EPTI can see some very tangential cases where bunnyhopping requires a little more positioning, but really the difference is negligible outside of making it slightly easier for newbies to learn. t
Tribes: Ascend - FPS announced by Hi-Rez Studios. - Page 11
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Thereisnosaurus
Australia1822 Posts
I can see some very tangential cases where bunnyhopping requires a little more positioning, but really the difference is negligible outside of making it slightly easier for newbies to learn. t | ||
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Tachion
Canada8573 Posts
On October 14 2011 15:49 Thereisnosaurus wrote: I don't see why people are so fixated on the whole skiing being a slide instead of a bunnyhop. It actually makes sense and it's not as if holding down the jump button takes any more skill than... holding down the ski button. I can see some very tangential cases where bunnyhopping requires a little more positioning, but really the difference is negligible outside of making it slightly easier for newbies to learn. t To skimp on the essay and just give the bottom line, it's because these type of skiing mechanics give the player less control. Ex: you can't ski along the side of a slope because 0 friction means you'll just slide to the bottom instead of 'gliding' along with the curvatures of the terrain. Bowl routes for instance did not exist in T:V without use of a grappler because there was no way to keep momentum skiing along that terrain. It's a step backwards to what they made 10+ years ago which is just mind boggling. | ||
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Muey
Finland149 Posts
On October 13 2011 17:17 pzea469 wrote: About listening to older tribes players, I'm pretty sure they are. On their facebook they posted a link to a vet talking about how he liked the game but thought it was perhaps too slow(although maybe he wasnt a REAL vet, idk), and that skiing need to be faster and so on. I dunno who the guy in the interview is, but essentially everyone in the Tribes community that has had hands-on experience with the game either from closed alpha or one of the cons, who hasn't outright dismissed it immidiately as a piece of shit, has basically said that "needs a lot of work but if they fix X, Y, Z it has potential". The problem is they aren't listening. The feedback from the alpha was relatively unanimous in terms of changes the game needed. People (vets and newcomers alike) offered suggestions on how to improve the game. The suggestions were duly ignored, because they clashed with the Hirez' "vision" of "Tribes". It pretty clear they're more interested in pushing their own version of the game because they feel it's going to make the game more popular/make them more money, rather than creating a true sequel to the series (like they themselves announced they were going to do in the game's initial press release).If you need to sacrifice gameplay to achieve it, then so be it! Also people saying that it will only be servers through HighRes, I'm not sure that's true. I just watched an interview where it is stated that a planned feature to help esports, along with spectator modes and all that, are private servers. Yeah you gotta log in through hi rez to make sure you're not hacking and so forth, but you can then start a private server. There will be some form of "private servers", but the way they've been spinning it is that you're most likely going to have to hire it from some authorized hosting company or something, rather than downloading a server client and setting it up on your own box. Regardless, they've said that "private servers" won't be available on launch day, with no hint of schedule. | ||
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BrTarolg
United Kingdom3574 Posts
so many things that the game had potential for they screwed it up and tbh, it doesnt matter how many times we bug them or tell them exactly what they could do they just wanna keep squeezing blood out of stone and releasing more hats and more $$$ generation machines | ||
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Coriolis
United States1152 Posts
On October 14 2011 18:16 Muey wrote: I dunno who the guy in the interview is, but essentially everyone in the Tribes community that has had hands-on experience with the game either from closed alpha or one of the cons, who hasn't outright dismissed it immidiately as a piece of shit, has basically said that "needs a lot of work but if they fix X, Y, Z it has potential". The problem is they aren't listening. The feedback from the alpha was relatively unanimous in terms of changes the game needed. People (vets and newcomers alike) offered suggestions on how to improve the game. The suggestions were duly ignored, because they clashed with the Hirez' "vision" of "Tribes". It pretty clear they're more interested in pushing their own version of the game because they feel it's going to make the game more popular/make them more money, rather than creating a true sequel to the series (like they themselves announced they were going to do in the game's initial press release).If you need to sacrifice gameplay to achieve it, then so be it! Pretty much what I've heard from all the testers/people who played it at PAX/Quakecon. | ||
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pzea469
United States1520 Posts
On October 14 2011 22:30 Coriolis wrote: Pretty much what I've heard from all the testers/people who played it at PAX/Quakecon. Hmmmm, well I guess we can only hope that their vision ends up being a good one. Sound's like it will be very different from the old tribes. If I had played more of tribes back then I'd probably feel this way too. Same way I felt when going from bw to sc2. We must try and take this game as a reimagining of tribes, even if they're selling it as going back to the roots. It's definitely their own take on it. It's also definitely tribes, pretty much because its the same world and it has jetpacks and skiing, but it's a different tribes, for better or for worse. When a game changes like this, you just gotta hope that the game will have it's own unique set of skills and tactics to be figured out. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
That said, the loadout changes may ultimately prove beneficial for gameplay. One of the problems with higher level Tribes play is that it was really, really hard to score at times (particularly on larger maps) because the chasers were so good with the spinfusor/chaingun combo (sniping helped too). I'm not familiar with the new weapons, but less spinfusor/chaingun users should mean easier flag capping. | ||
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pzea469
United States1520 Posts
On October 16 2011 13:18 xDaunt wrote: I can live with the different physics model, but this uncustomizable, class-based loadout system kinda blows. As a former T2/LD player, my thoughts basically mirror kzn's post from above. Tribes has always been a spinfusor/chaingun game, and you used your extra slot(s) and pack option to really customize. That said, the loadout changes may ultimately prove beneficial for gameplay. One of the problems with higher level Tribes play is that it was really, really hard to score at times (particularly on larger maps) because the chasers were so good with the spinfusor/chaingun combo (sniping helped too). I'm not familiar with the new weapons, but less spinfusor/chaingun users should mean easier flag capping. Well one positive thing would be that players would be more diverse. Even though the other tribes had fully customizeable loadouts, spinfusor/chaingun was shared by most loadouts. So even though there was complete freedom with that, players would actually be more alike than in a restricted class based loadout Ascend is going to have. Could be negatives too though, like everyone picks the only class that has both an automatic weapon and a spinfusor, but I'm thinking they'll hit a good balance. | ||
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Coriolis
United States1152 Posts
On October 16 2011 18:19 pzea469 wrote: Well one positive thing would be that players would be more diverse. Even though the other tribes had fully customizeable loadouts, spinfusor/chaingun was shared by most loadouts. So even though there was complete freedom with that, players would actually be more alike than in a restricted class based loadout Ascend is going to have. Could be negatives too though, like everyone picks the only class that has both an automatic weapon and a spinfusor, but I'm thinking they'll hit a good balance. Honestly I don't see how pubs will work with this system. You're going to end up with teams where everyone has an offensive loadout, noone with defense or who knows what. And then in comp people are going to be angry because you will need more people to fill the same positions because of the lack of multiple weapons. The only party that wins is hirez, because I'm sure they will make it so you basically have to pay to get the loadouts. | ||
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BrTarolg
United Kingdom3574 Posts
On October 17 2011 03:36 Coriolis wrote: Honestly I don't see how pubs will work with this system. You're going to end up with teams where everyone has an offensive loadout, noone with defense or who knows what. And then in comp people are going to be angry because you will need more people to fill the same positions because of the lack of multiple weapons. The only party that wins is hirez, because I'm sure they will make it so you basically have to pay to get the loadouts. Congratulations, you have just coined exactly why they are making the game bad and doing stuff they way they are | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On October 17 2011 03:36 Coriolis wrote: Honestly I don't see how pubs will work with this system. You're going to end up with teams where everyone has an offensive loadout, noone with defense or who knows what. And then in comp people are going to be angry because you will need more people to fill the same positions because of the lack of multiple weapons. The only party that wins is hirez, because I'm sure they will make it so you basically have to pay to get the loadouts. Eh, I don't think that it will be that bad. Just look at other class-based games, whether it be LoL or TF2. Pubs are generally good about getting decent team compositions. | ||
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Razith
Canada431 Posts
On October 14 2011 16:38 Tachion wrote: To skimp on the essay and just give the bottom line, it's because these type of skiing mechanics give the player less control. Ex: you can't ski along the side of a slope because 0 friction means you'll just slide to the bottom instead of 'gliding' along with the curvatures of the terrain. Bowl routes for instance did not exist in T:V without use of a grappler because there was no way to keep momentum skiing along that terrain. It's a step backwards to what they made 10+ years ago which is just mind boggling. Can't say much but this isn't what they're using. Fallen Empires: Legions uses this concept and its nothing like what T:A is using thankfully. T:A skiing is actually awesome, its other things that need tweaking for movement, which should have everyone excited because they are very minor. Bowls / riding curvatures isn't a problem in T:A like it was in T:V. A lot of things in this thread are wrong. There is a huge gap between how skiing actually works and how people are guessing how it works based off the minimal information they receive. HUGE gaps. Until you play it yourself, you can't really comment on it at all. So please, specifically these Tribes 'know-it-all' Vets, don't speculate based off the little misinformation out there. Use your knowledge to come up with ways a class-based system could work for competitive tribes. It may be hard and require some original thinking, but you guys are worrying about the wrong things. Hell, barely anyone has played enough to comment on the class based system so far. You guys know the important roles in the competitive scene. This may be where HiRez is lacking, and is looking for help in beta. | ||
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Coriolis
United States1152 Posts
On October 17 2011 13:02 Razith wrote: Can't say much but this isn't what they're using. Fallen Empires: Legions uses this concept and its nothing like what T:A is using thankfully. T:A skiing is actually awesome, its other things that need tweaking for movement, which should have everyone excited because they are very minor. Bowls / riding curvatures isn't a problem in T:A like it was in T:V. A lot of things in this thread are wrong. There is a huge gap between how skiing actually works and how people are guessing how it works based off the minimal information they receive. HUGE gaps. Until you play it yourself, you can't really comment on it at all. So please, specifically these Tribes 'know-it-all' Vets, don't speculate based off the little misinformation out there. Use your knowledge to come up with ways a class-based system could work for competitive tribes. It may be hard and require some original thinking, but you guys are worrying about the wrong things. Hell, barely anyone has played enough to comment on the class based system so far. You guys know the important roles in the competitive scene. This may be where HiRez is lacking, and is looking for help in beta. The important roles simply don't work with their model. They're more or less taking a primary/secondary system for their loadouts....A LD needs at the least a disc+chaingun, which no loadouts have, as well as a grenade launcher to help chase or a sniper to kill flag carriers. But no, under hirez's philopshy if you have a sniper YOU WILL ONLY SNIPE. Todd even said in an interview, why should a sniper be good at medium, long, and close range? Not to mention HO took the biggest hit, being good in only close combat or only good at ranged combat. Positions worked because they were flexible to enough to do other things. A HO could switch between outside combat and inside combat whenever they needed to because they had 5 weapons. A capper could go chase because he still had the neccesary tools to do so. Hirez wants people to do one thing, and one thing only so that people buy more loadouts. And anyone who conflicts with their vision gets banned. Heck they even deleted the TA meme thread which wasn't harming anything. | ||
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Muey
Finland149 Posts
That's about the only good thing this game has going for it in comparsion to T:V though. But that's really only half the deal because the overall physics need a ton of work. There's a severe lack of jetpack power, weak-ass disc jumps, air control without using jets (ezmode on top of ezmode), super handbraking (disengaging ski mode grinds you to a total halt almost akin to a T2 deadstop) and LOL As far as loadouts and specialization goes, I think ZP laid it down pretty well why super niche roles just don't work in Tribes on the T:A forums, so I'll just quote him here; Lets consider T:A as a new game here for the sake of argument: T:A still uses what we can term as "Tribes-style movement." Tribes style movement includes much higher speeds, the idea of chasing at much higher speeds, and a very pronounced aerial movement. This sort of movement system on a base theoretic level does not mix with a highly specialized class system that's specialized to the point of hurting general combat ability. Contrary to the impression you may be getting from the forums, there was specialization in earlier titles. It just worked on one key concept: Specialization was ON TOP OF normal combat ability, not IN PLACE OF. Meaning, all players had the tools to deal with players in most states they could be in (flying, high speed, ground, low speed, indoors, whatever). However, they usually had an additional specialized role based upon whatever luxury weapon or pack they went out with.Examples: Light with, Disc, CG, Laser, Energy pack vs Disc CG, Grenade, Shield pack Both of the above loadouts have exceptional general combat granted from the disk and cg. They can deal with enemies regardless of speed and aerial position. However, the specialization between the two of them gives them significant advantages in certain roles. The light which has a laser is much better at dealing with very long range enemies, or enemies that are quickly flying away. This light also is much better at chasing due to increased energy, and has an easier time getting up to places. The light which has a grenade launcher and shield pack has an edge in 1v1 combat. It also has an edge in any sort of indoor combat, in where the area DPS of the grenade launcher and the mitigation of the shield pack help it out tremendously. Of the two loadouts above, neither is "better" than the other, nor a "golden combination." There's areas in where each have their advantages. However, NEITHER LOADOUT IS GIMPED. Both loadouts have very strong general combat abilities due to the strength and versatility of the disk and cg respectively. Meaning that there's no real area in where either loadout feels helpless against another - even when under less than ideal terms. If Hi-Rez went down the route of more packs, and more luxury weapon choices, they could have abundant specialization within the game, while still keeping people well-equipped to fight in wherever Tribes-style movement brings them. | ||
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Tachion
Canada8573 Posts
On October 17 2011 13:02 Razith wrote: Can't say much but this isn't what they're using. Fallen Empires: Legions uses this concept and its nothing like what T:A is using thankfully. T:A skiing is actually awesome, its other things that need tweaking for movement, which should have everyone excited because they are very minor. Bowls / riding curvatures isn't a problem in T:A like it was in T:V. A lot of things in this thread are wrong. There is a huge gap between how skiing actually works and how people are guessing how it works based off the minimal information they receive. HUGE gaps. Until you play it yourself, you can't really comment on it at all. I have yet to play the beta, though I do keep in close communication with those who do, and the response was that it was indeed incredibly similar to T:V skiing. There seems to be a difference of opinion or experience more so than misinformation. I will certainly be happy if you turn out to be right though. | ||
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Razith
Canada431 Posts
On October 17 2011 15:32 Muey wrote: Yeah, the skiing has been improved from T:V and offers more control when on the ground. Can't say I'm really a fan of the current implantation compared to the traditional mechanic, but it's a step in the right direction when you contrast with T:V. That's about the only good thing this game has going for it in comparsion to T:V though. But that's really only half the deal because the overall physics need a ton of work. There's a severe lack of jetpack power, weak-ass disc jumps, air control without using jets (ezmode on top of ezmode), super handbraking (disengaging ski mode grinds you to a total halt almost akin to a T2 deadstop) and LOL The skiing mechanics seem to be fine though; like you said its the other things factored in that change it. Simply skiing down hills, around bowls, on flat land etc. works great and is fine; what is there that you don't like about it?. I don't know what could be changed to skiing specifically itself. Its the other factors combined with skiing which seems to create the lackluster movement. Jetting is weak as it runs out of energy too fast and caps acceleration lower than light + energy pack, restricting the height gained through jetting. This combined with a low terminal velocity in free fall makes it hard to build up speed. However, the actual skiing isn't bad. If they were to increase the acceleration slightly and give a little more energy for classes with energy pack equivalent to gain more distance / height through jetting, and allow us to build up a little more speed in free fall through a higher acceleration, the movement in T:A would be great. And most of those changes are simple coefficient changes, unlike skiing which needs to be built. I do agree though with the movement in the air w/o jetting and the abrupt stopping when not skiing should be fixed though. Not sure about disc jumping yet.. But they've stated lots that a lot of work they've done is to simply get skiing working on the unreal engine. I interpret this as just the sliding down and around terrain; not the actual jetting and overall movement. I think that's something they would leave to tweak in beta. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
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Thereisnosaurus
Australia1822 Posts
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Coriolis
United States1152 Posts
On October 18 2011 00:33 Thereisnosaurus wrote: aw yeah oldschool spinfusor ho. Was hoping they'd have that shit in at launch ^^ Yeah but the heavy spinfusor is vertical like the TV beta spinfusor.... | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On October 18 2011 07:20 Coriolis wrote: Yeah but the heavy spinfusor is vertical like the TV beta spinfusor.... Hah! Yeah, I forgot about the vertical spinfusor. Man, what an uproar that caused when it was first revealed. | ||
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