On December 02 2011 06:01 Airact wrote: This game definitely makes me realize how bad I'm at it. That combined with all the Tier4 people coming to just troll around when I'm trying to learn how to play make me frustrated as hell from time to time.
I started QL just now and well... Duels aren't easy. Fun as hell, but definitely not easy.
Some hopefully not-map-specific questions(If you need a map to base on, let's say Blood Run as that's where I have played the most duels in):
How should I play when I have the advantage g.e. when I get a frag and stabilize? What about when the exact opposite happens and I have a disadvantage(Big enough for me to not rush in for a frag right after spawn)?
When you get a frag your first priority should be to get the important power ups under your control if you haven't already (mega health and red/yellow armors). Next you should just try to deny your opponent any breathing room you can by not letting them get weapons (most people always go for the rocket launcher or lightning gun first, depending on where they spawn). When you have map control and the health/armor advantage you just have to predict and try to deny your opponent the best you can and get as big of a frag lead as you can while you have that advantage.
When you are at a disadvantage, you should be trying to figure out the timing of either mega (preferably) or red armor, or if you can both. Sometimes it might even be worth dying once to get a timing on either. Once you have the time of one of the important power ups, you have to play very sneaky and collect all the shards and yellow armors to try and build a respectable stack so you can challenge for the next major power up. Don't risk dying for a yellow armor if you know your opponent is near. Also, don't engage in any close battles when you are understacked, it almost always ends in your death. Just keep your distance and try to land rails and prediction rockets until you can fight for a major power up and try to take back control.
Lastly, in terms of practice, I highly recommend adding anyone who is even remotely close to your skill level to your friends list to practice with.
On December 02 2011 08:42 Obscure wrote: Lastly, in terms of practice, I highly recommend adding anyone who is even remotely close to your skill level to your friends list to practice with.
There are none and I'm not lying.
Quake isn't like SC2 where people can say "just learn to macro and you'll get to Diamond ezpz". No, you'll get destroyed by tier3 people(Comparable to Silver(maybe Gold, I'm not too sure about how bad I am)-Diamond league if we need SC2 terminology). I have had a person teach me the basics of mechanics like that I need to know where items spawn and when items spawn as well as how important aim is, but he hasn't even dipped into the strategy part even if I have asked and I need help regarding that.
In sc2 it was all about having a gameplan, like "I want to be ridiculously aggressive with low-tier units, take tons of expansions and when I have a lot of expansions, tech like mad and kill the opponent". When one had that, openers were picked and they changed according to maps and possibly spawns. Then one played with that strategy and adjusted his openers, transitions and timings with the strategy and gameplan in mind.
From what I've seen from pro demos and casts, people don't play the same. Some pros rely more on rockets where others use the rails or LG more. Their movements aren't the same either. Some play more passively where others might just hammer the opponents face in and engage even if they are way outstacked(Of course they don't just blindly run in, but it's still surprising how they just attack with like 100/75 against 150/150).
What should I consider when making a core to my play? Let's take Blood Run as an example again(I like the map a lot) as I'd like to know one map and get my thoughts and considerations right before moving to other maps on my own later.
If there isn't any clear strategy involved, I might look like an idiot but I'd rather look like an idiot than have my questions unanswered.
What should I consider when making a core to my play? Let's take Blood Run as an example again(I like the map a lot) as I'd like to know one map and get my thoughts and considerations right before moving to other maps on my own later.
Map knowledge is really important in QL. You better know every powerup/weapons/ammo boxes by heart if you wanna stand a chance against some1 who does.
Play against nightmare bots on the map and time items, it takes time to remember timing to the second but after a while you get a feel for the game and know the order in which the items will spawn so you dont have to time to the second at first. (Protip, try to keep a cycle on two armours : take RA then go pick YA, now at the next cycle do the same and you basically have two timings for the price of 1.)
It's likely youll get dominated by players who are in control of the map and have better aim than yourself. When you're in that spot, chill out, dont go running with no weapons and give away easy frags. Learn to play defensive with rockets in corridors/long range railing and place yourself between two major items after you are like 100/150.
it's hard to give advice because you could literally learn a map during warmup and beat tier 2 players if your aim was good enough.
you should basically focus on learning the maps and where the items spawn obviously. all the players have different strategies because they're based on their own aim, movement ability, timing ability etc, but they are all based on having items and doing X, and the opponent will be trying to deny that and force their own strategy on you.
for map control, timing isn't the only way to keep track of items. for example, you pick up red, and then run straight to yellow to pick that up. when you hit the red spawn again, you will know that the time it takes you to travel to yellow is when it will spawn. (which was basically stated above). basically, when you're dueling, duel to improve your timing. try to time one item the whole game until it becomes natural. even if you lose control of that item, try to keep a timing window of when it could spawn in your mind.
aiming is also important, try to work on it when you can't duel. CA, FFA, whatever, they will all help understand the weapons and which is optimal in which position.
Basically, when you die, you try hiding and getting all the good weapons (rocket launcher, lightning gun, rail gun). If the other player is good, he'll try controlling those too. Good alternatives are the shotgun (most popular weapon in TDM) and the plasma gun. Always make sure to pick up the grenade launcher as well, as it is a good weapon to guarantee a safe getaway. Other than that, try collecting as many yellow armors as possible while your opponent is running the red armor/megahealth, engage when you feel confident. When you don't, try to hide as good as possible and run when you become aware of your opponent close to you. A chasing opponent is an easy target. Because of this, never chase an opponent, unless you are absolutely sure that you can kill him. Else, go after items after doing damage. At those moments you get a good chance at overtaking mega/red.
Sound plays a big part in QL as well. You can hide your footsteps by pressing the walk key (shift by default) or just plain stopping. Listen for your opponent. Try to ambush him.
If your aim is not your strongest point, practice map control and learn to use rockets, grenades, plasma and the shotgun to the best of your capabilities (I suck with the railgun, try to use it as little as possible :p ...I do shoot better with rail when I put my mouse to low low sensitivity (normally I play at a fairly high sens))
Also, learn which weapon you should be using at every situation and learn when you can and should switch weapons.
Airact, any tips like that when you're just starting out are fairly pointless. Learn how the game works by playing shitloads of FFAs and CAs with people that you can kill before going into super competitive mode. "Mechanics" in Quake are 200 times more important than "game plan". It's all about mechanics, technique, timing, and practice practice practice. In tournaments, other things come into play because you can predict who your opponent is and how they play, and then play to counter that, but again mechanics come first. Knowing exactly what to do is useless if you can't execute it near perfectly.
I don't think that playing vs bots is a good way to learn timings and such. I play bots now and again and i often notice that they don't even bother picking up items. This is especially true if it requires a jump to reach (such as RA on bloodrun). Sure, if you want to just run around and pick them up yourself, then learn to time in your head, that's fine, but bots don't really help at all.
They also aren't too great for training your aim, because they move in really bizarre ways that no real player would ever use and they move round the map incredibly slowly (no bhopping whatsoever).
On December 05 2011 03:49 tl4life wrote: Map knowledge is really important in QL. You better know every powerup/weapons/ammo boxes by heart if you wanna stand a chance against some1 who does.
tbh I don't think knowing where items are by heart classifies as map knowledge. it's just like the tip of the iceberg of map knowledge.
map knowledge :
knowing where your opponent is by sound. knowing where and when to shoot rockets predictably and to have a reasonable chance to hit him. having a decent idea of how much time you need to go through important items and/or places on the map knowing the time to go through different permutations of items knowing where your opponent is going to be if he wants to fuck you up, and how to fuck him back knowing where on the map you can be agressive, and where you can be defensive knowing how to be unpredictable on the map
On December 05 2011 03:49 tl4life wrote: Map knowledge is really important in QL. You better know every powerup/weapons/ammo boxes by heart if you wanna stand a chance against some1 who does.
tbh I don't think knowing where items are by heart classifies as map knowledge. it's just like the tip of the iceberg of map knowledge.
map knowledge :
knowing where your opponent is by sound. knowing where and when to shoot rockets predictably and to have a reasonable chance to hit him. having a decent idea of how much time you need to go through important items and/or places on the map knowing the time to go through different permutations of items knowing where your opponent is going to be if he wants to fuck you up, and how to fuck him back knowing where on the map you can be agressive, and where you can be defensive knowing how to be unpredictable on the map
This covers it pretty well. Problem with QL is the shitty infrastructure... you can't just join a game and expect your opponent to be around the same level as you. Sure there are tiers and such but they don't honestly mean _that_ much. Playing better opponents is good practice but if your opponent is much better than you then you just die instantly and can't really do anything which kinda defeats the purpose. CA is bad practice for duel, you might get better aim with rl,rg and lg but you get bad habits out of it that actually hurt you in DM format. There are some tier4+ CA players that can't even get a single frag against me in a duel. Skill differences are insane in this game i'd dare to say even much higher than in sc2.
edit. I guess playing CA doesn't really hurt your gameplay if you're new to the game Learning how to aim, move fast around the map and predict enemy movement etc helps a lot.
And then there is the issue of actually finding a server with players of your skill, then have some tier 4+ join, which bumps up the server level, causing an influx of high tier players, basically messing up the already fragile balance
On December 05 2011 22:42 Fryght wrote: And then there is the issue of actually finding a server with players of your skill, then have some tier 4+ join, which bumps up the server level, causing an influx of high tier players, basically messing up the already fragile balance
Right, the tier system in QL is pretty flawed. Another problem is that, in a way, it's TOO adaptive.
For example, I play a game with my friend who is the same skill level as me, pretty much. Once in a while i'll beat him by quite a lot of frags on my better map because sometimes you just get lucky, right? Now, when i leave that game, the games that are ranked as "same level" are actually way above my actual skill, simply because i won my last game fairly comfortably. A ladder system like SC2 should be #1 priority for QL's future imo.
On December 02 2011 08:42 Obscure wrote: Lastly, in terms of practice, I highly recommend adding anyone who is even remotely close to your skill level to your friends list to practice with.
If there isn't any clear strategy involved, I might look like an idiot but I'd rather look like an idiot than have my questions unanswered.
This is just my opinion, but one of the most beautiful things about Quake is that there is no clear cut strategy for winning. You can watch pro demos and get a few ideas on angles and routes for certain maps, but it doesn't always directly apply to your game because there are so many variables. And you certainly can't just decide to aim like a pro. Unlike some other games where you can watch top tier players play and have a pretty good idea of what you have to do to win (although you won't be able to execute like them) Quake is a lot more freestyle and personal. You have to figure out what your strengths and weaknesses are.
For instance, I'm not the greatest with a rocket launcher (depth perception problem or something ) but I have a very good rail and above average LG that I can win with. Also, you may not be able to time two or more items, so maybe you only play by timing the mega health and going on instinct with the armors. All the pros have different styles. Some are more aim heavy (strenx, toxjq) others are more tactical and rely on controlling the map and powerups (Rapha, Cooller) and then there are the combat expects who always have the right gun out for the situation and have good positioning/movement (Cypher, Avek). Of course at the elite level all of these traits mix with the players, but generally their styles are evident.
The only real advice I could give is to just play. Your objective is to have more frags than your opponent when the 10 minutes is up. How do you do that? Have to find out.
And if there really are no players at your skill level, only thing I can say is to try to get a friend from another game or rl to play with you, otherwise you are going to have to rough it out against a very wide range of skilled players to improve.
On December 02 2011 08:42 Obscure wrote: Lastly, in terms of practice, I highly recommend adding anyone who is even remotely close to your skill level to your friends list to practice with.
If there isn't any clear strategy involved, I might look like an idiot but I'd rather look like an idiot than have my questions unanswered.
This is just my opinion, but one of the most beautiful things about Quake is that there is no clear cut strategy for winning. You can watch pro demos and get a few ideas on angles and routes for certain maps, but it doesn't always directly apply to your game because there are so many variables. And you certainly can't just decide to aim like a pro. Unlike some other games where you can watch top tier players play and have a pretty good idea of what you have to do to win (although you won't be able to execute like them) Quake is a lot more freestyle and personal. You have to figure out what your strengths and weaknesses are.
For instance, I'm not the greatest with a rocket launcher (depth perception problem or something ) but I have a very good rail and above average LG that I can win with. Also, you may not be able to time two or more items, so maybe you only play by timing the mega health and going on instinct with the armors. All the pros have different styles. Some are more aim heavy (strenx, toxjq) others are more tactical and rely on controlling the map and powerups (Rapha, Cooller) and then there are the combat expects who always have the right gun out for the situation and have good positioning/movement (Cypher, Avek). Of course at the elite level all of these traits mix with the players, but generally their styles are evident.
The only real advice I could give is to just play. Your objective is to have more frags than your opponent when the 10 minutes is up. How do you do that? Have to find out.
And if there really are no players at your skill level, only thing I can say is to try to get a friend from another game or rl to play with you, otherwise you are going to have to rough it out against a very wide range of skilled players to improve.
I always preferred watching more aggressive play. In the days of Q2, I remember the demos of Makavelli vs Shub on dm1 were really really popular and were classified as one of the best games played at the time. I preferred watching Blue vs Makavelli. Blue was so godly. He was a joy to watch in the CPL days of q3a, so aggressive and skilled <3.
On December 05 2011 22:42 Fryght wrote: And then there is the issue of actually finding a server with players of your skill, then have some tier 4+ join, which bumps up the server level, causing an influx of high tier players, basically messing up the already fragile balance
Right, the tier system in QL is pretty flawed. Another problem is that, in a way, it's TOO adaptive.
For example, I play a game with my friend who is the same skill level as me, pretty much. Once in a while i'll beat him by quite a lot of frags on my better map because sometimes you just get lucky, right? Now, when i leave that game, the games that are ranked as "same level" are actually way above my actual skill, simply because i won my last game fairly comfortably. A ladder system like SC2 should be #1 priority for QL's future imo.
Or, for example, what has happened to me a few times.....here's how it goes. I joined a "green" game, equal skill, right as it's ending. I am a high tier 4 in ctf. All good players leave, a few bad ones stay. Previously tier 4 server is now tier 3, some 2's join, dropping it down to where even tier 1s can get in. Game starts, I go 50-2 (yes, seriously, those are the scores a comparatively bad tier 4 can put up on tier 2s with EASE, not even really trying), with 60% lg accuracy and 80% rail, with 3 flag caps, 30 something flag defenses, 2 assists. Get called a cheater, people threaten to report me, I even have two guys speccing me and calling out "blatant wall hacks", "rofl aimbot" etc. This has happened multiple times. At first I felt good about it, like, holy cow, I just RAPED that tier 4 server. Then you leave, and can't even find the same sever, because it's too far below your level. Basically, what I described is, "why people hate Quake Live 101".
If anyone is interested in trying out some Quakeworld 4v4 tdm, the fastest/hardest fps ever made, there's a newb-friendly tourney with fair teams about to start. Read more here!
I've recently been putting in some thought into helping people with quakelive(people being new people).
So I'm trying to make a series of videos that help people become a better gamer! (rip off line from Day9, I know rite? ^^)
Anyways, lemmie know what you think of my first video, I'm contemplating on adding step by step commentary to explain better on what i'm trying to teach as well as having special guests come up on certain episodes. If you think so, let me know, add me on quakelive or leave a comment on the video ^^ really wanna try and help the community get bigger ^^
On December 08 2011 14:49 erickeK wrote: Hey guys, experienced dueler 'erickeK' here ^^
I've recently been putting in some thought into helping people with quakelive(people being new people).
So I'm trying to make a series of videos that help people become a better gamer! (rip off line from Day9, I know rite? ^^)
Anyways, lemmie know what you think of my first video, I'm contemplating on adding step by step commentary to explain better on what i'm trying to teach as well as having special guests come up on certain episodes. If you think so, let me know, add me on quakelive or leave a comment on the video ^^ really wanna try and help the community get bigger ^^
some of the jump (b2r, double rocket, plasma climb) are way to advanced for beginners. i think you should introduce shooting angles on maps and some routes (how to maintain map control if leading, or nice defensive positions)
EPT
) but I have a very good rail and above average LG that I can win with. Also, you may not be able to time two or more items, so maybe you only play by timing the mega health and going on instinct with the armors. All the pros have different styles. Some are more aim heavy (strenx, toxjq) others are more tactical and rely on controlling the map and powerups (Rapha, Cooller) and then there are the combat expects who always have the right gun out for the situation and have good positioning/movement (Cypher, Avek). Of course at the elite level all of these traits mix with the players, but generally their styles are evident.
