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Hey all, i am not to sure this is the right section, but i am really in need of some advice.
So before i outline my problem, i just want to give you guys and gals a little bit of context, iv been playing MMO's at a tournament level for the duration of their time as an esport and have achieved high rankings, im not going to flash my E-Peen, if you're desperate to see it with links to my MMO profile PM me :3
So whats the problem? well, my sponsors pulled out because MMO's as an esport are dieing rapidly, if not already dead ( iv done a few videos on youtube discussing this subject once again, PM for info, im not going to advertise myself while asking for advice ) so i really need to look at different options for games.
So any suggestions on were my experience on MMO's will translate, im kind of terrible at league of legends in the 300 or so wins that i have on that game, however, i'm yet to "train" league of legends or SC2
so yeah, just any advice would be appreicated, kind of at a loss at the moment, having 14 hours a day free due to not training for mmo's has kind of depressed me :/
Vern.
Poll added:
Poll: Which game should i play?Dota 2 (60) 44% SC2 (37) 27% League of Legends (31) 23% GW2 ( i doubt it will be an esport tbh ) (6) 4% Other ( please comment ) (3) 2% 137 total votes Your vote: Which game should i play? (Vote): SC2
(Vote): Dota 2
(Vote): League of Legends
(Vote): GW2 ( i doubt it will be an esport tbh )
(Vote): Other ( please comment )
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Bloodline Champions may be your style, but its not super huge. They were at Dreamhack though. Diablo 3 pvp may have a pro scene? But no one really knows on that.
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If you spend fourteen hours a day practicing StarCraft, you'll more than likely get good and break into the scene. So far the scene looks good for StarCraft, so if you want stability, its a good place to try and find it, but there are plenty of good players out there, so if you REALLY want to succeed, you'll put those fourteen hours a day to good use.
As for League of Legends, I can't speak on it, so I'll offer the general advice of playing both for a bit and seeing what you're REALLY good at, and going with that, because with the fourteen hours a day you say you've got, you'll probably get good at whichever you play.
Another consideration is your teamwork, since League of Legends is a game that stresses teamwork much more than StarCraft you should take that into consideration.
Overall, you'll be good at whichever you pick more than likely (assuming you put your time to good use) so whichever you find funner or or excel in faster might be what you want to pick.
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On June 21 2012 07:57 Zambrah wrote:
If you spend fourteen hours a day practicing StarCraft, you'll more than likely get good and break into the scene. So far the scene looks good for StarCraft, so if you want stability, its a good place to try and find it, but there are plenty of good players out there, so if you REALLY want to succeed, you'll put those fourteen hours a day to good use.
As for League of Legends, I can't speak on it, so I'll offer the general advice of playing both for a bit and seeing what you're REALLY good at, and going with that, because with the fourteen hours a day you say you've got, you'll probably get good at whichever you play.
Another consideration is your teamwork, since League of Legends is a game that stresses teamwork much more than StarCraft you should take that into consideration.
Overall, you'll be good at whichever you pick more than likely (assuming you put your time to good use) so whichever you find funner or or excel in faster might be what you want to pick.
Hehe, thanks for the awesome input 
Starcraft is the most stable esport for players as far as i can tell, the only issue iv been debating with myself if the fact that i live in England, were our scene is limited to one tournament a year 
but thanks alot for the input, need to think on alot which you said <3
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On June 21 2012 08:05 Vernay wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 07:57 Zambrah wrote:
If you spend fourteen hours a day practicing StarCraft, you'll more than likely get good and break into the scene. So far the scene looks good for StarCraft, so if you want stability, its a good place to try and find it, but there are plenty of good players out there, so if you REALLY want to succeed, you'll put those fourteen hours a day to good use.
As for League of Legends, I can't speak on it, so I'll offer the general advice of playing both for a bit and seeing what you're REALLY good at, and going with that, because with the fourteen hours a day you say you've got, you'll probably get good at whichever you play.
Another consideration is your teamwork, since League of Legends is a game that stresses teamwork much more than StarCraft you should take that into consideration.
Overall, you'll be good at whichever you pick more than likely (assuming you put your time to good use) so whichever you find funner or or excel in faster might be what you want to pick. Hehe, thanks for the awesome input Starcraft is the most stable esport for players as far as i can tell, the only issue iv been debating with myself if the fact that i live in England, were our scene is limited to one tournament a year but thanks alot for the input, need to think on alot which you said <3
Yeah, England isn't where StarCraft is at it's most popular, but if you really dedicate yourself, you could get a team and they'll ship you to tournaments. :-D
Tell me if you ever stream StarCraft, I'd love to help where I can. ^_^
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What about Guildwars 2? There could be this chance that it becomes big, but I really don't know about MMOs, im just speculating.
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On June 21 2012 08:05 Vernay wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 07:57 Zambrah wrote:
If you spend fourteen hours a day practicing StarCraft, you'll more than likely get good and break into the scene. So far the scene looks good for StarCraft, so if you want stability, its a good place to try and find it, but there are plenty of good players out there, so if you REALLY want to succeed, you'll put those fourteen hours a day to good use.
As for League of Legends, I can't speak on it, so I'll offer the general advice of playing both for a bit and seeing what you're REALLY good at, and going with that, because with the fourteen hours a day you say you've got, you'll probably get good at whichever you play.
Another consideration is your teamwork, since League of Legends is a game that stresses teamwork much more than StarCraft you should take that into consideration.
Overall, you'll be good at whichever you pick more than likely (assuming you put your time to good use) so whichever you find funner or or excel in faster might be what you want to pick. Hehe, thanks for the awesome input Starcraft is the most stable esport for players as far as i can tell, the only issue iv been debating with myself if the fact that i live in England, were our scene is limited to one tournament a year but thanks alot for the input, need to think on alot which you said <3
if you can deal with teamwork, which you should be able to being an mmo player, you should go for league of legends, You'll need to develop more mouse accuracy, but you'll need that to be good at either sc2 or LoL
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+ Show Spoiler +On June 21 2012 08:06 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 08:05 Vernay wrote:On June 21 2012 07:57 Zambrah wrote:
If you spend fourteen hours a day practicing StarCraft, you'll more than likely get good and break into the scene. So far the scene looks good for StarCraft, so if you want stability, its a good place to try and find it, but there are plenty of good players out there, so if you REALLY want to succeed, you'll put those fourteen hours a day to good use.
As for League of Legends, I can't speak on it, so I'll offer the general advice of playing both for a bit and seeing what you're REALLY good at, and going with that, because with the fourteen hours a day you say you've got, you'll probably get good at whichever you play.
Another consideration is your teamwork, since League of Legends is a game that stresses teamwork much more than StarCraft you should take that into consideration.
Overall, you'll be good at whichever you pick more than likely (assuming you put your time to good use) so whichever you find funner or or excel in faster might be what you want to pick. Hehe, thanks for the awesome input Starcraft is the most stable esport for players as far as i can tell, the only issue iv been debating with myself if the fact that i live in England, were our scene is limited to one tournament a year but thanks alot for the input, need to think on alot which you said <3 Yeah, England isn't where StarCraft is at it's most popular, but if you really dedicate yourself, you could get a team and they'll ship you to tournaments. :-D Tell me if you ever stream StarCraft, I'd love to help where I can. ^_^
Hehe thanks Zam, yeah SC2 is not the most prized esport in England at the moment, its growing ( slowly ) but it still makes it hard to break into
Thanks for the input :3 and if i end up on SC2 / Streaming ill be sure to throw my links around :3
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On June 21 2012 08:09 Celestia wrote:
What about Guildwars 2? There could be this chance that it becomes big, but I really don't know about MMOs, im just speculating.
GW2 will not be an esport, anyone who thinks it will be has been kidding them selves, sadly they fell into the fatal trap of circle capping being the only viable strategy
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If you want a compeitive game go SC2, Dota 2 or LoL. I am biast Dota 2 vs LoL and don't want to start arguement here.
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Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 08:10 iGrok wrote:On June 21 2012 08:05 Vernay wrote:On June 21 2012 07:57 Zambrah wrote:
If you spend fourteen hours a day practicing StarCraft, you'll more than likely get good and break into the scene. So far the scene looks good for StarCraft, so if you want stability, its a good place to try and find it, but there are plenty of good players out there, so if you REALLY want to succeed, you'll put those fourteen hours a day to good use.
As for League of Legends, I can't speak on it, so I'll offer the general advice of playing both for a bit and seeing what you're REALLY good at, and going with that, because with the fourteen hours a day you say you've got, you'll probably get good at whichever you play.
Another consideration is your teamwork, since League of Legends is a game that stresses teamwork much more than StarCraft you should take that into consideration.
Overall, you'll be good at whichever you pick more than likely (assuming you put your time to good use) so whichever you find funner or or excel in faster might be what you want to pick. Hehe, thanks for the awesome input Starcraft is the most stable esport for players as far as i can tell, the only issue iv been debating with myself if the fact that i live in England, were our scene is limited to one tournament a year but thanks alot for the input, need to think on alot which you said <3 if you can deal with teamwork, which you should be able to being an mmo player, you should go for league of legends, You'll need to develop more mouse accuracy, but you'll need that to be good at either sc2 or LoL
The teamwork side of it is the main reason i even consider MOBA's over SC2
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On June 21 2012 08:11 Vernay wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 08:09 Celestia wrote:
What about Guildwars 2? There could be this chance that it becomes big, but I really don't know about MMOs, im just speculating. GW2 will not be an esport, anyone who thinks it will be has been kidding them selves, sadly they fell into the fatal trap of circle capping being the only viable strategy
Not to mention E-sports actually need to be watchable besides playable... and sadly having the screen filled with 3000 particle explosions and 50 circles on the ground doesn't help the cause.
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MOBAs really, team fights have similaritys to arena in WoW. And theres the teamwork and communication side from MMO days. As for DotA or LoL, whichever you prefer more.
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On June 21 2012 08:33 DannyJ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 08:11 Vernay wrote:On June 21 2012 08:09 Celestia wrote:
What about Guildwars 2? There could be this chance that it becomes big, but I really don't know about MMOs, im just speculating. GW2 will not be an esport, anyone who thinks it will be has been kidding them selves, sadly they fell into the fatal trap of circle capping being the only viable strategy Not to mention E-sports actually need to be watchable besides playable... and sadly having the screen filled with 3000 particle explosions and 50 circles on the ground doesn't help the cause.
hehe - dont get me started, they actually designed the system to discourage defensive play, and encourage circle capping which means the team with the highest movement speed wins, great :3
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Play for fun and don't focus on playing 12-14 hours a day.
Get a non gaming related hobby
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i've never archived anything on MMO besides like gladiator in WoW, but i came to sc2 from it, i did play some wc3 for fun, but nothing more then that it was. So if you know how, and really often more on youself and you got problems with confidence , i choose sc2 over LoL for example. Its really hard , but if you constantly play for lets say 3 months, you will get to the point where you 'll be master at least and things will look much brighter and open for you the at first. Also as you know loses in SC2 are painfull at first ) good luck
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I recently started playing more LoL and getting competitive by doing weekly tournies with my team. It's gets fun when you have a team but by myself I find it quite boring. Or go to dota if you like that more.
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play the game you like most, if you enjoy it enough to where you dont mind losing... start playing serious
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play LoL, its by far the easiest game out of all these
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I would say LoL since its a Team game and its close to something you would see in WoW Arena. Also its pretty popular right now, you said SC2 isn't that big in Europe but I'm pretty sure the LoL Scene in Euro is big, probably bigger than in the U.S.
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If you're looking for stability, SC2 would probably be the best option. LoL is still in its initial growing stage, so it remains to be seen how it works out once it starts to deflate. Dota2 can only go up from where it is now.
It's immensely difficult to break into SC2's pro scene, however. Being a good player isn't enough. You also need some way to get noticed and picked up by a pro team. Some do it by streaming, others do it by releasing a lot of content to the community, still others do it by stirring shit up. You could also place really well at major tournaments, but that's even more difficult, lol.
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On June 21 2012 08:11 Vernay wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 08:09 Celestia wrote:
What about Guildwars 2? There could be this chance that it becomes big, but I really don't know about MMOs, im just speculating. GW2 will not be an esport, anyone who thinks it will be has been kidding them selves, sadly they fell into the fatal trap of circle capping being the only viable strategy
I'm sorry to heard that, to be honest the only thing I know about the game comes from one video, its called ten things you should know about GW2 or something.
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I voted other even though i sort of agree with the people saying dota 2, I'd also suggest HoN, its currently getting a spot in NASL (at least it did) and it just had its first Dreamhack appearance, where the prizes were bigger than either lol or dota, even though the scene is a bit smaller.
Total Prizepools at dreamhack were:
HoN: £40,000
LoL: £27,000
Dota 2: £20,000
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if you have no money worries for the next few years and its a choice between SC2 and poker, id say go for poker..
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Screw the standard Mobas talked about, go for Smite! It's in closed beta, but it is a Moba with an mmo perspective...
Peep this video from Pax
Pax2012SMITE
It's in closed beta but I have some beta keys ^^
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On June 21 2012 09:10 Gulf wrote:
I voted other even though i sort of agree with the people saying dota 2, I'd also suggest HoN, its currently getting a spot in NASL (at least it did) and it just had its first Dreamhack appearance, where the prizes were bigger than either lol or dota, even though the scene is a bit smaller.
Total Prizepools at dreamhack were:
HoN: £40,000
LoL: £27,000
Dota 2: £20,000
dont talk bullshit. hon has been at dreamhack for years. the prizes are only bigger because s2 pumps all their money into a fruitless competitive scene. the "competitive" scene in hon is a joke. and dont get me started on the game/balance itself.
guildwars 2 will sadly be bullshit (regarding pvp) since they sadly didnt copy GvG 1:1 from gw1. which used to be easily one of the best pvp competitions ever.
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On June 21 2012 07:55 TBone- wrote:
Bloodline Champions may be your style, but its not super huge. They were at Dreamhack though. Diablo 3 pvp may have a pro scene? But no one really knows on that.
It won't.
Blizzard specifically said during the beta they weren't going to strictly balance PvP for any sort of competitive scene. It's strictly meant to be a side game.
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lol is outrageously easy, as a 220 APM zerg I had no problem smashing with a few friends who knew the game. QWER all day, no skill. Only frustrating bit is you will constantly lose games in which you yourself perform fantastically.
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LoL, because while I'm going to get some hate for this:
1) LoL is an easier game than starcraft. You can get to the top faster.
2) LoL's graphics are better than DOTA's. This means LoL will probably beat out DOTA in the long run.
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United States47024 Posts
For the question of DotA 2 vs LoL, it depends what level you really want to compete at.
Because of the vast wellspring of DotA experience that the top DotA 2 teams are drawing from, there's an astronomical barrier of entry for the new player who is looking to play competitively. This is further complicated by the fact that you need to actually find a team to play with if you want to compete seriously--having individual talent/skill on its own isn't going to get you anywhere. Just look at the competititors in DotA 2 events. How many teams have players are not already vastly experienced with DotA 1 or HoN?
The scene for LoL is much newer, and is still growing. There's much more room for new players to break onto the professional scene. This is not to say the game is necessarily easier (that's another discussion in and of itself that's not really relevant), but the fact that the scene is still growing means that there's much more room for a new player to do well, get noticed, and play on a competitive team.
TL;DR: Playing on a serious competitive team is pretty much a pipe dream for a first-time DotA 2 player. As much as people might argue that it's the better game, it's much harder for someone's competitive Esports aspirations to come to fruition playing DotA 2.
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On June 21 2012 09:51 Selkie wrote:
LoL, because while I'm going to get some hate for this:
1) LoL is an easier game than starcraft. You can get to the top faster.
2) LoL's graphics are better than DOTA's. This means LoL will probably beat out DOTA in the long run.
wut.
more like LoL has a larger player base, thats going to allow it to survive.
Go pick something you want, if you want a challenge, DotA2 is a good option. SC2 might be way out of your league , so far theres been no high level MMO player who pretty much broke into the proscene and won tourneys and shit. Remember, you won't survive in the scene if you can't stay at the top. Mediocre pro doesn't cut it most of the time, and if you want to be a community figure you have to have something to bring into the scene that is fresh and exiting.
LoL is pretty easy, ranked is a bitch if you don't go duo que from my experience (because if you drop to ELO hell, you're never coming back).
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On June 21 2012 10:07 TheYango wrote:
For the question of DotA 2 vs LoL, it depends what level you really want to compete at.
Because of the vast wellspring of DotA experience that the top DotA 2 teams are drawing from, there's an astronomical barrier of entry for the new player who is looking to play competitively. This is further complicated by the fact that you need to actually find a team to play with if you want to compete seriously--having individual talent/skill on its own isn't going to get you anywhere. Just look at the competititors in DotA 2 events. How many teams have players are not already vastly experienced with DotA 1 or HoN?
The scene for LoL is much newer, and is still growing. There's much more room for new players to break onto the professional scene. This is not to say the game is necessarily easier (that's another discussion in and of itself that's not really relevant), but the fact that the scene is still growing means that there's much more room for a new player to do well, get noticed, and play on a competitive team.
TL;DR: Playing on a serious competitive team is pretty much a pipe dream for a first-time DotA 2 player. As much as people might argue that it's the better game, it's much harder for someone's competitive Esports aspirations to come to fruition playing DotA 2.
This all over again.
If you want to go where the money is, I'd roll with LoL all day. Most professional teams out there at the moment practice very inefficently if you compare them to DotA or SC2 teams. As much as I love watching pro DotA 2 more than League I'm pretty confident in saying that it should be easier to get to the top in League. It's simply way less crowded. =P
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LoL seems like it would be the most similar to MMO's, however I think if you are willing to buckle down and practice all day everyday SC2 will have more opportunity for you.
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On June 21 2012 09:34 teddyoojo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 09:10 Gulf wrote:
I voted other even though i sort of agree with the people saying dota 2, I'd also suggest HoN, its currently getting a spot in NASL (at least it did) and it just had its first Dreamhack appearance, where the prizes were bigger than either lol or dota, even though the scene is a bit smaller.
Total Prizepools at dreamhack were:
HoN: £40,000
LoL: £27,000
Dota 2: £20,000 dont talk bullshit. hon has been at dreamhack for years. the prizes are only bigger because s2 pumps all their money into a fruitless competitive scene. the "competitive" scene in hon is a joke. and dont get me started on the game/balance itself. guildwars 2 will sadly be bullshit (regarding pvp) since they sadly didnt copy GvG 1:1 from gw1. which used to be easily one of the best pvp competitions ever.
Its been there yeah, but but this was the first major 'DreamHon' event that was organised. But honestly "the prizes are only bigger because s2 pumps all their money into a fruitless competitive scene" since when did it matter where the prize money came from? Assuming we're not talking exploitation etc...
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On June 21 2012 11:03 Gulf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 09:34 teddyoojo wrote:On June 21 2012 09:10 Gulf wrote:
I voted other even though i sort of agree with the people saying dota 2, I'd also suggest HoN, its currently getting a spot in NASL (at least it did) and it just had its first Dreamhack appearance, where the prizes were bigger than either lol or dota, even though the scene is a bit smaller.
Total Prizepools at dreamhack were:
HoN: £40,000
LoL: £27,000
Dota 2: £20,000 dont talk bullshit. hon has been at dreamhack for years. the prizes are only bigger because s2 pumps all their money into a fruitless competitive scene. the "competitive" scene in hon is a joke. and dont get me started on the game/balance itself. guildwars 2 will sadly be bullshit (regarding pvp) since they sadly didnt copy GvG 1:1 from gw1. which used to be easily one of the best pvp competitions ever. Its been there yeah, but but this was the first major 'DreamHon' event that was organised. But honestly "the prizes are only bigger because s2 pumps all their money into a fruitless competitive scene" since when did it matter where the prize money came from? Assuming we're not talking exploitation etc...
Well that s2 provided all the prize money, implies sponsors aren't particularly interested
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league is a great game, it proved that you can make a dota-like game without being an exact copy of dota.
people who talk out of their dick assume it's just a watered down clone, but honestly they actually made a lot of pretty big changes to the formula, and in it's current state it's a damn good game.
play dota if you want to fucking play dota
play league if you like dota but don't want to fucking play dota anymore
play something else if it's what you like best!
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as for which is the best to venture into from a competitive/semi-pro player standpoint, i fully expect dota and league to be the two games taking esports to the top, with the starcraft 2's and global offensive's coming along just behind them.
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Get a smurf and pretend to be a random then when you earn an invite to a major tournament you can reveal your history and link everyone back to this blog where hopefully lots of people will go to page 2 and read this comment and then think about the irony of the situation they are currently in.
SC2 because on your deathbed you'll know you made the right decision.
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If you want to make a living poker.
If you want to do e-sports, whichever game you find most fun grinding for 8h+ per day. You won't be able to play it if it isn't fun for you. (I personally find Dota 2 the most fun of those in that list.)
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Do the moba community some justice and play Dota 2.
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Wow, the response has been overwhelming, thanks guys, i really do mean it :3 - you're awesome.
sadly because theres so many of you, i cant answer everyone individually, but its worth throwing out my views on some of the common themes
The Dota 2 Vs Leauge of legends debate
Honestly? when it comes to this debate, sadly i think i would pick league of legends for one reason only, i was in shock when i saw that the majority of the pros train solely by "playing a ton of ladder games" im not sure how training would work in MOBA's having never followed the scene, but as someone who had a strict training schedule and training plans, i cant see how they make anywere near the skill gains they could.
English Scenes
Sadly the english scene for SC2 and MOBA's is kind of dry, fortunately we are starting to pick up some more attention in both areas due to the efforts of our few casters, but the TL:DR of what im trying to say is that my name will almost certainly be made on the internet, and then at lan events ( having said this, my break in to the MMO scene involved me getting to a high ladder ranking, and then walking into a tournament and performing well  )
Genuinely, you guys are awesome for the feedback, i need to re-read and re think before i can say anything more to be honest thanks a ton, and keep it coming <3
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On June 21 2012 13:56 Weebem-Na wrote:
Get a smurf and pretend to be a random then when you earn an invite to a major tournament you can reveal your history and link everyone back to this blog where hopefully lots of people will go to page 2 and read this comment and then think about the irony of the situation they are currently in.
SC2 because on your deathbed you'll know you made the right decision.
im still not sure on which game :3 but yeah i will not be running under my MMO name in whatever game i play
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why don't you develop a real skill instead of wasting your time playing games all day long?
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On June 21 2012 15:45 seequeue wrote:
why don't you develop a real skill instead of wasting your time playing games all day long?
why don't you waste your time posting random stuff
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dont even attempth sc2 if your only platinum, its a huge game of thrones like wall infront of you, just go dota 2 or some game were teamwork is more important 
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On June 21 2012 15:48 sertas wrote:dont even attempth sc2 if your only platinum, its a huge game of thrones like wall infront of you, just go dota 2 or some game were teamwork is more important
hehe, i only played SC2 for 2 weeks :3, when i am playing 16 hours a day again ( at the moment im just doing artwork untill i can figure out which game to train on ) i hope that i can improve rapidly on any game i chose
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On June 21 2012 08:11 Vernay wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 08:09 Celestia wrote:
What about Guildwars 2? There could be this chance that it becomes big, but I really don't know about MMOs, im just speculating. GW2 will not be an esport, anyone who thinks it will be has been kidding them selves, sadly they fell into the fatal trap of circle capping being the only viable strategy
IEM and ESL would like to disagree with you.
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On June 21 2012 15:53 toiletCAT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 08:11 Vernay wrote:On June 21 2012 08:09 Celestia wrote:
What about Guildwars 2? There could be this chance that it becomes big, but I really don't know about MMOs, im just speculating. GW2 will not be an esport, anyone who thinks it will be has been kidding them selves, sadly they fell into the fatal trap of circle capping being the only viable strategy IEM and ESL would like to disagree with you.
This is'nt really the right place for us to debate this, but let me give you the most basic outline of why guild wars 2 will not be competative
they have one game type, which is fine, only is "conquest" anyone who has played leauge, knows that this is very simmilar to there dominion, only there are a few key diffrences.
Mainly the catapult thing discourages defensive play.
this is a problem, because it creates a situtation were circle capping's only counter is circle capping, let me explain.
In a pro game, if you're defending a point with 3 of your players, and the enemy team rushes you with 4 of there players and one on the catapult thing i cant spell.
You are going to lose that point and all 3 of your players will die.
2v5 untill respawn time, well played, you just lost map control.
so how is this countered?
by you running around in circles capping points, trying to avoid the enemies main team and picking of stragglers, we've seen simmilar strategies both in dominion and in World of Warcraft AB, and suprise suprise, neither has been competative, no matter how awesome it looks.
just sayin' iv actually written a 7000 word document on what makes an esport, and where games have failed trying to make one ( i wrote that for part of my degree course which for some reason made me take an EPQ during the course? i dont know, english education is badly organised )
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On June 21 2012 16:03 Vernay wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 15:53 toiletCAT wrote:On June 21 2012 08:11 Vernay wrote:On June 21 2012 08:09 Celestia wrote:
What about Guildwars 2? There could be this chance that it becomes big, but I really don't know about MMOs, im just speculating. GW2 will not be an esport, anyone who thinks it will be has been kidding them selves, sadly they fell into the fatal trap of circle capping being the only viable strategy IEM and ESL would like to disagree with you. This is'nt really the right place for us to debate this, but let me give you the most basic outline of why guild wars 2 will not be competative they have one game type, which is fine, only is "conquest" anyone who has played leauge, knows that this is very simmilar to there dominion, only there are a few key diffrences. Mainly the catapult thing discourages defensive play. this is a problem, because it creates a situtation were circle capping's only counter is circle capping, let me explain. In a pro game, if you're defending a point with 3 of your players, and the enemy team rushes you with 4 of there players and one on the catapult thing i cant spell. You are going to lose that point and all 3 of your players will die. 2v5 untill respawn time, well played, you just lost map control. so how is this countered? by you running around in circles capping points, trying to avoid the enemies main team and picking of stragglers, we've seen simmilar strategies both in dominion and in World of Warcraft AB, and suprise suprise, neither has been competative, no matter how awesome it looks. just sayin' iv actually written a 7000 word document on what makes an esport, and where games have failed trying to make one ( i wrote that for part of my degree course which for some reason made me take an EPQ during the course? i dont know, english education is badly organised )
Congratulations on writing a 7000 word document on what makes an eSport!
Your opinion has been noted, and as written above, this isn't the right place for us to debate this, implying that I ever would. :-)
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I'd say play Dota 2 seriously for a bit, then decide which between LoL and Dota 2 you find the most fun. Both are stable and have good pro scenes. It's my personal belief that Dota 2 will win out in the end since I personally believe it has a higher skillcap than LoL and is more fun to watch as an esport (when you're into it, watching MOBAs when you've never played simply doesn't work IMO), but both games should have thriving proscenes for many years to come.
As for training on the ladder, I do not know if that's true in LoL, but it's definitely not true in Dota 2. Pros train by playing scrims against other proteams, inhouse games with high skill etc. On ladder, they just troll and pubstomp.
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EvE Online and Poker. EvE for the competitive aspect (and if you're really good at tactics Alliance Tournament can be e-peen material if you join the contending alliances), and poker so you have a secure monetary base.
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On June 21 2012 14:34 sureshot_ wrote:
Do the moba community some justice and play Dota 2.
Respect to your view point, the league of legends community is fairly terrible
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On June 21 2012 15:53 toiletCAT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 08:11 Vernay wrote:On June 21 2012 08:09 Celestia wrote:
What about Guildwars 2? There could be this chance that it becomes big, but I really don't know about MMOs, im just speculating. GW2 will not be an esport, anyone who thinks it will be has been kidding them selves, sadly they fell into the fatal trap of circle capping being the only viable strategy IEM and ESL would like to disagree with you.
-you couldnt be more wrong.
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Dota 2/LOL are team games, so no matter how good you get as an individual, it will not be the main measure of your success. SC2 on the other hand, is all on you.
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SC2 seems to be going well.
Regarding mobas go for Dota2 if you must. HoN is the superior game but I fear the competitive seen is going to die out soon. LoL is like selling your soul so you might as well consider getting a law or economy degree.
As a former competitive GW player I will echo previous sentiments and say GW2 will fail as an esport.
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On June 21 2012 15:39 Vernay wrote:Wow, the response has been overwhelming, thanks guys, i really do mean it :3 - you're awesome. sadly because theres so many of you, i cant answer everyone individually, but its worth throwing out my views on some of the common themes The Dota 2 Vs Leauge of legends debateHonestly? when it comes to this debate, sadly i think i would pick league of legends for one reason only, i was in shock when i saw that the majority of the pros train solely by "playing a ton of ladder games" im not sure how training would work in MOBA's having never followed the scene, but as someone who had a strict training schedule and training plans, i cant see how they make anywere near the skill gains they could.
Gather four (I'd actually recommend 9, since A vs B team scrims aren't done either) other people who share this realisation, find some guys from the League subforum who check in on you guys from time to time and I can actually see this work.
Make sure to keep Yango and me up to date, we're preaching since like a year that western League teams "practice" pretty badly. =P
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On June 21 2012 19:54 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 15:39 Vernay wrote:Wow, the response has been overwhelming, thanks guys, i really do mean it :3 - you're awesome. sadly because theres so many of you, i cant answer everyone individually, but its worth throwing out my views on some of the common themes The Dota 2 Vs Leauge of legends debateHonestly? when it comes to this debate, sadly i think i would pick league of legends for one reason only, i was in shock when i saw that the majority of the pros train solely by "playing a ton of ladder games" im not sure how training would work in MOBA's having never followed the scene, but as someone who had a strict training schedule and training plans, i cant see how they make anywere near the skill gains they could. Gather four (I'd actually recommend 9, since A vs B team scrims aren't done either) other people who share this realisation, find some guys from the League subforum who check in on you guys from time to time and I can actually see this work. Make sure to keep Yango and me up to date, we're preaching since like a year that western League teams "practice" pretty badly. =P
hehe yeah, my little 1100 elo face just spent 5 hours getting rubbed across the floor by a 2k elo player who was willing to 1v1 me in mid till i could cs and not feed as vladmir
still havent fully choosen either way yet, just had nothing better to do today
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Well considering we are talking about your career, I think you need to consider many variables outside of just 'which game is more fun'. Granted that this is important, I believe you already have a passion for video games. That, combined with your ambition, will find SC2 / DotA 2 / LoL all very satisfying, and should not be the / only main driver in your decision making. Each of these games go very deep at the top-end skill level.
What I think you need to look at is the company behind each game. Unlike a sport like hockey, where the rules can be difficult to change and are more or less concrete, eSports are still games, are under control of a single entity, and can change things as they see fit. While the companies do have incentives to not introduce knee-jerk changes that would ruin their game, you still run this risk as all decision making is out of your control, especially if all decision making falls onto one person.
Where you should start is looking at Valve, Blizzard and Riot, and look into their management / development teams. Ask yourself questions like "Are they public / private, what are their incentives, do we share similar views in the long term, etc." You are investing your time into one of these companies, and it is an important investment philosophy that you align your investments with your own personal views and incentives. That way you can better understand them, and better predict their outcome.
Next I would consider transfer-ability of skill. Obviously LoL and Dota2 are going to be the closest comparables. You can't invest all your time into something which, if goes sour, you lose all of your investment. You need a plan B.
Consider the pro-scene / viewership of each game. This is your market, and you need to make sure its big enough and experiencing solid growth. You are going to take a piece of that market, so make sure there is enough for you to be satisfied and still have room to grow. I must stress that this should be measured in dollars. Popularity doesn't always dictate wealth, you need to make sure the scene you are entering has lots of equity and that viewers are willing to pay to watch the games. You need to secure payment; living paycheck to paycheck wondering if they'll keep coming is not a good way to live your life.
And then lastly, consider the game. What's the meta-trends like? How accessible is it to people (this is why soccer is so popular)? Is it fun at all levels of play? Is the game so played out its like chess? These are very important questions to ask yourself as well.
I hope these help. They should guide you into your decision making and assist you; there are many more factors to consider.
And because everyone is picking and I haven't played Dota2, I would pick League of Legends over SC2.
Edit: Also where can I get a key to try Dota 2?
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Note, the new Mechwarrior thats due out soon has a good chance of going eSport. Previous Battletec games have had an international tournament scene, even well before the original Starcraft. Combine the newer technology with the online inherent nature, and I think we've got a strong contender.
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I wanted to vote dota 2, but those who did vote dota 2 don't realize the difficulty it takes to maintain a 5-member team. If you have a reliable team, play dota 2. If not, what a gigantic waste of time it can be.
With sc2, if you're good enough, you'll make it. With dota 2, if your entire team is good enough, you'll make it. No way am I relying on 4 other people to be not only as talented, but as hard working, and as determined. It's almost impossible.
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On June 22 2012 00:50 Obsidian wrote:
Note, the new Mechwarrior thats due out soon has a good chance of going eSport. Previous Battletec games have had an international tournament scene, even well before the original Starcraft. Combine the newer technology with the online inherent nature, and I think we've got a strong contender.
Hehe, sadly me a FPS dont mix, ever :3 really rather terrible at them :3
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+ Show Spoiler +On June 22 2012 00:26 Razith wrote:
Well considering we are talking about your career, I think you need to consider many variables outside of just 'which game is more fun'. Granted that this is important, I believe you already have a passion for video games. That, combined with your ambition, will find SC2 / DotA 2 / LoL all very satisfying, and should not be the / only main driver in your decision making. Each of these games go very deep at the top-end skill level.
What I think you need to look at is the company behind each game. Unlike a sport like hockey, where the rules can be difficult to change and are more or less concrete, eSports are still games, are under control of a single entity, and can change things as they see fit. While the companies do have incentives to not introduce knee-jerk changes that would ruin their game, you still run this risk as all decision making is out of your control, especially if all decision making falls onto one person.
Where you should start is looking at Valve, Blizzard and Riot, and look into their management / development teams. Ask yourself questions like "Are they public / private, what are their incentives, do we share similar views in the long term, etc." You are investing your time into one of these companies, and it is an important investment philosophy that you align your investments with your own personal views and incentives. That way you can better understand them, and better predict their outcome.
Next I would consider transfer-ability of skill. Obviously LoL and Dota2 are going to be the closest comparables. You can't invest all your time into something which, if goes sour, you lose all of your investment. You need a plan B.
Consider the pro-scene / viewership of each game. This is your market, and you need to make sure its big enough and experiencing solid growth. You are going to take a piece of that market, so make sure there is enough for you to be satisfied and still have room to grow. I must stress that this should be measured in dollars. Popularity doesn't always dictate wealth, you need to make sure the scene you are entering has lots of equity and that viewers are willing to pay to watch the games. You need to secure payment; living paycheck to paycheck wondering if they'll keep coming is not a good way to live your life.
And then lastly, consider the game. What's the meta-trends like? How accessible is it to people (this is why soccer is so popular)? Is it fun at all levels of play? Is the game so played out its like chess? These are very important questions to ask yourself as well.
I hope these help. They should guide you into your decision making and assist you; there are many more factors to consider.
And because everyone is picking and I haven't played Dota2, I would pick League of Legends over SC2.
Edit: Also where can I get a key to try Dota 2?
thanks for the epic feedback, you really hit the nail on the head about how while fun is somthing that i definatly need to consider, it should'nt be the n1 deciding factor.
i really need to sit down and think of what you've said, its an amazing post, really top notch. thanks :3
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On June 22 2012 01:03 danl9rm wrote:
I wanted to vote dota 2, but those who did vote dota 2 don't realize the difficulty it takes to maintain a 5-member team. If you have a reliable team, play dota 2. If not, what a gigantic waste of time it can be.
With sc2, if you're good enough, you'll make it. With dota 2, if your entire team is good enough, you'll make it. No way am I relying on 4 other people to be not only as talented, but as hard working, and as determined. It's almost impossible.
As a person coming from a team based game, i know what you're talking about here, and there were times, even at the top end of MMO gaming, that i experienced issues getting players who were "talented...hard working...determined" this scares me about MOBA's in general
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On June 22 2012 01:15 Vernay wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 01:03 danl9rm wrote:
I wanted to vote dota 2, but those who did vote dota 2 don't realize the difficulty it takes to maintain a 5-member team. If you have a reliable team, play dota 2. If not, what a gigantic waste of time it can be.
With sc2, if you're good enough, you'll make it. With dota 2, if your entire team is good enough, you'll make it. No way am I relying on 4 other people to be not only as talented, but as hard working, and as determined. It's almost impossible. As a person coming from a team based game, i know what you're talking about here, and there were times, even at the top end of MMO gaming, that i experienced issues getting players who were "talented...hard working...determined" this scares me about MOBA's in general
Yeah.
If you think you can get a nice little team together ,go for DotA 2 for sure. If you want to rely purely on yourself for the most part, def go Starcraft 2. Both games have fantastic futures.
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On June 22 2012 01:15 Vernay wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 01:03 danl9rm wrote:
I wanted to vote dota 2, but those who did vote dota 2 don't realize the difficulty it takes to maintain a 5-member team. If you have a reliable team, play dota 2. If not, what a gigantic waste of time it can be.
With sc2, if you're good enough, you'll make it. With dota 2, if your entire team is good enough, you'll make it. No way am I relying on 4 other people to be not only as talented, but as hard working, and as determined. It's almost impossible. As a person coming from a team based game, i know what you're talking about here, and there were times, even at the top end of MMO gaming, that i experienced issues getting players who were "talented...hard working...determined" this scares me about MOBA's in general
I hear ya man. This is what eventually brought down my halo 2 team back in the day. It was like leading a band where everyone wanted to play lead, but take none of the responsibility.
Sooo hard.
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Sorry if i missed anything, but ex-pro MMO player doesn't say anything to me, if you could specify the games and at whether you were pro in pvp or pve. Thanks in advance
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EPT
