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Why Does Everybody Play Fox?

Forum Index > General Games
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ICWobbles
Profile Joined March 2014
United States3 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-31 18:44:22
March 31 2014 17:11 GMT
#1

Super Smash Brothers Melee: has twenty-six characters (twenty-five if you lump Sheik and Zelda together as one). They run the gamut in attributes and playstyles. You can play your game based on evasion and counter-hitting, on controlling space and shutting down options, on endless rushdown or endless runaway. The characters themselves range from glass cannons to nearly unkillable tanks. The tournament scene still has thousands of active players from all over the world, with different styles, attitudes, and approaches to the game.


So why do half of them play Fox?




Just half? You sure?


The first and most obvious guess is because he’s the best character in the game. Fox is ranked number one on the tier list and has been for a long time. Should it surprise us that people who enter a competitive setting with the intent of winning pick the best character?

No. But the funny thing is, Fox doesn’t actually win as much as you’d think. Foxes have always achieved decent results, but the best players have, until recently, not been Fox players. Ken played Marth, then Mew2King played mostly Marth during his dominant period. Mango rose to prominence with Jigglypuff, but lost his title of undisputed best as he began using a mixture of Fox, Falco, and Captain Falcon. Then came Armada with the unprecedented combination of Peach and a pocket Young Link to deal with his toughest matchup, Jigglypuff. Only recently did Mango return to dominance while primarily playing Fox, and he still must contend with others who use Sheik, Jigglypuff, Falco, and Marth. A new contender for the top spot has arisen in the form of Leffen, a Swedish Fox main, but he hasn’t fully proven he can take things all the way yet.

Despite being the best character in the game, Fox is barely on the list of big winners. There have always been high-level Foxes, but they didn’t get to sit at the top. So either people think playing Fox will get them the W and they have very poor observation skills (possible), or it’s something else.

After all, there are a lot of strikes against you when playing Fox. He falls quickly, which makes him easy to combo. He’s one of the easier characters to KO at low percent. He requires a high level of technical precision to play consistently, and his mistakes tend to be extremely costly. On top of that, because he is so common, it’s very hard to find players that don’t have some degree of experience fighting him; the odds of having practice against every other character, however, is low for any given Fox player. So if you do play Fox, you’ll find yourself in a position where you make mistakes based on inexperience, mistakes that cost big time and get you sent to loser’s bracket early, where you probably bump into another Fox main. But people keep playing him.
"Despite being the best character in the game, Fox is barely on the list of big winners."


What gives?

Part of it has to do with his speed, and the fact that going fast is fun. For some people it’s because they know how strong he can be while knowing how challenging it is to take him to the top. I used him as a tournament main and alternate for years, my reasoning being “if I can play Fox well, I will be able to play anybody” because of the dexterity required to play him. Many people share this attitude. Some relish the challenge.

Another reason is that he doesn’t actually have weak matchups. Glass cannon he might be, but a cannon nonetheless. Even if he’s not your primary character, as a backup he shores up any weakness your main might have, since his weakest matchups are fifty-fifty. For every disadvantage a different stage or matchup presents him, he receives some other advantage in compensation.

He also has some of the most reliable, bread-and-butter punishments in the game, and they can be practiced solo. This means that if somebody decides on a whim, “I think I’ll try playing Fox,” they can spend some time in training mode, hammer out a few basics, and have access to them once they start playing with live opponents. In a game where most combos are heavily dependant on the opponent’s positioning, percentage, and inputs, this is an undervalued but incredibly useful attribute.

The other thing to understand about Melee is that movement is at the heart of most of the game’s mixups. Fox has incredible versatility in the air with good air-control, sudden changes in speed by fast-falling, and his ground speed mixed with wavedashes lets him weave jukes and dodges with his direct aggression. Because so much of that speed is inherent to the character--and doesn’t necessarily rely on heavy training and optimization to unlock--picking Fox will give you access to the mental mix-up aspect of the game through his speed. This gives you access to the higher levels of both physical and mental components of the game.

But what really sells Fox is his versatility. He ranks well-above average in most categories, from speed to priority to power. His speed lets him rush down but it also lets him run away. He has a projectile that allows him to camp and spam, but it also can be used to force the other player to stop camping so you can fight in close quarters. He has solid options for poking and spacing and slowing things down, but also has the capacity to fight in your face. You don’t even need incredible finger speed to access his strongest tools, you just need precision and consistency. There are almost no skillsets in the game that can’t be accessed while playing him, so even though people don’t always end up winning as Fox, they feel like they get to play the game the way they want. Because he’s so strong, they see results doing it.

A huge element of the Smash Bros series is tweaking the game to play it however you want to, whether you want to organize things and eliminate all variables or create endless chaos. In a major sense, Fox embodies that because he lets you play precise and patient or wild and aggressive; he lets you camp and run while drawing the match out, or fish for low percent KOs to finish things quickly. At any point, you can switch from one to the other at the drop of a hat.

[image loading]
Fox has access to two of the strongest vertical KO moves, with reliable ways to combo into them.

[image loading]
Fox’s down+b reflector (called a “shine”) comes out in one frame and can be canceled immediately by jumping. It provides a seamless link from an aerial attack into another attack or maneuver, allowing him to press aggression or escape counter-attacks.

[image loading]
Fox can change his air-movement, constantly tweak his spacing, and play a precise poking game if he doesn’t feel like rushing you down; when doing this, he can rely on his quick, high-priority back-air to play a slower, more precise game.

[image loading]
Fox’s laser has no stun and deals very little damage, but mixed with his speed lets him steadily rack up damage from across the level. Whether you want to play run-away, or discourage your opponent from doing the same, it forces the game to be played at your pace.

[image loading]
Fox’s technical peak is borderline impossible to execute, meaning his playerbase always has a way to push their own limits and feel rewarded.

[image loading]
Fox can do a barrel roll.


In short, Fox hits the sweet-spot of power, style customization, instant gratification, and reward for long-term dedication, along with the knowledge that if you keep getting better, you will win more and more. He represents much of what draws people into Melee, and that’s why you will almost never see a large tournament without a fleet of Starfox players.

Thanks for reading.


Writer: Robert "Wobbles" Wright @EskimauxRob
Graphics: shiroiusagi @shiroiusagi_
+
Hot_Bid
Profile Blog Joined October 2003
Braavos36375 Posts
March 31 2014 17:33 GMT
#2
Fox aka the Protoss of SSBM

You all know this to be true.

Fun article!!
@Hot_Bid on Twitter - ESPORTS life since 2010 - http://i.imgur.com/U2psw.png
WhizPower
Profile Joined June 2013
Netherlands33 Posts
March 31 2014 17:34 GMT
#3
Great post. Nice to see you doing some writing on TL
mnck
Profile Joined April 2010
Denmark1518 Posts
March 31 2014 17:35 GMT
#4
Awesome article! Glad to seing a TL quality article on Smash. After Teamliquid picked up Ken and KDJ I'm really getting more and more interested in the game. As a complete newbie to Melee who only played N64 version for years with friends (many years ago!), this is exciting stuff to read!
@Munck
Count9
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
China10928 Posts
March 31 2014 17:36 GMT
#5
He also has some of the most reliable, bread-and-butter punishments in the game, and they can be practiced solo.

probably the biggest part for me, just more fun to spam fox things than sheik things vs cpus.
WhizPower
Profile Joined June 2013
Netherlands33 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-31 17:37:03
March 31 2014 17:36 GMT
#6
On April 01 2014 02:33 Hot_Bid wrote:
Fox aka the Protoss of SSBM

You all know this to be true.

Fun article!!


Fox can't be Protoss, he actually requires micro. /s
ZombieRitual
Profile Joined August 2011
United States121 Posts
March 31 2014 17:39 GMT
#7
Thank you for the article, good read!
Kipsate
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Netherlands45349 Posts
March 31 2014 17:40 GMT
#8
No, Fox is like Terran

Protoss is Marth.
WriterXiao8~~
YuiHirasawa
Profile Joined August 2012
Japan220 Posts
March 31 2014 17:41 GMT
#9
That's what you get for picking a game like melee.
Hell you could have picked up some Street Fighter pros but no, TL had to go full try hard and pick this game.
Fun things are fun
Megapenthes
Profile Joined October 2012
United Kingdom202 Posts
March 31 2014 17:42 GMT
#10
Good article.

On April 01 2014 02:33 Hot_Bid wrote:
Fox aka the Protoss of SSBM

You all know this to be true.

Fun article!!


Does this mean you're going with Fox for MLG?
Polt, Jangbi, Hyun
Elyvilon
Profile Joined August 2008
United States13143 Posts
March 31 2014 17:44 GMT
#11
On April 01 2014 02:33 Hot_Bid wrote:
Fox aka the Protoss of SSBM

You all know this to be true.

Fun article!!

Isn't Peach the Protoss of SSBM?

(Peach is awesome)
Liquipedia
yamato77
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
11589 Posts
March 31 2014 17:58 GMT
#12
I will admit, I play fox as a secondary only because he's insanely fun to play.

Wobbles accurately analyses the Fox appeal, IMO. I love that the cap to Fox play is so high.
Writer@WriterYamato
KuKKi
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany73 Posts
March 31 2014 18:33 GMT
#13
"Fox’s down+b reflector (called a “shine”) comes out in one frame and can be canceled immediately with jump immediately."

English isn't my native language, but i'm pretty sure, two "immediately"s are too much for this sentence.
]343[
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
United States10328 Posts
March 31 2014 18:42 GMT
#14
WOBBLES!!! great read!
Writer
EchOne
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
United States2906 Posts
March 31 2014 18:43 GMT
#15
Good shit!
面白くない世の中, 面白くすればいいさ
Firebolt145
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Lalalaland34491 Posts
March 31 2014 18:45 GMT
#16
On April 01 2014 03:33 KuKKi wrote:
"Fox’s down+b reflector (called a “shine”) comes out in one frame and can be canceled immediately with jump immediately."

English isn't my native language, but i'm pretty sure, two "immediately"s are too much for this sentence.

Now look what you made Wobbles do, he just broke everything.
Moderator
tofucake
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Hyrule19054 Posts
March 31 2014 18:47 GMT
#17
On April 01 2014 03:33 KuKKi wrote:
"Fox’s down+b reflector (called a “shine”) comes out in one frame and can be canceled immediately with jump immediately."

English isn't my native language, but i'm pretty sure, two "immediately"s are too much for this sentence.

it could use 3 or 4 more immediatelies actually, because that's how fast it is.
Liquipediaasante sana squash banana
ICWobbles
Profile Joined March 2014
United States3 Posts
March 31 2014 18:48 GMT
#18
Yes, I attempted to correct the typo and managed to destroy the formatting. Thanks to KuKKi for pointing it out though.

There is a reason that I am not the person who handles these things. I just do the words.
TheQuixotic
Profile Joined June 2011
36 Posts
March 31 2014 18:48 GMT
#19
IMO, Fox isn't the best tournament character in our current tournament format where you grind out a ton of matches over several days. It's very ha.rd to maintain consistency over so many matches, and a lapse when you're playing Fox can be devastating. I'd say that Sheik and maybe Falco are better choices to do well in tournament.

...in singles, anyway.
ICWobbles
Profile Joined March 2014
United States3 Posts
March 31 2014 18:49 GMT
#20
On April 01 2014 03:47 tofucake wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 01 2014 03:33 KuKKi wrote:
"Fox’s down+b reflector (called a “shine”) comes out in one frame and can be canceled immediately with jump immediately."

English isn't my native language, but i'm pretty sure, two "immediately"s are too much for this sentence.

it could use 3 or 4 more immediatelies actually, because that's how fast it is.


Funny, because I immediately tried to correct things and went too fast.

It's the curse of Fox.
tofucake
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Hyrule19054 Posts
March 31 2014 18:51 GMT
#21
In the end, when literally everyone is playing Fox, he will have lots of tournament wins. And that's what we need to strive for.
Liquipediaasante sana squash banana
Blargh
Profile Joined September 2010
United States2103 Posts
March 31 2014 19:02 GMT
#22
Space animals imba.

Sheik so much cooler.
darthfoley
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States8003 Posts
March 31 2014 19:23 GMT
#23
Falcon so much more manly
watch the wall collide with my fist, mostly over problems that i know i should fix
Kyuukyuu
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Canada6263 Posts
March 31 2014 19:26 GMT
#24
i don't main or even really like fox but he's damn fun to play
stuchiu
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
March 31 2014 19:35 GMT
#25
On April 01 2014 03:51 tofucake wrote:
In the end, when literally everyone is playing Fox, he will have lots of tournament wins. And that's what we need to strive for.


20XX is comin.
Moderator
Nickemwit
Profile Joined December 2007
United States253 Posts
March 31 2014 19:45 GMT
#26
Good article. What it really comes down to is that Fox is amazingly fun to play. He has complete control over the pace of the game and more options and answers to situations than any other character. I'm still sticking with Falcon though >.<
Fight Fire with ShrieK
Pazuzu
Profile Joined July 2011
United States632 Posts
March 31 2014 20:07 GMT
#27
On April 01 2014 02:33 Hot_Bid wrote:
Fox aka the Protoss of SSBM

You all know this to be true.

Fun article!!


Shots fired. But not really because holy crap is it true. Falco4lyfe
"It is because intuition is sometimes right, that we don't know what to do with it"
intrigue
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Washington, D.C9933 Posts
March 31 2014 20:14 GMT
#28
coollll
Moderatorhttps://soundcloud.com/castlesmusic/sets/oak
SetGuitarsToKill
Profile Blog Joined December 2013
Canada28396 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-31 20:48:49
March 31 2014 20:48 GMT
#29
I've always just felt that Fox was the funnest character to play at a casual level. He's fast, hits pretty hard, has spammable moves and is good at pissing your friends off. He's pretty much the perfect character.
Community News"As long as you have a warp prism you can't be bad at harassment" - Maru | @SetGuitars2Kill
People_0f_Color
Profile Joined August 2010
177 Posts
March 31 2014 20:54 GMT
#30
Fox = Terran Bio due to his incredibly quick micro, infinite potential, and constant vulnerability
Marth = Protoss with his focus on strong decision making, durability, and power.
Sheik + Captain Falcon = parts of Zerg. Sheik is based on positioning and how you choose to take an engagement, and edgeguarding (exploiting someone who dropped their guard/failed to build their wall). Captain falcon because of the focus on momentum and translating a small advantage into a snowball effect.
jcarlsoniv
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States27922 Posts
March 31 2014 20:55 GMT
#31
Nice writeup Wobbles.
Soniv ||| Soniv#1962 ||| @jcarlsoniv ||| The Big Golem ||| Join the Glorious Evolution. What's your favorite aminal, a bear? ||| Joe "Don't call me Daniel" "Soniv" "Daniel" Carlsberg LXIX ||| Paging Dr. John Shadow
Zoler
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Sweden6339 Posts
March 31 2014 21:02 GMT
#32
Nice! We need more Smash news and articles!
Lim Yo Hwan forever!
Antoine
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States7481 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-31 21:19:38
March 31 2014 21:19 GMT
#33
Are you sure it's not just because everyone aspires in their heart to be Chillindude829?

nice article!
ModeratorFlash Sea Action Snow Midas | TheStC Ret Tyler MC | RIP 우정호
JohnChoi
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
1773 Posts
March 31 2014 21:41 GMT
#34
do the barrel roll!!!
synapse
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
China13814 Posts
March 31 2014 21:55 GMT
#35
nice article
cool to see wobbles posting
:)
Alakaslam
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
United States17336 Posts
March 31 2014 21:59 GMT
#36
Fox is really fun to play every game I have tried in

+ Show Spoiler +
which is basically 64
If you think Elon Musk is a Nazi, it is because YOU radicalized him!
chaosTheory_14cc
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Canada1270 Posts
March 31 2014 22:14 GMT
#37
Ehh, I like Falco better. Good read.
RiceIsYummy
Profile Joined February 2011
United States6 Posts
March 31 2014 22:37 GMT
#38
Fox is Protoss because if you get a large enough death ball you A click into victory similar if you were able to play Fox perfectly, you would never lose
Falco is Zerg - you have to play aggressive
Sheik is Terran - campy

Good read!
Everything happens for a reason. Every action has a reaction. Always remember that what's meant to be will always find a way to come about
Kyuukyuu
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Canada6263 Posts
March 31 2014 23:26 GMT
#39
On April 01 2014 05:07 Pazuzu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 01 2014 02:33 Hot_Bid wrote:
Fox aka the Protoss of SSBM

You all know this to be true.

Fun article!!


Shots fired. But not really because holy crap is it true. Falco4lyfe


Fox is hard to play tho
perrysnagy
Profile Joined May 2012
United States32 Posts
March 31 2014 23:33 GMT
#40
Falcon=Zerg speed and chaos and only a few are truley great
Fox= bio Terran precision and flawless play=gg
Marth=toss overall good character can be played turtle or agro(ken/azen)
Startale Liquid {} EGJaeDong LiquidTaeja STLife {}
Superiorwolf
Profile Blog Joined March 2007
United States5509 Posts
March 31 2014 23:55 GMT
#41
Nice article, I enjoyed reading it :D How viable is Donkey Kong in the tier list of good characters? Would love to see more of these in the future!
Check out my stream at www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=315053 and follow me on Twitter @EGSuppy! :)
VayneAuthority
Profile Joined October 2012
United States8983 Posts
April 01 2014 00:00 GMT
#42
ive always enjoyed the other spectrum, the heavy clunky characters that you can make people look like idiots when you win with it. I guess a good example would be Taj on mewtwo.
I come in for the scraps
Footler
Profile Joined January 2010
United States560 Posts
April 01 2014 00:08 GMT
#43
Wobbles are you coming out of retirement?
I am The-Sink! Parting bandwagoner before it became a soul train.
dirtydurb82
Profile Joined December 2012
United States178 Posts
April 01 2014 00:24 GMT
#44
Really cool article. For all of us SCII fans, exposure to a another rabid fan base is really intriguing and fun to see! Can't wait to see more from the SSB Community and welcome back to MLG!
"The only way to grow E-Sports is to tell the truth." -Richard Lewis
Megapenthes
Profile Joined October 2012
United Kingdom202 Posts
April 01 2014 00:34 GMT
#45
On April 01 2014 08:55 Superiorwolf wrote:
Nice article, I enjoyed reading it :D How viable is Donkey Kong in the tier list of good characters? Would love to see more of these in the future!

Holy shit Suppy is me. I basically made a thread asking how good DK is. Also I have Bronze liquipedia contribution.
Wau.
I guess I better start playing SC2 a lot again...
Polt, Jangbi, Hyun
tofucake
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Hyrule19054 Posts
April 01 2014 01:00 GMT
#46
On April 01 2014 08:55 Superiorwolf wrote:
Nice article, I enjoyed reading it :D How viable is Donkey Kong in the tier list of good characters? Would love to see more of these in the future!

He's...er...not.
Liquipediaasante sana squash banana
casualman
Profile Joined April 2010
United States1198 Posts
April 01 2014 01:14 GMT
#47
On April 01 2014 10:00 tofucake wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 01 2014 08:55 Superiorwolf wrote:
Nice article, I enjoyed reading it :D How viable is Donkey Kong in the tier list of good characters? Would love to see more of these in the future!

He's...er...not.

In PM, he's quite good. Plus he's even got that DKC roll attack workin'.
GuMiho <3
Thrillz
Profile Joined May 2012
4313 Posts
April 01 2014 03:36 GMT
#48
Surprise that this article hasn't received any spotlight outside of this subforum, it hits the nail on the head.
Archeon
Profile Joined May 2011
3253 Posts
April 01 2014 03:42 GMT
#49
Wont fox become a problem in the future? I get that Fox is only op if he is played perfectly and the level of skill to pull that off is higher than playing other characters at their maximum potential, but if the scene grows the overall level will rise. We already see now a lot of fox in the tourneys now, in one or two years (if melee survives that long) we might be seeing exclusively fox, unless he is banned like metaknight.
low gravity, yes-yes!
EchOne
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
United States2906 Posts
April 01 2014 03:48 GMT
#50
On April 01 2014 12:42 Blackfeather wrote:
Wont fox become a problem in the future? I get that Fox is only op if he is played perfectly and the level of skill to pull that off is higher than playing other characters at their maximum potential, but if the scene grows the overall level will rise. We already see now a lot of fox in the tourneys now, in one or two years (if melee survives that long) we might be seeing exclusively fox, unless he is banned like metaknight.

That's a scenario many have considered with a mixture of facetiousness and gravity, recently evinced in the smash meme 20xx. Wobbles in this article already discusses major reasons why Fox is both popular and not yet able to dominate all the first place finishes at majors. Who knows, 20xx might become a reality someday, but right now, with none of the 5 smash gods exclusively maining Fox, it seems like the dread possibility is still far away.
面白くない世の中, 面白くすればいいさ
bo1b
Profile Blog Joined August 2012
Australia12814 Posts
April 01 2014 03:48 GMT
#51
On April 01 2014 12:42 Blackfeather wrote:
Wont fox become a problem in the future? I get that Fox is only op if he is played perfectly and the level of skill to pull that off is higher than playing other characters at their maximum potential, but if the scene grows the overall level will rise. We already see now a lot of fox in the tourneys now, in one or two years (if melee survives that long) we might be seeing exclusively fox, unless he is banned like metaknight.

We have no clue what the tier list looks like at the theoretical max human potential. Apart from that there is more to the game then just tech skill, the more tech is developed the more strategy and mind games will develop.
docvoc
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States5491 Posts
April 01 2014 04:13 GMT
#52
On April 01 2014 10:14 casualman wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 01 2014 10:00 tofucake wrote:
On April 01 2014 08:55 Superiorwolf wrote:
Nice article, I enjoyed reading it :D How viable is Donkey Kong in the tier list of good characters? Would love to see more of these in the future!

He's...er...not.

In PM, he's quite good. Plus he's even got that DKC roll attack workin'.

Suppy could make him viable tho, dash dancing his way to the top with that amp on DK.
User was warned for too many mimes.
Thrillz
Profile Joined May 2012
4313 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-01 06:54:51
April 01 2014 06:52 GMT
#53
On April 01 2014 12:48 EchOne wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 01 2014 12:42 Blackfeather wrote:
Wont fox become a problem in the future? I get that Fox is only op if he is played perfectly and the level of skill to pull that off is higher than playing other characters at their maximum potential, but if the scene grows the overall level will rise. We already see now a lot of fox in the tourneys now, in one or two years (if melee survives that long) we might be seeing exclusively fox, unless he is banned like metaknight.

That's a scenario many have considered with a mixture of facetiousness and gravity, recently evinced in the smash meme 20xx. Wobbles in this article already discusses major reasons why Fox is both popular and not yet able to dominate all the first place finishes at majors. Who knows, 20xx might become a reality someday, but right now, with none of the 5 smash gods exclusively maining Fox, it seems like the dread possibility is still far away.


Pretty much right on.

I mean for YEARS Fox was the widely accepted best character, and we have still yet to see Fox dominance. Only recently have we seen any semblance of success and it's still not anything of major concern. Basically anything at this point is just presumptuous. I'll believe Fox dominates everything and everyone plays Fox when I see it. We have always seen a lot of Fox players in the past and he still doesn't dominate.

Fox might not even be the best character, there are a few who believe that, in today's metagame, that Falco is superior if you want to win tourneys.
Signia
Profile Joined October 2010
United States12 Posts
April 01 2014 06:55 GMT
#54
To those of you drawing character parallels to Starcraft races, Fox is both difficult and easy. It's difficult to not die by execution errors, but developing good strategy and playing matchups effectively is not, and Fox players don't have to read the opponent as well due to his safety and option coverage.

The "20XX" meme that jokes about the future being all fox players (and that the future is now) is pretty far from the truth. Mid tier players are rising up, notably aMSa with his Yoshi, Axe with his Pikachu and to some degree his Young Link, and Luigi players like Abate and Eddie Mexico. Mid level players playing mid tier characters is starting to become more common too, at least in SoCal. Every character down to Link has representation.
ChriS-X
Profile Joined June 2011
Malaysia1374 Posts
April 01 2014 07:58 GMT
#55
On April 01 2014 15:55 Signia wrote:
To those of you drawing character parallels to Starcraft races, Fox is both difficult and easy. It's difficult to not die by execution errors, but developing good strategy and playing matchups effectively is not, and Fox players don't have to read the opponent as well due to his safety and option coverage.

The "20XX" meme that jokes about the future being all fox players (and that the future is now) is pretty far from the truth. Mid tier players are rising up, notably aMSa with his Yoshi, Axe with his Pikachu and to some degree his Young Link, and Luigi players like Abate and Eddie Mexico. Mid level players playing mid tier characters is starting to become more common too, at least in SoCal. Every character down to Link has representation.

even ganondorf?
Thrillz
Profile Joined May 2012
4313 Posts
April 01 2014 08:07 GMT
#56
On April 01 2014 16:58 ChriS-X wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 01 2014 15:55 Signia wrote:
To those of you drawing character parallels to Starcraft races, Fox is both difficult and easy. It's difficult to not die by execution errors, but developing good strategy and playing matchups effectively is not, and Fox players don't have to read the opponent as well due to his safety and option coverage.

The "20XX" meme that jokes about the future being all fox players (and that the future is now) is pretty far from the truth. Mid tier players are rising up, notably aMSa with his Yoshi, Axe with his Pikachu and to some degree his Young Link, and Luigi players like Abate and Eddie Mexico. Mid level players playing mid tier characters is starting to become more common too, at least in SoCal. Every character down to Link has representation.

even ganondorf?


Yes even Ganondorf, though some of them aren't particularly too active now.
Legacy_Tangent
Profile Joined October 2010
United States6 Posts
April 01 2014 08:52 GMT
#57
Great article! Wobbles has great writing as usual.

To those of you drawing character parallels to Starcraft races, Fox is both difficult and easy. It's difficult to not die by execution errors, but developing good strategy and playing matchups effectively is not, and Fox players don't have to read the opponent as well due to his safety and option coverage.


I think you underestimate the difficulty of learning this character and playing him in an environment of players who nearly ALL have years of experience playing fox. Just look at Hax for example. Even as mechanically adept as he is, he hasn't seen great results as of yet. So while I agree with you that the strategy and matchups aren't bad in themselves, I would never classify fox as easy.
Yomi-no-Kuni
Profile Joined May 2010
Germany333 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-01 09:11:51
April 01 2014 09:10 GMT
#58
Very nice, great article!


Edit: TL_Wobbles would be legendary... just a thought
retired: check
longtime top player: check
teamless (haha lol, everyone is): check
and, in a wobble accepting era, definitely a contender for the top spots
TheFish7
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
United States2824 Posts
April 01 2014 21:02 GMT
#59
Back when I played SSB with friends and we didn't know pro-gaming was even a thing, we also arrived at the conclusion that Fox was the best character. Then periodically someone would get good with another character like Marth or Mewtwo and for a few games we'd think, hey, maybe Fox isn't the best character after all. But inevitably we'd always gravitate back to Fox.

We also floated around the idea that Falco is better than Fox, just harder to use because of his slower speed, but that never actually panned out. We thought that the slower speed must mean a higher skill cap, but I think that mentality was just leftover from many, many games of Mario Kart where the fattest characters had the highest top speed but lowest acceleration.
~ ~ <°)))><~ ~ ~
sambo400
Profile Joined March 2011
United States378 Posts
April 01 2014 22:34 GMT
#60
On April 01 2014 02:40 Kipsate wrote:
No, Fox is like Terran

Protoss is Marth.

Quoted for accuracy.
CaptainPlatypus
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States852 Posts
April 02 2014 07:45 GMT
#61
Well written, Wobbles, and congrats (for no doubt the billionth time) on EVO 2013. As a 64 player, I watch a lot more melee than I play, and I'm not gonna lie, watching fox has gotten pretty old. It feels like no matter how good the non-fox player is, the fox player is always the one to watch, always the one whose skill matters more. As some commentator said recently of a particular match between a fox and a non-fox, "when [the non-fox player] is on, he looks really good. When [the fox player] is on, he looks unbeatable." It feels, as a spectator, like no matter how good you are at playing, say, Marth, you're always trying to bait the fox player into mistakes, never challenging him on his own terms. I don't know how accurate this is to how it feels to play the game (or how it feels to watch it as a more informed player!), but it's probably a lot more fun to play than it is to watch even if I'm right. Anyway, I've been having a lot of fun watching PM as a result, because there's just so much more character variety.

...That said, if I was going to pick up melee I'd probably main samus or luigi, which probably tells you something about my sense of priorities.
bo1b
Profile Blog Joined August 2012
Australia12814 Posts
April 02 2014 07:55 GMT
#62
... Protoss is more like wobbles tbph
worosei
Profile Joined October 2010
Australia198 Posts
April 02 2014 08:30 GMT
#63
i also agree that it'd be great to see more character writeups!!


How exactly do the 'tiers' work? Is it just that a high tier character has a lot more options and abilities to do things, or can a low-tier character, played without 'flaw', still be 'dominant'. Like if you played Zelda perfect against a perfect Fox player, will Fox just win, or will it actually be 'balanced'? Can a princess ever reclaim her rightful place next to the throne?
nath
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1788 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-02 08:43:23
April 02 2014 08:37 GMT
#64
On April 01 2014 02:33 Hot_Bid wrote:
Fox aka the Protoss of SSBM

You all know this to be true.

Fun article!!

fox is terran. strongest when played perfectly, so hard to play perfectly. very versatile, requires way more actions than other characters, but again if you are fast enough, the game is entirely in your own hands. you are your own worst enemy. one fuckup = death. probably close to falco if not higher, at the top in terms of average SD's. i really think this analogy works well and i find it sad that you fail this hard in the first reply, hot_bid.
Founder of Flow Enterprises, LLC http://flow-enterprises.com/
nath
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1788 Posts
April 02 2014 08:40 GMT
#65
On April 02 2014 17:30 worosei wrote:
i also agree that it'd be great to see more character writeups!!


How exactly do the 'tiers' work? Is it just that a high tier character has a lot more options and abilities to do things, or can a low-tier character, played without 'flaw', still be 'dominant'. Like if you played Zelda perfect against a perfect Fox player, will Fox just win, or will it actually be 'balanced'? Can a princess ever reclaim her rightful place next to the throne?

i would say that a perfect fox can unfortunately 4 stock a perfect zelda pretty consistently. its a matter of frame data and lag of moves. but this situation is weird to analyze. what is perfect?
Founder of Flow Enterprises, LLC http://flow-enterprises.com/
rabidch
Profile Joined January 2010
United States20289 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-02 09:39:28
April 02 2014 09:38 GMT
#66
On April 02 2014 17:40 nath wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 02 2014 17:30 worosei wrote:
i also agree that it'd be great to see more character writeups!!


How exactly do the 'tiers' work? Is it just that a high tier character has a lot more options and abilities to do things, or can a low-tier character, played without 'flaw', still be 'dominant'. Like if you played Zelda perfect against a perfect Fox player, will Fox just win, or will it actually be 'balanced'? Can a princess ever reclaim her rightful place next to the throne?

i would say that a perfect fox can unfortunately 4 stock a perfect zelda pretty consistently. its a matter of frame data and lag of moves. but this situation is weird to analyze. what is perfect?

ultimately it could be possible for a tas-like AI to get off a 0 to death grab setups with some characters against fox, i dont know if zelda is one of them but if she is all she has to do is make one grab (which may be hard), take a stock and then use the infinite ledge stall trick and then stall to time out
LiquidDota StaffOnly a true king can play the King.
ffadicted
Profile Joined January 2011
United States3545 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-02 13:13:43
April 02 2014 12:55 GMT
#67
still not as stupid as pikachu and MK in their respective games imo
I think the "fox is too good" hype is way way over-exagerated
SooYoung-Noona!
[F_]aths
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Germany3947 Posts
April 02 2014 12:59 GMT
#68
I feel we need more Smash Bros. on TL. I only have the Gamecube version, but it still is insanely fun.
You don't choose to play zerg. The zerg choose you.
BrTarolg
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United Kingdom3574 Posts
April 02 2014 13:24 GMT
#69
Thing about fox is that the metagame for smash is still developing and has made leaps and bounds (i mean, 2008 players look like utter trash compared to now)

Theres still new technology being implemented and discovered for all characters

The main issue with fox is that most players simply didn't have most of the technology for him until recently (within the last couple of years) so it's hard to see results when despite knowing about certain things that fox could do, his game hasn't really been developed properly until more recently
Shikyo
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Finland33997 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-02 13:29:37
April 02 2014 13:28 GMT
#70
Fox has the most control. I at least enjoy how I'm always able to control my character and don't need to waste a long time getting "in position" like Sheik or Marth need to before they can SHFFL properly without leaving themselves open. Shine is the best move in the game easily and out of the two characters that possess it, Fox has the better mobility and wavedash. He basically has all the tools you could want. Maybe everyone would be playing Sheik instead if she had Fox's short jump height, who knows.

I still think that the best character in the game is Jigglypuff, by the way.
League of Legends EU West, Platinum III | Yousei Teikoku is the best thing that has ever happened to music.
Zoler
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Sweden6339 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-02 22:54:09
April 02 2014 22:53 GMT
#71
On April 02 2014 22:28 Shikyo wrote:
Fox has the most control. I at least enjoy how I'm always able to control my character and don't need to waste a long time getting "in position" like Sheik or Marth need to before they can SHFFL properly without leaving themselves open. Shine is the best move in the game easily and out of the two characters that possess it, Fox has the better mobility and wavedash. He basically has all the tools you could want. Maybe everyone would be playing Sheik instead if she had Fox's short jump height, who knows.

I still think that the best character in the game is Jigglypuff, by the way.


Fox wrecks puff pretty hard due to her getting camped pretty hard by fox. If fox didn't have lasers (or they got banned) I could see puff rising a lot, but probably still not the best.

On April 02 2014 21:59 [F_]aths wrote:
I feel we need more Smash Bros. on TL. I only have the Gamecube version, but it still is insanely fun.


Melee for Gamecube is the by far most popular one and the most competitive one.

Germany has a huge huge Melee scene if you want to get into it!
Lim Yo Hwan forever!
yido
Profile Joined March 2014
United States350 Posts
April 02 2014 23:31 GMT
#72
Well written. Love the brief/niche history lesson on SSBM.

I used to play with marth almost exclusively.
I remember being a jerk in FFA with Roy too.
gl hf
QuixoticO
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Netherlands810 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-03 18:28:04
April 03 2014 18:19 GMT
#73
On April 01 2014 12:42 Blackfeather wrote:
Wont fox become a problem in the future? I get that Fox is only op if he is played perfectly and the level of skill to pull that off is higher than playing other characters at their maximum potential, but if the scene grows the overall level will rise. We already see now a lot of fox in the tourneys now, in one or two years (if melee survives that long) we might be seeing exclusively fox, unless he is banned like metaknight.


When people talk about perfect fox it always reminds me of this video and video.

But in all honestness I doubt it will ever happening considering people have been playing this game competitively for years and years now. If I remember correctly I would even say in the Netherlands we have more Sheiks and Falco's then Foxes.
"Suum Cuique" - Cicero
Yoshi Kirishima
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States10343 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-03 20:14:17
April 03 2014 20:09 GMT
#74
On April 02 2014 17:30 worosei wrote:
i also agree that it'd be great to see more character writeups!!


How exactly do the 'tiers' work? Is it just that a high tier character has a lot more options and abilities to do things, or can a low-tier character, played without 'flaw', still be 'dominant'. Like if you played Zelda perfect against a perfect Fox player, will Fox just win, or will it actually be 'balanced'? Can a princess ever reclaim her rightful place next to the throne?


Tiers are created slightly differently between groups/games. Usually it's a combination of a character's tournament presence and viability, though the latter has been more important usually. So if Fox shows up as half of all tournament entrants and there are a lot of tournaments being won by Fox, he'd be top tier. If half of all entrants are Fox but Fox isn't winning much, he may or may not be high, because yes he is showing up in tournaments a lot and is very relevant, but in proportion to Foxes actually winning or placing high, there aren't that many.

The criteria for tier lists changes slightly over time and varies depending on the specific people currently in the tier list creating groups.

Regarding your example, you can't look at two people in middle tier and say X will beat Y in a match if they're both being played "perfectly", but if you look at a top tier and a low tier then the top tier will win at least 95% of the time realistically and should always win if played "perfectly" (assuming both people are "equally skilled"). Characters within a tier are decently matched against each other (excluding some exceptions), characters a tier apart have a noticeable difference and characters 2 tiers apart or more have a very significant difference.

But yes, those at the top tiers have no real weak matchups, so they are also the ones that have a lot of options and are very flexible. Very rarely you get some really good player that plays a lower tier character, able to beat second rate players playing high or top tier characters (like aMSa recently playing Yoshi, who can put up a fight with the some of the best, but hasn't proven he can close the gap).
Mid-master streaming MECH ONLY + commentary www.twitch.tv/yoshikirishima +++ "If all-in fails, all-in again."
RookerS
Profile Joined May 2013
Ivory Coast75 Posts
April 04 2014 08:26 GMT
#75
protoss is ice climbers XDDD
TriHard TriHard TriHard TriHard TriHard TriHard TriHard TriHard TriHard TriHard TriHard TriHard TriHard TriHard TriHard TriHard TriHard TriHard TriHard TriHard TriHard TriHard TriHard TriHard TriHard TriHard TriHard TriHard TriHard TriHard
Code
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Canada634 Posts
April 04 2014 13:27 GMT
#76
Cool article. I know there is already smashboards and the wiki but maybe one day TL can collect write-ups like this one for each character and make a tagged thread or something ..just for some reading/history, etc?

Also, this reminded me of this comic. Always makes me laugh

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]
sc4k
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United Kingdom5454 Posts
April 04 2014 13:30 GMT
#77
Awesome post Wobbles, nice to see you around!!!! You are a fantastic player and great commentator.

My short answer to the question: because they aren't manly enough to play g&w.

But your answer is good too
29 fps
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States5724 Posts
April 04 2014 14:57 GMT
#78
People play fox because they don't know what it says
4v4 is a battle of who has the better computer.
FFW_Rude
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France10201 Posts
April 04 2014 15:07 GMT
#79
I don't play this game but it was a fun read. I hoped for What do the Fox say jokes. I was disapointed
#1 KT Rolster fanboy. KT BEST KT ! Hail to KT playoffs Zergs ! Unofficial french translator for SlayerS_`Boxer` biography "Crazy as me".
FoxShine
Profile Joined January 2012
United States156 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-05 19:50:14
April 05 2014 19:47 GMT
#80
Fox's uptilt and upair are hard to execute but fucking powerful. His neutral air, forward tilt, and backair are really strong too. but the best reason to play fox - Shine. Drill shine, waveshine, or shine a player off the edge for instant KO..
We do what we must, because we can
Zoler
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Sweden6339 Posts
April 06 2014 17:18 GMT
#81
On April 05 2014 00:07 FFW_Rude wrote:
I don't play this game but it was a fun read. I hoped for What do the Fox say jokes. I was disapointed


People are so tired about those jokes already and it got old pretty fast.
Lim Yo Hwan forever!
Names
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Canada328 Posts
April 07 2014 04:25 GMT
#82
On April 07 2014 02:18 Zoler wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 05 2014 00:07 FFW_Rude wrote:
I don't play this game but it was a fun read. I hoped for What do the Fox say jokes. I was disapointed


People are so tired about those jokes already and it got old pretty fast.

It's okay. We were satisfied by
On April 01 2014 02:11 ICWobbles wrote:
[image loading]
Fox can do a barrel roll.

Noocta
Profile Joined June 2010
France12578 Posts
April 07 2014 14:04 GMT
#83
Aka, explaining how tiers list work to Starcraft fans lol.
" I'm not gonna fight you. I'm gonna kick your ass ! "
DinoMight
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States3725 Posts
April 07 2014 17:56 GMT
#84
Fox is really good and a lot of fun to play. I played Fox/Captain Falcon in Melee.
"Wtf I come back and find myself in camp DinoMight all of a sudden, feels weird man." -Wombat_NI
Patate
Profile Joined January 2011
Canada441 Posts
April 08 2014 07:49 GMT
#85
I have not watched SSBM tournaments but I am wondering.. is Game & Watch any played? I used to love playing him when we were playing with friends or family (of course we were casual plebs).
Dead game.
BadAim
Profile Joined September 2011
Norway879 Posts
April 08 2014 07:53 GMT
#86
This is an amazing article! Marth for life tho!
My esports soul belongs to: Boxer | White-Ra | Daigo Umehara | Nazgul | IceFrog
oscar62
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada417 Posts
April 08 2014 10:36 GMT
#87
On April 08 2014 16:49 Patate wrote:
I have not watched SSBM tournaments but I am wondering.. is Game & Watch any played? I used to love playing him when we were playing with friends or family (of course we were casual plebs).



he's in the low/bottom tiers, so he barely gets any real representation in bigger tournaments......

but then there's QERB:


bo1b
Profile Blog Joined August 2012
Australia12814 Posts
April 08 2014 11:27 GMT
#88
I feel like there is a pretty good chance that m2k's played every character at a tournament at least once


esReveR
Profile Joined February 2010
United States567 Posts
April 09 2014 01:41 GMT
#89
On April 01 2014 02:11 ICWobbles wrote:
[image loading]
Fox can do a barrel roll.


Fox does not do barrel rolls, he does aileron rolls! But, aileron roll didn't sound as catchy to Nintendo. Don't believe me? Look it up.

Anywho, I think you summed up why people play Fox pretty well.
Skill is relative.
Patate
Profile Joined January 2011
Canada441 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-10 17:46:30
April 10 2014 17:46 GMT
#90
On April 08 2014 19:36 oscar62 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 08 2014 16:49 Patate wrote:
I have not watched SSBM tournaments but I am wondering.. is Game & Watch any played? I used to love playing him when we were playing with friends or family (of course we were casual plebs).



he's in the low/bottom tiers, so he barely gets any real representation in bigger tournaments......

but then there's QERB:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMajdpoMUbc



Damn, these last plays.

But yeah, he does look too squishy and slow to play vs skilled players. Back then however, using his smash would throw out most people above 50%
Dead game.
crbox
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada1180 Posts
April 23 2014 00:56 GMT
#91
Fox is by far the most enjoyable character to play, at least in Melee
Zoler
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Sweden6339 Posts
April 23 2014 23:06 GMT
#92
On April 23 2014 09:56 crbox wrote:
Fox is by far the most enjoyable character to play, at least in Melee


That's my opinion too, that's why I main him.

If he didn't exist I'd probably play falco. No spacies and it would be really hard.. maybe I'd main falcon?

Fastfallers are really fun in general
Lim Yo Hwan forever!
memcop
Profile Joined July 2014
1 Post
July 25 2014 05:42 GMT
#93
You're a fucking dumbass. There is an incredible variety of characters in the game, look at the last big tournies consisting of falco, marth, peach, shiek, pikachu, falcon, etc. How often do you see a pure fox winning a national tournament? That's right-never.

User was banned for this post.
Onekobold
Profile Blog Joined October 2013
244 Posts
July 25 2014 05:46 GMT
#94
--- Nuked ---
yamato77
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
11589 Posts
July 25 2014 06:09 GMT
#95
On July 25 2014 14:42 memcop wrote:
You're a fucking dumbass. There is an incredible variety of characters in the game, look at the last big tournies consisting of falco, marth, peach, shiek, pikachu, falcon, etc. How often do you see a pure fox winning a national tournament? That's right-never.

I don't think you know who Wobbles is, who he plays (his TL account name should give you a clue), or even what he wrote about in this article. Your vitriolic response to an eye - catching title is completely unwelcome.
Writer@WriterYamato
tofucake
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Hyrule19054 Posts
July 25 2014 13:24 GMT
#96
On July 25 2014 14:42 memcop wrote:
You're a fucking dumbass. There is an incredible variety of characters in the game, look at the last big tournies consisting of falco, marth, peach, shiek, pikachu, falcon, etc. How often do you see a pure fox winning a national tournament? That's right-never.

User was banned for this post.

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