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On March 28 2015 16:41 kanchome wrote:Show nested quote + 2 small clashs are not enough to say that Sabo is definently admiral tier especially since neither of them were true drawn out 1v1 with both sides pulling out all the stops You're right 2 small clashes aren't enough to definitely put Sabo in any tier but there's a lot of inferring you can do which is what Oda constantly does rather than blatently say X>Y. We can surmise that Sabo=Ace pre timeskip or if anything Sabo>Ace. (Oda making the mistaking of introducing haki after Ace was introduced). Dragon is most likely stronger individually than any of the admirals inferring 2 hand in command is at the very least between vice admiral-admiral level. Without the fire fruit I doubt Sabo would be admiral level for the same reason all of the admirals would be considerably weaker without their fruit powers.(There's very few top tier like whitebeard who would still remain top tier without their fruit powers.). Top tier without fruit powers are just to introduce variety into the equation when it's pretty clear that shanks or mihawk with even a mediocre fruit would put them at the top without peer. Sabo who was probably somewhere between vice admiral - admiral tier before the fruit has to become exponetially stronger for the same reason luffy with gomu fruit is way way stronger than luffy with just haki. Exactly how much Sabo jumped in tier isn't clear but at the very least it puts him at par with the average admiral. If you deny Sabo isn't admiral tier you are either saying Sabo pre fruit wasn't even vice admiral tier (dubious considering his position in the rebellion army) or mastery of a useful fruit doesn't improve ones combat ability by a huge factor. You only need to look at current luffy to see what kind of difference luffy would have without fruit powers to see how much Sabo would have gained with his Logia fruit(which is far more useful).
literally everything you said is pure assumption
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On March 28 2015 22:56 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2015 16:41 kanchome wrote: 2 small clashs are not enough to say that Sabo is definently admiral tier especially since neither of them were true drawn out 1v1 with both sides pulling out all the stops You're right 2 small clashes aren't enough to definitely put Sabo in any tier but there's a lot of inferring you can do which is what Oda constantly does rather than blatently say X>Y. We can surmise that Sabo=Ace pre timeskip or if anything Sabo>Ace. (Oda making the mistaking of introducing haki after Ace was introduced). Dragon is most likely stronger individually than any of the admirals inferring 2 hand in command is at the very least between vice admiral-admiral level. Without the fire fruit I doubt Sabo would be admiral level for the same reason all of the admirals would be considerably weaker without their fruit powers.(There's very few top tier like whitebeard who would still remain top tier without their fruit powers.). Top tier without fruit powers are just to introduce variety into the equation when it's pretty clear that shanks or mihawk with even a mediocre fruit would put them at the top without peer. Sabo who was probably somewhere between vice admiral - admiral tier before the fruit has to become exponetially stronger for the same reason luffy with gomu fruit is way way stronger than luffy with just haki. Exactly how much Sabo jumped in tier isn't clear but at the very least it puts him at par with the average admiral. If you deny Sabo isn't admiral tier you are either saying Sabo pre fruit wasn't even vice admiral tier (dubious considering his position in the rebellion army) or mastery of a useful fruit doesn't improve ones combat ability by a huge factor. You only need to look at current luffy to see what kind of difference luffy would have without fruit powers to see how much Sabo would have gained with his Logia fruit(which is far more useful). literally everything you said is pure assumption
out of all people out there you are the one who saying this. I dont even know what to say l o l.
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On March 28 2015 23:40 Mensol wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2015 22:56 Forikorder wrote:On March 28 2015 16:41 kanchome wrote: 2 small clashs are not enough to say that Sabo is definently admiral tier especially since neither of them were true drawn out 1v1 with both sides pulling out all the stops You're right 2 small clashes aren't enough to definitely put Sabo in any tier but there's a lot of inferring you can do which is what Oda constantly does rather than blatently say X>Y. We can surmise that Sabo=Ace pre timeskip or if anything Sabo>Ace. (Oda making the mistaking of introducing haki after Ace was introduced). Dragon is most likely stronger individually than any of the admirals inferring 2 hand in command is at the very least between vice admiral-admiral level. Without the fire fruit I doubt Sabo would be admiral level for the same reason all of the admirals would be considerably weaker without their fruit powers.(There's very few top tier like whitebeard who would still remain top tier without their fruit powers.). Top tier without fruit powers are just to introduce variety into the equation when it's pretty clear that shanks or mihawk with even a mediocre fruit would put them at the top without peer. Sabo who was probably somewhere between vice admiral - admiral tier before the fruit has to become exponetially stronger for the same reason luffy with gomu fruit is way way stronger than luffy with just haki. Exactly how much Sabo jumped in tier isn't clear but at the very least it puts him at par with the average admiral. If you deny Sabo isn't admiral tier you are either saying Sabo pre fruit wasn't even vice admiral tier (dubious considering his position in the rebellion army) or mastery of a useful fruit doesn't improve ones combat ability by a huge factor. You only need to look at current luffy to see what kind of difference luffy would have without fruit powers to see how much Sabo would have gained with his Logia fruit(which is far more useful). literally everything you said is pure assumption out of all people out there you are the one who saying this. I dont even know what to say l o l.
when i make an assumption i say its an assumption i dont say my assumptions are fact
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At least we can all agree that if it was between Ace and Sabo, everyone would want Sabo to die and Ace to survive.
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I knew you would say something about them being unfinished fights, but how was his fight vs Bastile a play fight? Sabo broke Bastile's weapon, his mask then burninated him, it was complete domination. Even had included some a qualifier like "they needed to be full fights" you it would still be literally wrong.
Though I don't see why you're so doubtful of Sabo's strength when everything points to him being strong. The brief clashes vs extremely strong fighters Sabo always came out ahead except vs Fujitora. Sabo destroyed the ring barehanded and later burned a hole all the way to the toy factory with his first time using his DF. His title is 2nd in command of the Revolutionary army and he is step brother to Ace and Luffy.
On March 29 2015 01:25 Hyperbola wrote:
At least we can all agree that if it was between Ace and Sabo, everyone would want Sabo to die and Ace to survive.
Sure we haven't seen as much of Sabo as the other two so we care less about him, but his flashback story was enough for most fans to care about him. Go back to when Sabo was revealed alive and the explosion of happy fan reactions.
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On March 29 2015 01:52 BlackMagister wrote:I knew you would say something about them being unfinished fights, but how was his fight vs Bastile a play fight? Sabo broke Bastile's weapon, his mask then burninated him, it was complete domination. Even had included some a qualifier like "they needed to be full fights" you it would still be literally wrong. Though I don't see why you're so doubtful of Sabo's strength when everything points to him being strong. The brief clashes vs extremely strong fighters Sabo always came out ahead except vs Fujitora. Sabo destroyed the ring barehanded and later burned a hole all the way to the toy factory with his first time using his DF. His title is 2nd in command of the Revolutionary army and he is step brother to Ace and Luffy. Show nested quote +On March 29 2015 01:25 Hyperbola wrote:
At least we can all agree that if it was between Ace and Sabo, everyone would want Sabo to die and Ace to survive. Sure we haven't seen as much of Sabo as the other two so we care less about him, but his flashback story was enough for most fans to care about him. Go back to when Sabo was revealed alive and the explosion of happy fan reactions.
vice admirals arent exactly top tier though, im pretty sure Luffy could plow then easily as well so hes not really evidence to show that Sabo is admiral tier
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On March 29 2015 02:05 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2015 01:52 BlackMagister wrote:I knew you would say something about them being unfinished fights, but how was his fight vs Bastile a play fight? Sabo broke Bastile's weapon, his mask then burninated him, it was complete domination. Even had included some a qualifier like "they needed to be full fights" you it would still be literally wrong. Though I don't see why you're so doubtful of Sabo's strength when everything points to him being strong. The brief clashes vs extremely strong fighters Sabo always came out ahead except vs Fujitora. Sabo destroyed the ring barehanded and later burned a hole all the way to the toy factory with his first time using his DF. His title is 2nd in command of the Revolutionary army and he is step brother to Ace and Luffy. On March 29 2015 01:25 Hyperbola wrote:
At least we can all agree that if it was between Ace and Sabo, everyone would want Sabo to die and Ace to survive. Sure we haven't seen as much of Sabo as the other two so we care less about him, but his flashback story was enough for most fans to care about him. Go back to when Sabo was revealed alive and the explosion of happy fan reactions. vice admirals arent exactly top tier though, im pretty sure Luffy could plow then easily as well so hes not really evidence to show that Sabo is admiral tier
Tell that to Smoker and Vergo
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On March 29 2015 02:05 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2015 01:52 BlackMagister wrote:I knew you would say something about them being unfinished fights, but how was his fight vs Bastile a play fight? Sabo broke Bastile's weapon, his mask then burninated him, it was complete domination. Even had included some a qualifier like "they needed to be full fights" you it would still be literally wrong. Though I don't see why you're so doubtful of Sabo's strength when everything points to him being strong. The brief clashes vs extremely strong fighters Sabo always came out ahead except vs Fujitora. Sabo destroyed the ring barehanded and later burned a hole all the way to the toy factory with his first time using his DF. His title is 2nd in command of the Revolutionary army and he is step brother to Ace and Luffy. On March 29 2015 01:25 Hyperbola wrote:
At least we can all agree that if it was between Ace and Sabo, everyone would want Sabo to die and Ace to survive. Sure we haven't seen as much of Sabo as the other two so we care less about him, but his flashback story was enough for most fans to care about him. Go back to when Sabo was revealed alive and the explosion of happy fan reactions. vice admirals arent exactly top tier though, im pretty sure Luffy could plow then easily as well so hes not really evidence to show that Sabo is admiral tier
Comparing Sabo to Luffy doesn't change that it was impressive and just further proves my point that Sabo is strong. I'm sure Zoro could defeat Bastile easily too as you need to be strong to treat vice admirals like fodder. Just like you need to be strong to do all the other stuff Sabo did this arc. It's questionable whether Sanji could do similar things like fight evenly with Fujitora, but not for Zoro, Luffy and Donflamingo. Everything points to Sabo being one of the strongest characters this arc up there with those four.
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On March 29 2015 02:13 Sentenal wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2015 02:05 Forikorder wrote:On March 29 2015 01:52 BlackMagister wrote:I knew you would say something about them being unfinished fights, but how was his fight vs Bastile a play fight? Sabo broke Bastile's weapon, his mask then burninated him, it was complete domination. Even had included some a qualifier like "they needed to be full fights" you it would still be literally wrong. Though I don't see why you're so doubtful of Sabo's strength when everything points to him being strong. The brief clashes vs extremely strong fighters Sabo always came out ahead except vs Fujitora. Sabo destroyed the ring barehanded and later burned a hole all the way to the toy factory with his first time using his DF. His title is 2nd in command of the Revolutionary army and he is step brother to Ace and Luffy. On March 29 2015 01:25 Hyperbola wrote:
At least we can all agree that if it was between Ace and Sabo, everyone would want Sabo to die and Ace to survive. Sure we haven't seen as much of Sabo as the other two so we care less about him, but his flashback story was enough for most fans to care about him. Go back to when Sabo was revealed alive and the explosion of happy fan reactions. vice admirals arent exactly top tier though, im pretty sure Luffy could plow then easily as well so hes not really evidence to show that Sabo is admiral tier Tell that to Smoker and Vergo
Rank does not equal fighting power, I thought we've been over this many times now. Garp and Bastille are both vice admirals, but would you say that they're equal fighters? The only fighting position above vice admiral is an admiral and there can only be three of them at a time, meaning that a lot of strong people are in the waiting line or simply don't want to accept the job's responsibilities (Garp).
Sabo has proven his mettle against everyone that he's been pitted against until now and as the guy above me said, he's the number two of the Revolutionary Army. Personally, I assume he's gotten fighting tuition from Dragon since he has a move called "Dragon Claw".
From a narrative viewpoint, I feel Sabo kind of needs to be a strong fighter if he is to have any impact on things in the New World.
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On March 29 2015 02:13 Sentenal wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2015 02:05 Forikorder wrote:On March 29 2015 01:52 BlackMagister wrote:I knew you would say something about them being unfinished fights, but how was his fight vs Bastile a play fight? Sabo broke Bastile's weapon, his mask then burninated him, it was complete domination. Even had included some a qualifier like "they needed to be full fights" you it would still be literally wrong. Though I don't see why you're so doubtful of Sabo's strength when everything points to him being strong. The brief clashes vs extremely strong fighters Sabo always came out ahead except vs Fujitora. Sabo destroyed the ring barehanded and later burned a hole all the way to the toy factory with his first time using his DF. His title is 2nd in command of the Revolutionary army and he is step brother to Ace and Luffy. On March 29 2015 01:25 Hyperbola wrote:
At least we can all agree that if it was between Ace and Sabo, everyone would want Sabo to die and Ace to survive. Sure we haven't seen as much of Sabo as the other two so we care less about him, but his flashback story was enough for most fans to care about him. Go back to when Sabo was revealed alive and the explosion of happy fan reactions. vice admirals arent exactly top tier though, im pretty sure Luffy could plow then easily as well so hes not really evidence to show that Sabo is admiral tier Tell that to Smoker and Vergo
I really miss old smoker. New smoker just gets defeated too easily. Old smoker mopped the floor with Luffy and pretty much anyone. I think he needs a proper, epic comeback where he just mops the floor with a supernova or something.
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
On a side note, I love how much Law believes in Luffy and the crew's miracles. He seems to have picked up on the fact that they're the main characters.
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On March 29 2015 03:35 herMan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2015 02:13 Sentenal wrote:On March 29 2015 02:05 Forikorder wrote:On March 29 2015 01:52 BlackMagister wrote:I knew you would say something about them being unfinished fights, but how was his fight vs Bastile a play fight? Sabo broke Bastile's weapon, his mask then burninated him, it was complete domination. Even had included some a qualifier like "they needed to be full fights" you it would still be literally wrong. Though I don't see why you're so doubtful of Sabo's strength when everything points to him being strong. The brief clashes vs extremely strong fighters Sabo always came out ahead except vs Fujitora. Sabo destroyed the ring barehanded and later burned a hole all the way to the toy factory with his first time using his DF. His title is 2nd in command of the Revolutionary army and he is step brother to Ace and Luffy. On March 29 2015 01:25 Hyperbola wrote:
At least we can all agree that if it was between Ace and Sabo, everyone would want Sabo to die and Ace to survive. Sure we haven't seen as much of Sabo as the other two so we care less about him, but his flashback story was enough for most fans to care about him. Go back to when Sabo was revealed alive and the explosion of happy fan reactions. vice admirals arent exactly top tier though, im pretty sure Luffy could plow then easily as well so hes not really evidence to show that Sabo is admiral tier Tell that to Smoker and Vergo Rank does not equal fighting power, I thought we've been over this many times now. Garp and Bastille are both vice admirals, but would you say that they're equal fighters? The only fighting position above vice admiral is an admiral and there can only be three of them at a time, meaning that a lot of strong people are in the waiting line or simply don't want to accept the job's responsibilities (Garp). Sabo has proven his mettle against everyone that he's been pitted against until now and as the guy above me said, he's the number two of the Revolutionary Army. Personally, I assume he's gotten fighting tuition from Dragon since he has a move called "Dragon Claw". From a narrative viewpoint, I feel Sabo kind of needs to be a strong fighter if he is to have any impact on things in the New World.
Why are you telling me this? Isn't that my whole point? That rank doesn't equal power levels, and the fact that someone is a Vice Admiral doesn't mean that they are weak and fodder? And that Sabo has proven himself to be strong this arc? IDK why you are trying to argue with me when all you are doing is agreeing with me.
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I'm sorry, didn't mean to quote you but Forikorder! My bad, I'm not used to arguing on message boards.
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noone is saying hes not strong, hes obviously a BAMF but its too early to say hes admiral level
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Fights or outcome of fights doesn't assert tiers either. Luffy wasn't > Crocodile because he beat him back at Alabaster or Enel for that matter.
There's only 3 top tiers on that island and it doesn't include Luffy or Zorro. It's only Doflamingo, Sabo and the Admiral.
Luffy will beat Doflamingo for the same reason he beat Crocodile and Enel, it's not a matter of strength but plot device, though arguably him beating Doflamingo will require less suspension of belief due to the amount of damage his taken already.
People create preconceived tiers of ranking like admiral tier, Shichibukai tier when they aren't rankings of strength at all.
People like Doflamingo and Mihawk are equal to the average admiral in strength and then you have people like Buggy who are far below. Shichibukai is awarded to pirates that are deemed to have strength to support the government either by their own power or their crew power (Buggy's crew) and there's a huge power gap between top Shichibukai like Mihawk and the rest.
Admirals are generally the strongest in the navy which is exactly that and that tier doesn't exclude Yonko or Shichibukai. Strength of Yonko is dependent on the sum of their crew and not a fighting tier at all, just like Shichibukai.
Sabo and the admiral was introduced to neutralize each others presence in the luffy-donflamingo battle. There's no way of knowing who is stronger, but the plot device is pretty evident that for all intents and purposes they cancel each other out freeing luffy to fight Doflamingo. Sabo versus a wounded Doflamgino would be a one sided stomp and the reverse is also true.
Replace Sabo with Zorro and the admiral wouldn't back off because Zorro isn't in the same league. The admiral backs off from fighting Sabo because he sees the futility of the fight (their fight would last days) and no outcome would be reached before the island collapsed.
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On March 29 2015 15:47 kanchome wrote:
Fights or outcome of fights doesn't assert tiers either. Luffy wasn't > Crocodile because he beat him back at Alabaster or Enel for that matter.
There's only 3 top tiers on that island and it doesn't include Luffy or Zorro. It's only Doflamingo, Sabo and the Admiral.
Luffy will beat Doflamingo for the same reason he beat Crocodile and Enel, it's not a matter of strength but plot device, though arguably him beating Doflamingo will require less suspension of belief due to the amount of damage his taken already.
People create preconceived tiers of ranking like admiral tier, Shichibukai tier when they aren't rankings of strength at all.
People like Doflamingo and Mihawk are equal to the average admiral in strength and then you have people like Buggy who are far below. Shichibukai is awarded to pirates that are deemed to have strength to support the government either by their own power or their crew power (Buggy's crew) and there's a huge power gap between top Shichibukai like Mihawk and the rest.
Admirals are generally the strongest in the navy which is exactly that and that tier doesn't exclude Yonko or Shichibukai. Strength of Yonko is dependent on the sum of their crew and not a fighting tier at all, just like Shichibukai.
Sabo and the admiral was introduced to neutralize each others presence in the luffy-donflamingo battle. There's no way of knowing who is stronger, but the plot device is pretty evident that for all intents and purposes they cancel each other out freeing luffy to fight Doflamingo. Sabo versus a wounded Doflamgino would be a one sided stomp and the reverse is also true.
Replace Sabo with Zorro and the admiral wouldn't back off because Zorro isn't in the same league. The admiral backs off from fighting Sabo because he sees the futility of the fight (their fight would last days) and no outcome would be reached before the island collapsed.
luffy spent a long time being peronally trained by Rogers second in command and hasnt had a serious fight yet
besides power levels arent as solid in OP as other manga, in bleach for instance theres rules that prevent weaklings from hurting the top tier but in OP if Luffy punchs someone it will hurt them
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On March 29 2015 15:51 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2015 15:47 kanchome wrote:
Fights or outcome of fights doesn't assert tiers either. Luffy wasn't > Crocodile because he beat him back at Alabaster or Enel for that matter.
There's only 3 top tiers on that island and it doesn't include Luffy or Zorro. It's only Doflamingo, Sabo and the Admiral.
Luffy will beat Doflamingo for the same reason he beat Crocodile and Enel, it's not a matter of strength but plot device, though arguably him beating Doflamingo will require less suspension of belief due to the amount of damage his taken already.
People create preconceived tiers of ranking like admiral tier, Shichibukai tier when they aren't rankings of strength at all.
People like Doflamingo and Mihawk are equal to the average admiral in strength and then you have people like Buggy who are far below. Shichibukai is awarded to pirates that are deemed to have strength to support the government either by their own power or their crew power (Buggy's crew) and there's a huge power gap between top Shichibukai like Mihawk and the rest.
Admirals are generally the strongest in the navy which is exactly that and that tier doesn't exclude Yonko or Shichibukai. Strength of Yonko is dependent on the sum of their crew and not a fighting tier at all, just like Shichibukai.
Sabo and the admiral was introduced to neutralize each others presence in the luffy-donflamingo battle. There's no way of knowing who is stronger, but the plot device is pretty evident that for all intents and purposes they cancel each other out freeing luffy to fight Doflamingo. Sabo versus a wounded Doflamgino would be a one sided stomp and the reverse is also true.
Replace Sabo with Zorro and the admiral wouldn't back off because Zorro isn't in the same league. The admiral backs off from fighting Sabo because he sees the futility of the fight (their fight would last days) and no outcome would be reached before the island collapsed.
luffy spent a long time being peronally trained by Rogers second in command and hasnt had a serious fight yet besides power levels arent as solid in OP as other manga, in bleach for instance theres rules that prevent weaklings from hurting the top tier but in OP if Luffy punchs someone it will hurt them
He wasn't personally trained by him for a long time, He only thought in the basics and abandoned him in the island.
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On March 29 2015 20:40 TMG26 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2015 15:51 Forikorder wrote:On March 29 2015 15:47 kanchome wrote:
Fights or outcome of fights doesn't assert tiers either. Luffy wasn't > Crocodile because he beat him back at Alabaster or Enel for that matter.
There's only 3 top tiers on that island and it doesn't include Luffy or Zorro. It's only Doflamingo, Sabo and the Admiral.
Luffy will beat Doflamingo for the same reason he beat Crocodile and Enel, it's not a matter of strength but plot device, though arguably him beating Doflamingo will require less suspension of belief due to the amount of damage his taken already.
People create preconceived tiers of ranking like admiral tier, Shichibukai tier when they aren't rankings of strength at all.
People like Doflamingo and Mihawk are equal to the average admiral in strength and then you have people like Buggy who are far below. Shichibukai is awarded to pirates that are deemed to have strength to support the government either by their own power or their crew power (Buggy's crew) and there's a huge power gap between top Shichibukai like Mihawk and the rest.
Admirals are generally the strongest in the navy which is exactly that and that tier doesn't exclude Yonko or Shichibukai. Strength of Yonko is dependent on the sum of their crew and not a fighting tier at all, just like Shichibukai.
Sabo and the admiral was introduced to neutralize each others presence in the luffy-donflamingo battle. There's no way of knowing who is stronger, but the plot device is pretty evident that for all intents and purposes they cancel each other out freeing luffy to fight Doflamingo. Sabo versus a wounded Doflamgino would be a one sided stomp and the reverse is also true.
Replace Sabo with Zorro and the admiral wouldn't back off because Zorro isn't in the same league. The admiral backs off from fighting Sabo because he sees the futility of the fight (their fight would last days) and no outcome would be reached before the island collapsed.
luffy spent a long time being peronally trained by Rogers second in command and hasnt had a serious fight yet besides power levels arent as solid in OP as other manga, in bleach for instance theres rules that prevent weaklings from hurting the top tier but in OP if Luffy punchs someone it will hurt them He wasn't personally trained by him for a long time, He only thought in the basics and abandoned him in the island.
18 months with raleigh out of 24
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Maybe Oda leaving Sabo's strength for Big Mom's crew 
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EPT
