EPTAttention WoW players! - Page 18
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SayaSP
Laos5494 Posts
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DrywMz
United States394 Posts
On March 04 2010 09:41 lilsusie wrote: I apologize for being MIA these last few days, I'm actually WORKING at work. LOL. It's no big deal, I can find someone else to run through Black Morass.... + Show Spoiler + ._. | ||
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MeriaDoKk
Chile1726 Posts
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ShoCkeyy
7815 Posts
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SnowFantasy
4173 Posts
On March 04 2010 11:59 DrywMz wrote: It's no big deal, I can find someone else to run through Black Morass.... + Show Spoiler + ._. sup | ||
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Zurles
United Kingdom1659 Posts
Or just do it, then look back and think, damn... I should have listened to Zurles. Though if you're already hooked go ahead with midian of course, That is all. | ||
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duckett
United States589 Posts
On March 04 2010 12:37 Zurles wrote: To anyone on the verge of buying wow and weighing up the options, DON'T DO IT. why? i suppose there are a bunch of metagame issues at the moment but that will be improved with cata around the corner. and i've played it before (to some extent >.>) and it seems like with a good guild it would be really fun. | ||
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Inschato
Canada1349 Posts
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On March 03 2010 00:26 iSiN wrote: You have to define what difficulty is. Some mechanics are harder, but there's more tools and more safety nets available. Things like TPS don't exist anymore, and there was no burndown equivalent for Heroism/BL. I'm not sure healers even have mana problems anymore, they weren't when I returned in WotLK. There's also PTR to work out the details of most bosses before they go live. Also remember that executing a fight is different than learning and coordinating it before anyone else. From what I've heard, the raw mechanics of Yogg were harder than anything else, but that doesn't include a lot of different variables.KT wasn't even the hardest fight in Naxx 60...It was cake even compared to Sapphiron and Sapph was cake next to 4hm. I think you're the one in this thread trolling. We knew the mechanics of 4H early on and they were easy to pull off if you weren't an idiot, the problem is getting 8 tanks and 35+ non-idiots. Same goes for Sapphiron, except you had resistance and mana pools as a limit instead of tanks. We had no idea what was happening on KT and Gothik until we actually went through it slowly, and even though idiots could die and you'd still make it, the critical components had to play exceptionally well. 4HM might have been harder for guilds, but on the individual level it was a relatively simple fight. C'thun was ridiculous to learn, but once you did it was only hard because of the retard check. As far as retard checks go, pre-nerf Gruul is there too if you didn't carry over T3 gear or get the bugged instadeath version. Hell, even Patchwerk was really difficult before we knew what to do. No one actually believed it was a straight up DPS fight until the first people started getting him to berserk, and things like fire mages were few and far between. I honestly don't know anyone who was on the cutting edge in Naxx/BC that really still is, so unless you can find me the people that didn't get the luxury of Bosskillers/videos in their kills, I don't think you can make a fair comparison. | ||
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ThePhan2m
Norway2751 Posts
Tho I havent played WoW for 10 months (priests havent changed that much) | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
Check the world/region firsts, those guilds do not get the luxury of vids, although they do get the luxury of PTR (up to a certain point), but after the shitfest that was Sunwell/Mt. Hyjal, I rather they test it out on PTR. 4HM is/was hard namely because of the tank switching, no fight up until that required you to switch up that much. Naxx40 in general released a lot of new mechanics at the time that players didn't expect Blizzard would. And your retard check argument isn't as valid as you think. Think about it, if you were to replace a geared member of your core raiders in Vanilla/early BC, there was a very small pool of talented players (if any at all) that were attuned, then there was a very small pool (if any at all) that were geared. Stacked both or either of those on the resistance gear (important for some classes), then you were for better or worse stuck with them. Not to mention the shitfest that was getting pre-raid gear. So basically then you were stuck with retards, but now it's much easier to both gear and find players who could be replaced. Yes there are still retards, but the pool is much larger and much more accessible. | ||
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On March 06 2010 00:38 Judicator wrote: Well, that's what I'm saying. When people here say "I've done Naxx 40 and Yogg0," my immediate guess is they did Naxx40 and Yogg0 largely with the help of other guilds. When I think about whether an encounter is hard, I think about it in terms of the bleeding edge guild. For me, the game was about solving puzzles and developing a strategy.Check the world/region firsts, those guilds do not get the luxury of vids, although they do get the luxury of PTR (up to a certain point), but after the shitfest that was Sunwell/Mt. Hyjal, I rather they test it out on PTR. What I'm saying is that I don't have any point of comparison between bleeding edge content back then and bleeding edge content today, because most people I knew quit, went casual or went for PvP. I will say that the people I know in DV had lighter schedules than they used to (which is why it's unfair to measure difficulty in days to complete, plus the shorter reset times.) And the healers I've talked to said there's really no difference between a great healer and an average one, outside of PvP. The PTR is a mixed bag. On one hand, it makes progression a lot faster (we already understood most of Hyjal before it came out) which I think is a bad thing, but you've also got crap Blizzard just didn't think about properly because their devs didn't get it. 4HM is/was hard namely because of the tank switching, no fight up until that required you to switch up that much. Naxx40 in general released a lot of new mechanics at the time that players didn't expect Blizzard would. It wasn't actually that hard for a tank to do. Once they learned it and the timing, they could repeat their job 10/10 times easily. For most guilds, 4HM was hard because they didn't have enough tanks and their tanks sucked. There was that, and actually learning how the rotations should work. Needless to say, the fight was significantly, significantly easier for Alliance than Horde.And your retard check argument isn't as valid as you think. Think about it, if you were to replace a geared member of your core raiders in Vanilla/early BC, there was a very small pool of talented players (if any at all) that were attuned, then there was a very small pool (if any at all) that were geared. Stacked both or either of those on the resistance gear (important for some classes), then you were for better or worse stuck with them. Not to mention the shitfest that was getting pre-raid gear. So basically then you were stuck with retards, but now it's much easier to both gear and find players who could be replaced. Yes there are still retards, but the pool is much larger and much more accessible. I think that's kind of what I'm saying. Even though we had 50~ people with great gear, there were still enough idiots to cause problems. 4HM was an encounter that required no one to play exceptionally. No one. It required everyone to play decently. KT, you could make it through with a greater number of idiots, but the important people had harder jobs than the jobs present in 4HM. Same with Gothik, only to a greater degree. Less retard checks is definitely a good thing.I don't doubt that Yogg0 is the most technical fight in the game, but I don't know if that constitutes overall difficulty, especially when you have stuff like StratFu guiding you; we were literally programming RDX during raids, between attempts. What makes me skeptical about people comparing Yogg0 to C'thun to 4HM is that those are the only examples they're giving, which makes me think they weren't in a great guild. It sounds elitist and it is, but anyone in a great guild should remember that for a guild, learning Gothik was probably #1/2 for Naxx40 difficulty, pre-nerf Vashj was damn near impossible, Maexxna took a while, pre-nerf Gruul/Magtheridon and even Hydross were hard. Rag, Chromag, etc. There were more artificial gates back then (Vael, Luci) but can you imagine what Razorgore was like the first time people stepped into it? I definitely don't consider Sapph on that list and I probably wouldn't put 4HM up there either, as a truly difficult fight. IMO, KT/Gothik were technically more difficult fights than 4HM/Sapph, but those two were gateway fights that were rough because of artificial restrictions like gear, class comp and shamans. In terms of satisfaction, I've heard that C'thun, Naxx and M'uru are at the top of the list for best encounters, with really only Mimi making it from WotLK, but again, I haven't talked to anyone that was one of the first to do Naxx and one of the first to do Ulduar. There's no doubt it's a better overall game now and I do believe people that say Yogg0 was harder than C'thun for them, I just don't know if they did them at their hardest state. | ||
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Felhunter
Belgium12 Posts
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wishbones
Canada2600 Posts
Question marks no longer represent a question in a sentence, but rather the start of a new and exciting quest1! & vice versa for ! g'day! | ||
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Torenhire
United States11681 Posts
On March 06 2010 00:38 Judicator wrote: Check the world/region firsts, those guilds do not get the luxury of vids, although they do get the luxury of PTR (up to a certain point), but after the shitfest that was Sunwell/Mt. Hyjal, I rather they test it out on PTR. We WERE the region first... lol. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7318291844381976331# years and years ago.. hahaha. Good times.... | ||
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LaSt)ChAnCe
United States2179 Posts
On March 06 2010 08:52 Torenhire wrote: We WERE the region first... lol. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7318291844381976331# years and years ago.. hahaha. Good times.... WTB more heal rank 2 spam please. wait, i see shadow priest(s), is that post 2.0? | ||
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iSiN
United States1075 Posts
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On March 06 2010 09:02 LaSt)ChAnCe wrote: WTB more heal rank 2 spam please. wait, i see shadow priest(s), is that post 2.0? And the felguard... | ||
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Niton
United States2395 Posts
On March 06 2010 03:01 Jibba wrote:IMO, KT/Gothik were technically more difficult fights than 4HM/Sapph, but those two were gateway fights that were rough because of artificial restrictions like gear, class comp and shamans. In terms of satisfaction, I've heard that C'thun, Naxx and M'uru are at the top of the list for best encounters, with really only Mimi making it from WotLK, but again, I haven't talked to anyone that was one of the first to do Naxx and one of the first to do Ulduar. There's no doubt it's a better overall game now and I do believe people that say Yogg0 was harder than C'thun for them, I just don't know if they did them at their hardest state. I used to raid with a bunch of people who met that criteria, and i've tanked Sunwell, Lol80Naxx/Maly/Sarth, and Ulduar (including Yogg+0) when they were the 'progression' content. Originally a lot of them believed that the newer content wasn't as hard as it used to be, through M'uru changed a few peoples' minds, and by the end of Ulduar, most of them agreed that the newer content was much tighter tuned than C'thun/Naxx. As I had it put to me once, "I used to hate 25-mans, but really, they're just 40-mans except without the 15 idiots we used to carry". Back in Naxx, you could literally kill a boss with a group of players dead in the corner if you had to - there's no way you could 22-man the 'hard-mode' bosses of today for your first kill. A big part of the change is that there is a larger percentage of the playerbase who simply "gets" how to play their class. I hear tales from all of the people I know who raided in early vanilla about their retarded players - the ones who were relegated to out of combat rez duty, or died 5 times on one C'thun kill, or simply couldn't figure out how to not dispel themselves on a fight like Grobbulus. These players would never cut it in today's raiding environment. Yogg is the most technical fight i've ever done.. but he's not the hardest. He was all about perfect organization, with any sort of variance among the 12 or so "important" players causing a wipe. Once we had our strategy down and people knew how they had to go about things though, we killed him fairly comfortably, nerves aside. Tanking that fight was ridiculous, and i'd really love to see fights where DPS are challenged in that way. The hardest fight i've ever done without a doubt was M'uru v1.1, the version without spell pushback. That fight, if anyone died and they weren't up within 5 seconds, you wiped unless you were 80 seconds into Phase 2 already. The coordination required was decently behind what Yogg's was, but still quite heavy, and the benchmarks for every single player in the raid were incredibly high. By all accounts i've heard, C'thun was not particularly difficult once you knew the fight - the same people would always die to the same things, but you'd kill him anyways once he was on farm. Until M'uru got nerfed, he required near-perfect play out of your entire raid every week. I really think WoW has made great strides forward in raw encounter difficulty, but I don't think they could legitimately design another fight at his level because of the sheer optimization required to beat him. | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
On March 06 2010 08:52 Torenhire wrote: We WERE the region first... lol. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7318291844381976331# years and years ago.. hahaha. Good times.... When I say region, I don't mean server. Near the end of Naxx for the first wave of guilds clearing it, guilds were already talking and asking as well as posting detailed strats. And that video as others have pointed out is pretty sketch... Yeah Jibba, I guess we both agree, it is hard to make comparisons, the game is very different for better or worse. | ||
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