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On February 12 2013 06:10 Kyhron wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 05:46 Darthsanta13 wrote:On February 11 2013 15:00 Kyhron wrote:On February 11 2013 14:37 ClysmiC wrote:On February 11 2013 14:27 Kyhron wrote:On February 11 2013 14:08 ClysmiC wrote:
So how much interest would there be for a speedrun of League of Legends?
My buddies and I are trying to optimize beating a beginner bot team in the shortest amount of time. Honestly theres a couple luck factors and its not that hard to beat beginner bots me and 2 buddies bumrushed right down mid in like 8 minutes. The thing that makes speedrunning exciting is part skill part overcoming mistakes or RNG then part speed of course, but beating beginner bots really require skill at least in my opinion Well obviously just beating bots doesn't require skill, but trying to beat them in, say, 5:30 or so does. It's still not hard at all just pick like draven nunu Warwick Xin and sona and it's easily 8 or under. I'm not saying its not a fun idea and a great exercise in theorycrafting. I just don't really see it as a "speed run" IMO You could make that argument for any speedrun, though, couldn't you? The difficulty isn't in completing the task, it's in completing it quickly. Much like the difficulty isn't beating SM64/OoT/whatever it's in beating it quickly, without making mistakes. Except that even in SM64 and OoT there still are some tricks and skips. OoT has things like wrong warp, Forest Escape and Door of TIme skip used to save time. SM64 has an entire trick banned in everything except 16 Star and thats not even mentioning things like bomb-omb clips. "Speed Running" LoL really isnt much of a run since there isnt much you can do to save time besides getting the stronger level 1 champs and bum rushing mid. Theres no glitches or skips or anything its just rushing straight down mid and hoping you do it faster than before
More than anything, imo the reason any LoL speedrun wouldn't be "legit" is patches. If the best strat involves a hero that gets nerfed, suddenly a record may become unbeatable. Patches for PC games are already annoying, a game that changes every couple of weeks and you are unable to play diferent versions is impossible to control. You have to guarantee that everyone is able to play the same game you got your record on.
But that's obviously just something that stops it from being a competitive, seriously speedran title. There is no reason why you should care about it. The whole point of speedrunning is having fun, if for you it is fun to try to get the faster time possible on LoL, there is no reason why you shouldn't do it. It will probally not be a SDA aproved run or something, but if that is your biggest concern you are probally doing it wrong.
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United Kingdom31255 Posts
On February 12 2013 07:21 sixfour wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 03:24 tyr wrote:
Some bigger races on SRL have incredible amounts of players/viewers and some of them even have cash prizes now from what I understand. i'm certainly interested in chucking a few dollars in the way of setting up races on stuff i'd like to see (now that i have my sunday evenings back with no football), but i'm not sure where the best place would be to post on sda, and don't seem to see an srl forum?
http://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/cash_bounties_for_speedruns361.html
Shame that super long JRPG has to be 100% Raelcun 
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Wow is patched incredibly less than LoL though and most of the changes to WoW happen more for end game content as opposed to leveling especially early on.
As a side note to the talk about FF IX record from last week I'm watching Spikevegeta right now and he made mention that Cara has the IX record...dunno if Aro has put up the video of his run yet but I thought it may be mentionable
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United Kingdom31255 Posts
On February 12 2013 08:28 Kyhron wrote:Wow is patched incredibly less than LoL though and most of the changes to WoW happen more for end game content as opposed to leveling especially early on. As a side note to the talk about FF IX record from last week I'm watching Spikevegeta right now and he made mention that Cara has the IX record...dunno if Aro has put up the video of his run yet but I thought it may be mentionable
I have a bunch of things that Aro did differently to the current route I still need to test but I'm not sure if a run is going to be posted or not. For now Cara holds the record and the Aro run should be ignored until I can test everything to make sure its legit (Even though there is still no video proof)
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On February 12 2013 08:49 Drazerk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 08:28 Kyhron wrote:Wow is patched incredibly less than LoL though and most of the changes to WoW happen more for end game content as opposed to leveling especially early on. As a side note to the talk about FF IX record from last week I'm watching Spikevegeta right now and he made mention that Cara has the IX record...dunno if Aro has put up the video of his run yet but I thought it may be mentionable I have a bunch of things that Aro did differently to the current route I still need to test but I'm not sure if a run is going to be posted or not. For now Cara holds the record and the Aro run should be ignored until I can test everything to make sure its legit (Even though there is still no video proof)
I see.....I dunno even if everything he did differently turns out legit I still stand by the no video no recognition of the run.
Also has anyone confirmed that using Trinity Limit in KH2 is faster than whats been done?
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United Kingdom31255 Posts
On February 12 2013 09:11 Kyhron wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 08:49 Drazerk wrote:On February 12 2013 08:28 Kyhron wrote:Wow is patched incredibly less than LoL though and most of the changes to WoW happen more for end game content as opposed to leveling especially early on. As a side note to the talk about FF IX record from last week I'm watching Spikevegeta right now and he made mention that Cara has the IX record...dunno if Aro has put up the video of his run yet but I thought it may be mentionable I have a bunch of things that Aro did differently to the current route I still need to test but I'm not sure if a run is going to be posted or not. For now Cara holds the record and the Aro run should be ignored until I can test everything to make sure its legit (Even though there is still no video proof) I see.....I dunno even if everything he did differently turns out legit I still stand by the no video no recognition of the run. Also has anyone confirmed that using Trinity Limit in KH2 is faster than whats been done?
TL is faster but only possible on KH2-J (Not final mix)
Its a pretty cool strat
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On February 12 2013 09:12 Drazerk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 09:11 Kyhron wrote:On February 12 2013 08:49 Drazerk wrote:On February 12 2013 08:28 Kyhron wrote:Wow is patched incredibly less than LoL though and most of the changes to WoW happen more for end game content as opposed to leveling especially early on. As a side note to the talk about FF IX record from last week I'm watching Spikevegeta right now and he made mention that Cara has the IX record...dunno if Aro has put up the video of his run yet but I thought it may be mentionable I have a bunch of things that Aro did differently to the current route I still need to test but I'm not sure if a run is going to be posted or not. For now Cara holds the record and the Aro run should be ignored until I can test everything to make sure its legit (Even though there is still no video proof) I see.....I dunno even if everything he did differently turns out legit I still stand by the no video no recognition of the run. Also has anyone confirmed that using Trinity Limit in KH2 is faster than whats been done? TL is faster but only possible on KH2-J (Not final mix) Its a pretty cool strat
Yeah it is I was just curious since I'm playing the US version and wasnt sure if it worked or not, but it looks like a sweet strat and a blast to play
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On February 12 2013 04:44 GreYMisT wrote:
Apparently Cosmo just got the paper mario record, Grats to him
I just went and found his run and holy shit he was blessed by the RNG gods. He should have died to Bowser in the hallway (didn't block the block, got poisoned and was pretty much dead - then Bowser did the only attack that wouldn't kill Cosmo (left him with 1 health)) then in Bowser final Bowser didn't heal on low health after using an unexpected wave which kinda messed up cosmo
hilariously lucky but damn entertaining :D
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On February 12 2013 08:49 Drazerk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 08:28 Kyhron wrote:Wow is patched incredibly less than LoL though and most of the changes to WoW happen more for end game content as opposed to leveling especially early on. As a side note to the talk about FF IX record from last week I'm watching Spikevegeta right now and he made mention that Cara has the IX record...dunno if Aro has put up the video of his run yet but I thought it may be mentionable I have a bunch of things that Aro did differently to the current route I still need to test but I'm not sure if a run is going to be posted or not. For now Cara holds the record and the Aro run should be ignored until I can test everything to make sure its legit (Even though there is still no video proof)
When Cara beat Luna's time he basically said no more runs without video. So unless video gets posted we're probably going to keep calling Cara's time the WR.
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United Kingdom31255 Posts
On February 12 2013 11:00 Raelcun wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 08:49 Drazerk wrote:On February 12 2013 08:28 Kyhron wrote:Wow is patched incredibly less than LoL though and most of the changes to WoW happen more for end game content as opposed to leveling especially early on. As a side note to the talk about FF IX record from last week I'm watching Spikevegeta right now and he made mention that Cara has the IX record...dunno if Aro has put up the video of his run yet but I thought it may be mentionable I have a bunch of things that Aro did differently to the current route I still need to test but I'm not sure if a run is going to be posted or not. For now Cara holds the record and the Aro run should be ignored until I can test everything to make sure its legit (Even though there is still no video proof) When Cara beat Luna's time he basically said no more runs without video. So unless video gets posted we're probably going to keep calling Cara's time the WR.
I've poked her about it a couple of times and gotten nothing but the strats most of which don't really make much sense (although some look really interesting I'll admit)
Its a drama for another time and I think we all agree on Cara's run being the WR for now.
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On February 12 2013 07:24 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 06:10 Kyhron wrote:On February 12 2013 05:46 Darthsanta13 wrote:On February 11 2013 15:00 Kyhron wrote:On February 11 2013 14:37 ClysmiC wrote:On February 11 2013 14:27 Kyhron wrote:On February 11 2013 14:08 ClysmiC wrote:
So how much interest would there be for a speedrun of League of Legends?
My buddies and I are trying to optimize beating a beginner bot team in the shortest amount of time. Honestly theres a couple luck factors and its not that hard to beat beginner bots me and 2 buddies bumrushed right down mid in like 8 minutes. The thing that makes speedrunning exciting is part skill part overcoming mistakes or RNG then part speed of course, but beating beginner bots really require skill at least in my opinion Well obviously just beating bots doesn't require skill, but trying to beat them in, say, 5:30 or so does. It's still not hard at all just pick like draven nunu Warwick Xin and sona and it's easily 8 or under. I'm not saying its not a fun idea and a great exercise in theorycrafting. I just don't really see it as a "speed run" IMO You could make that argument for any speedrun, though, couldn't you? The difficulty isn't in completing the task, it's in completing it quickly. Much like the difficulty isn't beating SM64/OoT/whatever it's in beating it quickly, without making mistakes. Except that even in SM64 and OoT there still are some tricks and skips. OoT has things like wrong warp, Forest Escape and Door of TIme skip used to save time. SM64 has an entire trick banned in everything except 16 Star and thats not even mentioning things like bomb-omb clips. "Speed Running" LoL really isnt much of a run since there isnt much you can do to save time besides getting the stronger level 1 champs and bum rushing mid. Theres no glitches or skips or anything its just rushing straight down mid and hoping you do it faster than before More than anything, imo the reason any LoL speedrun wouldn't be "legit" is patches. If the best strat involves a hero that gets nerfed, suddenly a record may become unbeatable. Patches for PC games are already annoying, a game that changes every couple of weeks and you are unable to play diferent versions is impossible to control. You have to guarantee that everyone is able to play the same game you got your record on. But that's obviously just something that stops it from being a competitive, seriously speedran title. There is no reason why you should care about it. The whole point of speedrunning is having fun, if for you it is fun to try to get the faster time possible on LoL, there is no reason why you shouldn't do it. It will probally not be a SDA aproved run or something, but if that is your biggest concern you are probally doing it wrong.
Yeah, patches is one of the main reasons why I don't think there will ever be a serious LoL speedrunning category. But it's still pretty fun to try and get our time down as low as possible.
And there actually are a few tricks. For example, we destroy the first turret before minions even spawn by getting the turret to aggro Heimerdinger's turret, then taking turns teleporting to it to while the rest of the team kills the tower. Additionally, we know a specific timing where 2 of their champs will be in the top jungle and 2 in the bot jungle, and we split up and kill them, then push back mid. There are also interesting mastery and item choices that help optimize the time even more. If anything, speedrunning LoL is just a fun way to come up with good theories of what would/wouldn't work and then test them out. I'll give it to you that the actual execution of those theories kind of just boils down to how well/luckily you bumrush mid (after doing the tricks to kill 1st tower and 4 champs). It's still fun though as long as you don't take it too seriously. I wouldn't ever really consider it a legitimate speedrunning category (primarily because of the constant patching).
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On February 12 2013 11:10 Drazerk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 11:00 Raelcun wrote:On February 12 2013 08:49 Drazerk wrote:On February 12 2013 08:28 Kyhron wrote:Wow is patched incredibly less than LoL though and most of the changes to WoW happen more for end game content as opposed to leveling especially early on. As a side note to the talk about FF IX record from last week I'm watching Spikevegeta right now and he made mention that Cara has the IX record...dunno if Aro has put up the video of his run yet but I thought it may be mentionable I have a bunch of things that Aro did differently to the current route I still need to test but I'm not sure if a run is going to be posted or not. For now Cara holds the record and the Aro run should be ignored until I can test everything to make sure its legit (Even though there is still no video proof) When Cara beat Luna's time he basically said no more runs without video. So unless video gets posted we're probably going to keep calling Cara's time the WR. I've poked her about it a couple of times and gotten nothing but the strats most of which don't really make much sense (although some look really interesting I'll admit) Its a drama for another time and I think we all agree on Cara's run being the WR for now.
I'm running into my own issues and Rini is laughing at me because it's so similar to the problems that Cara went through.
Basically there's a guy who's caused trouble on the SDA forums in the past for being stubborn and wanting to make up his own category definition of 100% RE4 to get a run posted. In the process he pissed of Mike and Carcinogen pretty badly , got a thread locked, took the discussion to another thread got told off, made a new thread and derailed it back to the conversation, then made yet another thread and got it locked again.
He's been posting in the Legend of Dragoon thread and every time I quote ANY time he mysteriously has a time 10-20 minutes better but with no proof. No video, no screenshots, no notes, and his internet is "too bad to upload anything because he has a bandwidth cap." He was in the stream chat quoting numbers that sounded fake the entire stream when I was doing my run and basically just waggling his epeen around for attention. The moment that I posted the final time, only after I gave an actual time he gives his full game estimate which is (surprise) 15-30 minutes faster than what I got.
The problem comes in that he's been constantly just snap quoting times way better than mine and if you add them all up his run should be an hour+ faster but he's only quoting a final time 15-30 minutes faster. 15-30 minutes is within what I can get with a good run.
The kicker is amongst all this, he's been making up bad science to defend why he wants to use Albert (who is slower, and has lower magic defense and generally not safe for a SS run) and still magically has better times using him. When I pointed out specific points in which Albert would actually get him killed he came up with "safe" strategies the next day and is still magically faster. The only "safe strategy" he's posted is to remove the Bandit's Ring and give him a defensive accessory (making Albert even slower) on one of the longer fights in the game which would result in a massive time loss.
To make all of this worse he still refuses to explain or share his strategies, publicly. He's offered to add me on Skype to "discuss" things, but since there are 3-4 people involved at this point I want him to post in the thread and he absolutely refuses to do it. So I just have to trust him on face value and when he eventually "beats my time" because there will be no proof.
tl;dr This guy is lying through his teeth
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Sanya12364 Posts
I don't know about lying, but there's no reason for you or anyone else to pay attention until the Robot brings the goods. It's theory-crafting and he can submit his stuff when he's ready. You really should be ignoring him until that point.
Anyhow, in speedrunning psuedo-turn-based rpg, it's maximizing damage in realtime, so a long slow damage chain might be great in terms of damage per turn but poor for speed-running. You'd have to be paid back in prevent boss attacks or not having to farm up the recovery items. A short animation with large burst might be the best solution even if it doesn't come along often. Of course, being a huge liability throughout the run doesn't help at all. If a character doesn't do all that much damage, you might consider not attacking with the character at all.
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I feel like this may become something that becomes more and more common as speed running becomes increasingly popular. The best thing to do is to start now and say stream/record your run or it doesnt count as a blanket rule. Hell Cosmo, Sig and others stream their practice because you never know when things may suddenly turn into a run at the record. Its honestly kinda bullshit to hear well this person got X time but they didn't stream record it.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Iirc whenever SRL gets their leaderboard up they will be imposing no video no record rule for it. Here's hoping it takes off.
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I'm really looking forward to the leaderboards because it's something that's really needed, and then cosmo can actually stream again as well. He's been spending so much time working on the SRL improvements.
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51497 Posts
On February 12 2013 03:55 SKC wrote:
I think people are obssessed on making things ESPORT for no particular reason. Races are just a small part of the whole deal, WR/PB attempts are still far more important and there you are competing against yourself. Maybe some day you will have a SM64 tournament, but then isn't SM64 the ESPORT? Speedrunning is for me more about self improvement than competition.
Noone cares what Usain's Bolt practice times are, the same way noone cares about Marathon times for speedruns. There is just too much variance and luck involved. A sport where a player will lose solely because he got an extra random encounter or a bad pattern isn't a good sport imo. Most runs can be ruined by luck alone, and that's bad if you put a lot of money on the line. Speedruns need those dozens or hundreds of attempts to be legit.
Calling Sig a progamer isn't that much of a stretch, if your profession is gaming, being called a progamer makes sense. Can you call the Globetrotters professional basketball players?
It shouldn't be an 'ESPORT', per se, but I think 'competitive speed running' of certain categories/games is viable. Just imagine if there was an EVO-like tournament for speed running, with Siglemic and some other guy racing each other in the 70-star category on a big stage. It takes a lot of execution and mental preparation to not screw up. It'd be like watching prolongated rubicks cube solving.
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England2666 Posts
RE: LoL thing - It looks like you guys came to the right conclusion. You can speedrun anything and LoL vs bots is kind of fun I think. With the monthly~ patches it means you get to re-route again and again.
If people aren't giving you video proof you should take it with a grain of salt. I always find it's best to entertain the notion and try and chase the time. Very often people have said time X was impossible and just ignore all these improvements while bemoaning someone who just doesn't have the equipment to record or stream (this happens with the Japanese a lot). There could well be good reasons for not wanting to stream or record a run. The player shouldn't expect to be blindly believed but to discard the run entirely is only going to hurt your own run. If the runner is refusing to share strategies then that partially goes against the sharing mentality of speedrunners but each to their own. My best Ape Escape 3 time (a five minute improvement which was a minute behind the then WR) wasn't streamed or recorded. People believed it because they knew a lot more time could come out of the game. As for recording or streaming a 9 hour run? I can absolutely understand how that didn't happen. It would take me about 30 hours to upload that at any sort of watchable quality. I'm not saying all of them should be believed but don't be too rash or work yourself up about it.
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United Kingdom31255 Posts
On February 12 2013 12:28 Raelcun wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 11:10 Drazerk wrote:On February 12 2013 11:00 Raelcun wrote:On February 12 2013 08:49 Drazerk wrote:On February 12 2013 08:28 Kyhron wrote:Wow is patched incredibly less than LoL though and most of the changes to WoW happen more for end game content as opposed to leveling especially early on. As a side note to the talk about FF IX record from last week I'm watching Spikevegeta right now and he made mention that Cara has the IX record...dunno if Aro has put up the video of his run yet but I thought it may be mentionable I have a bunch of things that Aro did differently to the current route I still need to test but I'm not sure if a run is going to be posted or not. For now Cara holds the record and the Aro run should be ignored until I can test everything to make sure its legit (Even though there is still no video proof) When Cara beat Luna's time he basically said no more runs without video. So unless video gets posted we're probably going to keep calling Cara's time the WR. I've poked her about it a couple of times and gotten nothing but the strats most of which don't really make much sense (although some look really interesting I'll admit) Its a drama for another time and I think we all agree on Cara's run being the WR for now. I'm running into my own issues and Rini is laughing at me because it's so similar to the problems that Cara went through. Basically there's a guy who's caused trouble on the SDA forums in the past for being stubborn and wanting to make up his own category definition of 100% RE4 to get a run posted. In the process he pissed of Mike and Carcinogen pretty badly , got a thread locked, took the discussion to another thread got told off, made a new thread and derailed it back to the conversation, then made yet another thread and got it locked again. He's been posting in the Legend of Dragoon thread and every time I quote ANY time he mysteriously has a time 10-20 minutes better but with no proof. No video, no screenshots, no notes, and his internet is "too bad to upload anything because he has a bandwidth cap." He was in the stream chat quoting numbers that sounded fake the entire stream when I was doing my run and basically just waggling his epeen around for attention. The moment that I posted the final time, only after I gave an actual time he gives his full game estimate which is (surprise) 15-30 minutes faster than what I got. The problem comes in that he's been constantly just snap quoting times way better than mine and if you add them all up his run should be an hour+ faster but he's only quoting a final time 15-30 minutes faster. 15-30 minutes is within what I can get with a good run. The kicker is amongst all this, he's been making up bad science to defend why he wants to use Albert (who is slower, and has lower magic defense and generally not safe for a SS run) and still magically has better times using him. When I pointed out specific points in which Albert would actually get him killed he came up with "safe" strategies the next day and is still magically faster. The only "safe strategy" he's posted is to remove the Bandit's Ring and give him a defensive accessory (making Albert even slower) on one of the longer fights in the game which would result in a massive time loss. To make all of this worse he still refuses to explain or share his strategies, publicly. He's offered to add me on Skype to "discuss" things, but since there are 3-4 people involved at this point I want him to post in the thread and he absolutely refuses to do it. So I just have to trust him on face value and when he eventually "beats my time" because there will be no proof. tl;dr This guy is lying through his teeth
I have something similar with 358/2 days with a guy claiming to have a time 10 seconds slower than my WR on the hardest difficulty which sucks because even with the SRL leader boards neither of us have proof so I can't call him out on it until my DS gets back for the second time.
Speed running drama is fun.
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EPT
