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If they're always that element then shouldn't Aokiji always be melting in the heat, especially when sleeping? or sabo constantly sets things on fire? If the complete opposite is true then they'd be able to get hit from behind or something. Neither seem to be true, the power always works however its convenient.
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On February 18 2015 13:44 Chro wrote:
If they're always that element then shouldn't Aokiji always be melting in the heat, especially when sleeping? or sabo constantly sets things on fire? If the complete opposite is true then they'd be able to get hit from behind or something. Neither seem to be true, the power always works however its convenient.
you realise that its magic right?
and about the sabo scene seems like hes just saying that he forgetting that he doesnt ahve to dodge certain things anymore and wastes time doing so
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On February 18 2015 13:44 Chro wrote:
If they're always that element then shouldn't Aokiji always be melting in the heat, especially when sleeping? or sabo constantly sets things on fire? If the complete opposite is true then they'd be able to get hit from behind or something. Neither seem to be true, the power always works however its convenient.
Most of the logias we've seen have been of high enough calibre to react to all the attacks thrown at them. In addition, they can during combat, maintain themselves as mostly elemental so that normal attacks are of no concern to them. And Smoker has been hit in the back by Luffy, which is evidence though not the strongest evidence due to the humorous context as mentioned by Forikorder. However it is evidence, and there isn't any evidence of the contrary.
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On February 18 2015 14:10 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2015 13:44 Chro wrote:
If they're always that element then shouldn't Aokiji always be melting in the heat, especially when sleeping? or sabo constantly sets things on fire? If the complete opposite is true then they'd be able to get hit from behind or something. Neither seem to be true, the power always works however its convenient. Most of the logias we've seen have been of high enough calibre to react to all the attacks thrown at them. In addition, they can during combat, maintain themselves as mostly elemental so that normal attacks are of no concern to them. And Smoker has been hit in the back by Luffy, which is evidence though not the strongest evidence due to the humorous context as mentioned by Forikorder. However it is evidence, and there isn't any evidence of the contrary.
if we had seen a single logia make any comment at all about needing to expend the barest amount of effort needed to "dodge" attacks that would be one thing but before we learned about Haki all of them basically would jsut look bored whenever they got attacked or pay absolutely no attention to whoever is attacking them
i dont see any reason to think Logia needs to be toggled on any time they get attacked
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On February 18 2015 14:15 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2015 14:10 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On February 18 2015 13:44 Chro wrote:
If they're always that element then shouldn't Aokiji always be melting in the heat, especially when sleeping? or sabo constantly sets things on fire? If the complete opposite is true then they'd be able to get hit from behind or something. Neither seem to be true, the power always works however its convenient. Most of the logias we've seen have been of high enough calibre to react to all the attacks thrown at them. In addition, they can during combat, maintain themselves as mostly elemental so that normal attacks are of no concern to them. And Smoker has been hit in the back by Luffy, which is evidence though not the strongest evidence due to the humorous context as mentioned by Forikorder. However it is evidence, and there isn't any evidence of the contrary. if we had seen a single logia make any comment at all about needing to expend the barest amount of effort needed to "dodge" attacks that would be one thing but before we learned about Haki all of them basically would jsut look bored whenever they got attacked or pay absolutely no attention to whoever is attacking them i dont see any reason to think Logia needs to be toggled on any time they get attacked
I'm not sure why you're assuming that they'd become their element automatically. A logia fruit gives a power to turn into an element afterall.
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On February 18 2015 14:35 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2015 14:15 Forikorder wrote:On February 18 2015 14:10 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On February 18 2015 13:44 Chro wrote:
If they're always that element then shouldn't Aokiji always be melting in the heat, especially when sleeping? or sabo constantly sets things on fire? If the complete opposite is true then they'd be able to get hit from behind or something. Neither seem to be true, the power always works however its convenient. Most of the logias we've seen have been of high enough calibre to react to all the attacks thrown at them. In addition, they can during combat, maintain themselves as mostly elemental so that normal attacks are of no concern to them. And Smoker has been hit in the back by Luffy, which is evidence though not the strongest evidence due to the humorous context as mentioned by Forikorder. However it is evidence, and there isn't any evidence of the contrary. if we had seen a single logia make any comment at all about needing to expend the barest amount of effort needed to "dodge" attacks that would be one thing but before we learned about Haki all of them basically would jsut look bored whenever they got attacked or pay absolutely no attention to whoever is attacking them i dont see any reason to think Logia needs to be toggled on any time they get attacked I'm not sure why you're assuming that they'd become their element automatically. A logia fruit gives a power to turn into an element afterall.
i think its like Luffys they become there element not turn into it
and before someone saids something like "then why doesnt ace burn things all the time" remember Akainus clothes survived his fight at marineford i think if his clothes can survive the heat of magma then we can assume the magic fire of the magic fruit doesnt burn things randomly
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On February 18 2015 14:44 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2015 14:35 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On February 18 2015 14:15 Forikorder wrote:On February 18 2015 14:10 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On February 18 2015 13:44 Chro wrote:
If they're always that element then shouldn't Aokiji always be melting in the heat, especially when sleeping? or sabo constantly sets things on fire? If the complete opposite is true then they'd be able to get hit from behind or something. Neither seem to be true, the power always works however its convenient. Most of the logias we've seen have been of high enough calibre to react to all the attacks thrown at them. In addition, they can during combat, maintain themselves as mostly elemental so that normal attacks are of no concern to them. And Smoker has been hit in the back by Luffy, which is evidence though not the strongest evidence due to the humorous context as mentioned by Forikorder. However it is evidence, and there isn't any evidence of the contrary. if we had seen a single logia make any comment at all about needing to expend the barest amount of effort needed to "dodge" attacks that would be one thing but before we learned about Haki all of them basically would jsut look bored whenever they got attacked or pay absolutely no attention to whoever is attacking them i dont see any reason to think Logia needs to be toggled on any time they get attacked I'm not sure why you're assuming that they'd become their element automatically. A logia fruit gives a power to turn into an element afterall. i think its like Luffys they become there element not turn into it and before someone saids something like "then why doesnt ace burn things all the time" remember Akainus clothes survived his fight at marineford i think if his clothes can survive the heat of magma then we can assume the magic fire of the magic fruit doesn't burn things randomly
I agree with this, from my understanding logia fruits turn you into the element not give you the ability to turn into. The reason why their clothes don't burn or they don't melt is simple.. It's a Manga, it'd be way to inconvenient to the story and to drawing them if every time they had to be drawn burning clothes or being naked, or slowly melting in every next frame etc. Its purely for the sake of convenience. Trying to argue real world physics of elements and how they would react in a Manga universe is just plain silly. In the anime, Ace uses a fiery finger to tilt his hat up and the hat doesn't burst into flames.. Why? For the sake of looking cool and convenience. No real world logic need apply.
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On February 18 2015 14:44 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2015 14:35 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On February 18 2015 14:15 Forikorder wrote:On February 18 2015 14:10 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On February 18 2015 13:44 Chro wrote:
If they're always that element then shouldn't Aokiji always be melting in the heat, especially when sleeping? or sabo constantly sets things on fire? If the complete opposite is true then they'd be able to get hit from behind or something. Neither seem to be true, the power always works however its convenient. Most of the logias we've seen have been of high enough calibre to react to all the attacks thrown at them. In addition, they can during combat, maintain themselves as mostly elemental so that normal attacks are of no concern to them. And Smoker has been hit in the back by Luffy, which is evidence though not the strongest evidence due to the humorous context as mentioned by Forikorder. However it is evidence, and there isn't any evidence of the contrary. if we had seen a single logia make any comment at all about needing to expend the barest amount of effort needed to "dodge" attacks that would be one thing but before we learned about Haki all of them basically would jsut look bored whenever they got attacked or pay absolutely no attention to whoever is attacking them i dont see any reason to think Logia needs to be toggled on any time they get attacked I'm not sure why you're assuming that they'd become their element automatically. A logia fruit gives a power to turn into an element afterall. i think its like Luffys they become there element not turn into it and before someone saids something like "then why doesnt ace burn things all the time" remember Akainus clothes survived his fight at marineford i think if his clothes can survive the heat of magma then we can assume the magic fire of the magic fruit doesnt burn things randomly
In an SBS, Oda says
D: Oda-sensei, I was curious; is Foxy the Silver Fox's Noro Noro no Mi a Logia type, Paramecia type, or Zoan type? I'll be too anxious for your reply to use the bathroom, so hurry it up.
O: It's a Paramecia (superhuman) type. Logia (nature) type can turn their bodies into something completely different. Zoan (animal) type can turn into animals. Everything aside from those is lumped into the Paramecia (superhuman) category. However, there are some Paramecia who can change their own bodies, as well.
That phrasing definitely implies turning into as opposed to being made of that element in permanence.
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On February 18 2015 15:02 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2015 14:44 Forikorder wrote:On February 18 2015 14:35 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On February 18 2015 14:15 Forikorder wrote:On February 18 2015 14:10 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On February 18 2015 13:44 Chro wrote:
If they're always that element then shouldn't Aokiji always be melting in the heat, especially when sleeping? or sabo constantly sets things on fire? If the complete opposite is true then they'd be able to get hit from behind or something. Neither seem to be true, the power always works however its convenient. Most of the logias we've seen have been of high enough calibre to react to all the attacks thrown at them. In addition, they can during combat, maintain themselves as mostly elemental so that normal attacks are of no concern to them. And Smoker has been hit in the back by Luffy, which is evidence though not the strongest evidence due to the humorous context as mentioned by Forikorder. However it is evidence, and there isn't any evidence of the contrary. if we had seen a single logia make any comment at all about needing to expend the barest amount of effort needed to "dodge" attacks that would be one thing but before we learned about Haki all of them basically would jsut look bored whenever they got attacked or pay absolutely no attention to whoever is attacking them i dont see any reason to think Logia needs to be toggled on any time they get attacked I'm not sure why you're assuming that they'd become their element automatically. A logia fruit gives a power to turn into an element afterall. i think its like Luffys they become there element not turn into it and before someone saids something like "then why doesnt ace burn things all the time" remember Akainus clothes survived his fight at marineford i think if his clothes can survive the heat of magma then we can assume the magic fire of the magic fruit doesnt burn things randomly In an SBS, Oda says Show nested quote +D: Oda-sensei, I was curious; is Foxy the Silver Fox's Noro Noro no Mi a Logia type, Paramecia type, or Zoan type? I'll be too anxious for your reply to use the bathroom, so hurry it up.
O: It's a Paramecia (superhuman) type. Logia (nature) type can turn their bodies into something completely different. Zoan (animal) type can turn into animals. Everything aside from those is lumped into the Paramecia (superhuman) category. However, there are some Paramecia who can change their own bodies, as well. That phrasing definitely implies turning into as opposed to being made of that element in permanence.
wording is pretty vague (he could be refering to say Crocs sand blades) and i dunno if anything could be lost in translation
hardly conclusive proof IMO
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On February 18 2015 15:13 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2015 15:02 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On February 18 2015 14:44 Forikorder wrote:On February 18 2015 14:35 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On February 18 2015 14:15 Forikorder wrote:On February 18 2015 14:10 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On February 18 2015 13:44 Chro wrote:
If they're always that element then shouldn't Aokiji always be melting in the heat, especially when sleeping? or sabo constantly sets things on fire? If the complete opposite is true then they'd be able to get hit from behind or something. Neither seem to be true, the power always works however its convenient. Most of the logias we've seen have been of high enough calibre to react to all the attacks thrown at them. In addition, they can during combat, maintain themselves as mostly elemental so that normal attacks are of no concern to them. And Smoker has been hit in the back by Luffy, which is evidence though not the strongest evidence due to the humorous context as mentioned by Forikorder. However it is evidence, and there isn't any evidence of the contrary. if we had seen a single logia make any comment at all about needing to expend the barest amount of effort needed to "dodge" attacks that would be one thing but before we learned about Haki all of them basically would jsut look bored whenever they got attacked or pay absolutely no attention to whoever is attacking them i dont see any reason to think Logia needs to be toggled on any time they get attacked I'm not sure why you're assuming that they'd become their element automatically. A logia fruit gives a power to turn into an element afterall. i think its like Luffys they become there element not turn into it and before someone saids something like "then why doesnt ace burn things all the time" remember Akainus clothes survived his fight at marineford i think if his clothes can survive the heat of magma then we can assume the magic fire of the magic fruit doesnt burn things randomly In an SBS, Oda says D: Oda-sensei, I was curious; is Foxy the Silver Fox's Noro Noro no Mi a Logia type, Paramecia type, or Zoan type? I'll be too anxious for your reply to use the bathroom, so hurry it up.
O: It's a Paramecia (superhuman) type. Logia (nature) type can turn their bodies into something completely different. Zoan (animal) type can turn into animals. Everything aside from those is lumped into the Paramecia (superhuman) category. However, there are some Paramecia who can change their own bodies, as well. That phrasing definitely implies turning into as opposed to being made of that element in permanence. wording is pretty vague (he could be refering to say Crocs sand blades) and i dunno if anything could be lost in translation hardly conclusive proof IMO
Its not conclusive, but it certainly draws strong parallels between Logia and Zoan. And meanwhile you don't have a shred of proof of anything at all as usual.
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On February 18 2015 14:53 Necro)Phagist( wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2015 14:44 Forikorder wrote:On February 18 2015 14:35 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On February 18 2015 14:15 Forikorder wrote:On February 18 2015 14:10 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On February 18 2015 13:44 Chro wrote:
If they're always that element then shouldn't Aokiji always be melting in the heat, especially when sleeping? or sabo constantly sets things on fire? If the complete opposite is true then they'd be able to get hit from behind or something. Neither seem to be true, the power always works however its convenient. Most of the logias we've seen have been of high enough calibre to react to all the attacks thrown at them. In addition, they can during combat, maintain themselves as mostly elemental so that normal attacks are of no concern to them. And Smoker has been hit in the back by Luffy, which is evidence though not the strongest evidence due to the humorous context as mentioned by Forikorder. However it is evidence, and there isn't any evidence of the contrary. if we had seen a single logia make any comment at all about needing to expend the barest amount of effort needed to "dodge" attacks that would be one thing but before we learned about Haki all of them basically would jsut look bored whenever they got attacked or pay absolutely no attention to whoever is attacking them i dont see any reason to think Logia needs to be toggled on any time they get attacked I'm not sure why you're assuming that they'd become their element automatically. A logia fruit gives a power to turn into an element afterall. i think its like Luffys they become there element not turn into it and before someone saids something like "then why doesnt ace burn things all the time" remember Akainus clothes survived his fight at marineford i think if his clothes can survive the heat of magma then we can assume the magic fire of the magic fruit doesn't burn things randomly I agree with this, from my understanding logia fruits turn you into the element not give you the ability to turn into. The reason why their clothes don't burn or they don't melt is simple.. It's a Manga, it'd be way to inconvenient to the story and to drawing them if every time they had to be drawn burning clothes or being naked, or slowly melting in every next frame etc. Its purely for the sake of convenience. Trying to argue real world physics of elements and how they would react in a Manga universe is just plain silly. In the anime, Ace uses a fiery finger to tilt his hat up and the hat doesn't burst into flames.. Why? For the sake of looking cool and convenience. No real world logic need apply.
You're right at the reasoning, but Logia users don't burn their clothes simply because Oda doesn't want a lot of nudity (even though that is the ultimate reason). Logia users actually turn their clothes into their element therefore they don't damage their clothes so you don't see an element with clothing floating the clothing is elemental temporarily. This even applies to attached body parts as Monet could turn her wings into snow.
As for why this was argued before it was about whether Logia users could be hit by sneak attacks. Smoker and Ace being hit by Luffy in the diner suggests they can, but the scene can be dismissed by rule of funny. I guess Zig misremembered because there doesn't appear to be a scene where Crocodile does say that it's a trained reflex. It can be argued either way though I think it makes most sense for it to be a trained reflex to become elemental otherwise they would need to train to be human in their sleep or if are knocked out would become their element.
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On February 18 2015 04:36 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2015 02:29 BlackMagister wrote:
We had this discussion on whether Logia had to train their reactions to become elemental to dodge attacks or are always elemental. I don't think it was conclusive either way, but at the very least Logia can turn off their ability and be normal as shown when Caribou hid his Logia ability letting himself get punched. This was definitely not rule of funny like when Nami beats up Luffy. Crocodile straight up says that he had to train himself to become elemental to dodge attacks. Logias aren't always elemental.
I think what crocodile said was that he doesn't content himself with merely having the devil's fruit ability, he said that he trained himself to use the fruit.
Personally I think the most obvious explanation is that Logias can sometimes be solid, sometimes be the element. Paramecias, like Luffy, don't have that kind of control.
Das Bones is always steel/blades, luffy is always rubber. Smoker is sometimes smoke, sometimes not. Same with Crocodile and the rest of the fruit users. Same for Pica as well.
Jozu has eaten a currently unnamed Devil Fruit that allows him to transform parts and most likely all of his body, into diamond. This power has earned him the nickname "Diamond Jozu".[3] It is possibly a Logia-type due to the fact that he can willingly transform his entire body into an element, something that distinguishes Logia-users from Paramecia-users.
Wiki resumes it well.
It makes sense too, if logias are always their element, then ace couldn't arm wrestle luffy for example.
I also believe that Logias can be taken by surprise. It's just that a logia on guard will preemptively make sure they're in their element form.
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On February 18 2015 17:09 Incognoto wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On February 18 2015 04:36 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2015 02:29 BlackMagister wrote:
We had this discussion on whether Logia had to train their reactions to become elemental to dodge attacks or are always elemental. I don't think it was conclusive either way, but at the very least Logia can turn off their ability and be normal as shown when Caribou hid his Logia ability letting himself get punched. This was definitely not rule of funny like when Nami beats up Luffy. Crocodile straight up says that he had to train himself to become elemental to dodge attacks. Logias aren't always elemental. I think what crocodile said was that he doesn't content himself with merely having the devil's fruit ability, he said that he trained himself to use the fruit. Personally I think the most obvious explanation is that Logias can sometimes be solid, sometimes be the element. Paramecias, like Luffy, don't have that kind of control. Das Bones is always steel/blades, luffy is always rubber. Smoker is sometimes smoke, sometimes not. Same with Crocodile and the rest of the fruit users. Same for Pica as well. Jozu has eaten a currently unnamed Devil Fruit that allows him to transform parts and most likely all of his body, into diamond. This power has earned him the nickname "Diamond Jozu".[3] It is possibly a Logia-type due to the fact that he can willingly transform his entire body into an element, something that distinguishes Logia-users from Paramecia-users. Wiki resumes it well. It makes sense too, if logias are always their element, then ace couldn't arm wrestle luffy for example. I also believe that Logias can be taken by surprise. It's just that a logia on guard will preemptively make sure they're in their element form.
Since this discussion is back on the table, I just thought about it for kicks.
Since logias could select which part is in element form and which part is in human mode, would most adept logia users choose to simply have their external "shell" be in human form while the whole internal was in element form to minimize any damage from surprise attacks so that they would only need to revert their external form into their element to save from any damage that is non haki based if we are to assume surprise attacks could work (if they have little to no observation haki to detect assailants going for an ambush)
The human mode wouldn't take damage from their own element in this case as they are immune from it regardless of what it is right?
But for the gag scene, you could argue that since the external shell wasn't reverted to element mode, then the external shell was able to take the force of the hit and transform it into motion as a push or whatever.
As for the clothes, well I just go with Superman Logic powers wherein their powers extend around their body a few mm that allows them to also affect their clothes in the transformation and also protect it from damage unless imbued with haki as well.
Just my take.
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This week break? Or there is chapter, but not on wed? on thursday?
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France7248 Posts
it's pretty much always on Thursday now
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Didn't read all the wall of text but diamond dude is (highly probably) not logia because who says Diamond is element, we have seen metal/sword man etc so diamond is (probably) just like them. Logia users usually are made by something not solid (eventhough they might look solid as a whole).
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On February 18 2015 15:16 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2015 15:13 Forikorder wrote:On February 18 2015 15:02 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On February 18 2015 14:44 Forikorder wrote:On February 18 2015 14:35 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On February 18 2015 14:15 Forikorder wrote:On February 18 2015 14:10 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On February 18 2015 13:44 Chro wrote:
If they're always that element then shouldn't Aokiji always be melting in the heat, especially when sleeping? or sabo constantly sets things on fire? If the complete opposite is true then they'd be able to get hit from behind or something. Neither seem to be true, the power always works however its convenient. Most of the logias we've seen have been of high enough calibre to react to all the attacks thrown at them. In addition, they can during combat, maintain themselves as mostly elemental so that normal attacks are of no concern to them. And Smoker has been hit in the back by Luffy, which is evidence though not the strongest evidence due to the humorous context as mentioned by Forikorder. However it is evidence, and there isn't any evidence of the contrary. if we had seen a single logia make any comment at all about needing to expend the barest amount of effort needed to "dodge" attacks that would be one thing but before we learned about Haki all of them basically would jsut look bored whenever they got attacked or pay absolutely no attention to whoever is attacking them i dont see any reason to think Logia needs to be toggled on any time they get attacked I'm not sure why you're assuming that they'd become their element automatically. A logia fruit gives a power to turn into an element afterall. i think its like Luffys they become there element not turn into it and before someone saids something like "then why doesnt ace burn things all the time" remember Akainus clothes survived his fight at marineford i think if his clothes can survive the heat of magma then we can assume the magic fire of the magic fruit doesnt burn things randomly In an SBS, Oda says D: Oda-sensei, I was curious; is Foxy the Silver Fox's Noro Noro no Mi a Logia type, Paramecia type, or Zoan type? I'll be too anxious for your reply to use the bathroom, so hurry it up.
O: It's a Paramecia (superhuman) type. Logia (nature) type can turn their bodies into something completely different. Zoan (animal) type can turn into animals. Everything aside from those is lumped into the Paramecia (superhuman) category. However, there are some Paramecia who can change their own bodies, as well. That phrasing definitely implies turning into as opposed to being made of that element in permanence. wording is pretty vague (he could be refering to say Crocs sand blades) and i dunno if anything could be lost in translation hardly conclusive proof IMO Its not conclusive, but it certainly draws strong parallels between Logia and Zoan. And meanwhile you don't have a shred of proof of anything at all as usual.
your implying that you do, but really the only proof is how you interpret the smoker scene
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I haven't read such an emotional chapter in a very long time. Kyros' speech was so touching it might as well be referenced in a philosophical dissertation or lit class
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I thought OP was on break this week.
I wouldn't mind being wrong though.
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EPT
