at least Vasj was actually also a very cool fight. Pre nerf Kael'Thas was unkillable. Trust me I was there on the first kill The bosses kept their threat table and it kept building up even when they were dead so when they re-spawned they just killed every healer and you couldn't tank em at all. I don't think unkillable bosses should make a list like this because its not hard its just not possible. For me I think 4 Horsemen from WoW, you needed 8 sick geared tanks and then it was RNG if their taunt missed so they had to had a spell caster trinket with +hit on. 4 Horsemen to me is the epitome of what was wrong with WoW's raid fights back in the day. It was a fight that literally REQUIRED months of gear farming for JUST tanks, and all the guilds that managed to do it first on each realm, did it because they poached the best geared tanks from the other competing guilds. It wasn't a complicated fight at all, it just required stupid amounts of grinding for specific gear. The only fight worse in that area was Princess Huruhan in AQ40 that I completed with my guild after farming for over a month for Nature Resist gear in Muraudon and Silithus. Yea fun fight design guys, go farm a level 45 instance for 5 weeks and downgrade all but a specific stat to get to move past a single boss. Don't get me wrong, I loved Classic WoW, but looking back a lot of their raid designs back then were punishing in a lot of really unfun ways.
What pissed me off most about AQ40 was the absurd amounts of riding / walking you had to do. The time between tries was way too long for my liking, that's when I first quit the game.
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Zun`Muram Tkarish Zyk (ZMTZ) in EverQuest: Gates of Discord in generation was tough. This boss could only be hurt by summoned pets or charmed monsters. But, no summoned pets could do any reasonable amounts of damage to it. Realistically, he had to be harmed by a charmed monster. ZMTZ himself did tons of damage and took a maximally geared tank with many healers chain healing him to survive.
Additionally, ZMTZ would occasionally BANISH his highest aggro target to a jail cell (one of 4 jail cells). This jail cell would be LOCKED when the player was put into it and would need to be UNLOCKED by a class that can pick locks (Rogue/Bard). If the player was not out of the cell within 10 seconds, then there would be many unkillable adds spawned in the cell that would kill the victim in the cell, leaving you down one tank.
So, in addition to having rogues ready to unlock jail cells so your main tank can return to the fight, you actually need at least several main tanks ready to rotate in and take aggro on ZMTZ when he banishes whoever the current main tank is. This on its own required a lot of coordination to even keep a successful tank rotation going.
This is not a boss you can burn down either, since 90% of your DPS classes can do LITERALLY NOTHING to the boss, since he's only able to be harmed by pet damage.
So also in this fight there were 4 totem monsters who constantly summoned adds. They ranged in level I believe anywhere from 64-70. The only class who could charm these mobs was the Enchanter and they could only charm a maximum of level 64 mobs in this generation. So, while the main crew is dealing with ZMTZ, you need a SECOND crew tanking and charming these spawned adds. And of course, you can only charm the weakest one of these adds and there's no guaruntee he'll be spawned on any given add cycle. You'll be there awhile.
Finally, ZMTZ casts an AOE DOT that affects everyone, draining their mana and their HP at a very, very fast rate, making it very difficult to sustain a long fight against this boss. He will also kill the charmed add pretty quickly, so you will need a constant flow of adds for the enchanter to charm.
Overall, this fight was a nightmare requiring a massive amount of coordination to succeed at. This mob was the gatekeeper to final raid of the expansion (note also that this is near the end of a very long and arduous raid progression that only the most dedicated players would even reach). He dropped a key that could be used to spawn a raid instance for your guild's raid for the final area.
He was so hard that in generation, multiple guilds would team up to take him down and then ONE guild would get the ONE key he dropped. So now the guilds would be required to team up REPEATEDLY to take him down so that every guild could get an instance key.
Now, the Gates of Discord expansion only ran from February 2004 to September 2004. I'm not sure the numbers, but very few guilds actually completed this expansion in this time frame. In September 2004, Omens of War released which increased the player level cap from 65 to 70. This greatly increased the power of all players and made GoD much more completable. Enchanters could now charm up to level 70 with the release of this expansion, so there were much more, stronger raid pets available to much, MUCH more quickly DPS ZMTZ down.
I remember this boss being a total nightmare.
This is NOT being accurately relived on the currently Live progression servers either, by the way. Since 2004, player HP and other stats have been substantially increased, causing players to be overall stronger and more tanky. Veteran Reward abilities also exist which give players a serious edge in tankiness, healing, and DPS for a short period of time once per day. Definitely worth using on this boss.
Overall, I've never seen anything quite like this boss. I'll always remember facing in-generation ZMTZ.
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Mythic Gorefiend gave me nightmares.
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EPT
