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The interactions in PoE are orders of magnitude more complex than... pretty much any other comparable game.
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On November 30 2013 05:02 Markwerf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2013 04:52 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On November 29 2013 20:14 HolydaKing wrote:
Hmm, the patch kind of changed my build I think. Going for the bow crit nodes doesn't seem worthwhile anymore for Cast on Crit Quill Rain builds, I feel. The Deadly Draw buff is more of a nerf (unless I underrate Crit multiplier; though that one should also be only for bow dmg?), since you now need one more (useless) node to get to it. Probably better off to just pick 15% crit nodes somewhere that apply to spells as well. All those nodes are for bows only of course; it probably is more efficient to head elsewhere to pick up nodes that work globally. On November 30 2013 00:09 Markwerf wrote:On November 29 2013 23:01 oneofthem wrote:
i guess if you've played d2 etc then the mechanics should be somewhat expected, considering this game is largely inspired by d2 and all. but as a fresh introduction to the genre it can be a bit overwhelming yes and no, I have played d2 but some things look similar to it but actually work just a tad different. Take for example increased critical strike multiplier. The way it works is like this, your basic critical strike multiplier is 150%. If you have have say 20% increased critical strike multiplier your critical strike damage will be 150 * 1.2 = 180%. In other words 10% of critical strike multiplier gives 15% increased critical strike damage. The latter way is how this is usually described in diablo games or other stuff and I don't see why it wasn't used here. I think it's just a source of confusion and probably a reason why many underrate critical strike multiplier nodes. It's not that the stuff is very complicated, it's just not all intuitive and you generally have to go to other sources to find out what it means which is less the case in diablo or other RPGs. Another example, 'increased' means it's a percentage while 'additional' (like in block chance) actually means percentage points. Not difficult but is it intuitive, I think just a little bolding of words (to indicate they are keywords) would have been nice. Another small thing is with gear, it took me a while to realize at first that most mods like increased energy shield are local modifiers only. I find it intuitive that if a shield says "20% increased armor" that would be over my entire armor not just what is provided by the shield. Again not difficult at all, just not the most intuitive. Small tooltips or things to make it more clear would have been easy. The assumption that mechanics should work a certain way when they don't is your problem. Stop assuming everything works exactly like every other game you've played and look at the actual numbers that are provided on the character sheet. Making bad assumptions when everything in the game is well documented is why I called your opinion wrong. stop being an ass. The thing is everything is NOT well documented, there is tons of stuff you can't find or the stuff you find is mostly wrong and you have to get it from unofficial sources. Anyway I'm not saying this is a big issue, it was just a minor annoyance for me and I know many others agree on this point. Why does some idiot always have to respond with basically some sort of 'it's fine just learn 2 play n00b' type of comment..
Which in-game mechanic doesn't make sense to you?
Whether it for example says "Increased Melee Damage" or "Increased Damage with Melee Weapons" they both, while maybe confusing to someone who isn't used to a game using actual proper and coherent wording, do *exactly* what they say. % damage converted or % damage added, your crit chances and modifiers - it's all worded very precisely and the precise wording actually matters.
Absolute worst case all you need is a quick google search with the two things in there that confuse you and you'll get a result that explains it well.
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On November 30 2013 05:02 Markwerf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2013 04:52 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On November 29 2013 20:14 HolydaKing wrote:
Hmm, the patch kind of changed my build I think. Going for the bow crit nodes doesn't seem worthwhile anymore for Cast on Crit Quill Rain builds, I feel. The Deadly Draw buff is more of a nerf (unless I underrate Crit multiplier; though that one should also be only for bow dmg?), since you now need one more (useless) node to get to it. Probably better off to just pick 15% crit nodes somewhere that apply to spells as well. All those nodes are for bows only of course; it probably is more efficient to head elsewhere to pick up nodes that work globally. On November 30 2013 00:09 Markwerf wrote:On November 29 2013 23:01 oneofthem wrote:
i guess if you've played d2 etc then the mechanics should be somewhat expected, considering this game is largely inspired by d2 and all. but as a fresh introduction to the genre it can be a bit overwhelming yes and no, I have played d2 but some things look similar to it but actually work just a tad different. Take for example increased critical strike multiplier. The way it works is like this, your basic critical strike multiplier is 150%. If you have have say 20% increased critical strike multiplier your critical strike damage will be 150 * 1.2 = 180%. In other words 10% of critical strike multiplier gives 15% increased critical strike damage. The latter way is how this is usually described in diablo games or other stuff and I don't see why it wasn't used here. I think it's just a source of confusion and probably a reason why many underrate critical strike multiplier nodes. It's not that the stuff is very complicated, it's just not all intuitive and you generally have to go to other sources to find out what it means which is less the case in diablo or other RPGs. Another example, 'increased' means it's a percentage while 'additional' (like in block chance) actually means percentage points. Not difficult but is it intuitive, I think just a little bolding of words (to indicate they are keywords) would have been nice. Another small thing is with gear, it took me a while to realize at first that most mods like increased energy shield are local modifiers only. I find it intuitive that if a shield says "20% increased armor" that would be over my entire armor not just what is provided by the shield. Again not difficult at all, just not the most intuitive. Small tooltips or things to make it more clear would have been easy. The assumption that mechanics should work a certain way when they don't is your problem. Stop assuming everything works exactly like every other game you've played and look at the actual numbers that are provided on the character sheet. Making bad assumptions when everything in the game is well documented is why I called your opinion wrong. stop being an ass. The thing is everything is NOT well documented, there is tons of stuff you can't find or the stuff you find is mostly wrong and you have to get it from unofficial sources. Anyway I'm not saying this is a big issue, it was just a minor annoyance for me and I know many others agree on this point. Why does some idiot always have to respond with basically some sort of 'it's fine just learn 2 play n00b' type of comment..
It mostly stems from the fact that everything is actually documented pretty well. The fact that you mentioned that you find wrong information on third party sites is what pisses me off the most. Why are you looking at third party sites when everything is documented on the official website. Like I could link you to the mechanics thread and answer all your questions so far. It is literally that simple and easy.
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Just started a new character if anyone wants to re-roll/play on domination; I'm still fairly new to the game. Sdubbstwo is my char
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On November 30 2013 05:16 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2013 05:02 Markwerf wrote:On November 30 2013 04:52 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On November 29 2013 20:14 HolydaKing wrote:
Hmm, the patch kind of changed my build I think. Going for the bow crit nodes doesn't seem worthwhile anymore for Cast on Crit Quill Rain builds, I feel. The Deadly Draw buff is more of a nerf (unless I underrate Crit multiplier; though that one should also be only for bow dmg?), since you now need one more (useless) node to get to it. Probably better off to just pick 15% crit nodes somewhere that apply to spells as well. All those nodes are for bows only of course; it probably is more efficient to head elsewhere to pick up nodes that work globally. On November 30 2013 00:09 Markwerf wrote:On November 29 2013 23:01 oneofthem wrote:
i guess if you've played d2 etc then the mechanics should be somewhat expected, considering this game is largely inspired by d2 and all. but as a fresh introduction to the genre it can be a bit overwhelming yes and no, I have played d2 but some things look similar to it but actually work just a tad different. Take for example increased critical strike multiplier. The way it works is like this, your basic critical strike multiplier is 150%. If you have have say 20% increased critical strike multiplier your critical strike damage will be 150 * 1.2 = 180%. In other words 10% of critical strike multiplier gives 15% increased critical strike damage. The latter way is how this is usually described in diablo games or other stuff and I don't see why it wasn't used here. I think it's just a source of confusion and probably a reason why many underrate critical strike multiplier nodes. It's not that the stuff is very complicated, it's just not all intuitive and you generally have to go to other sources to find out what it means which is less the case in diablo or other RPGs. Another example, 'increased' means it's a percentage while 'additional' (like in block chance) actually means percentage points. Not difficult but is it intuitive, I think just a little bolding of words (to indicate they are keywords) would have been nice. Another small thing is with gear, it took me a while to realize at first that most mods like increased energy shield are local modifiers only. I find it intuitive that if a shield says "20% increased armor" that would be over my entire armor not just what is provided by the shield. Again not difficult at all, just not the most intuitive. Small tooltips or things to make it more clear would have been easy. The assumption that mechanics should work a certain way when they don't is your problem. Stop assuming everything works exactly like every other game you've played and look at the actual numbers that are provided on the character sheet. Making bad assumptions when everything in the game is well documented is why I called your opinion wrong. stop being an ass. The thing is everything is NOT well documented, there is tons of stuff you can't find or the stuff you find is mostly wrong and you have to get it from unofficial sources. Anyway I'm not saying this is a big issue, it was just a minor annoyance for me and I know many others agree on this point. Why does some idiot always have to respond with basically some sort of 'it's fine just learn 2 play n00b' type of comment.. It mostly stems from the fact that everything is actually documented pretty well. The fact that you mentioned that you find wrong information on third party sites is what pisses me off the most. Why are you looking at third party sites when everything is documented on the official website. Like I could link you to the mechanics thread and answer all your questions so far. It is literally that simple and easy.
right ok link me the official sources for what prefixes and suffixes a wand can roll.
Also link me the workings or probabilities for chromatic orbs, orb of fusings etc.
also link if cold damage bonusses, spell damage bonusses and elemental damage bonusses work additively or multiplicatively.
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Vatican City State2902 Posts
I think I've learned pretty much that leveling with cleave and leap slam (and heavy strike for single target) is pretty much the most fun way to play normal, no matter what you're actually going to be. Finally got my new EK marauder up to a3 after a number of failed attempts at various fire damage-oriented templars, witches, and marauders.
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Wands roll EVERYTHING its awful lol.
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Nocticate, you haven't seen Spectral Throw yet.
That thing is so OP, it's ridiculously funny.
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On November 30 2013 05:47 Markwerf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2013 05:16 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On November 30 2013 05:02 Markwerf wrote:On November 30 2013 04:52 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On November 29 2013 20:14 HolydaKing wrote:
Hmm, the patch kind of changed my build I think. Going for the bow crit nodes doesn't seem worthwhile anymore for Cast on Crit Quill Rain builds, I feel. The Deadly Draw buff is more of a nerf (unless I underrate Crit multiplier; though that one should also be only for bow dmg?), since you now need one more (useless) node to get to it. Probably better off to just pick 15% crit nodes somewhere that apply to spells as well. All those nodes are for bows only of course; it probably is more efficient to head elsewhere to pick up nodes that work globally. On November 30 2013 00:09 Markwerf wrote:On November 29 2013 23:01 oneofthem wrote:
i guess if you've played d2 etc then the mechanics should be somewhat expected, considering this game is largely inspired by d2 and all. but as a fresh introduction to the genre it can be a bit overwhelming yes and no, I have played d2 but some things look similar to it but actually work just a tad different. Take for example increased critical strike multiplier. The way it works is like this, your basic critical strike multiplier is 150%. If you have have say 20% increased critical strike multiplier your critical strike damage will be 150 * 1.2 = 180%. In other words 10% of critical strike multiplier gives 15% increased critical strike damage. The latter way is how this is usually described in diablo games or other stuff and I don't see why it wasn't used here. I think it's just a source of confusion and probably a reason why many underrate critical strike multiplier nodes. It's not that the stuff is very complicated, it's just not all intuitive and you generally have to go to other sources to find out what it means which is less the case in diablo or other RPGs. Another example, 'increased' means it's a percentage while 'additional' (like in block chance) actually means percentage points. Not difficult but is it intuitive, I think just a little bolding of words (to indicate they are keywords) would have been nice. Another small thing is with gear, it took me a while to realize at first that most mods like increased energy shield are local modifiers only. I find it intuitive that if a shield says "20% increased armor" that would be over my entire armor not just what is provided by the shield. Again not difficult at all, just not the most intuitive. Small tooltips or things to make it more clear would have been easy. The assumption that mechanics should work a certain way when they don't is your problem. Stop assuming everything works exactly like every other game you've played and look at the actual numbers that are provided on the character sheet. Making bad assumptions when everything in the game is well documented is why I called your opinion wrong. stop being an ass. The thing is everything is NOT well documented, there is tons of stuff you can't find or the stuff you find is mostly wrong and you have to get it from unofficial sources. Anyway I'm not saying this is a big issue, it was just a minor annoyance for me and I know many others agree on this point. Why does some idiot always have to respond with basically some sort of 'it's fine just learn 2 play n00b' type of comment.. It mostly stems from the fact that everything is actually documented pretty well. The fact that you mentioned that you find wrong information on third party sites is what pisses me off the most. Why are you looking at third party sites when everything is documented on the official website. Like I could link you to the mechanics thread and answer all your questions so far. It is literally that simple and easy. right ok link me the official sources for what prefixes and suffixes a wand can roll. Also link me the workings or probabilities for chromatic orbs, orb of fusings etc. also link if cold damage bonusses, spell damage bonusses and elemental damage bonusses work additively or multiplicatively.
No game tells you exactly what prefixes and suffixes can roll on an item. Does Blizzard tell you what the maximum attribute rolls are on items in Diablo 3? No it doesn't. You can easily figure this out however by searching an indexer for say maximum life on a helmet and discover that none of them have more than 99. Your expectations are unrealistic.
The probabilities are also unreleased, although there are quite a number of studies on the official forums where people have accumulated data to determine them. Sadly the good resource for this became useless when the values were changed with the addition of quality affecting chance.
In general, integer modifiers are applied before percentages. Percentage modifiers using the words "% increased" or "% reduced" stack additively with one another, while "% more" and "% less" modifiers stack multiplicatively.
When dealing with weapons, some modifiers that are listed on the weapon itself are applied first, before mods from other pieces of equipment, skills, and so on. This includes anything affecting physical damage, such as increased physical damage, added physical damage, quality etc., and also attack speed, critical strike chance, and accuracy. It does not include elemental damage mods. These can be called local modifiers - any modifier marked as "global," such as %increased Global Critical Strike Modifier, is not applied to the weapon first.
Similarly, when dealing with armour, evasion, and energy shield on armour, any modifiers affecting those stats that are listed on the piece of armour are applied first. This includes quality and any other mods directly affecting armour, evasion, or energy shield amount. It does not include mods affecting the energy shield recharge delay or regeneration rate, only the amount of energy shield.
Imagine I have 100 life, and two passive skills that each increase total life by 15%. The total bonus will be 30%, resulting in 130 life. Now imagine I am wearing boots that give +40 life, and have a passive skill that grants +20 life. The integer bonuses are applied first, giving me 160 life, then the percentage bonuses are applied to that subtotal, for a final total of 208 life.
Quality behaves differently on armour and flasks than on weapons. On armour and flasks, it stacks multiplicatively with other modifiers on that piece of equipment. Quality on weapons stacks additively with other % modifiers on the weapon.
For example, let's look at a Horned Casque with +69 armour, 9% increased armour, and 20% quality.
This Horned Casque has a base armour rating of 428. Then the +69 is added to get 497 armour. Then the 9% bonus raises it to 541, and finally +20% quality results in 650 armour.
Another example calculation
If you had a sword whose unmodified damage is 10-20, with the following modifiers:
50% increased physical damage on the weapon;
20% quality on the weapon;
5-10 added physical damage on the weapon;
passive skills granting 30% increased sword damage;
a skill that does 40% increased damage and 30% less damage;
the calculation would would look like this:
Base damage: 10-20
Stage 1, on-weapon modifiers: (10-20 + 5-10) x (1 + 0.5 + 0.2) = 25.5-51
Stage 2, all other modifiers: (25.5-51) x (1 + 0.3 + 0.4) x 0.7 = 30-61
From the mechanics thread. I do question why you want to calculate these things yourself though when the character sheet tells you how much dps you do. There are several spreadsheets that have been made as well. I can link you the one I use if you want it.
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+ Show Spoiler +On November 30 2013 06:00 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2013 05:47 Markwerf wrote:On November 30 2013 05:16 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On November 30 2013 05:02 Markwerf wrote:On November 30 2013 04:52 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On November 29 2013 20:14 HolydaKing wrote:
Hmm, the patch kind of changed my build I think. Going for the bow crit nodes doesn't seem worthwhile anymore for Cast on Crit Quill Rain builds, I feel. The Deadly Draw buff is more of a nerf (unless I underrate Crit multiplier; though that one should also be only for bow dmg?), since you now need one more (useless) node to get to it. Probably better off to just pick 15% crit nodes somewhere that apply to spells as well. All those nodes are for bows only of course; it probably is more efficient to head elsewhere to pick up nodes that work globally. On November 30 2013 00:09 Markwerf wrote:On November 29 2013 23:01 oneofthem wrote:
i guess if you've played d2 etc then the mechanics should be somewhat expected, considering this game is largely inspired by d2 and all. but as a fresh introduction to the genre it can be a bit overwhelming yes and no, I have played d2 but some things look similar to it but actually work just a tad different. Take for example increased critical strike multiplier. The way it works is like this, your basic critical strike multiplier is 150%. If you have have say 20% increased critical strike multiplier your critical strike damage will be 150 * 1.2 = 180%. In other words 10% of critical strike multiplier gives 15% increased critical strike damage. The latter way is how this is usually described in diablo games or other stuff and I don't see why it wasn't used here. I think it's just a source of confusion and probably a reason why many underrate critical strike multiplier nodes. It's not that the stuff is very complicated, it's just not all intuitive and you generally have to go to other sources to find out what it means which is less the case in diablo or other RPGs. Another example, 'increased' means it's a percentage while 'additional' (like in block chance) actually means percentage points. Not difficult but is it intuitive, I think just a little bolding of words (to indicate they are keywords) would have been nice. Another small thing is with gear, it took me a while to realize at first that most mods like increased energy shield are local modifiers only. I find it intuitive that if a shield says "20% increased armor" that would be over my entire armor not just what is provided by the shield. Again not difficult at all, just not the most intuitive. Small tooltips or things to make it more clear would have been easy. The assumption that mechanics should work a certain way when they don't is your problem. Stop assuming everything works exactly like every other game you've played and look at the actual numbers that are provided on the character sheet. Making bad assumptions when everything in the game is well documented is why I called your opinion wrong. stop being an ass. The thing is everything is NOT well documented, there is tons of stuff you can't find or the stuff you find is mostly wrong and you have to get it from unofficial sources. Anyway I'm not saying this is a big issue, it was just a minor annoyance for me and I know many others agree on this point. Why does some idiot always have to respond with basically some sort of 'it's fine just learn 2 play n00b' type of comment.. It mostly stems from the fact that everything is actually documented pretty well. The fact that you mentioned that you find wrong information on third party sites is what pisses me off the most. Why are you looking at third party sites when everything is documented on the official website. Like I could link you to the mechanics thread and answer all your questions so far. It is literally that simple and easy. right ok link me the official sources for what prefixes and suffixes a wand can roll. Also link me the workings or probabilities for chromatic orbs, orb of fusings etc. also link if cold damage bonusses, spell damage bonusses and elemental damage bonusses work additively or multiplicatively. No game tells you exactly what prefixes and suffixes can roll on an item. Does Blizzard tell you what the maximum attribute rolls are on items in Diablo 3? No it doesn't. You can easily figure this out however by searching an indexer for say maximum life on a helmet and discover that none of them have more than 99. Your expectations are unrealistic. The probabilities are also unreleased, although there are quite a number of studies on the official forums where people have accumulated data to determine them. Sadly the good resource for this became useless when the values were changed with the addition of quality affecting chance. Show nested quote +In general, integer modifiers are applied before percentages. Percentage modifiers using the words "% increased" or "% reduced" stack additively with one another, while "% more" and "% less" modifiers stack multiplicatively.
When dealing with weapons, some modifiers that are listed on the weapon itself are applied first, before mods from other pieces of equipment, skills, and so on. This includes anything affecting physical damage, such as increased physical damage, added physical damage, quality etc., and also attack speed, critical strike chance, and accuracy. It does not include elemental damage mods. These can be called local modifiers - any modifier marked as "global," such as %increased Global Critical Strike Modifier, is not applied to the weapon first.
Similarly, when dealing with armour, evasion, and energy shield on armour, any modifiers affecting those stats that are listed on the piece of armour are applied first. This includes quality and any other mods directly affecting armour, evasion, or energy shield amount. It does not include mods affecting the energy shield recharge delay or regeneration rate, only the amount of energy shield.
Imagine I have 100 life, and two passive skills that each increase total life by 15%. The total bonus will be 30%, resulting in 130 life. Now imagine I am wearing boots that give +40 life, and have a passive skill that grants +20 life. The integer bonuses are applied first, giving me 160 life, then the percentage bonuses are applied to that subtotal, for a final total of 208 life.
Quality behaves differently on armour and flasks than on weapons. On armour and flasks, it stacks multiplicatively with other modifiers on that piece of equipment. Quality on weapons stacks additively with other % modifiers on the weapon.
For example, let's look at a Horned Casque with +69 armour, 9% increased armour, and 20% quality.
This Horned Casque has a base armour rating of 428. Then the +69 is added to get 497 armour. Then the 9% bonus raises it to 541, and finally +20% quality results in 650 armour.
Another example calculation
If you had a sword whose unmodified damage is 10-20, with the following modifiers:
50% increased physical damage on the weapon;
20% quality on the weapon;
5-10 added physical damage on the weapon;
passive skills granting 30% increased sword damage;
a skill that does 40% increased damage and 30% less damage;
the calculation would would look like this:
Base damage: 10-20
Stage 1, on-weapon modifiers: (10-20 + 5-10) x (1 + 0.5 + 0.2) = 25.5-51
Stage 2, all other modifiers: (25.5-51) x (1 + 0.3 + 0.4) x 0.7 = 30-61 From the mechanics thread.
so many things are unknown or quite deeply buried in sources outside the game, yet you still call my opinion flat out wrong.. Can you see now why I think you're an idiot?
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On November 30 2013 06:09 Markwerf wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 30 2013 06:00 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2013 05:47 Markwerf wrote:On November 30 2013 05:16 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On November 30 2013 05:02 Markwerf wrote:On November 30 2013 04:52 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On November 29 2013 20:14 HolydaKing wrote:
Hmm, the patch kind of changed my build I think. Going for the bow crit nodes doesn't seem worthwhile anymore for Cast on Crit Quill Rain builds, I feel. The Deadly Draw buff is more of a nerf (unless I underrate Crit multiplier; though that one should also be only for bow dmg?), since you now need one more (useless) node to get to it. Probably better off to just pick 15% crit nodes somewhere that apply to spells as well. All those nodes are for bows only of course; it probably is more efficient to head elsewhere to pick up nodes that work globally. On November 30 2013 00:09 Markwerf wrote:On November 29 2013 23:01 oneofthem wrote:
i guess if you've played d2 etc then the mechanics should be somewhat expected, considering this game is largely inspired by d2 and all. but as a fresh introduction to the genre it can be a bit overwhelming yes and no, I have played d2 but some things look similar to it but actually work just a tad different. Take for example increased critical strike multiplier. The way it works is like this, your basic critical strike multiplier is 150%. If you have have say 20% increased critical strike multiplier your critical strike damage will be 150 * 1.2 = 180%. In other words 10% of critical strike multiplier gives 15% increased critical strike damage. The latter way is how this is usually described in diablo games or other stuff and I don't see why it wasn't used here. I think it's just a source of confusion and probably a reason why many underrate critical strike multiplier nodes. It's not that the stuff is very complicated, it's just not all intuitive and you generally have to go to other sources to find out what it means which is less the case in diablo or other RPGs. Another example, 'increased' means it's a percentage while 'additional' (like in block chance) actually means percentage points. Not difficult but is it intuitive, I think just a little bolding of words (to indicate they are keywords) would have been nice. Another small thing is with gear, it took me a while to realize at first that most mods like increased energy shield are local modifiers only. I find it intuitive that if a shield says "20% increased armor" that would be over my entire armor not just what is provided by the shield. Again not difficult at all, just not the most intuitive. Small tooltips or things to make it more clear would have been easy. The assumption that mechanics should work a certain way when they don't is your problem. Stop assuming everything works exactly like every other game you've played and look at the actual numbers that are provided on the character sheet. Making bad assumptions when everything in the game is well documented is why I called your opinion wrong. stop being an ass. The thing is everything is NOT well documented, there is tons of stuff you can't find or the stuff you find is mostly wrong and you have to get it from unofficial sources. Anyway I'm not saying this is a big issue, it was just a minor annoyance for me and I know many others agree on this point. Why does some idiot always have to respond with basically some sort of 'it's fine just learn 2 play n00b' type of comment.. It mostly stems from the fact that everything is actually documented pretty well. The fact that you mentioned that you find wrong information on third party sites is what pisses me off the most. Why are you looking at third party sites when everything is documented on the official website. Like I could link you to the mechanics thread and answer all your questions so far. It is literally that simple and easy. right ok link me the official sources for what prefixes and suffixes a wand can roll. Also link me the workings or probabilities for chromatic orbs, orb of fusings etc. also link if cold damage bonusses, spell damage bonusses and elemental damage bonusses work additively or multiplicatively. No game tells you exactly what prefixes and suffixes can roll on an item. Does Blizzard tell you what the maximum attribute rolls are on items in Diablo 3? No it doesn't. You can easily figure this out however by searching an indexer for say maximum life on a helmet and discover that none of them have more than 99. Your expectations are unrealistic. The probabilities are also unreleased, although there are quite a number of studies on the official forums where people have accumulated data to determine them. Sadly the good resource for this became useless when the values were changed with the addition of quality affecting chance. Show nested quote +In general, integer modifiers are applied before percentages. Percentage modifiers using the words "% increased" or "% reduced" stack additively with one another, while "% more" and "% less" modifiers stack multiplicatively.
When dealing with weapons, some modifiers that are listed on the weapon itself are applied first, before mods from other pieces of equipment, skills, and so on. This includes anything affecting physical damage, such as increased physical damage, added physical damage, quality etc., and also attack speed, critical strike chance, and accuracy. It does not include elemental damage mods. These can be called local modifiers - any modifier marked as "global," such as %increased Global Critical Strike Modifier, is not applied to the weapon first.
Similarly, when dealing with armour, evasion, and energy shield on armour, any modifiers affecting those stats that are listed on the piece of armour are applied first. This includes quality and any other mods directly affecting armour, evasion, or energy shield amount. It does not include mods affecting the energy shield recharge delay or regeneration rate, only the amount of energy shield.
Imagine I have 100 life, and two passive skills that each increase total life by 15%. The total bonus will be 30%, resulting in 130 life. Now imagine I am wearing boots that give +40 life, and have a passive skill that grants +20 life. The integer bonuses are applied first, giving me 160 life, then the percentage bonuses are applied to that subtotal, for a final total of 208 life.
Quality behaves differently on armour and flasks than on weapons. On armour and flasks, it stacks multiplicatively with other modifiers on that piece of equipment. Quality on weapons stacks additively with other % modifiers on the weapon.
For example, let's look at a Horned Casque with +69 armour, 9% increased armour, and 20% quality.
This Horned Casque has a base armour rating of 428. Then the +69 is added to get 497 armour. Then the 9% bonus raises it to 541, and finally +20% quality results in 650 armour.
Another example calculation
If you had a sword whose unmodified damage is 10-20, with the following modifiers:
50% increased physical damage on the weapon;
20% quality on the weapon;
5-10 added physical damage on the weapon;
passive skills granting 30% increased sword damage;
a skill that does 40% increased damage and 30% less damage;
the calculation would would look like this:
Base damage: 10-20
Stage 1, on-weapon modifiers: (10-20 + 5-10) x (1 + 0.5 + 0.2) = 25.5-51
Stage 2, all other modifiers: (25.5-51) x (1 + 0.3 + 0.4) x 0.7 = 30-61 From the mechanics thread. so many things are unknown or quite deeply buried in sources outside the game, yet you still call my opinion flat out wrong.. Can you see now why I think you're an idiot?
I'm curious what game you've played that every tidbit of information you could possibly want to know about the engine is available inside the game. If you think I'm an idiot because you can't find information or don't realize that all information isn't freely given about every detail of the engine then I will be an idiot. Your opinion is wrong.
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On November 30 2013 06:15 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2013 06:09 Markwerf wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 30 2013 06:00 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2013 05:47 Markwerf wrote:On November 30 2013 05:16 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On November 30 2013 05:02 Markwerf wrote:On November 30 2013 04:52 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On November 29 2013 20:14 HolydaKing wrote:
Hmm, the patch kind of changed my build I think. Going for the bow crit nodes doesn't seem worthwhile anymore for Cast on Crit Quill Rain builds, I feel. The Deadly Draw buff is more of a nerf (unless I underrate Crit multiplier; though that one should also be only for bow dmg?), since you now need one more (useless) node to get to it. Probably better off to just pick 15% crit nodes somewhere that apply to spells as well. All those nodes are for bows only of course; it probably is more efficient to head elsewhere to pick up nodes that work globally. On November 30 2013 00:09 Markwerf wrote:On November 29 2013 23:01 oneofthem wrote:
i guess if you've played d2 etc then the mechanics should be somewhat expected, considering this game is largely inspired by d2 and all. but as a fresh introduction to the genre it can be a bit overwhelming yes and no, I have played d2 but some things look similar to it but actually work just a tad different. Take for example increased critical strike multiplier. The way it works is like this, your basic critical strike multiplier is 150%. If you have have say 20% increased critical strike multiplier your critical strike damage will be 150 * 1.2 = 180%. In other words 10% of critical strike multiplier gives 15% increased critical strike damage. The latter way is how this is usually described in diablo games or other stuff and I don't see why it wasn't used here. I think it's just a source of confusion and probably a reason why many underrate critical strike multiplier nodes. It's not that the stuff is very complicated, it's just not all intuitive and you generally have to go to other sources to find out what it means which is less the case in diablo or other RPGs. Another example, 'increased' means it's a percentage while 'additional' (like in block chance) actually means percentage points. Not difficult but is it intuitive, I think just a little bolding of words (to indicate they are keywords) would have been nice. Another small thing is with gear, it took me a while to realize at first that most mods like increased energy shield are local modifiers only. I find it intuitive that if a shield says "20% increased armor" that would be over my entire armor not just what is provided by the shield. Again not difficult at all, just not the most intuitive. Small tooltips or things to make it more clear would have been easy. The assumption that mechanics should work a certain way when they don't is your problem. Stop assuming everything works exactly like every other game you've played and look at the actual numbers that are provided on the character sheet. Making bad assumptions when everything in the game is well documented is why I called your opinion wrong. stop being an ass. The thing is everything is NOT well documented, there is tons of stuff you can't find or the stuff you find is mostly wrong and you have to get it from unofficial sources. Anyway I'm not saying this is a big issue, it was just a minor annoyance for me and I know many others agree on this point. Why does some idiot always have to respond with basically some sort of 'it's fine just learn 2 play n00b' type of comment.. It mostly stems from the fact that everything is actually documented pretty well. The fact that you mentioned that you find wrong information on third party sites is what pisses me off the most. Why are you looking at third party sites when everything is documented on the official website. Like I could link you to the mechanics thread and answer all your questions so far. It is literally that simple and easy. right ok link me the official sources for what prefixes and suffixes a wand can roll. Also link me the workings or probabilities for chromatic orbs, orb of fusings etc. also link if cold damage bonusses, spell damage bonusses and elemental damage bonusses work additively or multiplicatively. No game tells you exactly what prefixes and suffixes can roll on an item. Does Blizzard tell you what the maximum attribute rolls are on items in Diablo 3? No it doesn't. You can easily figure this out however by searching an indexer for say maximum life on a helmet and discover that none of them have more than 99. Your expectations are unrealistic. The probabilities are also unreleased, although there are quite a number of studies on the official forums where people have accumulated data to determine them. Sadly the good resource for this became useless when the values were changed with the addition of quality affecting chance. Show nested quote +In general, integer modifiers are applied before percentages. Percentage modifiers using the words "% increased" or "% reduced" stack additively with one another, while "% more" and "% less" modifiers stack multiplicatively.
When dealing with weapons, some modifiers that are listed on the weapon itself are applied first, before mods from other pieces of equipment, skills, and so on. This includes anything affecting physical damage, such as increased physical damage, added physical damage, quality etc., and also attack speed, critical strike chance, and accuracy. It does not include elemental damage mods. These can be called local modifiers - any modifier marked as "global," such as %increased Global Critical Strike Modifier, is not applied to the weapon first.
Similarly, when dealing with armour, evasion, and energy shield on armour, any modifiers affecting those stats that are listed on the piece of armour are applied first. This includes quality and any other mods directly affecting armour, evasion, or energy shield amount. It does not include mods affecting the energy shield recharge delay or regeneration rate, only the amount of energy shield.
Imagine I have 100 life, and two passive skills that each increase total life by 15%. The total bonus will be 30%, resulting in 130 life. Now imagine I am wearing boots that give +40 life, and have a passive skill that grants +20 life. The integer bonuses are applied first, giving me 160 life, then the percentage bonuses are applied to that subtotal, for a final total of 208 life.
Quality behaves differently on armour and flasks than on weapons. On armour and flasks, it stacks multiplicatively with other modifiers on that piece of equipment. Quality on weapons stacks additively with other % modifiers on the weapon.
For example, let's look at a Horned Casque with +69 armour, 9% increased armour, and 20% quality.
This Horned Casque has a base armour rating of 428. Then the +69 is added to get 497 armour. Then the 9% bonus raises it to 541, and finally +20% quality results in 650 armour.
Another example calculation
If you had a sword whose unmodified damage is 10-20, with the following modifiers:
50% increased physical damage on the weapon;
20% quality on the weapon;
5-10 added physical damage on the weapon;
passive skills granting 30% increased sword damage;
a skill that does 40% increased damage and 30% less damage;
the calculation would would look like this:
Base damage: 10-20
Stage 1, on-weapon modifiers: (10-20 + 5-10) x (1 + 0.5 + 0.2) = 25.5-51
Stage 2, all other modifiers: (25.5-51) x (1 + 0.3 + 0.4) x 0.7 = 30-61 From the mechanics thread. so many things are unknown or quite deeply buried in sources outside the game, yet you still call my opinion flat out wrong.. Can you see now why I think you're an idiot? I'm curious what game you've played that every tidbit of information you could possibly want to know about the engine is available inside the game. If you think I'm an idiot because you can't find information or don't realize that all information isn't freely given about every detail of the engine then I will be an idiot. Your opinion is wrong.
ugh what a stubborn moron you are. I just voiced my opinion about things I didn't like, one of them being vagueness of mechanics and the like for which you attacked me. Subsequently you even admit plenty of stuff can't be found yet you still attack me. Can't be arsed to deal with you, just let others have their opinion and disagree with it if you like but don't attack them on matters of opinion for things which are not just wrong. Like I said it's a minor point but in general I, like many others, find the game needlessly vague. I love complexity but you can achieve that by great design with simple rules or by just having a lot of fluff, in my opinion poe has a bit too much of the latter.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
the new maps are so huge, at least the ones that previously had labyrinthine as mandatory rolls.
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Hmmm, i wonder if 20 free quant on my mazed maps I have is worth it or if I should just reroll them.
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On November 30 2013 06:44 Sn0_Man wrote:
Hmmm, i wonder if 20 free quant on my mazed maps I have is worth it or if I should just reroll them.
Isn't 20% higher than any prefix that can roll on the map? That wasn't well thought out by GGG ^_^
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Well, it shouldn't really matter too much but yeah I didn't think about that.
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I somehow missed the ignite status change from the patch note.
Eee my Avatar of Fire crit staff templar 
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Ur probably fine tbh. If your tree or items include a decent amount of fire damage nodes its possible ur burning damage went up.
Link tree?
E: reading a version of your tree you linked a while back, I believe your burning damage will in fact go up slightly as you have about 70% increased fire damage which now applies to your burn damage.
If lava lash applies to the DoT which I think it doesn't, then your damage would go up more but as I said I don't think it does.
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Here it is Click me :D
I made a few changes along the way though, mainly because Hatred needs quite a lot of Dex, endurance charges are awesome and living feels way better than kill stuff and then die, so a few more life nodes, res and armor, so almost no increase fire/ele dmg node for now
So the main thing I aim for now is high crit multi = burn moar. With the aiming 300% in 4 more points, I would burn to around 100% of a hit per sec, down from 133%. Which is hardly noticible really, since I played some after the patch and didn't realize anything at all until I reread the patch note.
+ Show Spoiler +Also I'll show you my new shiny staff the next time we're ingame 
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Vatican City State2902 Posts
On November 30 2013 05:59 Pwere wrote:
Nocticate, you haven't seen Spectral Throw yet.
That thing is so OP, it's ridiculously funny.
The other one I've gotten to this point in nemesis was a ST scion that was transitioning into EK. ST gets kinda old for me. The bounciness that Leap Strike offers is just too fun.
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EPT
