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On September 11 2012 06:03 Pibacc wrote:
People in this thread are so delusional. Talents have always and will always have a cookie cutter set up. There will always be an optimal spec/talents/glyphs to use. Whether it changes from fight to fight doesn't change the fact there for each fight, there is a cookie cutter build and there always will be.
There were some "old" PvP speccs that were pretty "freeform", mainly on hybrid classes.
PvE was allways very clear cut and will basically allways be expect when you put in "core" mechanics like Purge in concurrence to +DMG talents/spells or Buffs that not everyone in your raid/group needs but someone gotta have...
But when you just have to go for max DMG or max XXX there logically will allways be "THE" spec, no matter the system.
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Bisutopia19384 Posts
On September 11 2012 03:21 Daniri wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2012 02:27 BisuDagger wrote:
Anyone see the new talent tree and absolutely hate it? It's dumbed down so much just like Diablo 3. Takes away all the fun choices I loved making every other level. Between this and D3 definitely has deterred me from getting the expansion which makes me sad. But at least I save money. Maybe Guild Wars 2 will be better. There was no choice. There was a right answer and a wrong one. Well, you could choose to be wrong I suppose. Otherwise, all but two or three points for every spec had their correct allottment. With those remaining points you could then choose between talents that would do nothing or, at best, almost nothing for you. If it's choice you want you actually have it with the new system. Its presentation might be less complicated comparatively but the old system's "complexity" didn't produce better gameplay.
Unlike you hardcore gamers then, I never went online to look at other people's build. I would redo talent trees often and go down the road of the three different specs many times. I didn't care if I wasn't 100% optimal. It allowed me to make choices. Now I get to choose 1 choice every 15 levels or something. There are other solutions then the one they made. You can justify what they did but it doesn't mean it was the best choice. They could have still made complicated large talent trees but had better structure and meaning to them. It's called having good game designers putting effort into it. Just take a look at the designers for Borderlands 2, they did a great job of improving their talent trees and give you even more options while maintaining all choices as a good one.
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On September 09 2012 14:47 Arnstein wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2012 02:49 yanot wrote:
He wants to see how it was in the beginning. The official client does not feature the original quests, only the revamped content. Indeed! Is it worth it, or should I just play from level 1 on Mists/Cataclysm?
The original content is really shitty compared to the cataclysm revamps. Some of the best zones in cataclysm weren't the new lvl 80 + ones, but the old revamped ones. Honestly, you're not missing out on anything by skipping the original content wow shipped with ages ago, it's incredibly dated by current mmo standards and much more grind heavy.
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I'm still on the fence about whether or not I'll be buying MoP. Every few patches, they seem to remove little quirks and charms about the game that in my opinion made it feel like a true MMO, whatever that may be. Taken on an individual basis, things such as removing the need to visit class trainers to train abilities (as they've done with patch 5.0.4), or greatly streamlining questing so that each zone is almost completely self-contained, or removing class quests and long max-level quests, among many other changes, seem appropriate in an effort to increase convenience. However, when I look at all these aspects and more as a collective change to the game rather than individually, the price of convenience removes those things that I fondly remember about WoW. Things simply take less time than they used to and, consequently, just don't seem as enjoyable to me. In my personal opinion, the game as I remember it suffers as a result.
Like many others here, I may just be getting tired of WoW after having played it regularly for over 6 years up until a few months ago. I won't expect MoP to revolutionize and reintroduce the little quirks that I liked about the game, so maybe I'll be content to pass on this one.
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On September 11 2012 22:19 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2012 03:21 Daniri wrote:On September 11 2012 02:27 BisuDagger wrote:
Anyone see the new talent tree and absolutely hate it? It's dumbed down so much just like Diablo 3. Takes away all the fun choices I loved making every other level. Between this and D3 definitely has deterred me from getting the expansion which makes me sad. But at least I save money. Maybe Guild Wars 2 will be better. There was no choice. There was a right answer and a wrong one. Well, you could choose to be wrong I suppose. Otherwise, all but two or three points for every spec had their correct allottment. With those remaining points you could then choose between talents that would do nothing or, at best, almost nothing for you. If it's choice you want you actually have it with the new system. Its presentation might be less complicated comparatively but the old system's "complexity" didn't produce better gameplay. Unlike you hardcore gamers then, I never went online to look at other people's build. I would redo talent trees often and go down the road of the three different specs many times. I didn't care if I wasn't 100% optimal. It allowed me to make choices. Now I get to choose 1 choice every 15 levels or something. There are other solutions then the one they made. You can justify what they did but it doesn't mean it was the best choice. They could have still made complicated large talent trees but had better structure and meaning to them. It's called having good game designers putting effort into it. Just take a look at the designers for Borderlands 2, they did a great job of improving their talent trees and give you even more options while maintaining all choices as a good one.
Doesn't matter if it was the best choice; it's better than what we had, which is what you were pining for.
Even granting that you had some form of choice in the old system, what were you choosing between? 1.5% increase in damage versus 0.6% boost in survivability? How meaningful.
Look at this. A framework affliction warlock PvP build for classic. Imp. Drain Life just to get down to SM. So what were your other choices getting down to DP?
Imp. CoW? Terrible. Not sub-optimal; just terrible.
Imp. CoA? Horrible.
Imp. Drain Mana? Atrocious.
Imp. Drain Soul? Um...horrendous.
Now you're left with Imp. Drain Life and Amp+CoE. Imp. Drain Life is better than the above but still not massively impactful. I was a big fan of CoE but I seem to recall there was some debate about it. Anyway, let's get it, max it out and take points out of Suppression and Imp. Drain Life. Now we have 4 points. Shadowburn is so obvious that I think it should be in the framework so now we have 3. So what now? As I recall, I would get Imp. Healthstone but I don't remember what I did with that last point. Threw it back in Suppression I think. But the choice is yours! A wealth of options you have available to you.
Of course, Cataclysm came along with its revamp. No more completely awful talents cluttering the trees, for the most part. Now they're all good. Take a look at this framework PvE affliction build. Truly, the talents are so good now that all you need to do is pick every talent that isn't for PvP in your chosen spec. 9 points left to play with in the other trees. But they're so specialized now that you just have to pick the talents that help you in any way whatsoever because the others won't.
Now, try choosing between immunity to damage for 8 seconds versus 50% reduced damage at all times. And then make a similar choice 5 more times. If your class/spec was lucky you were able to make a choice like this just one time.
What the new system does is relegate what was automatic under the old system anyway to the specialization and then enhances and multiplies the one choice you might have had.
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I'm so confused... I come back because Blizzard gave me another 7 free days of game time and everything feels terrible.
As a druid tank the game is so boring now. I just try to spam the same abilities whenever they're off cooldown, they took out pulverize and our fucking AoE taunt... sigh. And druids have 4 talent specializations but only 2 talent specs available is so annoying, because I love tanking/healing which means I can't even DPS in cat form decently anymore.
Maybe it'll change the game for the better in the long run, but I'm not a fan of these changes so far.
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Bisutopia19384 Posts
On September 12 2012 00:45 Daniri wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2012 22:19 BisuDagger wrote:On September 11 2012 03:21 Daniri wrote:On September 11 2012 02:27 BisuDagger wrote:
Anyone see the new talent tree and absolutely hate it? It's dumbed down so much just like Diablo 3. Takes away all the fun choices I loved making every other level. Between this and D3 definitely has deterred me from getting the expansion which makes me sad. But at least I save money. Maybe Guild Wars 2 will be better. There was no choice. There was a right answer and a wrong one. Well, you could choose to be wrong I suppose. Otherwise, all but two or three points for every spec had their correct allottment. With those remaining points you could then choose between talents that would do nothing or, at best, almost nothing for you. If it's choice you want you actually have it with the new system. Its presentation might be less complicated comparatively but the old system's "complexity" didn't produce better gameplay. Unlike you hardcore gamers then, I never went online to look at other people's build. I would redo talent trees often and go down the road of the three different specs many times. I didn't care if I wasn't 100% optimal. It allowed me to make choices. Now I get to choose 1 choice every 15 levels or something. There are other solutions then the one they made. You can justify what they did but it doesn't mean it was the best choice. They could have still made complicated large talent trees but had better structure and meaning to them. It's called having good game designers putting effort into it. Just take a look at the designers for Borderlands 2, they did a great job of improving their talent trees and give you even more options while maintaining all choices as a good one. Doesn't matter if it was the best choice; it's better than what we had, which is what you were pining for. Even granting that you had some form of choice in the old system, what were you choosing between? 1.5% increase in damage versus 0.6% boost in survivability? How meaningful. Look at this. A framework affliction warlock PvP build for classic. Imp. Drain Life just to get down to SM. So what were your other choices getting down to DP? Imp. CoW? Terrible. Not sub-optimal; just terrible. Imp. CoA? Horrible. Imp. Drain Mana? Atrocious. Imp. Drain Soul? Um...horrendous. Now you're left with Imp. Drain Life and Amp+CoE. Imp. Drain Life is better than the above but still not massively impactful. I was a big fan of CoE but I seem to recall there was some debate about it. Anyway, let's get it, max it out and take points out of Suppression and Imp. Drain Life. Now we have 4 points. Shadowburn is so obvious that I think it should be in the framework so now we have 3. So what not? As I recall, I would get Imp. Healthstone but I don't remember what I did with that last point. Threw it back in Suppression I think. But the choice is yours! A wealth of options you have available to you. Of course, Cataclysm came along with its revamp. No more completely awful talents cluttering the trees, for the most part. Now they're all good. Take a look at this framework PvE affliction build. Truly, the talents are so good now that all you need to do is pick every talent that isn't for PvP in your chosen spec. 9 points left to play with in the other trees. But they're so specialized now that you just have to pick the talents that help you in any way whatsoever because the others won't. Now, try choosing between immunity to damage for 8 seconds versus 50% reduced damage at all times. And then make a similar choice 5 more times. If your class/spec was lucky you were able to make a choice like this just one time. What the new system does is relegate what was automatic under the old system anyway to the specialization and then enhances and multiplies the one choice you might have had.
I agree with everything you said about the talent points in the old system, but I still enjoyed taking the time to spend all those points. I'm not opposed to change. I'm just opposed to how they changed it. They could have left the amount of options available but made each one meaningful. Given the same number of talent points but better options/design is what I looked forward to.
TLDR there are an infinite number of ways to make the talent system better, but instead they made it super simple which doesn't challenge anybody when making decisions. The decisions that are needed for example to respec to defeat a certain boss.
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On September 12 2012 00:59 dudeman001 wrote:
I'm so confused... I come back because Blizzard gave me another 7 free days of game time and everything feels terrible.
As a druid tank the game is so boring now. I just try to spam the same abilities whenever they're off cooldown, they took out pulverize and our fucking AoE taunt... sigh. And druids have 4 talent specializations but only 2 talent specs available is so annoying, because I love tanking/healing which means I can't even DPS in cat form decently anymore.
Maybe it'll change the game for the better in the long run, but I'm not a fan of these changes so far.
That's more or less how I felt on my Warlock. All three specs feel different, both from one another and compared to what they used to be, and that's a plus. However, Destruction is painfully mindless now, and the only reason I don't consider Demonology to be equally mindless is because Demonic Fury management takes a bit of thought. Affliction, despite being an easy spec previously, has been simplified a little further by no longer requiring Haunt to be cast off cooldown but rather only when Soul Shards permit.
That being said, I've been playing the class for a very long time so that may be why I feel this way. Clearly the specs are meant to cater to newer players, but from what I've experienced of the new patch, everything just feels off.
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On September 12 2012 01:13 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 00:45 Daniri wrote:On September 11 2012 22:19 BisuDagger wrote:On September 11 2012 03:21 Daniri wrote:On September 11 2012 02:27 BisuDagger wrote:
Anyone see the new talent tree and absolutely hate it? It's dumbed down so much just like Diablo 3. Takes away all the fun choices I loved making every other level. Between this and D3 definitely has deterred me from getting the expansion which makes me sad. But at least I save money. Maybe Guild Wars 2 will be better. There was no choice. There was a right answer and a wrong one. Well, you could choose to be wrong I suppose. Otherwise, all but two or three points for every spec had their correct allottment. With those remaining points you could then choose between talents that would do nothing or, at best, almost nothing for you. If it's choice you want you actually have it with the new system. Its presentation might be less complicated comparatively but the old system's "complexity" didn't produce better gameplay. Unlike you hardcore gamers then, I never went online to look at other people's build. I would redo talent trees often and go down the road of the three different specs many times. I didn't care if I wasn't 100% optimal. It allowed me to make choices. Now I get to choose 1 choice every 15 levels or something. There are other solutions then the one they made. You can justify what they did but it doesn't mean it was the best choice. They could have still made complicated large talent trees but had better structure and meaning to them. It's called having good game designers putting effort into it. Just take a look at the designers for Borderlands 2, they did a great job of improving their talent trees and give you even more options while maintaining all choices as a good one. Doesn't matter if it was the best choice; it's better than what we had, which is what you were pining for. Even granting that you had some form of choice in the old system, what were you choosing between? 1.5% increase in damage versus 0.6% boost in survivability? How meaningful. Look at this. A framework affliction warlock PvP build for classic. Imp. Drain Life just to get down to SM. So what were your other choices getting down to DP? Imp. CoW? Terrible. Not sub-optimal; just terrible. Imp. CoA? Horrible. Imp. Drain Mana? Atrocious. Imp. Drain Soul? Um...horrendous. Now you're left with Imp. Drain Life and Amp+CoE. Imp. Drain Life is better than the above but still not massively impactful. I was a big fan of CoE but I seem to recall there was some debate about it. Anyway, let's get it, max it out and take points out of Suppression and Imp. Drain Life. Now we have 4 points. Shadowburn is so obvious that I think it should be in the framework so now we have 3. So what not? As I recall, I would get Imp. Healthstone but I don't remember what I did with that last point. Threw it back in Suppression I think. But the choice is yours! A wealth of options you have available to you. Of course, Cataclysm came along with its revamp. No more completely awful talents cluttering the trees, for the most part. Now they're all good. Take a look at this framework PvE affliction build. Truly, the talents are so good now that all you need to do is pick every talent that isn't for PvP in your chosen spec. 9 points left to play with in the other trees. But they're so specialized now that you just have to pick the talents that help you in any way whatsoever because the others won't. Now, try choosing between immunity to damage for 8 seconds versus 50% reduced damage at all times. And then make a similar choice 5 more times. If your class/spec was lucky you were able to make a choice like this just one time. What the new system does is relegate what was automatic under the old system anyway to the specialization and then enhances and multiplies the one choice you might have had. I agree with everything you said about the talent points in the old system, but I still enjoyed taking the time to spend all those points. I'm not opposed to change. I'm just opposed to how they changed it. They could have left the amount of options available but made each one meaningful. Given the same number of talent points but better options/design is what I looked forward to. TLDR there are an infinite number of ways to make the talent system better, but instead they made it super simple which doesn't challenge anybody when making decisions. The decisions that are needed for example to respec to defeat a certain boss.
The talent system was always super simple. In the example given, the optimal classic warlock build was SM/Ruin. Do you remember how this spec plays? Basically 1111111111111111111111111111111111111.
Where 1 = shadow bolt.
To expect them to design much more than 18 cool and interesting talents per class is asking a lot. Under the old system, there were usually only 4-5 cool talents per tree anyway, the rest were basically straight passive DPS increases. There's only so many different unique spells that can be added before they start essentially recycling abilities.
And if there are too many combinations, then in PvP you have no idea what you're up against. For example, against a rogue, you usually expect 2 stuns, followed by other forms of CC, but if there are too many options, you would have no idea what to expect, it would seem random and impossible to plan for.
Do not mistake complexity with depth.
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On September 12 2012 00:59 dudeman001 wrote:Maybe it'll change the game for the better in the long run
See: Wrath of the Lich King, Cataclysm
Anyone who thinks WoW will improve at this point is delusional. It's time to accept that the game has long since stagnated or simply move on to something else. Being optimistic just doesn't make any sense given Blizzard's track record.
If you want to enjoy it then enjoy it for what it is. If you want to enjoy it because you think it'll get better... don't.
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On September 12 2012 01:35 Serejai wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 00:59 dudeman001 wrote:Maybe it'll change the game for the better in the long run See: Wrath of the Lich King, Cataclysm Anyone who thinks WoW will improve at this point is delusional. It's time to accept that the game has long since stagnated or simply move on to something else. Being optimistic just doesn't make any sense given Blizzard's track record. If you want to enjoy it then enjoy it for what it is. If you want to enjoy it because you think it'll get better... don't.
My only optimism comes from Blizzard restricting classes again to not being able to do everything. It brings me back to vanilla when, if you wanted to run the front door of Stratholme, you HAD to have a mage or warlock. I have no reason to believe the Pandaria changes will fix things, but eh, we'll see in a few months I guess.
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I don't get why people dont quit this game. Seriously, after Ulduar everything went to Casualtown. The game is just not fun anyome, because Blizzard patched so many fun things out and made everything so easy...
Even the worst casuals should realize that WoW is on its way to death... FINALLY! Just get over with and QUIT!
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Many QQ and angry tears here. I don't care, I will keep playing anyway because games don't need to be hard to play from level 1 to be fun.
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To be fair.
Early Cata was WAY better than Wrath which for the most part was just horrible...
Heroics were decently hard (until you had gear out of them which, sadly, made them boring again).
Raids were not total freeloot even on normal (not reall hard but at least you could not support having 2-5 braindead people in your raid).
Questing was decent.
Well, i still think some design decisions in early (flying mounts) and leate TBC (welfare items) are what "killed" Wow in the long run. Easy modes for raids was just the nail int he coffin...
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MoP looks really good in beta now. Dare I say that it has the best content at launch? The raids are awesome.
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On September 12 2012 20:16 Wildmoon wrote:
MoP looks really good in beta now. Dare I say that it has the best content at launch? The raids are awesome.
Cata had great content at launch, too. Then it was nerfed two weeks later. Expect the same for MoP.
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On September 13 2012 03:44 Serejai wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 20:16 Wildmoon wrote:
MoP looks really good in beta now. Dare I say that it has the best content at launch? The raids are awesome. Cata had great content at launch, too. Then it was nerfed two weeks later. Expect the same for MoP.
I COMPLETELY disagree with this and most of this thread.. The Best expansion was Burning Crusade.....Cata BROKE the game horribly.. and now funnily enough Pandaria is actually what is going to Fix it and bring people back
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On September 13 2012 03:44 Serejai wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 20:16 Wildmoon wrote:
MoP looks really good in beta now. Dare I say that it has the best content at launch? The raids are awesome. Cata had great content at launch, too. Then it was nerfed two weeks later. Expect the same for MoP.
It IS true that it was nerfed, which I remember hating because I actually enjoyed having a hard time doing heroic dungeons and running out of mana and worry i wasnt going to be able to heal everyone, also the raids were pretty difficult at first which i also liked and those T11 raids remained MOSTLY the same throughout the first patch. The thing with WoW is that outside of 25M Hardmode raiding there is no challenge, because the other more accessible modes (heroic dungeons and 10m raids) are just that, accessible so that people in general have an easy time doing that. I dislike that I'm forced to do 25m HM raids to find a challenge and not have fun in a dungeon that is actually heroic but oh well it is what it is. Also LFR didnt really bother me because there are people who are REALLY bad at this game and they should be able to play it and get nerfed raiding gear, I only did LFR once and never went back so it doesnt matter to me what other people do and how they get to enjoy the game.
Lets hope the new challenge modes (which i been told are pretty fun and difficult) don't get nerfed because the LFR people want the mount and the transmog gear "the elitists" get <.<.
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On September 13 2012 04:01 Jepsyn wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 03:44 Serejai wrote:On September 12 2012 20:16 Wildmoon wrote:
MoP looks really good in beta now. Dare I say that it has the best content at launch? The raids are awesome. Cata had great content at launch, too. Then it was nerfed two weeks later. Expect the same for MoP. I COMPLETELY disagree with this and most of this thread.. The Best expansion was Burning Crusade.....Cata BROKE the game horribly.. and now funnily enough Pandaria is actually what is going to Fix it and bring people back
Did you even play Cataclysm at launch? It was on par or slightly higher difficulty than Burning Crusade was. Then it was trivialized a few weeks later because all the casual players complained they couldn't complete non-heroic instances.
So what, exactly, are you implying that Mists of Pandaria is going to fix in order to bring people back? Current Mists of Pandaria instances and raids are about on par with Wrath of the Lich King difficulty. Easier than BC and Cata were at launch, but harder than Cataclysm currently is.
If it's that difficulty has increased... then you're basing it on the assumption that content will NOT be nerfed. There's a much, much higher chance that content is nerfed a few weeks after release than not. As such, Mists of Pandaria would be back down to 4.3-levels of difficulty again.
So, I don't really understand what you're saying at all. BC was the hardest difficulty-wise with 4.0 Cata being a close second. Mists of Pandaria is currently easier than both of those. So you're saying BC (hardest) was good, and Mists of Pandaria (second easiest) is going to be a return to how things should be, because 4.0 Cata (second hardest) ruined the game. There's a disconnect in that statement...
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Anyone feel like sending a scroll of Resurrection my way? :O PM me please~
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EPT
