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United States1655 Posts
On August 30 2012 02:51 acker wrote:
I'm guessing that the real Madara was Tobi for a long, long time...but he died relatively recently. Obito (or, at least, his body) has taken over the job of "Tobi" ever since then.
This is what I'm thinking.
When Madara is revived, Kabuto refers to himself as "his assistant". I interpreted this line as Kabuto saying he was Orochimaru's assistant (since only Orochimaru and the Second knew Edo Tensei), implying that Madara lived long enough after his fight with Hashirama to meet Orochimaru. Orochimaru may have helped Madara prolong his life and used the Hashirama DNA Madara obtained to create Zetsu. This is probably also how Orochimaru, and in turn Kabuto, got his hands on Madara's DNA.
Orochimaru does have a hideout around the area where Obito died, so it's entirely plausible they could have found his body. Perhaps Madara, wanting some kind of vessel to carry on his plan to rule the world with Infinite Tsukuyomi (he mentions this technique when he is revived so he definitely knows Tobi's plan), injects some of his own cells into Obito, who is also reconstructed using Zetsu goop. This gives him both Uchiha and Senju powers, and Madara's cells begin to merge with Obito's, giving him some sort of dual personality with the memories of both. He begins taking on Madara's persona. Madara probably expresses that he wants to be revived into the world after Infinite Tsukuyomi has been cast on it.
Next, isn't it possible that the man who attacked Konoha was actually Madara? Assuming Madara used Izanagi or Izanami to survive his battle with Hashirama (because otherwise I don't understand how he could fake his death in front of a godly ninja like Hashirama), he needed to replace one of his blind eyes, which he did with Obito's. Assuming that Madara did in fact live this long, it means that he for whatever reason did not want to reveal himself to the world again, and he probably had no eyes at the time they found Obito (see the next paragraph). Madara would be pretty old at this time, but like the Third showed, you can be old and still put up a good fight (he technically lost to Minato anyway). This is why Minato deduces that his opponent must be Madara, but discards the idea because as everyone assumes, Madara is dead.
One of the main counter points to the Tobi being Obito is that Tobi states he gave Nagato the Rinnegan. However, this is a strange statement to make regardless of who Tobi actually is. Why would anyone entrust the most powerful eyes to some random pre-pubescent kid? All we know for certain is that Madara awakened the Rinnegan shortly before he died, but "shortly" could mean anything. It's possible Madara abducted some random Uzumaki kid and transplanted them into him. And because Tobi seems to share Madara's memories, his claim that he gave Nagato the Rinnegan makes sense. It's also possible (albeit far-fetched) that Madara is Nagato's father. For whatever reason, Madara and an Uzumaki woman gave birth to Nagato, who is able to awaken the Rinnegan by having both Uchiha and Senju blood. Maybe that's why Nagato wordlessly followed Tobi's orders, and how Tobi knew Nagato was from the Uzumaki clan. It's also possible that after Madara died, someone else took them out of his sockets and gave them to Nagato, though this would go against Tobi's statement, so something else must have happened with the Rinnegan.
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On August 30 2012 03:11 Sigrun wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2012 02:51 acker wrote:
I'm guessing that the real Madara was Tobi for a long, long time...but he died relatively recently. Obito (or, at least, his body) has taken over the job of "Tobi" ever since then. This is what I'm thinking. When Madara is revived, Kabuto refers to himself as "his assistant". I interpreted this line as Kabuto saying he was Orochimaru's assistant (since only Orochimaru and the Second knew Edo Tensei), implying that Madara lived long enough after his fight with Hashirama to meet Orochimaru. Orochimaru may have helped Madara prolong his life and used the Hashirama DNA Madara obtained to create Zetsu. This is probably also how Orochimaru, and in turn Kabuto, got his hands on Madara's DNA. Orochimaru does have a hideout around the area where Obito died, so it's entirely plausible they could have found his body. Perhaps Madara, wanting some kind of vessel to carry on his plan to rule the world with Infinite Tsukuyomi (he mentions this technique when he is revived so he definitely knows Tobi's plan), injects some of his own cells into Obito, who is also reconstructed using Zetsu goop. This gives him both Uchiha and Senju powers, and Madara's cells begin to merge with Obito's, giving him some sort of dual personality with the memories of both. He begins taking on Madara's persona. Madara probably expresses that he wants to be revived into the world after Infinite Tsukuyomi has been cast on it. Next, isn't it possible that the man who attacked Konoha was actually Madara? Assuming Madara used Izanagi or Izanami to survive his battle with Hashirama (because otherwise I don't understand how he could fake his death in front of a godly ninja like Hashirama), he needed to replace one of his blind eyes, which he did with Obito's. Assuming that Madara did in fact live this long, it means that he for whatever reason did not want to reveal himself to the world again, and he probably had no eyes at the time they found Obito (see the next paragraph). Madara would be pretty old at this time, but like the Third showed, you can be old and still put up a good fight (he technically lost to Minato anyway). This is why Minato deduces that his opponent must be Madara, but discards the idea because as everyone assumes, Madara is dead. One of the main counter points to the Tobi being Obito is that Tobi states he gave Nagato the Rinnegan. However, this is a strange statement to make regardless of who Tobi actually is. Why would anyone entrust the most powerful eyes to some random pre-pubescent kid? All we know for certain is that Madara awakened the Rinnegan shortly before he died, but "shortly" could mean anything. It's possible Madara abducted some random Uzumaki kid and transplanted them into him. And because Tobi seems to share Madara's memories, his claim that he gave Nagato the Rinnegan makes sense. It's also possible (albeit far-fetched) that Madara is Nagato's father. For whatever reason, Madara and an Uzumaki woman gave birth to Nagato, who is able to awaken the Rinnegan by having both Uchiha and Senju blood. Maybe that's why Nagato wordlessly followed Tobi's orders, and how Tobi knew Nagato was from the Uzumaki clan. It's also possible that after Madara died, someone else took them out of his sockets and gave them to Nagato, though this would go against Tobi's statement, so something else must have happened with the Rinnegan.
Wouldn't be surprised if Kishi takes your theory into account. We've all theoretically agreed that Tobi MAY BE Obito.
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LOL I love everybody crying that the explanation sucks before Kishi even presents his explanation. There is a 99% chance that the real explanation will involve events and abilities that we've never known about, thus making it impossible for us to predict what it will be, thus making it ridiculous to assume it will be stupid.
As far as I can tell, Tobi first appeared in chapter 280, which was released over 7 years ago. This explanation has been a long time in the making, so let's give Kishi the benefit of the doubt, here.
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http://www.likenaruto.com/manga/Naruto/562/4/
Madara knows about the moons eye plan,
What we're saying with Zetsu+madara being more Tobi than obito might very well be true. I wouldn't be surprised if Obito was under some kind of Genjustsu but Shisuis eyes are both destroyed and accounted for so I guess that can't be true.
Also come to think of it Obito doesn't seem to be that strong in terms of fighting. I mean everyone passes through them and he generally acts all tough and pretends to be hiding his true strength but most of what he can do is that one phasing in and out of dimension technique and then the 6 paths of pain which he got from the rinnegan. Maybe it isn't so unbelieveable that it's partially obito since he's just using his technique to move around quickly, act like he's invincible to scheme and talk to people he isn't exactly killing shit on the scale say pain was.
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I think Zetzu will be key in the explanation, or at least the experiments that led up to his creation.
Also I wouldn't be surprised if there was yet another level to the Sharingan past when it evolves into the Rinnegan. Much like Tobi's mask where you see the spirals of the rinnegan with tomoes of the sharingan.
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On August 30 2012 03:35 Slaughter wrote:
I think Zetzu will be key in the explanation, or at least the experiments that led up to his creation.
Also I wouldn't be surprised if there was yet another level to the Sharingan past when it evolves into the Rinnegan. Much like Tobi's mask where you see the spirals of the rinnegan with tomoes of the sharingan.
The mask is the appearance of the eye of the 10-tail isn't it?
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On August 30 2012 00:30 FakeDeath wrote:
things kishi has to explain:
1. obito growth (fight minato vs tobi... and minato mistaking him for madara.. instead of his own student?! the KAGE messes up chakra recognition?)
2. obitos survival (he was on his dying bed.. and tons of rocks fell on him.. (did he really activated state 1-tomoe -> mangekyou in ONE moment???? most talented uchiha EVER??)
3. liquified arm (fight minato vs tobi)
4. change of heart (obito=good guy, kind hearted / tobi=bad guy, god complex)
5. knowledge about history of the sage, madara and izuna, etc.
6. NOT returning to the village after he survived (even if its some ridiculous timetravel stuff.. he still could have returned to HIS time and said "hey guys, i survived..oh and with my eye there is some serious timetravel shit going on!"
7. hate against uchiha in general
8. collection of eyes (purpose??)
9. connection to madara
10. knowledge about how to tame/summon the kyuubi and when the perfect timing is
11. knowledge about the area where kushina gave birth to naruto
12. why kyuubi messed up obitos and madaras chakra? (once controlled in madaras times against hashirama, once controlled in fight against 4th, and the mighty kyuubi messed up to recognize different chakratypes??)
13. relation to akatsuki (Obito wasnt even born when yahikos team created akatsuki)
14. Obito gave Nagato the Rinnegan? Obito wasnt even born when Nagato activated it (Jirayia was middleaged, trained nagato, returned to the village, trained YOUNG 4th hokage, 4th hokage grew up and trained YOUNG obito, simple time chain)
15. Tobi stating he fought Hashirama to steal his DNA .. after Kabuto revealed Madaras coffin .. Kabuto knew that Tobi wasnt madara.. yet he stated that he has fought hashirama...?
ok.. 15 points so far.. dont know if i can come up with more, this is just stuff i remember off the spot.. not even really in depth!!
I rerember back when Tobi and Deidara was first introduced.
There were people who speculated Tobi is Obito and i thought they were trolling HARD.
Now i feel stupid.
Kishi better fucking takes his time and explains.Or else i will be pissed.
1. There are about 1000 explanations for this. First, Obito obviously didn't improve on his own. He was in contact with Zetsu and/or Madara. Who knows if it's even his real body or his normal chakra anymore.
2. Once again, saved by Madara and/or Zetsu. Super easy explanation.
3. Zetsu or some other new ability.
4. He could have been manipulated by someone. Sasuke had a change of heart much faster. Besides, it was shown that Obito was jealous and emotional as a kid, anyway.
5. Could have learned all this from Madara, or by reading the Uchiha tablets.
6. Because the only reason he survived was because he partnered with Madara and Zetsu. I assume the bad guys aren't going to save you just so you can abandon them and go back to the good guys.
7. This has Madara's influence all over it.
8. *yawn* Madara
9. Madara already said after he was resurrected that he knows who Tobi is. He even guesses that Kabuto is working with Tobi. 99% of your questions seem to stem from you not knowing this fact.
10. Madara
11. Um, he can teleport almost anywhere. Not hard to do recon when that happens.
12. He might not have Obito's normal body anymore, or might have new chakra.
13, 14. Obivously this means Tobi is much older than he seems, and he was tricking people to seem young.
15. Tobi's entire gig was to pretend to be Madara. He's going to say he did everything that Madara actually did.
Most of the complaints about plot holes etc are just because people are either (a) too impatient to wait for the explanation, or (b) aren't aware of basic plot elements like the fact that Madara Uchiha knew of Tobi before his death, which must make Tobi extremely old.
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Hey guys, I like all the theories on how this could be more complicated than it seems, but I must say, I rather enjoy my current sick pleasure in hoping for a My Little Storyline Fail
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Imo it will be that Tobi is actually madara and Obito. Madara just died then Obito took over.
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Reread the chapter where Kushina talks to Naruto about the day he was born.
Tobi says something along the lines of
"I'm going to rip the nine tails from your stomach"
"Do you have ANY idea how long I've waited for this?"
Obito would have only been 1 year or so from almost dying so he wouldn't be waiting and also he wouldn't know the way seals work so it definitely has to be an older Uchiha almost certainly madara who is in some form controlling his mind. There's evidence everywhere that tobi thinks like Madara has the same plans and similar ancient knowledge so they have to be connected.
4th: "Are you uchiha madara? No, he's long dead."
Tobi: "Oh, I don't know bout THAT"
(emphasis on LONG dead here)
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It's not the real obito. Has to be someone else in obito's body.
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"(To Kakashi) "You've seen reality, you should be able to understand… No wish can become true in this world. That's why I'm pursuing the dream of infinite Tsukuyomi. I want to build a world where heroes don't have to make pitiful excuses in front of graves."
He's refering to kakashi going to the konoha gravestone mourning I guess for obito all the time. So he seems to have obitos memories and probably later tobi found him at the gravestone.
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i think slayer91 is right
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So about the theory of Orochimaru meddling with Obito.. why doesn't he take that fucking eye for himself? Idk what's his fetish for Uchiha bodies, when all you need is a single eyeball.
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On August 30 2012 03:11 Sigrun wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2012 02:51 acker wrote:
I'm guessing that the real Madara was Tobi for a long, long time...but he died relatively recently. Obito (or, at least, his body) has taken over the job of "Tobi" ever since then. This is what I'm thinking. When Madara is revived, Kabuto refers to himself as "his assistant". I interpreted this line as Kabuto saying he was Orochimaru's assistant (since only Orochimaru and the Second knew Edo Tensei), implying that Madara lived long enough after his fight with Hashirama to meet Orochimaru. Orochimaru may have helped Madara prolong his life and used the Hashirama DNA Madara obtained to create Zetsu. This is probably also how Orochimaru, and in turn Kabuto, got his hands on Madara's DNA. Orochimaru does have a hideout around the area where Obito died, so it's entirely plausible they could have found his body. Perhaps Madara, wanting some kind of vessel to carry on his plan to rule the world with Infinite Tsukuyomi (he mentions this technique when he is revived so he definitely knows Tobi's plan), injects some of his own cells into Obito, who is also reconstructed using Zetsu goop. This gives him both Uchiha and Senju powers, and Madara's cells begin to merge with Obito's, giving him some sort of dual personality with the memories of both. He begins taking on Madara's persona. Madara probably expresses that he wants to be revived into the world after Infinite Tsukuyomi has been cast on it. Next, isn't it possible that the man who attacked Konoha was actually Madara? Assuming Madara used Izanagi or Izanami to survive his battle with Hashirama (because otherwise I don't understand how he could fake his death in front of a godly ninja like Hashirama), he needed to replace one of his blind eyes, which he did with Obito's. Assuming that Madara did in fact live this long, it means that he for whatever reason did not want to reveal himself to the world again, and he probably had no eyes at the time they found Obito (see the next paragraph). Madara would be pretty old at this time, but like the Third showed, you can be old and still put up a good fight (he technically lost to Minato anyway). This is why Minato deduces that his opponent must be Madara, but discards the idea because as everyone assumes, Madara is dead. One of the main counter points to the Tobi being Obito is that Tobi states he gave Nagato the Rinnegan. However, this is a strange statement to make regardless of who Tobi actually is. Why would anyone entrust the most powerful eyes to some random pre-pubescent kid? All we know for certain is that Madara awakened the Rinnegan shortly before he died, but "shortly" could mean anything. It's possible Madara abducted some random Uzumaki kid and transplanted them into him. And because Tobi seems to share Madara's memories, his claim that he gave Nagato the Rinnegan makes sense. It's also possible (albeit far-fetched) that Madara is Nagato's father. For whatever reason, Madara and an Uzumaki woman gave birth to Nagato, who is able to awaken the Rinnegan by having both Uchiha and Senju blood. Maybe that's why Nagato wordlessly followed Tobi's orders, and how Tobi knew Nagato was from the Uzumaki clan. It's also possible that after Madara died, someone else took them out of his sockets and gave them to Nagato, though this would go against Tobi's statement, so something else must have happened with the Rinnegan.
This sounds great but I'm with you with the using Izanagi against the 1st Hokage and taking obitos other eye, that explains that and he used his right eye to use Izanagi against Konan and stole Nagatos rinnegan, but if I'm not quite sure about the whole "Madara has rinnegan" theory with that, because either he merges with Obito and he keeps the 2 sharingan that we see Tobi have or else he didn't need Izanagi to survive against the 1st.. Unless he figured out how to activate 1 rinnegan and then turned it back into Sharingan somehow when merging with obito but it doesn't make much sense. The whole giving birth to nagato and the Uchiha + Senju DNA thing makes more sense and he probably used Genjustu to get the guys to kill Nagatos parents "by accident" ("mistaken for the enemy") to get him to awaken the Rinnegan. He wanted Nagato to have Rinnegan to control him and eventually get him to revive the "real" madara and then steal his Rinnegans or something. But that doesn't explain how Madara can automatically activate rinnegan.
This whole thing is awfully cluttered when we try to take into account Madara having Senju DNA and can activate Rinnegan when he was revived.. Maybe he transplanted his mind into Obito Orochimaru style and his body with infused with Zetsu Senju DNA so when he revived with his full mind he also has both DNAs and therefore can activate the rinnegan. We already know that if you die without your eyes you still resurrect with them, thus cloning the eyes. (Itachi.)
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Could be just Madara survives 1st fight with the 1st hides -> somehow extends with life -> sets things in motion (like giving his rinnegan to Nagato -> saves Obito and starts training him/ tells him his plan -> then dies. Its not that hard to conceive of Madara surviving for quite some time after his battle and being heavily involved in Obito's life after Obito "died".
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Holy shit. I feel like having watched the anime up until a few weeks ago I've missed a shit ton of depth. Some of the stuff you guys are referencing I don't remember from the Anime episodes I've seen. As an explanation I only started reading the manga based off of where I was in the Anime. So my first manga chapter was when Bee and Naruto break out of the island to join the war. Prior to that I only watched the Anime.
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Nah, just takes re reading and analysis, nothing much to do with anime vs manga.
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On August 30 2012 07:23 Slayer91 wrote:
Nah, just takes re reading and analysis, nothing much to do with anime vs manga.
Although the manga is quite a bit ahead of the anime both by the virtue of the intended filler arcs as a means of taking up time/space so that ideas are fleshed out more in the manga before the anime makes some non-canon/weird decisions.
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On August 30 2012 07:23 Slayer91 wrote:
Nah, just takes re reading and analysis, nothing much to do with anime vs manga.
Lol well it's still some crazy depth. Maybe I should rewatch the Anime or read the Manga from further back. I feel like I must have missed soooooo much despite having seen every current episode of the anime, barring some stupid filler episodes.
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EPT
