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Civi4 succession games are back on TL! Ever since civi5 has came, it has been quite disappointing to see no other games have taken place (for 4 OR 5), so I figure why not (re)start a community series to have a little fun nuking monty, taking arab lands, and overall just being the badasses of the civi world. And remember - These games are not only to be full of fun and laughs - but educational as well to those trying to learn new tricks in your own civilization games.
FAQ+ Show Spoiler +
Q: So, how does it work?
A: After someone plays for a period of 40 turns, that person will save the game and send it to the next person in the list to play his round. Once you have saved the game and sent it to the next person in the list, you are STRONGLY encouraged to post what you did and why and anything notable to alert to other players (IE Monty decides to wage war, kubli kan goes after china, w/e)
Q: How many total players can play in one game?
A: Based on previous succession games and noting how they went, ill be putting a cap on this one for 12. If there is a large enough surplus, we might even have 2 teams of 12 both with the same game to see who does better.
Q: How long do I have to respond once I receive the last save of the game?
A: You have 48 hours to reply via thread you have the game and when you will be playing it next. If you dont respond in that time, then you are skipped and the next person goes instead. If you're skipped 3 consecutive times, then you'll be dropped from the list.
Q: What version of civilization will we be using?
A: We shall be using the beyond the sword expansion with the latest official patch. (3.19 I believe)
Q: What do I do when Im totally lost?
A: Well, ask us! The point of this succession game is so that everyone has fun and learns some new tricks! There is no harm in asking what to do in-thread.
For those of you interested, please reply in the thread and ill be sure to add you!
Also; once you've signed up, be sure to vote in the following polls so I know how to set the game up.
+ Show Spoiler +Poll: Random EventsOff (recommended) (8) 67% On (4) 33% 12 total votes Your vote: Random Events (Vote): On
(Vote): Off (recommended)
Poll: Goody hutsOff (7) 64% On (4) 36% 11 total votes Your vote: Goody huts (Vote): On
(Vote): Off
Poll: MapFractal (Recommended) (9) 69% Continents (2) 15% Pangea (1) 8% Archipelago (1) 8% Other (0) 0% 13 total votes Your vote: Map (Vote): Pangea
(Vote): Fractal (Recommended)
(Vote): Archipelago
(Vote): Continents
(Vote): Other
Poll: Game SpeedEpic (8) 62% Marathan (3) 23% Normal (2) 15% 13 total votes Your vote: Game Speed (Vote): Marathan
(Vote): Epic
(Vote): Normal
Poll: DifficultyMonarch (8) 53% Deity (3) 20% Immortal (2) 13% Emperor (2) 13% 15 total votes Your vote: Difficulty (Vote): Deity
(Vote): Immortal
(Vote): Emperor
(Vote): Monarch
Oh, and for those who dont have it yet, be sure to try out the AI Bug mod. It is a major help for any civi user and comes in handy plenty of times.
The Contenders (click to PM);
1)Energizer
2)Rednaxela_19
3)zulu_nation8
4) prOxi.Beater
5)NIJ
6)Qatol
7) Punkstar
Game links;
Initial opening - 4000 B.C.
3000 B.C.
2025 B.C.
1475 B.C.
500 B.C.
200 B.C.
950 A.D.
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Lost my Civ 4 disks  otherwise I would play.
Been playing Civ5 though.
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I'd really be interested in this, but I think i need more practice first. As a Noble/Prince player, I'll be watching out for this.
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I forgot everything I knew :D. Used to play up to emperor. I'll maybe make up my mind and join later.
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Played a lot of civ4, but I have moved on to civ5 despite its flaws. Any chance we can do this on civ5 instead?
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On May 26 2011 02:43 Casta wrote:
Played a lot of civ4, but I have moved on to civ5 despite its flaws. Any chance we can do this on civ5 instead?
Moved past civ5 because of its flaws so I'm back to civ4.
But hey, if you want to do a civ5 succession game, feel free to set one up 
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On May 26 2011 03:23 Energizer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 02:43 Casta wrote:
Played a lot of civ4, but I have moved on to civ5 despite its flaws. Any chance we can do this on civ5 instead? Moved past civ5 because of its flaws so I'm back to civ4. But hey, if you want to do a civ5 succession game, feel free to set one up
HAHA! You just answered the PM I sent you right now. I'll set one up, if you don't mind Energizer.
I'm also stealing your FAQ spoiler too, ok?
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On May 26 2011 02:43 Casta wrote:
Played a lot of civ4, but I have moved on to civ5 despite its flaws. Any chance we can do this on civ5 instead?
Oh, oh! Start one! That way we can play, too!
I don't have my Civ4 CD anymore. ]:
Best of luck to you folks, though!
+ Show Spoiler +viking/sweden/norway is imba
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On May 26 2011 04:45 State wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 02:43 Casta wrote:
Played a lot of civ4, but I have moved on to civ5 despite its flaws. Any chance we can do this on civ5 instead? Oh, oh! Start one! That way we can play, too! I don't have my Civ4 CD anymore. ]: Best of luck to you folks, though! + Show Spoiler +viking/sweden/norway is imba
No worries, mate. I'm setting one up as we speak.
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I have never played a Civ series but I'm always curious about it.
What was wrong with Civ 5?
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On May 26 2011 05:01 Torte de Lini wrote:
I have never played a Civ series but I'm always curious about it.
What was wrong with Civ 5?
Civ5 did some things better, (mainly no stacks of death, so military strategy actually means something), but LOTS of things farrrr worse than its predecessor. Overall Civ5 is simplified, with fewer options, non city-specific happiness, doing away entirely with religion, health, etc.
Civ4 is a deeper game, but goddamn if I don't prefer the army tactics from civ5.
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Kinda in the same boat as some of the posters in here, haven't played 4 in a while, and been having fun with 5 quite a bit. My next step on that is starting to be consistent on Emperor/Continent/Standard map. The AI research bonuses reaaaaaaaaaaaaaally start to kick your ass and you can't really trade techs with weaker guys to catch up. One game I had almost an entire continent and a guy on a slightly smaller continent started rolling planes and tanks on my Cavalry. Felt like I was the AI in a Chieftain game hehe.
So if I want to join on this, I have to get Civ 4+ expansions +some bug patch?
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On May 26 2011 05:06 Haemonculus wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 05:01 Torte de Lini wrote:
I have never played a Civ series but I'm always curious about it.
What was wrong with Civ 5? Civ5 did some things better, (mainly no stacks of death, so military strategy actually means something), but LOTS of things farrrr worse than its predecessor. Overall Civ5 is simplified, with fewer options, non city-specific happiness, doing away entirely with religion, health, etc. Civ4 is a deeper game, but goddamn if I don't prefer the army tactics from civ5.
I hear there is no way to save a multiplayer game. So if you want to play one game for hours on end since there's no way of taking a break or stopping
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On May 26 2011 05:06 Haemonculus wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 05:01 Torte de Lini wrote:
I have never played a Civ series but I'm always curious about it.
What was wrong with Civ 5? Civ5 did some things better, (mainly no stacks of death, so military strategy actually means something), but LOTS of things farrrr worse than its predecessor. Overall Civ5 is simplified, with fewer options, non city-specific happiness, doing away entirely with religion, health, etc. Civ4 is a deeper game, but goddamn if I don't prefer the army tactics from civ5.
Basically this. If you are into deep strategy and having a variety of options at your fingertips, then civilization 4 is for you. But if you just want a simple "build cities and attack", civ 5 is kinda for you, although with much inferior AI and not nearly as complicated.
Though honestly if u were just into managing your army and cities, why not get shogun2?  To me that's the direction they were trying to go for with civi5.
On May 26 2011 05:06 Furycrab wrote:
So if I want to join on this, I have to get Civ 4+ expansions +some bug patch?
the bug AI mod is optional, dont necessarily need it but it helps. But yes you would need civ 4 and the beyond the sword expansion along with its official patch.
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I will totally play! never got 5 because i wasnt interested.
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Haha ok maybe not "deep tactics" but at least holding good positions or chokes was useful. In Civ4 I can hold all the mountains/fortified terrain in a certain pass, and his entire army can pass through a crack.
Like think of 300. How those cool ass spartans held off thousands of baddies because they were all elite and stuff and held a very defensible position. Now imagine that all the Persians have noclip mode on. That's civ4 vs civ5
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Sweet! I haven't played Civ 4 in a while, but I love reading the succession game threads.
Hmm... I may have to give Civ 5 another go. I got it at release and didn't like it (loved Civ 4) but I know they've made some changes since, so I should probably give it another chance.
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Awesome, zulu and naxela are both in, and im hoping h3r1n6 will change his mind in the next couple of days
anyone else interested?
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Looking forward to this though I havent played civ4 in a while. I've been a long time lurker on civfanatics and have followed most of the lower level series from NC to Monarchist Cookbook. I'm interested to see what kind of economies good players run.
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On May 26 2011 05:14 Energizer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 05:06 Haemonculus wrote:On May 26 2011 05:01 Torte de Lini wrote:
I have never played a Civ series but I'm always curious about it.
What was wrong with Civ 5? Civ5 did some things better, (mainly no stacks of death, so military strategy actually means something), but LOTS of things farrrr worse than its predecessor. Overall Civ5 is simplified, with fewer options, non city-specific happiness, doing away entirely with religion, health, etc. Civ4 is a deeper game, but goddamn if I don't prefer the army tactics from civ5. Basically this. If you are into deep strategy and having a variety of options at your fingertips, then civilization 4 is for you. But if you just want a simple "build cities and attack", civ 5 is kinda for you, although with much inferior AI and not nearly as complicated. Though honestly if u were just into managing your army and cities, why not get shogun2? To me that's the direction they were trying to go for with civi5. Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 05:06 Furycrab wrote:
So if I want to join on this, I have to get Civ 4+ expansions +some bug patch? the bug AI mod is optional, dont necessarily need it but it helps. But yes you would need civ 4 and the beyond the sword expansion along with its official patch.
I'm curious as to how you think the AI is better in 4 than 5. 5 isn't perfect, but I could find loopholes in 4 and to me the AI seems to play to win a whole lot more in 5 than it did in 4.
However playing to win also means the AI on higher difficulties will jump on you, sometimes 2 to 1, just because you expanded aggressively or you happen to be a neighbor.
The combat though... is just soooooooooooooo much more satisfying. I don't think I would have want to go back to squares, stacks and transports ever again.
Btw don't take this as hate, I'm still looking forward to the reports, I still find it was a great game... but saying that Civ 5 is about building big armies and fighting... when you can win with just 3-4 cities... easily?
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Count me in. Been a while since I've played a proper game of civ4.
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Cool I was wondering if succession games will ever come back.
I'm up for game.
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Ill probably setup the game later tonight with all the fixings to start things off then play the first round tomorrow. Ill probably pick a leader for this go around - a bloodthirsty warmonger perhaps? Someone who knows a thing or two about divine wars! Hmm... Oh yes indeedy, I know just the person to kick off this series! Someone who can really keep those other civis in line like dogs.
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In history - There has only been one man who could stand 40 feet tall and level mountains. The man who swung an axe larger then the state of Rhode Island and had an Ox as a pet...
"But Energizer, Your talking about Paul Bunyan!"
Blasphemy! Those are words spoken only by whose who have never stood in amazement of the most ingenious, diabolical and at times - ruthless person to rule a county.
That man is none other than -
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/bTKAQ.jpg)
Asoka!
Oh what? you think that just because Asoka is the leader of the only country whose UU cant attack he cant be ruthless?
The Start;
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/7Xbyf.jpg)
Corn for early growth, gold for early tech, and wine for some mid-game happiness. I would prefer some more food resources but I guess this will have to do. Kind of tempted to move the settler 1S to gain the benefits of a +1 production and opening up the floodplains for a bit more food unless of course I scout like, 3 herds of cows in the north (which I doubt, the map generator has never been forgiving).
As far as tech path is concerned, Id like to get everyone's input on this. Obviously agriculture is the first tech to get the corn, followed up by probably BW, then from there...what exactly? try to gun for an early monarchy via oracle? (might be possible, got enough trees to chop for it and we have mysticism to start and of course - GOLD) or just get more econ techs based what we scout?
As for the capital - tempted to move it in the future due to lacking of food and commerce. Though I can see it as a great military city.
And the game is set on emperor/Epic speed - Will post save tomorrow after my 40 turns (both the initial save and the after).
edit : Never to late to hop on if u are even the slightest interested!
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pic is kinda small for me to be accurate but if im seeing it correctly, theres probably good chance at something 3S (plain).which you can grab if you move 1S. Taking bets on strategic resource anyone? While 3 tiles north fogged are all forests = no significant resource. SIP kills FP, but settling on forested PH kills what little hill tiles you already have.
Man, I guess SIP. unless warrior moving drastically changes the scenario. It's actually a decent start though.
edit: hmmm moving your settler 2S to settle is another possibility. He can get there on turn 0 using corn tile. gold and corn is still in inner ring, and you still have access to fresh water, so its not a bad move. Warrior busting the fog down there is becoming really crucial. Hopefully you see something cool.
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Looks like a decent bureau capital, plains/river tiles for cottages, gold, nice production, food is lacking. I'd move the warrior southwest before making a decision on the location. There seems to be a plains hill to northwest that we'll lose if we move our settler south. Doesn't Asoka start with Agriculture? If so then BW would be the most logical choice imo. I don't play on emperor so not sure if Stonehenge is worth getting.
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Count me in too.
I don't like SIP in this position. 1N looks like a much better spot. The extra commerce from the river wine is quite strong early and you pick up an extra flood plain to help with potential food problems. While the corn and the gold are out of the inner ring, you will get a border pop before the worker comes out, and the FP is a better square to work at the beginning than the corn or gold anyways.
Settling south is probably worse than 1N. It looks like there is a resource 1N2W (copper? more food?) that we would lose by moving south plus most of the land to the south looks brown, so it won't be particularly productive unless we get a lucky food resource down there (we don't know for sure that 3S is a resource; it is outside of our forest-spammed BFC and random gaps in forests can happen without a resource). And even if we do get a food resource, the city would probably just turn into a GP farm until workshops and watermills become viable improvements.
Stonehenge is a waste. We have better things to do with our hammers early (fogbusters/ expansion). I think the only wonder we should really consider in this position is oracle. We aren't on the coast for GLH, we aren't Philosophical or Industrious + the land doesn't look particularly fertile for Mids, we aren't Industrious for Artemis, and I don't think spy economy is a good idea + we have no need for the Wall otherwise (fogbusting will take care of barbs just fine). I think it is better to just gun for an aesthetics/literature wonder and bypass the early wonders altogether. Also this will provide us with some flexibility to potentially rush an AI if one is crowding us. Of course this is subject to change if that resource 1N2W happens to be stone or marble, of course.
As far as tech path goes, I agree that AG should be first. If 1N2W is a husbandry resource, AH should be next. Otherwise, BW. After that, a lot depends on where you settle and the resources you see in the surrounding area. Just don't forget to get either axes, chariots, or archers to defend against barbs.
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On May 27 2011 14:28 Qatol wrote:
I don't like SIP in this position. 1N looks like a much better spot.
By far...
We begin our tale of the mighty Asoka. To solve our dilema of where to settle first, we first blindfolded our warrior, spun him around a bunch of times and told him to move forward when we stopped him. Apparently, it was utterly useless as he didn't find anything useful so we snickered as we went the other way settling on the *hic* wine, and we never looked back.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/q2rnl.jpg)
Oh ho! 2 gold mines and 2 corn fields, things are indeed looking up!
Unfortunately for combat ex, the warrior, we completely forgot about him and he kept going south. We tried to holler at him to come back but uh... well there are more important things to do in the TL capital.
Surprisingly enough, he did make himself useful by finding another slave civi.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/SEhcF.jpg)
This is great for two reaons; 1) we can get an early religion without researching it because Isabella is indeed a saint. 2) shes real easy to pick off in a war or backstab later (I mean, come on, if we're part of her religion, theres no way she could consider us attacking her right?)
and I was right!
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/WPO3M.jpg)
Now we dont have to worry about any other early religion because hey, what are the flippin odds that we will run into another civi that got hindi?
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ycogM.jpg)
Apparently, rather good. Well, I guess we're gunna have to figure who to side with later to see if we can get those two dogs attacking each other. But thats for someone else to deal with.
Finally, bronze finished. With both corn fields hooked up I was certain we could start whipping axemen to charge valiantly to conquer the spanish insects!
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/K5Ojz.jpg)
Well... not yet anyway. Might be some to the east but sadly, combet ex never learned to scout correctly and is still continuing south, now stuck at a bunch of unobtainable gems...
And that is where we are left off at.
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What is the pop of Delhi? (I don't have access to civ right now, but should by my turn.) We should really grow much closer to the happy cap before we make a worker. Besides, we need more warriors out there scouting for us. And from the tech rate it doesn't look like we are working the gold yet.
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On May 28 2011 05:38 Qatol wrote:
What is the pop of Delhi? (I don't have access to civ right now, but should by my turn.) We should really grow much closer to the happy cap before we make a worker. Besides, we need more warriors out there scouting for us. And from the tech rate it doesn't look like we are working the gold yet.
Pop is 2 and making a settler (about halfway done). Now why did I not grow the city till it had a pop of 4 or more? Because thats ludicrous. It stalls the time it takes for a worker to get out which means more time it takes for the gold and corn to get developed and even more time until we get our second city and start expanding our borders. Its pointless to grow a city unless you actually have stuff the workers in the city can work on. Its called fast expanding.
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On May 28 2011 09:09 Energizer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 05:38 Qatol wrote:
What is the pop of Delhi? (I don't have access to civ right now, but should by my turn.) We should really grow much closer to the happy cap before we make a worker. Besides, we need more warriors out there scouting for us. And from the tech rate it doesn't look like we are working the gold yet. Pop is 2 and making a settler (about halfway done). Now why did I not grow the city till it had a pop of 4 or more? Because thats ludicrous. It stalls the time it takes for a worker to get out which means more time it takes for the gold and corn to get developed and even more time until we get our second city and start expanding our borders. Its pointless to grow a city unless you actually have stuff the workers in the city can work on. Its called fast expanding.
Worker first is standard and I wasn't suggesting deviating from that. It has been proven over on civfanatics that worker first is better than anything other than occasionally warrior or workboat for coastal starts.
What I'm confused about is why you didn't grow the city more after getting the worker but before getting a settler. While it's bad to work undeveloped tiles, if you do your worker micro properly, you should not be spending much time doing so. And if you are really having that much trouble with working undeveloped tiles, why not chop out a second worker?
Because you did spend some time growing the city to pop 2, what did you produce during that time? Is there a warrior sitting in the city or something?
There are several problems with a settler this quickly:
1. Scouting. Because you got a settler instead of extra workers, we have no idea what good city spots are nearby. It doesn't make much sense to make a settler when you don't even know where he will go.
2. Protection. There are at least 3 categories of this:
a. Protecting the new settler/city. It is still early. There are still a considerable number of animals out and about. If we send the settler out now unescorted, there are decent odds that it will be eaten by a random animal even if we are careful with it. Now assuming there is a warrior sitting in Delhi right now, we could use it to escort our settler, but then we run into another problem:
b. Protecting our original city. If we send our settler out with the warrior, we have nothing to protect our original city. This may not be as bad of a problem as what I am used to however. I'm used to barbarians entering borders relatively soon, but that is on different settings. However, if this is the case, we want the warrior moving now because the settler is faster than the warrior.
c. Fogbusting. Because we used our early hammers on a settler, we don't have anything keeping barbarians from spawning near our lands and barbarian cities from taking the good spots near us. From your exploration, I wouldn't be surprised if we are in the north, near the tundra. If this is the case, our barbarian problems will be pretty bad (because the AIs won't be settling up there early, so there is nothing stopping barbarians from spawning).
3. Workers. While you are avoiding time working unimproved tiles on Delhi a bit by making this settler, we don't have a worker available to improve our new city! If you send our worker off to improve that city, then we don't have a worker available to improve Delhi any more. If we make another worker to fix this problem, one of our cities isn't growing, which reduces our hammers and growth.
4. Tech rate. If I'm not mistaken, we don't have the wheel yet. (We shouldn't because it looks like you're working on AH and if we don't find horses, we need to beeline archery before going for something like the wheel). Because of this, a second city will not be connected to the capital via road, and thus will hurt our tech rate (via upkeep) until it starts working commerce squares or we connect it to the capital. Additionally, we haven't explored to the east. This means we haven't found any AIs which might be in that direction, which means we don't get research bonuses for the basic techs that they already possess. And of course we aren't working the gold squares right now, which is reducing our tech rate by over half by itself.
That being said, we can still salvage the situation. I recommend that whoever plays their turnset next switch to warriors for a bit and grow to 4 pop before continuing the settler. If there is a warrior in the capital, use it to scout east. Hopefully we will find horses or copper nearby. If that is the case, research the wheel and expand next to that spot. Otherwise, get archery and then the wheel. After the settler we are going to need a second worker and then more fogbusters/scouts. Chop them out if you need to. However, do NOT whip the capital unless we wind up racing an AI to an amazing spot. We don't need to cut our production of settlers/workers right now to get one settler a little faster otherwise.
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On May 28 2011 09:43 Qatol wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 09:09 Energizer wrote:On May 28 2011 05:38 Qatol wrote:
What is the pop of Delhi? (I don't have access to civ right now, but should by my turn.) We should really grow much closer to the happy cap before we make a worker. Besides, we need more warriors out there scouting for us. And from the tech rate it doesn't look like we are working the gold yet. Pop is 2 and making a settler (about halfway done). Now why did I not grow the city till it had a pop of 4 or more? Because thats ludicrous. It stalls the time it takes for a worker to get out which means more time it takes for the gold and corn to get developed and even more time until we get our second city and start expanding our borders. Its pointless to grow a city unless you actually have stuff the workers in the city can work on. Its called fast expanding. Worker first is standard and I wasn't suggesting deviating from that. It has been proven over on civfanatics that worker first is better than anything other than occasionally warrior or workboat for coastal starts. What I'm confused about is why you didn't grow the city more after getting the worker but before getting a settler. While it's bad to work undeveloped tiles, if you do your worker micro properly, you should not be spending much time doing so. And if you are really having that much trouble with working undeveloped tiles, why not chop out a second worker? Because you did spend some time growing the city to pop 2, what did you produce during that time? Is there a warrior sitting in the city or something? There are several problems with a settler this quickly: 1. Scouting. Because you got a settler instead of extra workers, we have no idea what good city spots are nearby. It doesn't make much sense to make a settler when you don't even know where he will go. 2. Protection. There are at least 3 categories of this: a. Protecting the new settler/city. It is still early. There are still a considerable number of animals out and about. If we send the settler out now unescorted, there are decent odds that it will be eaten by a random animal even if we are careful with it. Now assuming there is a warrior sitting in Delhi right now, we could use it to escort our settler, but then we run into another problem: b. Protecting our original city. If we send our settler out with the warrior, we have nothing to protect our original city. This may not be as bad of a problem as what I am used to however. I'm used to barbarians entering borders relatively soon, but that is on different settings. However, if this is the case, we want the warrior moving now because the settler is faster than the warrior. c. Fogbusting. Because we used our early hammers on a settler, we don't have anything keeping barbarians from spawning near our lands and barbarian cities from taking the good spots near us. From your exploration, I wouldn't be surprised if we are in the north, near the tundra. If this is the case, our barbarian problems will be pretty bad (because the AIs won't be settling up there early, so there is nothing stopping barbarians from spawning). 3. Workers. While you are avoiding time working unimproved tiles on Delhi a bit by making this settler, we don't have a worker available to improve our new city! If you send our worker off to improve that city, then we don't have a worker available to improve Delhi any more. If we make another worker to fix this problem, one of our cities isn't growing, which reduces our hammers and growth. 4. Tech rate. If I'm not mistaken, we don't have the wheel yet. (We shouldn't because it looks like you're working on AH and if we don't find horses, we need to beeline archery before going for something like the wheel). Because of this, a second city will not be connected to the capital via road, and thus will hurt our tech rate (via upkeep) until it starts working commerce squares or we connect it to the capital. Additionally, we haven't explored to the east. This means we haven't found any AIs which might be in that direction, which means we don't get research bonuses for the basic techs that they already possess. And of course we aren't working the gold squares right now, which is reducing our tech rate by over half by itself.
That being said, we can still salvage the situation. I recommend that whoever plays their turnset next switch to warriors for a bit and grow to 4 pop before continuing the settler. If there is a warrior in the capital, use it to scout east. Hopefully we will find horses or copper nearby. If that is the case, research the wheel and expand next to that spot. Otherwise, get archery and then the wheel. After the settler we are going to need a second worker and then more fogbusters/scouts. Chop them out if you need to. However, do NOT whip the capital unless we wind up racing an AI to an amazing spot. We don't need to cut our production of settlers/workers right now to get one settler a little faster otherwise.
Um, no. The settler is already half way done and we are competing with 2 other civis for land grabs, we're not trying to do a OCC here. Moreover, if there is copper to the east or horses, then we need to get it hooked up asap for a possible rush (more then that, if we get either copper or horses then we dont NEED archery because we can rely on war chariots or axemen for D). And what will a warrior do RIGHT NOW? Nothing. Barbs dont appear in the game until the barb equation is met on cities (total civis on a continent * 2 cities = total cities). Once every civi has at least 2 citys then we have to worry about barbs, and even then it will take another 30-40 turns or so before they enter the borders.
As for our tech rate. U need to stop worrying... seriously. our city will get to size 3 by no time which will allow us to work a gold mine increasing our tech rate considerably, and it wont take long for pop 4 to be reached.
As for tech path, well if we dont scout any strategic resources, might recommend bee lining for the oracle and getting either monarchy for the dual happiness bonus (our sentries across our cities and wine) or getting metal casting.
in regards to fogbusting, we dont need to worry about it this early in the game, we can more or less rely a bit more on the computer to deal with it while we work on our infrastructure a bit more (preferably by our 3erd city we start sending out stuff to fog bust in certain areas).
Anyways, red has been skipped for failing to comply with the 24 hour rule, and its now up to zulu to pick it up
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On May 28 2011 05:38 Qatol wrote:
What is the pop of Delhi? (I don't have access to civ right now, but should by my turn.) We should really grow much closer to the happy cap before we make a worker. Besides, we need more warriors out there scouting for us. And from the tech rate it doesn't look like we are working the gold yet.
There are several problems with a settler this quickly:
1. Scouting. Because you got a settler instead of extra workers, we have no idea what good city spots are nearby. It doesn't make much sense to make a settler when you don't even know where he will go.
[/quote]
Valid, but you can compensate with the 1.5x epic scouting bonus
2. Protection. There are at least 3 categories of this:
a. Protecting the new settler/city. It is still early. There are still a considerable number of animals out and about. If we send the settler out now unescorted, there are decent odds that it will be eaten by a random animal even if we are careful with it. Now assuming there is a warrior sitting in Delhi right now, we could use it to escort our settler, but then we run into another problem:
Valid but as long as your scouting warrior returns in time, it's fine.
b. Protecting our original city. If we send our settler out with the warrior, we have nothing to protect our original city. This may not be as bad of a problem as what I am used to however. I'm used to barbarians entering borders relatively soon, but that is on different settings. However, if this is the case, we want the warrior moving now because the settler is faster than the warrior.
Completely wrong and unnecessary.
c. Fogbusting. Because we used our early hammers on a settler, we don't have anything keeping barbarians from spawning near our lands and barbarian cities from taking the good spots near us. From your exploration, I wouldn't be surprised if we are in the north, near the tundra. If this is the case, our barbarian problems will be pretty bad (because the AIs won't be settling up there early, so there is nothing stopping barbarians from spawning).
Ironically a size 2 settler, particularly on emperor, will beat barb spawns.
3. Workers. While you are avoiding time working unimproved tiles on Delhi a bit by making this settler, we don't have a worker available to improve our new city! If you send our worker off to improve that city, then we don't have a worker available to improve Delhi any more. If we make another worker to fix this problem, one of our cities isn't growing, which reduces our hammers and growth.
Incorrect, while building a settler you will have time to improve 1 or 2 tiles more than your population. Once you are working your improved tiles, you can build another worker.
Put another way, would you rather delay working your second cities' free 2 food 1 hammer tile and the 1-2 special tiles, or would you rather delay a mine, which is only 1 better than a forested tile?
4. Tech rate. If I'm not mistaken, we don't have the wheel yet. (We shouldn't because it looks like you're working on AH and if we don't find horses, we need to beeline archery before going for something like the wheel). Because of this, a second city will not be connected to the capital via road, and thus will hurt our tech rate (via upkeep) until it starts working commerce squares or we connect it to the capital. Additionally, we haven't explored to the east. This means we haven't found any AIs which might be in that direction, which means we don't get research bonuses for the basic techs that they already possess. And of course we aren't working the gold squares right now, which is reducing our tech rate by over half by itself.
A reasonably close second city will have -2 or -3 maintenance and provides 1 commerce. So you lose a whopping 1 or 2 commerce in exchange for whatever super awesome tiles the 2nd city provides. Second you have a gold mine, which devalues commerce and increases production value.
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Hello, im gonna stream civ4 earth game right now, for those who dont know its at least 8 hours non stop game (if no crash :p) with ~14 human player, the map is simply our earth planet:
http://www.livestream.com/xfire_rodiel3
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On May 29 2011 04:07 Energizer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 09:43 Qatol wrote:On May 28 2011 09:09 Energizer wrote:On May 28 2011 05:38 Qatol wrote:
What is the pop of Delhi? (I don't have access to civ right now, but should by my turn.) We should really grow much closer to the happy cap before we make a worker. Besides, we need more warriors out there scouting for us. And from the tech rate it doesn't look like we are working the gold yet. Pop is 2 and making a settler (about halfway done). Now why did I not grow the city till it had a pop of 4 or more? Because thats ludicrous. It stalls the time it takes for a worker to get out which means more time it takes for the gold and corn to get developed and even more time until we get our second city and start expanding our borders. Its pointless to grow a city unless you actually have stuff the workers in the city can work on. Its called fast expanding. Worker first is standard and I wasn't suggesting deviating from that. It has been proven over on civfanatics that worker first is better than anything other than occasionally warrior or workboat for coastal starts. What I'm confused about is why you didn't grow the city more after getting the worker but before getting a settler. While it's bad to work undeveloped tiles, if you do your worker micro properly, you should not be spending much time doing so. And if you are really having that much trouble with working undeveloped tiles, why not chop out a second worker? Because you did spend some time growing the city to pop 2, what did you produce during that time? Is there a warrior sitting in the city or something? There are several problems with a settler this quickly: 1. Scouting. Because you got a settler instead of extra workers, we have no idea what good city spots are nearby. It doesn't make much sense to make a settler when you don't even know where he will go. 2. Protection. There are at least 3 categories of this: a. Protecting the new settler/city. It is still early. There are still a considerable number of animals out and about. If we send the settler out now unescorted, there are decent odds that it will be eaten by a random animal even if we are careful with it. Now assuming there is a warrior sitting in Delhi right now, we could use it to escort our settler, but then we run into another problem: b. Protecting our original city. If we send our settler out with the warrior, we have nothing to protect our original city. This may not be as bad of a problem as what I am used to however. I'm used to barbarians entering borders relatively soon, but that is on different settings. However, if this is the case, we want the warrior moving now because the settler is faster than the warrior. c. Fogbusting. Because we used our early hammers on a settler, we don't have anything keeping barbarians from spawning near our lands and barbarian cities from taking the good spots near us. From your exploration, I wouldn't be surprised if we are in the north, near the tundra. If this is the case, our barbarian problems will be pretty bad (because the AIs won't be settling up there early, so there is nothing stopping barbarians from spawning). 3. Workers. While you are avoiding time working unimproved tiles on Delhi a bit by making this settler, we don't have a worker available to improve our new city! If you send our worker off to improve that city, then we don't have a worker available to improve Delhi any more. If we make another worker to fix this problem, one of our cities isn't growing, which reduces our hammers and growth. 4. Tech rate. If I'm not mistaken, we don't have the wheel yet. (We shouldn't because it looks like you're working on AH and if we don't find horses, we need to beeline archery before going for something like the wheel). Because of this, a second city will not be connected to the capital via road, and thus will hurt our tech rate (via upkeep) until it starts working commerce squares or we connect it to the capital. Additionally, we haven't explored to the east. This means we haven't found any AIs which might be in that direction, which means we don't get research bonuses for the basic techs that they already possess. And of course we aren't working the gold squares right now, which is reducing our tech rate by over half by itself.
That being said, we can still salvage the situation. I recommend that whoever plays their turnset next switch to warriors for a bit and grow to 4 pop before continuing the settler. If there is a warrior in the capital, use it to scout east. Hopefully we will find horses or copper nearby. If that is the case, research the wheel and expand next to that spot. Otherwise, get archery and then the wheel. After the settler we are going to need a second worker and then more fogbusters/scouts. Chop them out if you need to. However, do NOT whip the capital unless we wind up racing an AI to an amazing spot. We don't need to cut our production of settlers/workers right now to get one settler a little faster otherwise. Um, no. The settler is already half way done and we are competing with 2 other civis for land grabs, we're not trying to do a OCC here. Moreover, if there is copper to the east or horses, then we need to get it hooked up asap for a possible rush (more then that, if we get either copper or horses then we dont NEED archery because we can rely on war chariots or axemen for D). And what will a warrior do RIGHT NOW? Nothing. Barbs dont appear in the game until the barb equation is met on cities (total civis on a continent * 2 cities = total cities). Once every civi has at least 2 citys then we have to worry about barbs, and even then it will take another 30-40 turns or so before they enter the borders.
Have you never heard of animals? And are you expecting our fogbusters to teleport from our cities to their proper places? I'm not suggesting a OCC. I'm just trying to keep us from doing a Two City Challenge. You do realize that growing gives a faster third city, don't you?
As for our tech rate. U need to stop worrying... seriously. our city will get to size 3 by no time which will allow us to work a gold mine increasing our tech rate considerably, and it wont take long for pop 4 to be reached.
And I'm saying that what you have done has already hurt our tech rate considerably. Early turns are more important than later turns. We should already have AH now and be working on either priesthood or archery by now.
As for tech path, well if we dont scout any strategic resources, might recommend bee lining for the oracle and getting either monarchy for the dual happiness bonus (our sentries across our cities and wine) or getting metal casting.
I disagree. This is wasted hammers. We seem to have a lot of land (unless someone is much closer than Izzy to the east). I think we should be focusing on filling it up as much as we can. If we do go oracle, I recommend aiming for currency or code of laws.
in regards to fogbusting, we dont need to worry about it this early in the game, we can more or less rely a bit more on the computer to deal with it while we work on our infrastructure a bit more (preferably by our 3erd city we start sending out stuff to fog bust in certain areas).
There is unlikely to be a computer to the north of us. And from what we've seen so far, there are no computers nearby to the south either.
On May 29 2011 04:31 igotmyown wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 05:38 Qatol wrote:
What is the pop of Delhi? (I don't have access to civ right now, but should by my turn.) We should really grow much closer to the happy cap before we make a worker. Besides, we need more warriors out there scouting for us. And from the tech rate it doesn't look like we are working the gold yet. There are several problems with a settler this quickly: 1. Scouting. Because you got a settler instead of extra workers, we have no idea what good city spots are nearby. It doesn't make much sense to make a settler when you don't even know where he will go.
Valid, but you can compensate with the 1.5x epic scouting bonus
Show nested quote +
2. Protection. There are at least 3 categories of this:
a. Protecting the new settler/city. It is still early. There are still a considerable number of animals out and about. If we send the settler out now unescorted, there are decent odds that it will be eaten by a random animal even if we are careful with it. Now assuming there is a warrior sitting in Delhi right now, we could use it to escort our settler, but then we run into another problem:
Valid but as long as your scouting warrior returns in time, it's fine.
The warrior cannot scout to compensate and the it will not return in time. It is really far away.
Show nested quote + b. Protecting our original city. If we send our settler out with the warrior, we have nothing to protect our original city. This may not be as bad of a problem as what I am used to however. I'm used to barbarians entering borders relatively soon, but that is on different settings. However, if this is the case, we want the warrior moving now because the settler is faster than the warrior. Completely wrong and unnecessary.
How exactly? I admit I'm not used to emperor or epic (I usually play Immortal or Deity normal), so the city thing may be unnecessary. However, at the very least, you want to scout out/fogbust the area your settler will be moving through unless you like losing settlers to barbs.
Show nested quote + c. Fogbusting. Because we used our early hammers on a settler, we don't have anything keeping barbarians from spawning near our lands and barbarian cities from taking the good spots near us. From your exploration, I wouldn't be surprised if we are in the north, near the tundra. If this is the case, our barbarian problems will be pretty bad (because the AIs won't be settling up there early, so there is nothing stopping barbarians from spawning). Ironically a size 2 settler, particularly on emperor, will beat barb spawns.
But not animals, which are actually more dangerous to settlers because half of them are 2 speed.
Show nested quote +3. Workers. While you are avoiding time working unimproved tiles on Delhi a bit by making this settler, we don't have a worker available to improve our new city! If you send our worker off to improve that city, then we don't have a worker available to improve Delhi any more. If we make another worker to fix this problem, one of our cities isn't growing, which reduces our hammers and growth. Incorrect, while building a settler you will have time to improve 1 or 2 tiles more than your population. Once you are working your improved tiles, you can build another worker. Put another way, would you rather delay working your second cities' free 2 food 1 hammer tile and the 1-2 special tiles, or would you rather delay a mine, which is only 1 better than a forested tile?
Your tile numbers are flat wrong. It is entirely variant based upon the tiles you are working and how many tiles you are working. As long as your tiles give 3 food + hammers, the faster the settler will come. Meanwhile, it takes a fixed amount of time to improve a tile. I agree that we should try to work improved tiles, but it is a mistake to start a settler on 2 population almost unilaterally.
Show nested quote +4. Tech rate. If I'm not mistaken, we don't have the wheel yet. (We shouldn't because it looks like you're working on AH and if we don't find horses, we need to beeline archery before going for something like the wheel). Because of this, a second city will not be connected to the capital via road, and thus will hurt our tech rate (via upkeep) until it starts working commerce squares or we connect it to the capital. Additionally, we haven't explored to the east. This means we haven't found any AIs which might be in that direction, which means we don't get research bonuses for the basic techs that they already possess. And of course we aren't working the gold squares right now, which is reducing our tech rate by over half by itself.
A reasonably close second city will have -2 or -3 maintenance and provides 1 commerce. So you lose a whopping 1 or 2 commerce in exchange for whatever super awesome tiles the 2nd city provides. Second you have a gold mine, which devalues commerce and increases production value.
We aren't working that gold mine, so moot point. Additionally, what awesome tiles are you talking about? Where is this awesome city spot you're talking about? The only potential spot worth taking right now shares the corn from the capital and picks up hills. And that doesn't merit a settler this quick.
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About growing vs expanding:
With maintenance
+ Show Spoiler +Let M(n,d[n+1]) be the increase in empirewide maintenance by adding an n+1st city at a distance of d[n+1] from the capital (In this notation d[i] is the distance from the capital of the ith city).
In the long run, if we increase empire wide maintenance by 4, we would have to switch two tiles to 2 food 2 commerce tiles to maintain equilibrium.
However, we get 1 commerce from the new city itself; you may even get an additional 1 if you have a trade route.
So new city negatively impacts empire wide production by
( M(n,d[n+1]) - 1 )/tile_c tiles, which would have otherwise yielded tile_y (tile yield). So the cost of the new city in food/hammers is
M(n,d[n+1])*tile_y/tile_c
Note:
[spoiler]If we give up a riverside mine for a riverside cottage, we are only netting one commerce, so in practice tile_c is increase in commerce from switching from our production oriented tile to our commerce tile. If by chance we have a domestic trade route to the new city, we can just pretend the new city costs the empire one less gold coin in maintenance[/spoiler]
Profit = Revenue - Cost
Profit = tile_y[n+1] - ( (M(n,d[n+1] ) -1 )*tile_y/tile_c
We divide our profit by our initial investment, that is 100 production.
Now we compare this to growing our ith city from size p[i] to p[i]+1.
Again Profit = Revenue - Cost
Cost = d[i]/29 + n/60
Note that in most cases this cost will usually be much less than 1.
Profit = yield'_fh + (yield'_c- d[i]/29 + n/60)*tile_y/tile_c
In most of these cases we're debating working a mine or it's commerce equivalent.
And the investment is 2*(10+p[i]) food, with an opportunity cost of
2*(10+p[i])*(f[i]+h[i])/f[i] food and hammers, where f[i] is the food surplus and h[i] is the hammer production of the ith city.
Ok, we have tons of variables. Let's simplify. Since the increase in maintenance from growing is much less than 1 and we're dealing with integer production values, we'll ignore that. We'll assume we are growing to work a mine, that is, a net +2 food/hammer production.
(tile_y[n+1] + ( 1+tile_c[n+1]- M(n,d[n+1] )*2/tile_c)/100 > 2/( 2*( 10+p[i] )*( f[i]+h[i] )/f[i] )
So what's the point of all this, since sometimes we may only care about maximizing hammers and other times we may care more about our tech rate? It provides a numerical value in the commerce adjusted value of new cities.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=306021
It's pretty straightforward. The only counter argument is that the value of getting something earlier (workers/growing is cheaper!) generates additional added investment. IE discrete investment has benefits.
But, if you ever tried to work out the growing formula (2 x (10 + n)) vs settlers into a differential equation and find an approximate solution, you'll find the discrete benefit is heavily outweighed by the linear factor/solution. And once again, size 3 to 4 costs
26 / 7 x 10 and produces +2, for about 37 hammers investment.
New city with a size 5 tile, 100 / 6 = 16.7 return. It can grow to size 2, and if it works another size 2 tile, that will be a 100 / 9 = 11 return. That's more than 3 times better than growing.
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If I am reading this correctly, your numbers are assuming the main city is growing into standard tiles, not specials, like we would be here. Does the math work out when you consider that you would be growing into specials (sorry, but I don't remember my diff eq well enough to do the math)?
Even if the math still favors early expansion in general, how would you apply that to this game? We can only see 1 unused size 5 tile in our immediate vicinity (any further away and we risk getting our settler sniped by a barb): the grassland cow to the west, which has limited blocking value and is frankly a rather poor city past the early game unless there is seafood over there (I assume your calculations assume the size 5 resource is in the inner circle, so the only spot which makes sense is 1SW of the gold).
I still think it is more important for us to set up fogbusters and scout the east.
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I canceled settler and built two warriors while Delhi reached size 4 so that both the corn and the gold are worked. Not sure why our warrior went all the way down south when Delhi was still surrounded by fog. Tech path went standard AH, Wheel, Pottery, Writing, Fishing. Went settler/worker/settler/worker/worker. Built two cities in what I'd like to think are obvious spots. Bombay is commerce, Vija is production. Plan is to try to run some scientists asap. Found a bunch of neighbors, Gilgamesh is to our east. I guess maybe try to get Alphabet so we can trade it. We have horses and copper so barbs shouldnt be a problem.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/7JD99l.jpg)
http://i.imgur.com/7JD99.jpg
Current Save, 2025 BC
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Count me in too.Used to play at emperor lvl like a year ago, but hopefully still can manage not to suck
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Great turnset, Zulu.
I have a few questions:
Why did we make a pasture for the horses but no road + we don't have the population to work it? I'm guessing you made the pasture after AH came in, but had already moved the worker away before the wheel came in?
And why are we farming a square (the FP?) when we don't have the population to work the horse yet + the horse is not hooked up?
The only other things I would have done differently are grow Delhi to 5 at some point to work the horses and settle Vija 1N for the extra PH hammer + cow in the inner circle so it gets its infrastructure up a little bit faster. Also it gets an oasis then for a little bit more food. But this is mostly just nitpicking.
It looks like you used a chop 1N of Bombay, so I'm guessing it already has a monument? (great work!) The next player should probably throw a chop into Vija's monument and then get granaries up in both Vija and Bombay while Delhi makes a warrior for Vija.
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Zulu, did you PM the next person?
Love the 2 other city placements, bombay while it does look like it can be commerce, I think it can be turn into a strong production site down the road when waterwheels are unlocked.
Biggest thing now though is what to do now? From what I remember in my play through, Egypt did not have any strategic resources (or if they do, its certainly not metal based). Which offers a unique situation where a holy city is perfect for the picking should we choose to start massing up axemen to hit isabella allowing us some more breathing room (We're organized, so we dont have to worry as much about upkeep. Best use that to our advantage).
Of course, we could also try to get a monopoly on alphabet, see what we can trade. Or skip it in favor of attempting to get TGL for Dehli.
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@ Qatol, like you said, I got AH before wheel so the horse isn't hooked up. I believe the worker is building a road to the gold so I can connect Bombay and Delhi, mostly for the workers, not so much for the resources which will be connected anyway with sailing. Agreed with both of your suggestions. I think at the time I was just focused on having as few ocean tiles as possible. Monument was chopped in Bombay.
@Energizer, sorry just PM'd beater after I got your PM. Bombay would need moai too and I'm not sure if there's enough food to support everything. There are so many neighbors on our continent we'll get into trouble for sure if we start a religion. Unless we do a COL slingshot, it would be difficult to start one anyway. I'm not too sure what we should do now, a GL seems possible but we're getting sailling pretty late.
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I got the PM. I'll play my turns either late tonight or some time tomorrow.
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On June 01 2011 05:31 zulu_nation8 wrote:
@ Qatol, like you said, I got AH before wheel so the horse isn't hooked up. I believe the worker is building a road to the gold so I can connect Bombay and Delhi, mostly for the workers, not so much for the resources which will be connected anyway with sailing. Agreed with both of your suggestions. I think at the time I was just focused on having as few ocean tiles as possible. Monument was chopped in Bombay.
@Energizer, sorry just PM'd beater after I got your PM. Bombay would need moai too and I'm not sure if there's enough food to support everything. There are so many neighbors on our continent we'll get into trouble for sure if we start a religion. Unless we do a COL slingshot, it would be difficult to start one anyway. I'm not too sure what we should do now, a GL seems possible but we're getting sailling pretty late.
Whoop, shoulda been more clear, meant the great library, not lighthouse my bad lol.
and we wouldnt need to automatically switch once we take the holy city, but it would be a useful asset to try and get the other civies in on budda. Not to mention, the gold u can receive from a shine is usually nothing to scold at.
Really, its up to proxi to determine where we go from here. GL to you sir!
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Those citysites look good for endgame, but it has no resource in inner ring. I would have my focus on immediate gains rather than long term investment.
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On June 01 2011 05:31 zulu_nation8 wrote:
@ Qatol, like you said, I got AH before wheel so the horse isn't hooked up. I believe the worker is building a road to the gold so I can connect Bombay and Delhi, mostly for the workers, not so much for the resources which will be connected anyway with sailing. Agreed with both of your suggestions. I think at the time I was just focused on having as few ocean tiles as possible. Monument was chopped in Bombay.
@Energizer, sorry just PM'd beater after I got your PM. Bombay would need moai too and I'm not sure if there's enough food to support everything. There are so many neighbors on our continent we'll get into trouble for sure if we start a religion. Unless we do a COL slingshot, it would be difficult to start one anyway. I'm not too sure what we should do now, a GL seems possible but we're getting sailling pretty late.
If we can get phants, elepult war looks pretty good from this position. But I'm guessing Isabella has the cow/ivory spot by now?
I guess we could consider a Horse Archer push too, though it is a little late for that. But if Isabella really doesn't have metals, Horse Archers would be a lot better than Axes due to the distance. Plus it transitions into elepult pretty well, especially if Isabella has taken the ivory spot.
I'm a little worried that we don't have much land to expand into, but it's hard to tell what we have to the SE from the screenshots. I'll be able to give everything a better look in 2 days. The decision to war really hinges on how much good land there is to settle. If we can expand a bit more, I am also a big fan of the Great Library.
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I cant seem to open any of the save file. I have the bug mod, but that shouldnt be required... its giving me an error though. Weird.
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On June 02 2011 06:34 NIJ wrote:
I cant seem to open any of the save file. I have the bug mod, but that shouldnt be required... its giving me an error though. Weird.
Was doing the same for me but then i downloaded the better BUG AI mod and its all fine.
link: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=354019
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My plan going into my turns was simple: mass up a bunch of chariots/horse archers, conquer the barbarian city to the east which has elephants and then go for an elephant/catapult army.
After researching fishing I decided to go for horseback riding. I didn't realise at the time that you need archery to make horsemen, but we can still make stables while we wait for hunting and archery.
I whipped a sailing boat and a granary in Bombay and began construction of a library
I chopped out the monument in vijayagara (did I spell that right?) and began working on a barracks. I don't know if I should have made a granary instead, but it didn't strike me as a city where we would be doing a lot of whipping, so I went ahead with the barracks.
Delhi has grown to size 6 and spent most of the time crancking out chariots after I built a barracks.
Overall it was a pretty uneventful set of turns. Our scouting warrior survived getting attacked by a barbarian archer and a barbarian warrior poked around vijayagara before suiciding against the city walls. Gilgamesh also asked me to cancel relations with the Mali, but Mali is closer so I declined
Pictures:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/KRio0.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/OI3Eo.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/gO8cq.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/rRVRz.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Zjco8.jpg)
The save: http://www61.zippyshare.com/v/19199837/file.html
NIJ, you're up! PM has been sent
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I got the save. I took a look at it, but I'm still @ work. I might play tonight if I'm not tired. I'm already falling asleep here @ work... long day.
There's lot to do here. From what I glimpsed @. Here's my rough plan.
-Spain needs to be scouted. Idk why the warrior went so far, when we need intel on our immediate surrounding areas.
-Vija needs to be networked. Border pops is also inc. Much needed cause that city as of now is dead weight. Once special resources are worked it should get better.
-I'm also contemplating not going for eles and prepping with HAs asap. Want to take out spain asap while their power rating is low and small.
-which all means ill need more workers. There's not enough workers right now and I need to Network vijay, develop tiles there and chop/pre chop forests. Delhi's happy is capped so ill pump some out there until archery to ha spam.
-If I skip eles I probably won't go math either. Its inefficient chop, but time is crucial here. Also once we get archery I wanna start preparing for tech that can help maintain our size after war, so beelining to construction will further delay that. Both mali and spain has alpha. I'm gonna have to somehow workout a trade here (iirc I only saw hbr offerable tho). Don't wanna miss out on tech brokering.
Questions, comments, feedback, criticism? Make them before I finalizemy decision by tonight/tomorrow morning.
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/NNM0n.jpg)
I got my army prepared to take out spain. Scouted the barb city to find that there were stacks of archers defending the town and AI as usual stalking around like vultures. From there we meet a new civ.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Vhr0m.jpg)
And Justinian does the work for us and gets us a new religion. I wait a bit before switching to not piss off Izzy.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/qxjki.jpg)
Plains mines scouted.... Oh yea shes got iron. I am going to hit fast with HAs though so hopefully she'll only have time for 1 or 2 spears.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/GTLax.jpg)
autosave right before the attack.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/gNiB5.jpg)
War progress at my endturn
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/J70gd.jpg)
Tech situation
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Yz3MI.jpg)
Stuff left to do:
-spread religion, switch to OR
-kill off spain
-Fill out vacant spots with cities / get barb city
The save
https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B4Oy30X6L9r_MTUyNjZhMjAtODcyOS00MGI5LWE2NDAtYThhOTg5NTRlNGVk&hl=en_US
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hard to criticize your turn, especially when we are doubling the size of our empire and leading in tech heheh.
to whoever plays next; I would strongly recommend sacking cordorba as its in a relatively useless spot with mountains covering its BFC. Seville on the other hand (from what I can see) seems to be in a excellent spot for a sugar city, and just further down we can settle over by the gems.
it doesn't appear that there is anyone that close to us either (at least to the point where we are fighting for border control), thus I think now would be a good time to spam out some cottage cities and as a hobby, working on splitting this hindi bloc so we arnt a target to any AI. Start pumping out those missionaries!
As far as tech path goes, wouldnt mind grabbing the great library after we finish currency. It would secure our tech lead and the GP point bonus is always nice to have then pick up monarchy for the happiness. Otherwise, we could just continue on with the military techs (mathematics/construction).
Also, please reupload the save on another site, google doesnt seem to be working for us (invalid link)
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oops the file was private by default. it should be fixed now.
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I got the PM. I will be playing sometime this weekend, probably tomorrow.
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It looks like I'm going to have to pass after all. This save seems to require the Better BUG AI mod, which crashes my version of the game when I try to load it. I have BUG loaded, so I don't understand what is going on.
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On June 05 2011 03:22 Qatol wrote:
It looks like I'm going to have to pass after all. This save seems to require the Better BUG AI mod, which crashes my version of the game when I try to load it. I have BUG loaded, so I don't understand what is going on.
Did you try uninstalling the current version of bug mod then reinstalling with the better bug AI mod? Its the only thing I think that would fix that crash (unless its a hardware issue).
and I'm going to be looking more into this. I thought it was possible to play without the bug mod but apparently I was wrong. If I cant find a solution, then it will be a poll for the next succession game to play with or without the mod.
EDIT:
Rodiel... Do not post in this thread for self-advertising if you please. This is a thread for our succession game, not someone's tool to promote stream viewers.
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On June 05 2011 03:55 Energizer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2011 03:22 Qatol wrote:
It looks like I'm going to have to pass after all. This save seems to require the Better BUG AI mod, which crashes my version of the game when I try to load it. I have BUG loaded, so I don't understand what is going on. Did you try uninstalling the current version of bug mod then reinstalling with the better bug AI mod? Its the only thing I think that would fix that crash (unless its a hardware issue). and I'm going to be looking more into this. I thought it was possible to play without the bug mod but apparently I was wrong. If I cant find a solution, then it will be a poll for the next succession game to play with or without the mod.
Yeah I tried that. It still crashes. I highly doubt this is a hardware issue. BUG still works fine (and I know you can play without BUG and with BUG just fine), but not Better BUG AI.
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Yeah I tried that. But I'm still getting a black screen that I have to use the process manager to kill.
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Well the first thing i noticed was the fact that we are actually in war not only with Isabella but with Frederick as well. As i had no idea where his land is and didnt want a random stack coming to my exposed Vija, I killed his scout and took a peace treaty.
![[image loading]](http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/5291/civ4screenshot0000m.jpg)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us
From there i continued to conquer Spain. First city on the list was Seville.
![[image loading]](http://img541.imageshack.us/img541/6109/civ4screenshot0001w.jpg)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us
And not much later, with the valliant help of Bernard Montgomery ( Spain didnt have Rommel unfortunately)..
![[image loading]](http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/1425/civ4screenshot0003b.jpg)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us
Spain is history !
From there i tried to minimaze the crushing weight of maintance, worked tiles in newly conquered cities. Used bulb compass with 1st scientist as i was 2 turns away from music. The plan was to use the artist to pop golden age to boost my eco, however that kinda failed as Mali got it on the next turn (damn you 1 turn failures!).
As i had literature handy and vija is a production powerhouse, i built The Greater Library in there ~ probably not the best city with science but it reduced the gp timer by like 2/3 so i guess it was worth it.
In the meantime some scouting was done by our pro chariot, spread hinduism into all cities except one, but the missionary is already on his way (got 4 times fail spread ;s). Settled one city at wine and conq the barb ele one. That one is gettin crushed by Mali culture, so we need some culture boost in there.
What needs to be done
- our power had fallen off so i suggest starting ele/pult army to take us higher ( already started production in top 3 developed cities)
- maintance still a big problem so code of laws should be priority after doing the philo trade session
- there are sereval barb cities to the west that are awaiting to be conquered
Some screens how it looks overall : Gilgames vs Justinian and Fred vs Surv is on atm
![[image loading]](http://img861.imageshack.us/img861/4006/civ4screenshot0004.jpg)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us
Tech: not the best but philo should help us
![[image loading]](http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/8198/civ4screenshot0005.jpg)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us
Save : https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B0SM88VOc9AyY2FkZTdlYWYtNzdmZi00MDAyLTgwMzYtM2Y5YWI1ZGU0ZmMw&hl=en_US
Like i said i havent played for over a year, so any comments on what should i have done differently / better would be greatly appreciated thanks
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Did Qatol have to drop because of save issue?
freddy got war bribed by izzy, which was her only religious friend. You did the right thing by just signing peace treaty after his "diplo lock" wore off. He's quite the pussy tho as an AI so its no big threat. His unitprob is one of the lowest.
Hmm seems like we slipped in tech a bit. But thats okay. We need to do something about that beaker per turn. The great scientist is running late because I think I was only able to run 1 at the time. Can we speed that now? Once we get that I think Delhi could be a nice spot, or bombay if delhi needs to be specialized for other needs. Someone before me started on lib on bombay so thats when the bpt was stacked atm. Once we get our first GS, we should make a permanent decision though.
I figured Gilgamesh would DoW on Justin. heh. Justin is quite the puss as an ai too and his power rating isnt as good either. Gotta watch out on that, gilga can MAYBE run him over, but for the moment justin is the strongest so this could be a very good thing to keep him down, even though hes a good ally atm.
one more thing in this game: Mali as usual, friggin one of the tech leaders in game. His WFTYABTA cap is the highest iirc. He has a chance at running away in tech so you have to watch out for that when trading tech. He's a good trading partner, but at the same time you dont want to give stuff to him too freely because he'll broker techs like crazy.
Oh and you might have to unprivatize your file in google doc. I seem to have the same problem other ppl had with my file when accessing yours.
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Yeah it doesn't look like I can get around the Better BUG AI issue. I guess I'll have to just give comments here from time to time and wait until there's a game without that mod.
Punkstar, from your writeup I see a few problems:
1. You kept every city you took from Isabella. As an example, Cordoba doesn't have much use outside of a marginal GP farm. This is also one reason why we slipped in tech a bit.
2. You said you bulbed Compass. This is a huge waste, especially on a map with this many nearby leaders (looks like a Fractal-->Pangaea to me). Waiting for Meditation and bulbing Philosophy would have been a much better move. While Compass can be a decent trading chip, it is a dead end tech for now.
3. Why are you researching calendar and drama? Calendar is relatively easy to trade for after MoM goes and Music can be grabbed from Literature. Besides, we don't have the hammers to spare to make theaters right now. The focus should have been Construction, Code of Laws, and Civil Service.
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On June 06 2011 06:07 Qatol wrote:
Yeah it doesn't look like I can get around the Better BUG AI issue. I guess I'll have to just give comments here from time to time and wait until there's a game without that mod.
Punkstar, from your writeup I see a few problems:
1. You kept every city you took from Isabella. As an example, Cordoba doesn't have much use outside of a marginal GP farm. This is also one reason why we slipped in tech a bit.
2. You said you bulbed Compass. This is a huge waste, especially on a map with this many nearby leaders (looks like a Fractal-->Pangaea to me). Waiting for Meditation and bulbing Philosophy would have been a much better move. While Compass can be a decent trading chip, it is a dead end tech for now.
3. Why are you researching calendar and drama? Calendar is relatively easy to trade for after MoM goes and Music can be grabbed from Literature. Besides, we don't have the hammers to spare to make theaters right now. The focus should have been Construction, Code of Laws, and Civil Service.
1,
Yeah, was hesitant about whether i should raze it or not. But aside from Madrid all the captured cities are basically commercial ones with no decent production ~ so i decided to keep it. Cordoba is atm 2nd best prod city despite being only the half size.
2,
I agree, that was a bad move, should have saved him.
3,
Ew i dont know why i took drama that early, mansa's culture is crusing our 2 new east cities, so prolly was thinking about chop/whip theater there. Construction was traded, CoL will be a easy trade from Fred or Gilg . That means civil service should be researched after philo is done.
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Normally after I play my set, I have a huge write up with lots of pictures and interesting dilemmas to talk about.
Not so much this run.
Immediately I started trading away our excess resources for some bonus cash, then I changed our tech to grab CoL, then go back to philosophy. Once I got CoL, I switched to caste system and maxed on as many scientists as most of the cities could hold (generally 2-3) Which spurred our tech rate considerably
This allowed us to get Civil Service, Paper, Education (bulbed)... noticing the pattern here?? Yeh, its the liberalism race.
+ Show Spoiler [Trades] +
As far as wonders go, didn't really pursue any.
Moai statues being constructed in madrid
Vajigagya Should be making the heroic Epic once its done with its light house. Then work on pumping out military units.
Shakespeare theater and national epic should both really be constructed at our GP farm. My recommendation would be toldeo (Water, grassland, and a lake for more farms. Perfect for massing citizens to be specialized). So to whoever is next, please get right on that!
Tech situation
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/iGVBW.jpg)
We are about 5 turns from lib. It will be up to the next person to getting it right away, or saving it while pursing another tech so we can use our free tech on something even more juicy (no one else had education!)
Also, most of our cities now have forges and courthouses, and because we now have lib in our grasp, I would recommend looking through our cities and removing our scientists to begin military production once more (Possibly hit kmar, easy pickings as far as I can tell). Preferably overrunning him with calvary.
World map;
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/INlvD.jpg)
The save; [url blocked]
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GJ on getting tech lead back. Looks like we have the lib down. What should we get?
Khmer and germany should all be our land eventually. :evil: maybe even push some of those inconvenient mali borders off too. Possibly even vassalize him. That's for way later tho.
Mali and byz emp are fine as is, but if they decide to expand to sumer, hre, we got a problem. They started off rather weak. How are they now. Justin also didn't have much army to speak of before. So I may be over worrying about a non issue.
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Energizer, looks like a great set. That extra tech will really help. Liberalism seems like a logical target right here. However, I have one major comment:
Two of your trades don't make any sense to me. Specifically, Philosophy for Feudalism and Civil Service for Optics. While Feudalism is a fine tech, Mansa is probably our biggest threat in the Liberalism race. Why help him along that path? Plus he's a major tech broker, so giving him Philosophy gives it to everyone else too. And we aren't at war nor does it look like war will happen any time soon. If it does, we can probably still grab Feudalism from Mansa at that point because he likes us. Optics simply doesn't help us much unless we're planning on trying to grab the circumnavigation bonus/ gun for Astronomy for overseas trade routes. But you didn't make any caravels. So why get optics? It just raises our WFYABTA level unnecessarily at this point and helps out whomever you traded Civil Service to (Freddie/Charlie?).
As far as the free tech goes, we are in a great position to get Military Tradition or even go for Steel or Replaceable Parts/ Rifling (though I doubt we can get them after helping Mansa's Liberalism race unless we have a ton of Great Scientists saved up). Astronomy doesn't make sense because Mansa already has it. We want a monopoly tech with our free tech. To make sure we get it, just tech Liberalism until you only need 1 turn left, and then keep tabs on when people grab Education. Finish off Liberalism pretty quickly after Education goes.
How is Oxford coming?
This looks like a pretty easy war timing. Take your pick of Cuirassiers, Cannons, or Rifles/Cavalry.
Also, what are those other civs you can see (but not talk to) thanks to the map trade? Looks like maybe China or Babylon?
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Hey guys for anyone interested in getting into civ 4, it's $7 on steam for the complete pack(base game and DLCs), really good deal I just picked it up. Can't wait!
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Initial thoughts on the save:
- We have had too few workers, 7 workers for 11 cities. There are too many unimproved tiles in BFCs at 950 AD.
- We have little population, commerce, and production, and our cities are growing slowly, partly because we're running specialists randomly. Lots of tiles have improvements that do not make much sense.
- Why was the GL built in Vajigagya, a city much better suited for production, and one that only has two villages and a town at this point (don't know why it was cottaged at all), and the city we want to build HE in?
- Toledo has two grassland sugars as food resources and two gems, it would be a much better cottage city. A GP farm needs preferably two or three real food resources. Cordoba on the other hand wouldn't be a bad candidate, though its grasslands need biology in order to be farmed.
At the start I traded for some health and happiness resources with Khmer and Charlemagne. I stopped Liberalism at 1 turn and used it to get Military Tradition after researching Nationalism. Teched Gunpowder after that and the plan is to cuirassier either Mansa or Sury. Mansa went the path of Astronomy, Scientific Method, and now Constitution. He still doesn't have Education yet. I think he should be the first target because of how close and how much of a tech whore he is, if we go to war with Sury, Mansa will get out of control and we might not be able to catch up.
I basically just overhauled improvements and made sure cities are growing, working the right tiles, specialized correctly, etc. Mansa got the +1 ship bonus but I got a caravel so we can make contact with the other continent. Madrid is the Buddhist holy city but we don't have any way of getting a great priest. I built an academy in Madrid with a GS from Vajigagya. We have 4/8 universities for Oxford. Delhi, Madrid, and Vajigagya are producing cuirassiers while the rest are building universities. Traded Education to Charlemagne for Printing Press. Tech path went Engineering to Chemistry after Military Tradition, plan is to get steel for cannons. HE was constructed in Vajigagya. Everyone except Mansa, Sury, and Frederick is at war. Sury and Frederick made peace a couple turns ago. Justinian has the Apostolic Palace.
When you bring up F1, all cities should have at least 2 surplus food at all times if they are not happiness capped and are not running specialists. Try to cottage grassland before plains or else the plain cottages will never get worked. Vajigagya did not have enough food to run cottages so its villages were razed for farms to support mines.
Current Save: https://rapidshare.com/files/2729828847/TeamLiquid_AD-1265.CivBeyondSwordSave
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/mAcnOl.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/3h66sl.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/5nsoBl.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/o9LRal.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/rKV3Hl.jpg)
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Sounds like I have some sim-citying to look forward to. I'll be playing my turns within 3-4 days.
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Good turnset again zulu. I didn't realize the tiles were improved so poorly. It looks like your overhaul was very much needed. I absolutely love what you did with Vija and trading the resources. Did you manage to get any gpt? It is often more important than an extra health resource if our health cap is higher than our happy cap (which it should be until we start using factories). A few things though:
1. Why does Sury have so much money and not have drama, code of laws, or compass? They are all relatively harmless techs to give him (code of laws less than the other two), he might get gifted the tech randomly by Mansa anyways if they are friends, and we have better uses for that money than he does.
2. I disagree that we should wait for biology to farm Cordoba. It looks like we can bring some water over to those grassland tiles from the west or from the south. West looks like a better move so we can cottage up Toledo and Santiago more fully. Then we just drop some workshops on some of the grasslands south of Madrid to eat up any food surplus it has at happy cap. It even already has Moai.
3. Why are there cottages next to Madrid? It looks like a no brainer production city (give the incense to Barcelona), especially if we can get our hands on Guilds, which looks doable in the near future since Freddy already has it and it will be tradeable when one or two other leaders get it.
4. Why no binary tech (only researching at 0% or 100% except when it will finish off an important tech)? It looks like you're researching at 70%? We have libraries/universities/academies, so binary teching is an easy way to speed up our tech a little bit via the extra multiplied beakers, and it could be worse if we are losing commerce to rounding.
5. I absolutely agree that Mansa should be the target. He doesn't have gunpowder, won't be getting it anytime soon (he's going for Democracy probably), doesn't have Guilds, has a low unitprob, and is an obnoxious techer with what looks like decent land. The only real drawback is it looks like we acquire new neighbors if we kill him plus there's always the danger of bribes (but we can minimize that with begging). However, it is probably worth it to take him out before he gets a really obnoxious defensive unit like rifles.
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im waiting on proxi's turn
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On June 19 2011 03:21 NIJ wrote:
im waiting on proxi's turn
Maybe we should skip him? He said 3-4 days almost a week ago.
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Alright it's been long enough. I'll play my turn by tonight.
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On June 22 2011 03:34 NIJ wrote:
Alright it's been long enough. I'll play my turn by tonight.
Are you still around?
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On June 27 2011 14:23 Qatol wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2011 03:34 NIJ wrote:
Alright it's been long enough. I'll play my turn by tonight. Are you still around?
This, I's like to see what you're doing with the new tech lead!
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So as it seems like the game has died off, can some1 here help me with a game I kinda struggling with. Its Panguea, largemap size, 18civs, aggressive AI on, immortal difficulty -> some sort of civilization deathmatch style.
If anyone is interested I'll post the save asap
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If you post it I'm sure there are a few of us who will take a look at it assuming we can open the save
A large map with 18 civs sounds pretty crowded so you had better hope you have strategic resources!
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EPT![[image loading]](http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/90/civ4screenshot0000m.jpg/)
![[image loading]](http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/541/civ4screenshot0001w.jpg/)
![[image loading]](http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/714/civ4screenshot0003b.jpg/)
![[image loading]](http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/861/civ4screenshot0004.jpg/)
![[image loading]](http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/844/civ4screenshot0005.jpg/)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/I2EiL.png)
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