|
uhh no I didnt mean just his own, I mean all of them. Still the 9 tails supposedly has the most issues out of the lot, theyve been developing that for a while even before when the 8 and 9 argue, also its not like all 9 or whatever were conveniently put together. A messiah doesnt save one person, he saves everyone thats what Naruto is supposed to be doing anyway. And I dont know if you noticed but its not like Kurama wasnt trying every chance he got for the past decade to get rid of Naruto, seems to me like you just want a reason to dislike whats happening right even though there are probably bigger potential inconsistencies prior to this event and frankly its riddled with them. So they communicate ? So what ? My point still stands,
just because you can talk to each other doesnt mean you will be able to solve the problem maybe this was the first time based on circumstance and our hero and what not that this is happening. But whatever it does really look like your actively looking for excuses now and saying the same thing over and over. Besides its not just through conversation hes actually done shit leading up to it now that I think about it.
Its uninteresting because its the same old selfless friendship loving messianic figure saving the world, changing the misunderstood and kicking the shit out of bat shit insane/evil. Thats what happens in all of them, pretty lame to start complaining about it now..
|
A lot of the recent plot developments confound me. On a note unrelated to the most recent chapter, can someone explain to me why kabutomaru is capable of resurrecting people on that scale, and manipulating each one like some sort of chess master with seemingly infinite range? Is there a good reason for where that power came from that I forgot/overlooked? It really seems like a contrived way to solve a problem best summed up as the author saying "Oh crap! I don't actually have any villains left to validate calling this encounter a 'war'."
|
On February 02 2012 14:31 ddrddrddrddr wrote:
I thought the tailed beasts are giant balls of energy that radiates destruction. The Naruto wiki states...
...Here we see the beasts humanized and personified. They seem to get along and are pretty human. They seem suddenly to have daddy issues and are talking to eachother like siblings. Where's the feral rage that we've become used to seeing? You can't tell me the tailed beasts have been mentally sound all this time and the entire ninja world has been totally oblivious to it. If people knew the beasts have such human personalities, then befriending them would have been hell of a lot more efficient than sealing them away and spending generations attempting to create vessels that can utilize their power. They would be more like a summoned pet like the frogs and slugs and snakes and what not. I really don't like how the beasts are being portrayed.
If you see that a wiki conflicts with the manga, your first step should be to check the wiki's sources. And in this instance, it's based off a single page of the manga in which Deidara claims that Shukaku is too dumb to use his power effectively. He didn't say that he has no personality, or that he could only behave in a feral manner. In fact, there are numerous points in the series where we see the Bijuu behaving otherwise. So I don't think there's any justification to the claim that the manga is inconsistent with itself here. At most, it's inconsistent with a wiki compiled by random people on the internet.
As for why people haven't tried befriending the beasts in the past, that's like asking why they didn't simply befriend Akatsuki. Just because a being is capable of understanding your language doesn't mean it wants to be your friend. The Bijuu have consistently terrorized the world, killing thousands of ninja, and engendering much hatred from their relatives. They're also insanely powerful. Who the hell is going to walk up to a Bijuu and try to befriend it? You're probably more focused on, you know, not dying.
There's also no reason to befriend the Bijuu if you can simply use them to create Jinchuuriki, binding them to a person's will whether they like it or not. And it's not simply a matter of befriending the Bijuu -- Naruto's mom was never overtly cruel to Kurama, and from this chapter it looks like some other Jinchuuriki had decent relations with their Bijuu as well. But as Kurama said earlier, "No matter what they say, they're all saying the same thing." They all just wanted to control and limit the Bijuu. Naruto is the only one who genuinely cared about helping them for their own sake.
You could argue that someone else might have tried that at some point. And you're right, Bee did. But remember that not many people get to become Jinchuuriki, and most of those who do probably buy into the whole, "This monster inside is pure evil" stereotype.
On February 02 2012 15:49 SetStndbySmn wrote:
A lot of the recent plot developments confound me. On a note unrelated to the most recent chapter, can someone explain to me why kabutomaru is capable of resurrecting people on that scale, and manipulating each one like some sort of chess master with seemingly infinite range? Is there a good reason for where that power came from that I forgot/overlooked? It really seems like a contrived way to solve a problem best summed up as the author saying "Oh crap! I don't actually have any villains left to validate calling this encounter a 'war'."
The technique that Kabuto is using has existed for decades. It was created by the Second Hokage, learned by Orochimaru, and eventually perfected by Kabuto. The difficulty of the technique lies with (a) the research behind it, (b) gathering DNA samples from prominent ninja, (c) acquiring live sacrifices, and (d) the chakra used for the initial summoning. You don't actually have to control the movements of each summon: you can simply give them orders and they will obey, provided you use a certain seal. This explains why Kabuto can control so many at once.
However, there is a chance that they will overpower your orders, in which case you must forcibly use chakra to control them. This has happened to Kabuto a couple of times. He stated that he's using the extra chakra from Orochimaru to manage this, but that he's unsure of the limits of such an approach.
Also, this would have been a war without or without Kabuto's summons, because Tobi had an army of 100,000 white Zetsus. (By comparison, the Allied Shinobi forces are only 80,000 strong.) In addition, he has himself, 7 tailed beasts, the Gedo statue, Sasuke, etc. Most of Kabuto's summons accomplished exactly 0, so it's difficult to say if his lack of involvement would've changed the end result of the war. And I doubt Tobi's plan relies on completely winning the war, anyway.
|
On February 02 2012 16:25 Courthead wrote:
Also, this would have been a war without or without Kabuto's summons, because Tobi had an army of 100,000 white Zetsus. (By comparison, the Allied Shinobi forces are only 80,000 strong.) In addition, he has himself, 7 tailed beasts, the Gedo statue, Sasuke, etc. Most of Kabuto's summons accomplished exactly 0, so it's difficult to say if his lack of involvement would've changed the end result of the war. And I doubt Tobi's plan relies on completely winning the war, anyway.
I mean that it's contrived from a writing perspective. If kabuto wasn't involved with his zombies I can guarantee it wouldn't be written as a war to begin with because the idea of the entire premise of the final arc being an allied shinobi war against an army of 100,000 half bodies of plant men is silly; it sounds stupid just saying it. The writer wanted a war. A naturally flowing story would just have two large and dynamic forces fighting each other to achieve this. The author of this story set the stage for his war by creating 'depth' and 'scale' for the enemy in two starkly different plot devices- i.e. he made a dynamic force with varying abilities through kabuto, and just padded the numbers of their roster with a bazillion plant men.
Also, the summons were most of the trouble- every time there was a serious problem in the war it was because of something one of kabuto's summons was doing, barring the impersonations problem with zetsu.
|
On February 02 2012 16:25 Courthead wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2012 14:31 ddrddrddrddr wrote:
I thought the tailed beasts are giant balls of energy that radiates destruction. The Naruto wiki states...
...Here we see the beasts humanized and personified. They seem to get along and are pretty human. They seem suddenly to have daddy issues and are talking to eachother like siblings. Where's the feral rage that we've become used to seeing? You can't tell me the tailed beasts have been mentally sound all this time and the entire ninja world has been totally oblivious to it. If people knew the beasts have such human personalities, then befriending them would have been hell of a lot more efficient than sealing them away and spending generations attempting to create vessels that can utilize their power. They would be more like a summoned pet like the frogs and slugs and snakes and what not. I really don't like how the beasts are being portrayed. If you see that a wiki conflicts with the manga, your first step should be to check the wiki's sources. And in this instance, it's based off a single page of the manga in which Deidara claims that Shukaku is too dumb to use his power effectively. He didn't say that he has no personality, or that he could only behave in a feral manner. In fact, there are numerous points in the series where we see the Bijuu behaving otherwise. So I don't think there's any justification to the claim that the manga is inconsistent with itself here. At most, it's inconsistent with a wiki compiled by random people on the internet. As for why people haven't tried befriending the beasts in the past, that's like asking why they didn't simply befriend Akatsuki. Just because a being is capable of understanding your language doesn't mean it wants to be your friend. The Bijuu have consistently terrorized the world, killing thousands of ninja, and engendering much hatred from their relatives. They're also insanely powerful. Who the hell is going to walk up to a Bijuu and try to befriend it? You're probably more focused on, you know, not dying. There's also no reason to befriend the Bijuu if you can simply use them to create Jinchuuriki, binding them to a person's will whether they like it or not. And it's not simply a matter of befriending the Bijuu -- Naruto's mom was never overtly cruel to Kurama, and from this chapter it looks like some other Jinchuuriki had decent relations with their Bijuu as well. But as Kurama said earlier, "No matter what they say, they're all saying the same thing." They all just wanted to control and limit the Bijuu. Naruto is the only one who genuinely cared about helping them for their own sake. You could argue that someone else might have tried that at some point. And you're right, Bee did. But remember that not many people get to become Jinchuuriki, and most of those who do probably buy into the whole, "This monster inside is pure evil" stereotype.
Just ignore the wiki. My arguments doesn't even need information from the wiki.
Just about every single one of the Akatsuki's spoken with and have interacted with the person they had to fight against, and even though they've had to fight, their back story are explained. And these are known criminals who really don't have a need to explain themselves. On the other hand you have creatures being mistreated because they're used and misunderstood, you don't think they have a huge bloody incentive to try and tell their story? These beasts do not seem to be evil criminals like Akatsuki, so if there is any level of understanding, how would anyone help but sympathize? Every fight comes with further understanding of the characters, apparently the beasts get no such benefit. Even if they're super powerful, they're sentient, which makes them no different from summoned creatures. That makes them no less difficult to befriend. Remember Manda? That snake requires human sacrifices when he's pissed off, but still was able to have a working relationship with oorochimaru.
Imagine if you're the Shushaku, and you were suddenly freed because the prison you were in went to sleep, would you bother trying to pick a fight? I don't know about you but I'd trying to solidify my freedom by getting the hell away from everybody and everything that's been responsible to figure out how to keep that kid asleep. But noooo, he's too dumb. Well, then it makes sense, if he's dumb and feral, as all the beasts SHOULD be, then the story up until now makes perfect sense! It makes sense that beasts would take control of their Jinchuuriki, be it Gaara, or Naruto, and kill everything in sight like like they're insane.
As for the Jinchuurikis, Kurama can't just be emo like that. The beasts are aware of what's going on with the jinchuurikis. EVEN IF the Jinchuurikis don't initiate communications, the beasts sure as hell should start a dialogue if their masters turn out to be good people. The fox have spoken with Naruto many times, and he knows Naruto's character what he's done with Sasuke and Gaara. He never reacted to Naruto's charm until now? That makes so little sense it's confounding. Plus Garra's beast was sealed when he's just a child, so presumably other beasts have had the opportunity as well. You're going to tell me every single one of those beasts are too dumb to realize that they can easily establish a friendship with these kids, some who do not even know the nature of what they're holding, and most shunned by society and in dire need of friendship? Does that make any sense at all?
Excluding this chapter, there's only one way this could make any sense. The beasts need to all be very different, with the 8 tails being the more friendly of the bunch, the one tail being bat shit insane, and Kurama being quite evil by nature but was inspired by Naruto. The rest should have their own traits but tending toward mentally unstable or combative. This way, people's fear of the beasts would be justfieid.
|
On February 02 2012 17:40 ddrddrddrddr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2012 16:25 Courthead wrote:On February 02 2012 14:31 ddrddrddrddr wrote:
I thought the tailed beasts are giant balls of energy that radiates destruction. The Naruto wiki states...
...Here we see the beasts humanized and personified. They seem to get along and are pretty human. They seem suddenly to have daddy issues and are talking to eachother like siblings. Where's the feral rage that we've become used to seeing? You can't tell me the tailed beasts have been mentally sound all this time and the entire ninja world has been totally oblivious to it. If people knew the beasts have such human personalities, then befriending them would have been hell of a lot more efficient than sealing them away and spending generations attempting to create vessels that can utilize their power. They would be more like a summoned pet like the frogs and slugs and snakes and what not. I really don't like how the beasts are being portrayed. If you see that a wiki conflicts with the manga, your first step should be to check the wiki's sources. And in this instance, it's based off a single page of the manga in which Deidara claims that Shukaku is too dumb to use his power effectively. He didn't say that he has no personality, or that he could only behave in a feral manner. In fact, there are numerous points in the series where we see the Bijuu behaving otherwise. So I don't think there's any justification to the claim that the manga is inconsistent with itself here. At most, it's inconsistent with a wiki compiled by random people on the internet. As for why people haven't tried befriending the beasts in the past, that's like asking why they didn't simply befriend Akatsuki. Just because a being is capable of understanding your language doesn't mean it wants to be your friend. The Bijuu have consistently terrorized the world, killing thousands of ninja, and engendering much hatred from their relatives. They're also insanely powerful. Who the hell is going to walk up to a Bijuu and try to befriend it? You're probably more focused on, you know, not dying. There's also no reason to befriend the Bijuu if you can simply use them to create Jinchuuriki, binding them to a person's will whether they like it or not. And it's not simply a matter of befriending the Bijuu -- Naruto's mom was never overtly cruel to Kurama, and from this chapter it looks like some other Jinchuuriki had decent relations with their Bijuu as well. But as Kurama said earlier, "No matter what they say, they're all saying the same thing." They all just wanted to control and limit the Bijuu. Naruto is the only one who genuinely cared about helping them for their own sake. You could argue that someone else might have tried that at some point. And you're right, Bee did. But remember that not many people get to become Jinchuuriki, and most of those who do probably buy into the whole, "This monster inside is pure evil" stereotype. Just ignore the wiki. My arguments doesn't even need information from the wiki. Just about every single one of the Akatsuki's spoken with and have interacted with the person they had to fight against, and even though they've had to fight, their back story are explained. And these are known criminals who really don't have a need to explain themselves. On the other hand you have creatures being mistreated because they're used and misunderstood, you don't think they have a huge bloody incentive to try and tell their story? These beasts do not seem to be evil criminals like Akatsuki, so if there is any level of understanding, how would anyone help but sympathize? Every fight comes with further understanding of the characters, apparently the beasts get no such benefit. Even if they're super powerful, they're sentient, which makes them no different from summoned creatures. That makes them no less difficult to befriend. Remember Manda? That snake requires human sacrifices when he's pissed off, but still was able to have a working relationship with oorochimaru. Imagine if you're the Shushaku, and you were suddenly freed because the prison you were in went to sleep, would you bother trying to pick a fight? I don't know about you but I'd trying to solidify my freedom by getting the hell away from everybody and everything that's been responsible to figure out how to keep that kid asleep. But noooo, he's too dumb. Well, then it makes sense, if he's dumb and feral, as all the beasts SHOULD be, then the story up until now makes perfect sense! It makes sense that beasts would take control of their Jinchuuriki, be it Gaara, or Naruto, and kill everything in sight like like they're insane. As for the Jinchuurikis, Kurama can't just be emo like that. The beasts are aware of what's going on with the jinchuurikis. EVEN IF the Jinchuurikis don't initiate communications, the beasts sure as hell should start a dialogue if their masters turn out to be good people. The fox have spoken with Naruto many times, and he knows Naruto's character what he's done with Sasuke and Gaara. He never reacted to Naruto's charm until now? That makes so little sense it's confounding. Plus Garra's beast was sealed when he's just a child, so presumably other beasts have had the opportunity as well. You're going to tell me every single one of those beasts are too dumb to realize that they can easily establish a friendship with these kids, some who do not even know the nature of what they're holding, and most shunned by society and in dire need of friendship? Does that make any sense at all? Excluding this chapter, there's only one way this could make any sense. The beasts need to all be very different, with the 8 tails being the more friendly of the bunch, the one tail being bat shit insane, and Kurama being quite evil by nature but was inspired by Naruto. The rest should have their own traits but tending toward mentally unstable or combative. This way, people's fear of the beasts would be justfieid.
The beasts are incredibly jaded. It is understandable that it would take an enormous amount of proof to show them that there are humans who dont just seek their power. You label the jinchuuriki as the master of the beast but that is the exact problem. Naruto isnt the 9tails master, he is its friend. The master-servant mentality is the exact reason why they hate humans and refuse to expose themselves.
|
All i want to chime in here is that all 9 tail beasts in their youth are pretty adorable, heh
|
On February 02 2012 17:46 Spicy_Curry wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2012 17:40 ddrddrddrddr wrote:On February 02 2012 16:25 Courthead wrote:On February 02 2012 14:31 ddrddrddrddr wrote:
I thought the tailed beasts are giant balls of energy that radiates destruction. The Naruto wiki states...
...Here we see the beasts humanized and personified. They seem to get along and are pretty human. They seem suddenly to have daddy issues and are talking to eachother like siblings. Where's the feral rage that we've become used to seeing? You can't tell me the tailed beasts have been mentally sound all this time and the entire ninja world has been totally oblivious to it. If people knew the beasts have such human personalities, then befriending them would have been hell of a lot more efficient than sealing them away and spending generations attempting to create vessels that can utilize their power. They would be more like a summoned pet like the frogs and slugs and snakes and what not. I really don't like how the beasts are being portrayed. If you see that a wiki conflicts with the manga, your first step should be to check the wiki's sources. And in this instance, it's based off a single page of the manga in which Deidara claims that Shukaku is too dumb to use his power effectively. He didn't say that he has no personality, or that he could only behave in a feral manner. In fact, there are numerous points in the series where we see the Bijuu behaving otherwise. So I don't think there's any justification to the claim that the manga is inconsistent with itself here. At most, it's inconsistent with a wiki compiled by random people on the internet. As for why people haven't tried befriending the beasts in the past, that's like asking why they didn't simply befriend Akatsuki. Just because a being is capable of understanding your language doesn't mean it wants to be your friend. The Bijuu have consistently terrorized the world, killing thousands of ninja, and engendering much hatred from their relatives. They're also insanely powerful. Who the hell is going to walk up to a Bijuu and try to befriend it? You're probably more focused on, you know, not dying. There's also no reason to befriend the Bijuu if you can simply use them to create Jinchuuriki, binding them to a person's will whether they like it or not. And it's not simply a matter of befriending the Bijuu -- Naruto's mom was never overtly cruel to Kurama, and from this chapter it looks like some other Jinchuuriki had decent relations with their Bijuu as well. But as Kurama said earlier, "No matter what they say, they're all saying the same thing." They all just wanted to control and limit the Bijuu. Naruto is the only one who genuinely cared about helping them for their own sake. You could argue that someone else might have tried that at some point. And you're right, Bee did. But remember that not many people get to become Jinchuuriki, and most of those who do probably buy into the whole, "This monster inside is pure evil" stereotype. Just ignore the wiki. My arguments doesn't even need information from the wiki. Just about every single one of the Akatsuki's spoken with and have interacted with the person they had to fight against, and even though they've had to fight, their back story are explained. And these are known criminals who really don't have a need to explain themselves. On the other hand you have creatures being mistreated because they're used and misunderstood, you don't think they have a huge bloody incentive to try and tell their story? These beasts do not seem to be evil criminals like Akatsuki, so if there is any level of understanding, how would anyone help but sympathize? Every fight comes with further understanding of the characters, apparently the beasts get no such benefit. Even if they're super powerful, they're sentient, which makes them no different from summoned creatures. That makes them no less difficult to befriend. Remember Manda? That snake requires human sacrifices when he's pissed off, but still was able to have a working relationship with oorochimaru. Imagine if you're the Shushaku, and you were suddenly freed because the prison you were in went to sleep, would you bother trying to pick a fight? I don't know about you but I'd trying to solidify my freedom by getting the hell away from everybody and everything that's been responsible to figure out how to keep that kid asleep. But noooo, he's too dumb. Well, then it makes sense, if he's dumb and feral, as all the beasts SHOULD be, then the story up until now makes perfect sense! It makes sense that beasts would take control of their Jinchuuriki, be it Gaara, or Naruto, and kill everything in sight like like they're insane. As for the Jinchuurikis, Kurama can't just be emo like that. The beasts are aware of what's going on with the jinchuurikis. EVEN IF the Jinchuurikis don't initiate communications, the beasts sure as hell should start a dialogue if their masters turn out to be good people. The fox have spoken with Naruto many times, and he knows Naruto's character what he's done with Sasuke and Gaara. He never reacted to Naruto's charm until now? That makes so little sense it's confounding. Plus Garra's beast was sealed when he's just a child, so presumably other beasts have had the opportunity as well. You're going to tell me every single one of those beasts are too dumb to realize that they can easily establish a friendship with these kids, some who do not even know the nature of what they're holding, and most shunned by society and in dire need of friendship? Does that make any sense at all? Excluding this chapter, there's only one way this could make any sense. The beasts need to all be very different, with the 8 tails being the more friendly of the bunch, the one tail being bat shit insane, and Kurama being quite evil by nature but was inspired by Naruto. The rest should have their own traits but tending toward mentally unstable or combative. This way, people's fear of the beasts would be justfieid. The beasts are incredibly jaded. It is understandable that it would take an enormous amount of proof to show them that there are humans who dont just seek their power. You label the jinchuuriki as the master of the beast but that is the exact problem. Naruto isnt the 9tails master, he is its friend. The master-servant mentality is the exact reason why they hate humans and refuse to expose themselves.
Really? Because Pokemon make ninjas look like Mr. Rogers.
Also, the best way to try and change the master/slave relationship is through communication. It's not understandable at all that they would not have figured out by now that being emo gets them nowhere and the only way they can possibly come out on top of the situation is to make a friend.
|
I'm a bit scared of the role Sasuke is going to play, I really don't want Kishimoto to make him just show up and beat Naruto until his next powerup after we just saw how powerful he has become.
|
I honestly wouldn't mind if the final showdown between Naruto and Sasuke is just 3 chapters of Naruto kicking the shit out of him.
|
On February 02 2012 18:53 NeonFox wrote:
I'm a bit scared of the role Sasuke is going to play, I really don't want Kishimoto to make him just show up and beat Naruto until his next powerup after we just saw how powerful he has become.
I thought sharingans can alter reality. Now he can't even go blind using that power. If this is the case would it really matter how strong Naruto is? It'll be like naruto becoming godlike with super smash bros, then sasuke comes over and smash the wii.
|
On February 02 2012 18:56 Zim23 wrote:
I honestly wouldn't mind if the final showdown between Naruto and Sasuke is just 3 chapters of Naruto kicking the shit out of him.
LOL me either
|
On February 02 2012 18:56 Zim23 wrote:
I honestly wouldn't mind if the final showdown between Naruto and Sasuke is just 3 chapters of Naruto kicking the shit out of him.
I am cool with this.
|
+ Show Spoiler +On February 02 2012 17:40 ddrddrddrddr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2012 16:25 Courthead wrote:On February 02 2012 14:31 ddrddrddrddr wrote:
I thought the tailed beasts are giant balls of energy that radiates destruction. The Naruto wiki states...
...Here we see the beasts humanized and personified. They seem to get along and are pretty human. They seem suddenly to have daddy issues and are talking to eachother like siblings. Where's the feral rage that we've become used to seeing? You can't tell me the tailed beasts have been mentally sound all this time and the entire ninja world has been totally oblivious to it. If people knew the beasts have such human personalities, then befriending them would have been hell of a lot more efficient than sealing them away and spending generations attempting to create vessels that can utilize their power. They would be more like a summoned pet like the frogs and slugs and snakes and what not. I really don't like how the beasts are being portrayed. If you see that a wiki conflicts with the manga, your first step should be to check the wiki's sources. And in this instance, it's based off a single page of the manga in which Deidara claims that Shukaku is too dumb to use his power effectively. He didn't say that he has no personality, or that he could only behave in a feral manner. In fact, there are numerous points in the series where we see the Bijuu behaving otherwise. So I don't think there's any justification to the claim that the manga is inconsistent with itself here. At most, it's inconsistent with a wiki compiled by random people on the internet. As for why people haven't tried befriending the beasts in the past, that's like asking why they didn't simply befriend Akatsuki. Just because a being is capable of understanding your language doesn't mean it wants to be your friend. The Bijuu have consistently terrorized the world, killing thousands of ninja, and engendering much hatred from their relatives. They're also insanely powerful. Who the hell is going to walk up to a Bijuu and try to befriend it? You're probably more focused on, you know, not dying. There's also no reason to befriend the Bijuu if you can simply use them to create Jinchuuriki, binding them to a person's will whether they like it or not. And it's not simply a matter of befriending the Bijuu -- Naruto's mom was never overtly cruel to Kurama, and from this chapter it looks like some other Jinchuuriki had decent relations with their Bijuu as well. But as Kurama said earlier, "No matter what they say, they're all saying the same thing." They all just wanted to control and limit the Bijuu. Naruto is the only one who genuinely cared about helping them for their own sake. You could argue that someone else might have tried that at some point. And you're right, Bee did. But remember that not many people get to become Jinchuuriki, and most of those who do probably buy into the whole, "This monster inside is pure evil" stereotype. Just ignore the wiki. My arguments doesn't even need information from the wiki. Just about every single one of the Akatsuki's spoken with and have interacted with the person they had to fight against, and even though they've had to fight, their back story are explained. And these are known criminals who really don't have a need to explain themselves. On the other hand you have creatures being mistreated because they're used and misunderstood, you don't think they have a huge bloody incentive to try and tell their story? These beasts do not seem to be evil criminals like Akatsuki, so if there is any level of understanding, how would anyone help but sympathize? Every fight comes with further understanding of the characters, apparently the beasts get no such benefit. Even if they're super powerful, they're sentient, which makes them no different from summoned creatures. That makes them no less difficult to befriend. Remember Manda? That snake requires human sacrifices when he's pissed off, but still was able to have a working relationship with oorochimaru. Imagine if you're the Shushaku, and you were suddenly freed because the prison you were in went to sleep, would you bother trying to pick a fight? I don't know about you but I'd trying to solidify my freedom by getting the hell away from everybody and everything that's been responsible to figure out how to keep that kid asleep. But noooo, he's too dumb. Well, then it makes sense, if he's dumb and feral, as all the beasts SHOULD be, then the story up until now makes perfect sense! It makes sense that beasts would take control of their Jinchuuriki, be it Gaara, or Naruto, and kill everything in sight like like they're insane. As for the Jinchuurikis, Kurama can't just be emo like that. The beasts are aware of what's going on with the jinchuurikis. EVEN IF the Jinchuurikis don't initiate communications, the beasts sure as hell should start a dialogue if their masters turn out to be good people. The fox have spoken with Naruto many times, and he knows Naruto's character what he's done with Sasuke and Gaara. He never reacted to Naruto's charm until now? That makes so little sense it's confounding. Plus Garra's beast was sealed when he's just a child, so presumably other beasts have had the opportunity as well. You're going to tell me every single one of those beasts are too dumb to realize that they can easily establish a friendship with these kids, some who do not even know the nature of what they're holding, and most shunned by society and in dire need of friendship? Does that make any sense at all? Excluding this chapter, there's only one way this could make any sense. The beasts need to all be very different, with the 8 tails being the more friendly of the bunch, the one tail being bat shit insane, and Kurama being quite evil by nature but was inspired by Naruto. The rest should have their own traits but tending toward mentally unstable or combative. This way, people's fear of the beasts would be justfieid.
Well I think it can be simplified in this manner.
At the beginning, the Bijuu didn't have jinchuurikis, hence they appear in their full size/scale which is huge. The people (ninjas included) would be on the defensive/offensive if and when they encounter them. Once the knowledge reached these ninjas that these Bijuu could be tapped for their immense power, they went about finding a way to seal these creates thus creating the Jinchuurikis. Now, if you were trapped against your will, wouldn't you feel violated? That you had no choice in the matter? Second, if you were one of the first Jinchuurikis, surely you would be party to the "clans" intentions to seal and use this immense power hence you would not be in a considerate/listening mood to the pleas of the Bijuus.
Now, for whatever purpose a Bijuu were to have chance to escape from their Jinchuurikis like from Gaara sleeping, then the normal instinct is to flee. However, surely in the course of your fleeing, your captors would try to stop you, hence, battle ensues. Now, Bijuu getting loose from their Jinchuuriki surely happened in the past, therefore, this was not a unique case for Gaara, nor could it be counted as the first.
Therefore, you could safely assume that repeated attempts at escaping have proven to be futile, and therefore, you must resort to fighting.
In one instance of this chapter or the previous one, Son (4-tails) was shown to be in contact with his Jinchuuriki but they weren't really friends. It was shown however that he Jinchuuriki respected "it" to a certain degree through the statement of "never forgetting Son's name".
As for why Naruto seems to be the "chosen one", well I could simply say that this is simply a coincidence because this is one of the few, maybe only, instance where all the 9 tailed beasts are together and where they are all in agreement to let the chosen individual into the inner most conciousness of the tailed beast (thus making Naruto the most unique among all the individuals (jinchuurikis or not) after all the instances that have been laid to make it happen).
Cheers!
|
On February 02 2012 20:38 17Sphynx17 wrote:
As for why Naruto seems to be the "chosen one", well I could simply say that this is simply a coincidence because this is one of the few, maybe only, instance where all the 9 tailed beasts are together and where they are all in agreement to let the chosen individual into the inner most conciousness of the tailed beast (thus making Naruto the most unique among all the individuals (jinchuurikis or not) after all the instances that have been laid to make it happen).
I generally look at 'chosen one' situations in various manga/anime/shows in the same way. Konohamaru could've easily been the chosen one.... and then the manga would be called Konohamaru and Naruto would just be another character that you run into. Naruto, for this world, is the 'chosen one' and thus why he's the main character of the story told. To make it easier, if need be, you could assume that it's basically a history lesson/fairy tale of past events - such stories often follow whoever was significant at the end, even if they weren't very impressive at the beginning.
Or you can just say 'lolshonens, main character is the manga's Jesus as usual' like a lot people.
|
On February 02 2012 20:38 17Sphynx17 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On February 02 2012 17:40 ddrddrddrddr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2012 16:25 Courthead wrote:On February 02 2012 14:31 ddrddrddrddr wrote:
I thought the tailed beasts are giant balls of energy that radiates destruction. The Naruto wiki states...
...Here we see the beasts humanized and personified. They seem to get along and are pretty human. They seem suddenly to have daddy issues and are talking to eachother like siblings. Where's the feral rage that we've become used to seeing? You can't tell me the tailed beasts have been mentally sound all this time and the entire ninja world has been totally oblivious to it. If people knew the beasts have such human personalities, then befriending them would have been hell of a lot more efficient than sealing them away and spending generations attempting to create vessels that can utilize their power. They would be more like a summoned pet like the frogs and slugs and snakes and what not. I really don't like how the beasts are being portrayed. If you see that a wiki conflicts with the manga, your first step should be to check the wiki's sources. And in this instance, it's based off a single page of the manga in which Deidara claims that Shukaku is too dumb to use his power effectively. He didn't say that he has no personality, or that he could only behave in a feral manner. In fact, there are numerous points in the series where we see the Bijuu behaving otherwise. So I don't think there's any justification to the claim that the manga is inconsistent with itself here. At most, it's inconsistent with a wiki compiled by random people on the internet. As for why people haven't tried befriending the beasts in the past, that's like asking why they didn't simply befriend Akatsuki. Just because a being is capable of understanding your language doesn't mean it wants to be your friend. The Bijuu have consistently terrorized the world, killing thousands of ninja, and engendering much hatred from their relatives. They're also insanely powerful. Who the hell is going to walk up to a Bijuu and try to befriend it? You're probably more focused on, you know, not dying. There's also no reason to befriend the Bijuu if you can simply use them to create Jinchuuriki, binding them to a person's will whether they like it or not. And it's not simply a matter of befriending the Bijuu -- Naruto's mom was never overtly cruel to Kurama, and from this chapter it looks like some other Jinchuuriki had decent relations with their Bijuu as well. But as Kurama said earlier, "No matter what they say, they're all saying the same thing." They all just wanted to control and limit the Bijuu. Naruto is the only one who genuinely cared about helping them for their own sake. You could argue that someone else might have tried that at some point. And you're right, Bee did. But remember that not many people get to become Jinchuuriki, and most of those who do probably buy into the whole, "This monster inside is pure evil" stereotype. Just ignore the wiki. My arguments doesn't even need information from the wiki. Just about every single one of the Akatsuki's spoken with and have interacted with the person they had to fight against, and even though they've had to fight, their back story are explained. And these are known criminals who really don't have a need to explain themselves. On the other hand you have creatures being mistreated because they're used and misunderstood, you don't think they have a huge bloody incentive to try and tell their story? These beasts do not seem to be evil criminals like Akatsuki, so if there is any level of understanding, how would anyone help but sympathize? Every fight comes with further understanding of the characters, apparently the beasts get no such benefit. Even if they're super powerful, they're sentient, which makes them no different from summoned creatures. That makes them no less difficult to befriend. Remember Manda? That snake requires human sacrifices when he's pissed off, but still was able to have a working relationship with oorochimaru. Imagine if you're the Shushaku, and you were suddenly freed because the prison you were in went to sleep, would you bother trying to pick a fight? I don't know about you but I'd trying to solidify my freedom by getting the hell away from everybody and everything that's been responsible to figure out how to keep that kid asleep. But noooo, he's too dumb. Well, then it makes sense, if he's dumb and feral, as all the beasts SHOULD be, then the story up until now makes perfect sense! It makes sense that beasts would take control of their Jinchuuriki, be it Gaara, or Naruto, and kill everything in sight like like they're insane. As for the Jinchuurikis, Kurama can't just be emo like that. The beasts are aware of what's going on with the jinchuurikis. EVEN IF the Jinchuurikis don't initiate communications, the beasts sure as hell should start a dialogue if their masters turn out to be good people. The fox have spoken with Naruto many times, and he knows Naruto's character what he's done with Sasuke and Gaara. He never reacted to Naruto's charm until now? That makes so little sense it's confounding. Plus Garra's beast was sealed when he's just a child, so presumably other beasts have had the opportunity as well. You're going to tell me every single one of those beasts are too dumb to realize that they can easily establish a friendship with these kids, some who do not even know the nature of what they're holding, and most shunned by society and in dire need of friendship? Does that make any sense at all? Excluding this chapter, there's only one way this could make any sense. The beasts need to all be very different, with the 8 tails being the more friendly of the bunch, the one tail being bat shit insane, and Kurama being quite evil by nature but was inspired by Naruto. The rest should have their own traits but tending toward mentally unstable or combative. This way, people's fear of the beasts would be justfieid. Well I think it can be simplified in this manner. At the beginning, the Bijuu didn't have jinchuurikis, hence they appear in their full size/scale which is huge. The people (ninjas included) would be on the defensive/offensive if and when they encounter them. Once the knowledge reached these ninjas that these Bijuu could be tapped for their immense power, they went about finding a way to seal these creates thus creating the Jinchuurikis. Now, if you were trapped against your will, wouldn't you feel violated? That you had no choice in the matter? Second, if you were one of the first Jinchuurikis, surely you would be party to the "clans" intentions to seal and use this immense power hence you would not be in a considerate/listening mood to the pleas of the Bijuus. Now, for whatever purpose a Bijuu were to have chance to escape from their Jinchuurikis like from Gaara sleeping, then the normal instinct is to flee. However, surely in the course of your fleeing, your captors would try to stop you, hence, battle ensues. Now, Bijuu getting loose from their Jinchuuriki surely happened in the past, therefore, this was not a unique case for Gaara, nor could it be counted as the first. Therefore, you could safely assume that repeated attempts at escaping have proven to be futile, and therefore, you must resort to fighting. In one instance of this chapter or the previous one, Son (4-tails) was shown to be in contact with his Jinchuuriki but they weren't really friends. It was shown however that he Jinchuuriki respected "it" to a certain degree through the statement of "never forgetting Son's name". As for why Naruto seems to be the "chosen one", well I could simply say that this is simply a coincidence because this is one of the few, maybe only, instance where all the 9 tailed beasts are together and where they are all in agreement to let the chosen individual into the inner most conciousness of the tailed beast (thus making Naruto the most unique among all the individuals (jinchuurikis or not) after all the instances that have been laid to make it happen). Cheers!
Why trap them at all? Like the other creatures that aren't the Bijuus like the toads, summoning pacts or alliances could have been formed that would allow the Bijuus to willingly use their powers toward a common goal. They can be parlayed with, reasoned with. Sure, it's possible that the right circumstances occurred for some of them, but as it stands none of the bijuus are given freedom. Why seal them to use their power? They'll try and take over their host to kill everything in sight. You can't even tap into their full power unless the bijuus work with you like killerbee and naruto. That means there's a big incentive to befriend them, not just enslave them. Especially if you're pitting jinchuuriki vs jinchuuriki, it's likely the one that doesn't have to fight with their own bijuu would have a giant advantage. Even sealed, there's giant incentive to be on good terms with the beasts.
If we're going back to origins, don't you think that as siblings the bijuus would at least look out for eachother, especially when they are starting to get captured one by one? What are the chances that any amount of ninjas can take on several tailed beasts at once?
As for the futility of escape, considering that the beasts, even when sealed, are still conscious, I would be spending 24/7 on thinking about how I would escape the next time I get a chance to be out in the open. The way Shushaku acted, assuming he's not just rampaging due to a feral nature, was entirely unproductive. He was having fun fighting when the only ninjas that were around are rookie ninjas. Since he's conscious inside Gaara, he knows Konoha's under attack and that the higher level ninjas are currently preoccupied. If there's a good time to make an escape, that was a good one. Nine tails were sealed by the combined effort of a Kage level's life sacrifice and Naruto's mother who comes from a village known for seals. On top of that the seal had to be reinforced iirc by Jiraya. Either the beasts aren't as strong as they're made out to be, or they've not tried very hard to break free of servitude.
|
On February 02 2012 15:07 Rebs wrote:
You do realise the stuff in the wiki is taken from whatever is revealed in the manga ? Its pretty simple, the tailed beasts have had the same problems that an antagonist like say.. Nagato does, you know.. villain by circumstance. A pretty convenient motif for shounen manga. Thats where our hero comes in and does what no one ever tried to do thats why hes the hero. Thats precisely what the manga is trying to tell you, that after a probable period of strife with humans (and amongst themselves as ventured by the eight tails aswell) its just a broader longer lived story of what Naruto overcomes himself as a kid. Maybe at some point the boundaries drawn between them and humans had become so vast no one bothered to do it till Naruto, hence destined child etc etc. So no maybe the people they tied to werent assholes but neither they nor the beasts were inclined to improve relationships. Its not that unrealistic. I mean you could make the same argument to people going to war.. "why cant we just all talk it out and get along?" thats lazy and overly simplistic and unfortunately rarely happens even in real life, so why not here, where is the painful inconsistency ?
Its not particularly interesting but based on the kind of story its trying to tell its sound enough. Id just not overthink it, its not really worth it.
War usually happens after communications and talk fall down. What this manga is saying that even though the beasts had hosts to talk to and could express themselves whenever they wanted, and they never even tried. Instead, they went on a rampage. And what's worse, the manga implies that the tailed beasts actually grew up, and were babies at one point. Are you telling me from the moment of conception, no one ever thought "awe, he's so cute. I want to raise him and make them our friends". It was just war, right away.
|
It's Naruto fault for the nine tails release. Truth be told.
|
On February 03 2012 00:24 ddrddrddrddr wrote:
Why trap them at all? Like the other creatures that aren't the Bijuus like the toads, summoning pacts or alliances could have been formed that would allow the Bijuus to willingly use their powers toward a common goal. They can be parlayed with, reasoned with. Sure, it's possible that the right circumstances occurred for some of them, but as it stands none of the bijuus are given freedom. Why seal them to use their power? They'll try and take over their host to kill everything in sight. You can't even tap into their full power unless the bijuus work with you like killerbee and naruto. That means there's a big incentive to befriend them, not just enslave them. Especially if you're pitting jinchuuriki vs jinchuuriki, it's likely the one that doesn't have to fight with their own bijuu would have a giant advantage. Even sealed, there's giant incentive to be on good terms with the beasts.
The Bijuu are incredibly violent beasts who distrust humanity, and who have been raging against the inhabitants of Earth since they were the 10-tails. As I said earlier, who is going to try to befriend them?! You're too busy trying not to die. The only people in a position to talk to and befriend the tailed beasts are those who are already powerful enough to control them (Sage of 6 Paths, Mangekyou users, the First Hokage, and the Jinchuriiki).
Obviously nobody knew that you could befriend the beasts or reason with them. Bee was the first and only one to discover that. Still, the process is extremely dangerous and risky. You have to first erase all of your inner hatred. Then you have to defeat your beast in combat to steal its chakra and make it submit to you utterly. THEN you can try reasoning with it, and assuming you actually give a fuck about its well-being, it may decide to help you.
So the most logical decision given the known facts is to simply seal your beasts into Jinchuuriki.
On February 03 2012 00:24 ddrddrddrddr wrote:
If we're going back to origins, don't you think that as siblings the bijuus would at least look out for eachother, especially when they are starting to get captured one by one? What are the chances that any amount of ninjas can take on several tailed beasts at once?
There are thousands of examples of even human siblings fighting/hating/killing one another. I can't see a compelling reason why giant chakra beasts filled with hatred would be required to love one another at all times.
Also, the First Hokage did take on multiple beasts at once. He then captured them and distributed them to other villages so they could create Jinchuuriki. So the chances of that happening were 100% 
On February 03 2012 00:24 ddrddrddrddr wrote:
As for the futility of escape, considering that the beasts, even when sealed, are still conscious, I would be spending 24/7 on thinking about how I would escape the next time I get a chance to be out in the open. The way Shushaku acted, assuming he's not just rampaging due to a feral nature, was entirely unproductive. He was having fun fighting when the only ninjas that were around are rookie ninjas.
The beasts are basically immortal, and are filled with rage. They don't care about being productive. They don't seem to have any real goals. They just want to vent their hatred. Remember, the 10-tails was violent before anyone ever tried to seal him.
On February 03 2012 00:24 ddrddrddrddr wrote:
Since he's conscious inside Gaara, he knows Konoha's under attack and that the higher level ninjas are currently preoccupied. If there's a good time to make an escape, that was a good one. Nine tails were sealed by the combined effort of a Kage level's life sacrifice and Naruto's mother who comes from a village known for seals. On top of that the seal had to be reinforced iirc by Jiraya. Either the beasts aren't as strong as they're made out to be, or they've not tried very hard to break free of servitude.
Every village has its own sealing technique. These techniques are based on the original created by the Sage of the 6 Paths, and were designed SPECIFICALLY to keep the beasts sealed. I don't think they would design these seals in such a way that breaking them is simply a matter of physical strength. For a beast to escape, the host must die, the seal must be weakened/removed, or the host must allow it to happen.
|
On February 02 2012 18:12 ddrddrddrddr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2012 17:46 Spicy_Curry wrote:On February 02 2012 17:40 ddrddrddrddr wrote:On February 02 2012 16:25 Courthead wrote:On February 02 2012 14:31 ddrddrddrddr wrote:
I thought the tailed beasts are giant balls of energy that radiates destruction. The Naruto wiki states...
...Here we see the beasts humanized and personified. They seem to get along and are pretty human. They seem suddenly to have daddy issues and are talking to eachother like siblings. Where's the feral rage that we've become used to seeing? You can't tell me the tailed beasts have been mentally sound all this time and the entire ninja world has been totally oblivious to it. If people knew the beasts have such human personalities, then befriending them would have been hell of a lot more efficient than sealing them away and spending generations attempting to create vessels that can utilize their power. They would be more like a summoned pet like the frogs and slugs and snakes and what not. I really don't like how the beasts are being portrayed. If you see that a wiki conflicts with the manga, your first step should be to check the wiki's sources. And in this instance, it's based off a single page of the manga in which Deidara claims that Shukaku is too dumb to use his power effectively. He didn't say that he has no personality, or that he could only behave in a feral manner. In fact, there are numerous points in the series where we see the Bijuu behaving otherwise. So I don't think there's any justification to the claim that the manga is inconsistent with itself here. At most, it's inconsistent with a wiki compiled by random people on the internet. As for why people haven't tried befriending the beasts in the past, that's like asking why they didn't simply befriend Akatsuki. Just because a being is capable of understanding your language doesn't mean it wants to be your friend. The Bijuu have consistently terrorized the world, killing thousands of ninja, and engendering much hatred from their relatives. They're also insanely powerful. Who the hell is going to walk up to a Bijuu and try to befriend it? You're probably more focused on, you know, not dying. There's also no reason to befriend the Bijuu if you can simply use them to create Jinchuuriki, binding them to a person's will whether they like it or not. And it's not simply a matter of befriending the Bijuu -- Naruto's mom was never overtly cruel to Kurama, and from this chapter it looks like some other Jinchuuriki had decent relations with their Bijuu as well. But as Kurama said earlier, "No matter what they say, they're all saying the same thing." They all just wanted to control and limit the Bijuu. Naruto is the only one who genuinely cared about helping them for their own sake. You could argue that someone else might have tried that at some point. And you're right, Bee did. But remember that not many people get to become Jinchuuriki, and most of those who do probably buy into the whole, "This monster inside is pure evil" stereotype. Just ignore the wiki. My arguments doesn't even need information from the wiki. Just about every single one of the Akatsuki's spoken with and have interacted with the person they had to fight against, and even though they've had to fight, their back story are explained. And these are known criminals who really don't have a need to explain themselves. On the other hand you have creatures being mistreated because they're used and misunderstood, you don't think they have a huge bloody incentive to try and tell their story? These beasts do not seem to be evil criminals like Akatsuki, so if there is any level of understanding, how would anyone help but sympathize? Every fight comes with further understanding of the characters, apparently the beasts get no such benefit. Even if they're super powerful, they're sentient, which makes them no different from summoned creatures. That makes them no less difficult to befriend. Remember Manda? That snake requires human sacrifices when he's pissed off, but still was able to have a working relationship with oorochimaru. Imagine if you're the Shushaku, and you were suddenly freed because the prison you were in went to sleep, would you bother trying to pick a fight? I don't know about you but I'd trying to solidify my freedom by getting the hell away from everybody and everything that's been responsible to figure out how to keep that kid asleep. But noooo, he's too dumb. Well, then it makes sense, if he's dumb and feral, as all the beasts SHOULD be, then the story up until now makes perfect sense! It makes sense that beasts would take control of their Jinchuuriki, be it Gaara, or Naruto, and kill everything in sight like like they're insane. As for the Jinchuurikis, Kurama can't just be emo like that. The beasts are aware of what's going on with the jinchuurikis. EVEN IF the Jinchuurikis don't initiate communications, the beasts sure as hell should start a dialogue if their masters turn out to be good people. The fox have spoken with Naruto many times, and he knows Naruto's character what he's done with Sasuke and Gaara. He never reacted to Naruto's charm until now? That makes so little sense it's confounding. Plus Garra's beast was sealed when he's just a child, so presumably other beasts have had the opportunity as well. You're going to tell me every single one of those beasts are too dumb to realize that they can easily establish a friendship with these kids, some who do not even know the nature of what they're holding, and most shunned by society and in dire need of friendship? Does that make any sense at all? Excluding this chapter, there's only one way this could make any sense. The beasts need to all be very different, with the 8 tails being the more friendly of the bunch, the one tail being bat shit insane, and Kurama being quite evil by nature but was inspired by Naruto. The rest should have their own traits but tending toward mentally unstable or combative. This way, people's fear of the beasts would be justfieid. The beasts are incredibly jaded. It is understandable that it would take an enormous amount of proof to show them that there are humans who dont just seek their power. You label the jinchuuriki as the master of the beast but that is the exact problem. Naruto isnt the 9tails master, he is its friend. The master-servant mentality is the exact reason why they hate humans and refuse to expose themselves. Really? Because Pokemon make ninjas look like Mr. Rogers. Also, the best way to try and change the master/slave relationship is through communication. It's not understandable at all that they would not have figured out by now that being emo gets them nowhere and the only way they can possibly come out on top of the situation is to make a friend.
How do you befriend someone who doesnt listen to you? Honestly think about it like this. Tailed beast tells host lets be friends. I will give you all my power but in return you must allow me full access. If I was a jinchuruki I would be bat shit fucking crazy to listen to that. Also, who the hell is mr.rogers
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
