EPT- Wich one is more active? has more tournaments? More people online (how many?)?
- Has any of both good "pro" scene?
- Not based on luck (or random events like could make you win a battle)
- More balanced.
thx!
DoW2.. Chaos Rising or Retribution?
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OoFuzer
Chile436 Posts
- Wich one is more active? has more tournaments? More people online (how many?)? - Has any of both good "pro" scene? - Not based on luck (or random events like could make you win a battle) - More balanced. thx! | ||
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Endymion
United States3701 Posts
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OoFuzer
Chile436 Posts
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brichals
Germany50 Posts
Anyway if you want to play campaign you can pick up Dow2 vanilla and Chaos Rising for cheap. It gives a story following Blood Ravens in a typical 40K environment and it's fun. Chaos Rising follows on from vanilla so when you finish that campaign you import your army with all collectibles and progress to fight the next campaign. Both campaigns are massive. About 40 missions in vanilla although a bit repetitive they are good. Nobody plays Vanilla/CR in multiplayer anymore unless you have friends to hook up with etc. It uses Games For windows Live and is dead. Retribution has a relatively boring campaign but the multiplayer is pretty balanced.Buying Retri lest you use all races in multiplayer. Really it is not in a bad state like people say. It uses Steam for matchmaking and although the player base is smallish it is growing and people have quite positive feelings. There isn't a pro scene as such but you might win some Relic goodies or the odd 50$ in the tournaments there are. There are many good players though. It's a bit niche but its a good game. Normally you get 3,000 - 4,000 players online at one time, active player base is about 50,000 I heard. I would say Retribution has about as many players as one of the smaller blizzard servers like SEA or Taiwan but thats a guesstimate. Anyway, you can get games in 1-4 minutes for normal ELOs. If you are in Chile then I'm not sure how your ping will be and if there are many closeby players in your region. Then the smaller player base might be an issue. I don't know if you play other Steam games and had problems. I have to say that to be honest. Although you might get good connection to US players who have a decent player base, so you can find lag free games. Personally I can't play SC2 anymore after playing DOW1 + 2. . I think DOW 2 is superior in every way except it has a few glitches whereas SC2 is rock stable mostly always. If you want stories and campaigns for the lore DOW 1 also has good campaigns (and DOW1 absolutely rocked, nobody can deny that). Worth picking up and playing as they are dirt cheap nowadays and really a good product. | ||
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Manit0u
Poland17350 Posts
Example of how awesome DoW2 can be: http://www.own3d.tv/dow2live#/watch/147651 P. S. Get Retribution. Vanilla DoW2 campaign was nice, CR campaign was crap (and requires vanilla). Retribution is standalone and gets rid of annoying as hell GFWL, it also features campaign for every race, not just Space Marines. | ||
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RolleMcKnolle
Germany1054 Posts
So for multiplayer you should probably visit rts-sanctuary.com and post in the DoWpro Section, to find some gamers. A mod which improved gameplay and has a still active community. | ||
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hotbreakfest
United States145 Posts
On September 12 2011 19:01 Manit0u wrote: brichals summed it up nicely, really disappointed with Endymion's reply too as he's incorrect in basically every comment about the game. You still can't deny that there are many random effects in CoH and DoW that can change the outcome of the game. It's just not a good game for competition when there is too much randomness generated by the system. :/ | ||
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Alex)
Scotland263 Posts
On September 12 2011 21:49 hotbreakfest wrote: You still can't deny that there are many random effects in CoH and DoW that can change the outcome of the game. It's just not a good game for competition when there is too much randomness generated by the system. :/ Whats the random effect or luck that Endymion was on about? Can someone explain? | ||
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Catch]22
Sweden2683 Posts
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Ayestes
United States106 Posts
As far as I'm concerned, DoW2 is just an RTS without macro. Their macro is map control. It's a great game, but it's competitive scene is pretty small. The balance is not nearly as close as StarCraft II for example. | ||
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Thereisnosaurus
Australia1822 Posts
 SeleCT comes from Dawn of war 1 multiplayer was a lot of fun, I didn't play a whole lot of it but I really enjoyed the stuff I did. I was more of a bronzeleaguer than anything, but the mechanics and style of the game are really engaging at any level. From what I know at higher levels it becomes an incredibly intense early game microfest, but at lower levels there's a lot of positional warfare since terrain bonuses are huge. Imagine TVT but all infantry based where you're setting up heavy weapons in craters and such to cover lines of approach, setting up flanks and siege lines, leapfrogging units through cover and so forth. | ||
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NeonFlare
Finland1307 Posts
most of the betrayer dialogues were very good compared to rest of the game. Multiplayer is quite intense at similar skill levels, sure there's lot less to do than in SC and 1v1 can easily become point tag all the way through game unless you manage well with controlling key paths. The thing I really like about it though is how bigger games retain the balance well compared to most other games, you capture nodes for your team, not just for you and the bigger maps can become massive intensive warzones As downside, all players pushing the same route with full force can become quite hard to stop, especially early on, as some units become really scary when massed and have amazing synergy with some others. | ||
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brichals
Germany50 Posts
On September 12 2011 22:27 Alex) wrote: Whats the random effect or luck that Endymion was on about? Can someone explain? There are various aspects of luck in the game, when you consider it's based upon a dice roll tabletop game that is the reason. In the course of a game though it evens out or should do. You may feel like raging if you get a bad call but i don't really see that as a problem. The examples I can think of. Units have a chance to miss with their guns. E.g. A plasma pistol hits light units 80% of the time but large units 100% etc. Some missile launchers etc might have 25% hit chance against some targets for example. I think in BW there was a chance to miss if you fired uphill, its like that but more complex (there are many unit types and modifiers, so much so that I think nobody knows all of them). Stats are hard to find also which can be a bit annoying but there is a guy making a tooltip mod which helps. When you have 2 squads meleeing each other there is a chance that you do a special attack which knocks the other squad over and leaves them a bit unorganised so you can get an advantage. Certain units have a higher melee skill which makes this happen more often but it's still a bit random. You can do synch kills against any units which is an animation making a very gruesome kill, however this lasts for 2-3 seconds so now you have your Space Marine Commander stood in the middle of the battle doing nothing except elaborately disembowelling somebody. This can mess up your plans, your unit takes very little damage during a synch kill so its OK but it can stop you from being where you want to be. Also you might have a squad of 5 units all taking hits and depending on luck you could lose 0,1 or 2 models as when squads target another you can't choose normally which model is attacked. See you control the squad not the individual units. Sometimes you purchase a squad commander that gives you vision or grenade ability for example and it can suck if you lose that guy first, but this has been adressed in the last patch. For some squads the purchased squad leader is now always last to die. These are most of the random effects I can think of but it's not a big problem. They average out, and you have to consider them. If my fresh T1 melee squad fights a T3 melee expert I have to consider there is maybe an 80% chance I will get knocked back and have to retreat. | ||
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deth2munkies
United States4051 Posts
 Although I never was a 40k fan, I preferred fantasy. As people are saying, get Retribution, anything that's not on GFWL, that system is like steam with the user friendliness of a rabid mongoose. | ||
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Manit0u
Poland17350 Posts
Overall I find it way more entertaining than your regular RTS. Map control plays the biggest factor here so there's no turtling possible. CoH vehicle model inheritance is great too, when first veh comes out and enemy hasn't got some hard AV readily available the impact it has on the game is huge as it's virutally impregnable to most of the fire coming at it at the point. Altering the map by removing cover that might be vital for enemy etc. At higher level this game requires some amazing micro and multi-tasking skills, not to mention the timings. Macro is different as it's not based on producing stuff en masse but rather getting right things at the right time because even one wrong, tiny purchase (like getting an upgrade for the squad) can set you back so much that it's going to be GG. | ||
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Latham
9563 Posts
On September 12 2011 23:20 deth2munkies wrote: Real WH40k fans buy the figurines Although I never was a 40k fan, I preferred fantasy. As people are saying, get Retribution, anything that's not on GFWL, that system is like steam with the user friendliness of a rabid mongoose. WH40K figurines.... drugs would be cheaper. Seriously. Play Dow 1 =) real RTS (with base building and teching) + customisable units. The pathing sucks ass though. When you try to unleash a 20/20 infantry and a 20/20 vehicle army the clusterfuck is unimaginable. Dark Crusade and Soulstorm both have a risk style campaign, meaning there's a big map and you set out to conquer it, as do other races. Really fun =) | ||
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Alex)
Scotland263 Posts
On September 12 2011 23:12 brichals wrote: There are various aspects of luck in the game, when you consider it's based upon a dice roll tabletop game that is the reason. In the course of a game though it evens out or should do. You may feel like raging if you get a bad call but i don't really see that as a problem. The examples I can think of. Units have a chance to miss with their guns. E.g. A plasma pistol hits light units 80% of the time but large units 100% etc. Some missile launchers etc might have 25% hit chance against some targets for example. I think in BW there was a chance to miss if you fired uphill, its like that but more complex (there are many unit types and modifiers, so much so that I think nobody knows all of them). Stats are hard to find also which can be a bit annoying but there is a guy making a tooltip mod which helps. When you have 2 squads meleeing each other there is a chance that you do a special attack which knocks the other squad over and leaves them a bit unorganised so you can get an advantage. Certain units have a higher melee skill which makes this happen more often but it's still a bit random. You can do synch kills against any units which is an animation making a very gruesome kill, however this lasts for 2-3 seconds so now you have your Space Marine Commander stood in the middle of the battle doing nothing except elaborately disembowelling somebody. This can mess up your plans, your unit takes very little damage during a synch kill so its OK but it can stop you from being where you want to be. Also you might have a squad of 5 units all taking hits and depending on luck you could lose 0,1 or 2 models as when squads target another you can't choose normally which model is attacked. See you control the squad not the individual units. Sometimes you purchase a squad commander that gives you vision or grenade ability for example and it can suck if you lose that guy first, but this has been adressed in the last patch. For some squads the purchased squad leader is now always last to die. These are most of the random effects I can think of but it's not a big problem. They average out, and you have to consider them. If my fresh T1 melee squad fights a T3 melee expert I have to consider there is maybe an 80% chance I will get knocked back and have to retreat. Thanks for explaining i played dow 1 and 2 casual nothing serious had no idea there was miss chances | ||
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Hasuu
Canada178 Posts
Gamereplays.org has the most consistent community, and relicnews.com is the next one. I personally worked on these games and loved every minute of it. | ||
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masterbreti
Korea (South)2711 Posts
Though Their isn't a pro "scene," like sc2, where the top players all have teams and are paid a salary. There are top players who are considered the best and who win all the tournaments, or make it into the finals. | ||
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hotbreakfest
United States145 Posts
On September 12 2011 23:59 Manit0u wrote: I disagree with random stuff making the game not competetive. CoH was pretty damn competetive and had some really great players. And this random things can be amazing from spectator perspective because they allow for some epic stuff to happen (which most likely makes players rage but spectators are jizzing all over the place), like powerful shots missing a 1hp guy/vehicle which allows him to survive. Overall I find it way more entertaining than your regular RTS. Map control plays the biggest factor here so there's no turtling possible. CoH vehicle model inheritance is great too, when first veh comes out and enemy hasn't got some hard AV readily available the impact it has on the game is huge as it's virutally impregnable to most of the fire coming at it at the point. Altering the map by removing cover that might be vital for enemy etc. At higher level this game requires some amazing micro and multi-tasking skills, not to mention the timings. Macro is different as it's not based on producing stuff en masse but rather getting right things at the right time because even one wrong, tiny purchase (like getting an upgrade for the squad) can set you back so much that it's going to be GG. People can make any game competitive. That doesn't mean it's a good game to do so. The games are certainly fun, but fun is subjective and not the former. There is a bit of randomness in every game, because humans are inherently unpredictable. It's a good thing to have this player-generated randomness, because it unlocks another layer of mind games. Why do you think scouting is so important in RTS-games? It reduces the amount of guessing the scouting player needs to do. Having a system that projects a lot of it's own randomness is NOT a good thing. There is simply no need to make the player worried that his AT might miss it's first shot on an enemy panzer and gets a damaged infantry squad blown to pieces. I'm a bit of a AoE/AoM junkie and I'll tell you that slightly randomized resources on the map made me very worried when I used to play rank. Examples of this would be: - Having your hunts just a little too far away from your initial town center can significantly screw up your age times - Having your 2nd or 3rd gold mine a little too far forward makes your villagers more vulnerable to raids - On water maps, having your fish a little too spread out forces you to build more docks to increase their efficiency (drop-off points) in gathering food and more garrison points to protect from enemy warships. Not to mention the extra docks become a liability, because they are vulnerable to enemy land units and higher tier warships. Little things like that don't influence the outcome of the game too much. However, when there are MANY small system-generated random factors it can definitely make an impact on who wins. The better player will still win the majority of the time, but he/she could be winning more if it wasn't for all those little random factors. You can go ahead and call me an AoE/SC elitist, but the amount of macro in Relic RTS games is as minimal as it gets. Don't get me wrong though, Relic games still put an excellent emphasis on zoning (map control), well-timed pressure, and positioning, but removing a lot of macro also removes depth. You claim that the DoW and CoH systems make turtling obsolete. That is removing depth, because turtling is a legitimate strategy. Fighting turtles can definitely be boring and annoying, but removing them takes out potential options from the game. You can turtle in both SC and AoE and it won't always win you the game, but it's still a viable option that can save you by playing your cards right. | ||
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