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On February 03 2012 06:12 Spicy_Curry wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2012 18:12 ddrddrddrddr wrote:On February 02 2012 17:46 Spicy_Curry wrote:On February 02 2012 17:40 ddrddrddrddr wrote:On February 02 2012 16:25 Courthead wrote:On February 02 2012 14:31 ddrddrddrddr wrote:
I thought the tailed beasts are giant balls of energy that radiates destruction. The Naruto wiki states...
...Here we see the beasts humanized and personified. They seem to get along and are pretty human. They seem suddenly to have daddy issues and are talking to eachother like siblings. Where's the feral rage that we've become used to seeing? You can't tell me the tailed beasts have been mentally sound all this time and the entire ninja world has been totally oblivious to it. If people knew the beasts have such human personalities, then befriending them would have been hell of a lot more efficient than sealing them away and spending generations attempting to create vessels that can utilize their power. They would be more like a summoned pet like the frogs and slugs and snakes and what not. I really don't like how the beasts are being portrayed. If you see that a wiki conflicts with the manga, your first step should be to check the wiki's sources. And in this instance, it's based off a single page of the manga in which Deidara claims that Shukaku is too dumb to use his power effectively. He didn't say that he has no personality, or that he could only behave in a feral manner. In fact, there are numerous points in the series where we see the Bijuu behaving otherwise. So I don't think there's any justification to the claim that the manga is inconsistent with itself here. At most, it's inconsistent with a wiki compiled by random people on the internet. As for why people haven't tried befriending the beasts in the past, that's like asking why they didn't simply befriend Akatsuki. Just because a being is capable of understanding your language doesn't mean it wants to be your friend. The Bijuu have consistently terrorized the world, killing thousands of ninja, and engendering much hatred from their relatives. They're also insanely powerful. Who the hell is going to walk up to a Bijuu and try to befriend it? You're probably more focused on, you know, not dying. There's also no reason to befriend the Bijuu if you can simply use them to create Jinchuuriki, binding them to a person's will whether they like it or not. And it's not simply a matter of befriending the Bijuu -- Naruto's mom was never overtly cruel to Kurama, and from this chapter it looks like some other Jinchuuriki had decent relations with their Bijuu as well. But as Kurama said earlier, "No matter what they say, they're all saying the same thing." They all just wanted to control and limit the Bijuu. Naruto is the only one who genuinely cared about helping them for their own sake. You could argue that someone else might have tried that at some point. And you're right, Bee did. But remember that not many people get to become Jinchuuriki, and most of those who do probably buy into the whole, "This monster inside is pure evil" stereotype. Just ignore the wiki. My arguments doesn't even need information from the wiki. Just about every single one of the Akatsuki's spoken with and have interacted with the person they had to fight against, and even though they've had to fight, their back story are explained. And these are known criminals who really don't have a need to explain themselves. On the other hand you have creatures being mistreated because they're used and misunderstood, you don't think they have a huge bloody incentive to try and tell their story? These beasts do not seem to be evil criminals like Akatsuki, so if there is any level of understanding, how would anyone help but sympathize? Every fight comes with further understanding of the characters, apparently the beasts get no such benefit. Even if they're super powerful, they're sentient, which makes them no different from summoned creatures. That makes them no less difficult to befriend. Remember Manda? That snake requires human sacrifices when he's pissed off, but still was able to have a working relationship with oorochimaru. Imagine if you're the Shushaku, and you were suddenly freed because the prison you were in went to sleep, would you bother trying to pick a fight? I don't know about you but I'd trying to solidify my freedom by getting the hell away from everybody and everything that's been responsible to figure out how to keep that kid asleep. But noooo, he's too dumb. Well, then it makes sense, if he's dumb and feral, as all the beasts SHOULD be, then the story up until now makes perfect sense! It makes sense that beasts would take control of their Jinchuuriki, be it Gaara, or Naruto, and kill everything in sight like like they're insane. As for the Jinchuurikis, Kurama can't just be emo like that. The beasts are aware of what's going on with the jinchuurikis. EVEN IF the Jinchuurikis don't initiate communications, the beasts sure as hell should start a dialogue if their masters turn out to be good people. The fox have spoken with Naruto many times, and he knows Naruto's character what he's done with Sasuke and Gaara. He never reacted to Naruto's charm until now? That makes so little sense it's confounding. Plus Garra's beast was sealed when he's just a child, so presumably other beasts have had the opportunity as well. You're going to tell me every single one of those beasts are too dumb to realize that they can easily establish a friendship with these kids, some who do not even know the nature of what they're holding, and most shunned by society and in dire need of friendship? Does that make any sense at all? Excluding this chapter, there's only one way this could make any sense. The beasts need to all be very different, with the 8 tails being the more friendly of the bunch, the one tail being bat shit insane, and Kurama being quite evil by nature but was inspired by Naruto. The rest should have their own traits but tending toward mentally unstable or combative. This way, people's fear of the beasts would be justfieid. The beasts are incredibly jaded. It is understandable that it would take an enormous amount of proof to show them that there are humans who dont just seek their power. You label the jinchuuriki as the master of the beast but that is the exact problem. Naruto isnt the 9tails master, he is its friend. The master-servant mentality is the exact reason why they hate humans and refuse to expose themselves. Really? Because Pokemon make ninjas look like Mr. Rogers. Also, the best way to try and change the master/slave relationship is through communication. It's not understandable at all that they would not have figured out by now that being emo gets them nowhere and the only way they can possibly come out on top of the situation is to make a friend. How do you befriend someone who doesnt listen to you? Honestly think about it like this. Tailed beast tells host lets be friends. I will give you all my power but in return you must allow me full access. If I was a jinchuruki I would be bat shit fucking crazy to listen to that. Also, who the hell is mr.rogers
Essentially what Spicy_Curry said is on the money. From the Ninja World's perspective, the Bijuu's are just a tool to use, same with the jinchuuriki, so the entire motto would be "how can we use the monsters more efficiently without losing control and letting them out of the cage". If I was a Jinchuuriki and x tailed beast presented me with that offer, it would be the teachings of my entire life vs "this monster", trying to bribe me to escape? There is a reason he is in a jail inside you, with all these preventative measures. How could you justify abandoning all this because "the nice shiny monster wants to be free". Unless I was insane and would do anything for power, I can't see another reason to it.
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One day you're walking along the side of the street. It's about to rain. You saw ants frantically running around their hill. Being the bored and cruel person that you are, you decided to raze the hill and watch what happens next. The ants hate you.
Days later, some ants came to you and asks you to be at their beck and call, because they saw you wrecking other ants and they want that power. You're not that bored, so you said no, I want to be free. These new ants aren't pleased.
More days passed, you woke up finding many ants surrounding you. One of them says "get into ma tummy". "No thanks". Then you're forced into submission by Ants Voodoo and locked up in a jail too small for your body, for who knows how long.
Months later, the ant who locked you up, or maybe the next jailer, asks you to be its friend.
Would you have said yes?
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On February 03 2012 06:28 spritzz wrote:
One day you're walking along the side of the street. It's about to rain. You saw ants frantically running around their hill. Being the bored and cruel person that you are, you decided to raze the hill and watch what happens next. The ants hate you.
Days later, some ants came to you and asks you to be at their beck and call, because they saw you wrecking other ants and they want that power. You're not that bored, so you said no, I want to be free. These new ants aren't pleased.
More days passed, you woke up finding many ants surrounding you. One of them says "get into ma tummy". "No thanks". Then you're forced into submission by Ants Voodoo and locked up in a jail too small for your body, for who knows how long.
Months later, the ant who locked you up, or maybe the next jailer, asks you to be its friend.
Would you have said yes?
Is this a metaphor for something? I'm not getting it.
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big person = obviously fox
ants = villages
Except Naruto wasn't the person who locked fox up, and you omitted the whole 'ant/jailer goes through shitload of experiences that let him sympathize with you before he asks you to be friendz'
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On February 03 2012 08:42 GARO wrote:
big person = obviously fox
ants = villages
Except Naruto wasn't the person who locked fox up, and you omitted the whole 'ant/jailer goes through shitload of experiences that let him sympathize with you before he asks you to be friendz'
Yah I'm still trying to work that part out. This was just saying why previous hosts didn't/can't make friends. Also just noting on the difference in power between beasts and regular ninjas.
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Haha! Loved the big person - ant analogy.
Anyway, from a standpoint of it being the time of war and the 10 Tail being a destructive being/force, the mindset is that, anything born from it should be based off of it (meaning also destructive but powerful).
I would imagine though that the splitting of the 10 tails into the 9 Bijuu would be kind of like after wishing in dragonball, they would be thrown in various places and not all in the same place after being split (anyway, besides the point).
As far as scenario for the storyline goes... The Bijuu after the split (Assuming they are in the same place), only have an idea of 1 type of ninja, The Sage of the 6 paths (who appears to be very nice to them). However, once they get out into the world, it doesn't appear to be so as there is war, torment, and pretty much everyone wants a piece of them for their own control. So the time of wars didn't really do good to improve on the image of how the "humans/ninjas" were towards Bijuu. It practically would have destroyed any notion of hope since the creation of Jinchuuriki's is to seal and draw out their energy to the best of their abilities. In case of Jinchuuriki's death, they technically have someone next in line (ideally) to take on the role which is also considered a tool.
So from how the story was developed, the new persons holding the Bijuu in their respective villages would be hated on by their people which would make them resent the existence of the Bijuu, how could you befriend something that (initially) you believe to be the cause of all the pain (ex. If you didn't exist I wouldn't have to be treated like this? - example is Gaara, Naruto and Bee as children).
Anyway, I think the story has given us a frame of reference to base these assumptions/hypothesis as to why this seems to be only instance wherein the tailed beasts are once again in "unison" or "in sync", based on how the world used to be and how it is now in the story
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On February 03 2012 06:24 Slardar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2012 06:12 Spicy_Curry wrote:On February 02 2012 18:12 ddrddrddrddr wrote:On February 02 2012 17:46 Spicy_Curry wrote:On February 02 2012 17:40 ddrddrddrddr wrote:On February 02 2012 16:25 Courthead wrote:On February 02 2012 14:31 ddrddrddrddr wrote:
I thought the tailed beasts are giant balls of energy that radiates destruction. The Naruto wiki states...
...Here we see the beasts humanized and personified. They seem to get along and are pretty human. They seem suddenly to have daddy issues and are talking to eachother like siblings. Where's the feral rage that we've become used to seeing? You can't tell me the tailed beasts have been mentally sound all this time and the entire ninja world has been totally oblivious to it. If people knew the beasts have such human personalities, then befriending them would have been hell of a lot more efficient than sealing them away and spending generations attempting to create vessels that can utilize their power. They would be more like a summoned pet like the frogs and slugs and snakes and what not. I really don't like how the beasts are being portrayed. If you see that a wiki conflicts with the manga, your first step should be to check the wiki's sources. And in this instance, it's based off a single page of the manga in which Deidara claims that Shukaku is too dumb to use his power effectively. He didn't say that he has no personality, or that he could only behave in a feral manner. In fact, there are numerous points in the series where we see the Bijuu behaving otherwise. So I don't think there's any justification to the claim that the manga is inconsistent with itself here. At most, it's inconsistent with a wiki compiled by random people on the internet. As for why people haven't tried befriending the beasts in the past, that's like asking why they didn't simply befriend Akatsuki. Just because a being is capable of understanding your language doesn't mean it wants to be your friend. The Bijuu have consistently terrorized the world, killing thousands of ninja, and engendering much hatred from their relatives. They're also insanely powerful. Who the hell is going to walk up to a Bijuu and try to befriend it? You're probably more focused on, you know, not dying. There's also no reason to befriend the Bijuu if you can simply use them to create Jinchuuriki, binding them to a person's will whether they like it or not. And it's not simply a matter of befriending the Bijuu -- Naruto's mom was never overtly cruel to Kurama, and from this chapter it looks like some other Jinchuuriki had decent relations with their Bijuu as well. But as Kurama said earlier, "No matter what they say, they're all saying the same thing." They all just wanted to control and limit the Bijuu. Naruto is the only one who genuinely cared about helping them for their own sake. You could argue that someone else might have tried that at some point. And you're right, Bee did. But remember that not many people get to become Jinchuuriki, and most of those who do probably buy into the whole, "This monster inside is pure evil" stereotype. Just ignore the wiki. My arguments doesn't even need information from the wiki. Just about every single one of the Akatsuki's spoken with and have interacted with the person they had to fight against, and even though they've had to fight, their back story are explained. And these are known criminals who really don't have a need to explain themselves. On the other hand you have creatures being mistreated because they're used and misunderstood, you don't think they have a huge bloody incentive to try and tell their story? These beasts do not seem to be evil criminals like Akatsuki, so if there is any level of understanding, how would anyone help but sympathize? Every fight comes with further understanding of the characters, apparently the beasts get no such benefit. Even if they're super powerful, they're sentient, which makes them no different from summoned creatures. That makes them no less difficult to befriend. Remember Manda? That snake requires human sacrifices when he's pissed off, but still was able to have a working relationship with oorochimaru. Imagine if you're the Shushaku, and you were suddenly freed because the prison you were in went to sleep, would you bother trying to pick a fight? I don't know about you but I'd trying to solidify my freedom by getting the hell away from everybody and everything that's been responsible to figure out how to keep that kid asleep. But noooo, he's too dumb. Well, then it makes sense, if he's dumb and feral, as all the beasts SHOULD be, then the story up until now makes perfect sense! It makes sense that beasts would take control of their Jinchuuriki, be it Gaara, or Naruto, and kill everything in sight like like they're insane. As for the Jinchuurikis, Kurama can't just be emo like that. The beasts are aware of what's going on with the jinchuurikis. EVEN IF the Jinchuurikis don't initiate communications, the beasts sure as hell should start a dialogue if their masters turn out to be good people. The fox have spoken with Naruto many times, and he knows Naruto's character what he's done with Sasuke and Gaara. He never reacted to Naruto's charm until now? That makes so little sense it's confounding. Plus Garra's beast was sealed when he's just a child, so presumably other beasts have had the opportunity as well. You're going to tell me every single one of those beasts are too dumb to realize that they can easily establish a friendship with these kids, some who do not even know the nature of what they're holding, and most shunned by society and in dire need of friendship? Does that make any sense at all? Excluding this chapter, there's only one way this could make any sense. The beasts need to all be very different, with the 8 tails being the more friendly of the bunch, the one tail being bat shit insane, and Kurama being quite evil by nature but was inspired by Naruto. The rest should have their own traits but tending toward mentally unstable or combative. This way, people's fear of the beasts would be justfieid. The beasts are incredibly jaded. It is understandable that it would take an enormous amount of proof to show them that there are humans who dont just seek their power. You label the jinchuuriki as the master of the beast but that is the exact problem. Naruto isnt the 9tails master, he is its friend. The master-servant mentality is the exact reason why they hate humans and refuse to expose themselves. Really? Because Pokemon make ninjas look like Mr. Rogers. Also, the best way to try and change the master/slave relationship is through communication. It's not understandable at all that they would not have figured out by now that being emo gets them nowhere and the only way they can possibly come out on top of the situation is to make a friend. How do you befriend someone who doesnt listen to you? Honestly think about it like this. Tailed beast tells host lets be friends. I will give you all my power but in return you must allow me full access. If I was a jinchuruki I would be bat shit fucking crazy to listen to that. Also, who the hell is mr.rogers Essentially what Spicy_Curry said is on the money. From the Ninja World's perspective, the Bijuu's are just a tool to use, same with the jinchuuriki, so the entire motto would be "how can we use the monsters more efficiently without losing control and letting them out of the cage". If I was a Jinchuuriki and x tailed beast presented me with that offer, it would be the teachings of my entire life vs "this monster", trying to bribe me to escape? There is a reason he is in a jail inside you, with all these preventative measures. How could you justify abandoning all this because "the nice shiny monster wants to be free". Unless I was insane and would do anything for power, I can't see another reason to it.
The jinchuuriki don't have a life time of teaching that would cause the bigotry you're describing. Half of these are kids that's had the thing inside them before elementary school graduation. It's could have been like having an imaginary friend with them if the beasts were willing to communicate beginning in childhood. Even with adults, you can't tell me that through history there hasn't been a single person to wonder maybe, just maybe the thing inside them isn't made of evil. How any teaching of anyone going to be more profound and effective than a dialog with someone who is inside you and can potentially speak with you 24/7 your entire life? Further more they're not all taught that they have something evil in them. Naruto didn't even know why he was being shunned.
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@ddrddrddrddr
Well, the problem is you have to establish a timeline. How long was the previous great ninja war since it passed? I believe it is no more than just 1 generation given that the 4th hokage was still a participant in it up until "peace"/"balance" was somewhat established, but everyone was still on edge.
So during the time of war, it was established and known that the Jinchuurikis are nothing but W.M.Ds. It also wasn't long ago when the 9 tails wrought havok on Konoha causing the loss of life of the 4th hokage, hence, it is still fresh from the memory of practically everyone in Konoha of the "monster" within Naruto, hence the hate.
On the side of Gaara, you can also see the "WMD" treatment of a Jinchuuriki, even if it is the Hokage's own son. The good of the village overrules the good of one person's life/liberty. For Shukaku, his freedom would be allowed if Gaara sleeps (I guess this would be an imperfection in the seal design which isn't really elaborated as others do not appear to have the same problem). So the beast essentially is freed during the Jinchuuriki's unconcious state. I hear arguments here why Shukaku didn't simply leave the area. Well ok, he leaves... but then the Jinchuuriki wakes up.. freedom ended. So what does he do? He just enjoys and makes the best of it as he is not technically freed from the Jinchuuriki as his form is still with the Jinchuuriki on him, asleep.
Also, we never really established how many generations were under the "war state" in the history of Naruto. I mean, we only know that we at present have 5 hokages. So assuming each hokage had 2 - 3 generations under their term, then a minimum of 10 generations or 200 years, the last 20 years would be the present generation of Naruto. So the bijuu could have been treated as tools/weapons only for about 180 years.
Also, we never really know if all Jinchuuriki's were made as kids. Wasn't Naruto's mom a bit of "age" when she received the 9 tails? The act of being Jinchuurikis is not limited by the age but by chakra compatibility as explained why only few people can become Jinchuurikis (the uzumaki clan had this special thing with their chakra stamina that made them special to become Jinchuurikis).
Anyway, I don't think the story is really that flawed or there needs to any detailed diving into the "logic" behind it as it is a fantasy/fiction. Loose ends are not too huge, if there are any, as these most likely are used as plot devices to advanced the growth/development of the story and characters.
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I wonder how Itachi and the kages are doing. Feeling a change of battlefield coming up real soon.
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On February 03 2012 20:53 17Sphynx17 wrote:
@ddrddrddrddr
Well, the problem is you have to establish a timeline. How long was the previous great ninja war since it passed? I believe it is no more than just 1 generation given that the 4th hokage was still a participant in it up until "peace"/"balance" was somewhat established, but everyone was still on edge.
So during the time of war, it was established and known that the Jinchuurikis are nothing but W.M.Ds. It also wasn't long ago when the 9 tails wrought havok on Konoha causing the loss of life of the 4th hokage, hence, it is still fresh from the memory of practically everyone in Konoha of the "monster" within Naruto, hence the hate.
On the side of Gaara, you can also see the "WMD" treatment of a Jinchuuriki, even if it is the Hokage's own son. The good of the village overrules the good of one person's life/liberty. For Shukaku, his freedom would be allowed if Gaara sleeps (I guess this would be an imperfection in the seal design which isn't really elaborated as others do not appear to have the same problem). So the beast essentially is freed during the Jinchuuriki's unconcious state. I hear arguments here why Shukaku didn't simply leave the area. Well ok, he leaves... but then the Jinchuuriki wakes up.. freedom ended. So what does he do? He just enjoys and makes the best of it as he is not technically freed from the Jinchuuriki as his form is still with the Jinchuuriki on him, asleep.
Also, we never really established how many generations were under the "war state" in the history of Naruto. I mean, we only know that we at present have 5 hokages. So assuming each hokage had 2 - 3 generations under their term, then a minimum of 10 generations or 200 years, the last 20 years would be the present generation of Naruto. So the bijuu could have been treated as tools/weapons only for about 180 years.
Also, we never really know if all Jinchuuriki's were made as kids. Wasn't Naruto's mom a bit of "age" when she received the 9 tails? The act of being Jinchuurikis is not limited by the age but by chakra compatibility as explained why only few people can become Jinchuurikis (the uzumaki clan had this special thing with their chakra stamina that made them special to become Jinchuurikis).
Anyway, I don't think the story is really that flawed or there needs to any detailed diving into the "logic" behind it as it is a fantasy/fiction. Loose ends are not too huge, if there are any, as these most likely are used as plot devices to advanced the growth/development of the story and characters.
Might as well make it ultra conservative and say each hokage represents only a single generation, that still amounts to 5*9 = 45 jinchuurikis. Are they all so homogeneous that their life-long interaction with their bijuus never amounted to anything more than weapon usage? It might be possible if they were all veteran soldiers, but judging by the current jinchuurikis, that's absolutely not the case. We even know that the jinchuuriki are just people close to the kages to ensure loyalty. And as long as we're making the time frame short, we're not just reducing the number of jinchuurikis that can potentially break the mold, we're also decreasing the amount of time that the bijuus stand abused. In the worst case, is 5 different people that came to abuse them in the past enough to harden them so much that they would become so unwilling to reach out despite it being the only way out, and for all 9 bijuus? Keep in mind that the bijuus have absolutely nothing to do all day except to see and sense through the jinchuurikis. What do they really have to lose? No matter if we increase or decrease the time frame, chances are the beasts should have had ample incentive and opportunity to reach out and establish their individuality. Through the society's mistreatment of the jinchuuriki, the jinchuuriki would also have ample incentive and opportunity to reach out and establish a relationship with the only conscious entity that hangs around.
BTW, as to the shushaku, if I knew that my ticket to freedom is for the kid to sleep, I'd be plotting all the time on how to knock Gaara out. Sadistic though it might be, knocking Gaara into a coma is still more productive than going on a rampage on people that he doesn't even know. Better yet, I could also just kill Gaara since the bijuus are reborn with some delay when the host dies.
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+ Show Spoiler +On February 03 2012 21:19 ddrddrddrddr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2012 20:53 17Sphynx17 wrote:
@ddrddrddrddr
Well, the problem is you have to establish a timeline. How long was the previous great ninja war since it passed? I believe it is no more than just 1 generation given that the 4th hokage was still a participant in it up until "peace"/"balance" was somewhat established, but everyone was still on edge.
So during the time of war, it was established and known that the Jinchuurikis are nothing but W.M.Ds. It also wasn't long ago when the 9 tails wrought havok on Konoha causing the loss of life of the 4th hokage, hence, it is still fresh from the memory of practically everyone in Konoha of the "monster" within Naruto, hence the hate.
On the side of Gaara, you can also see the "WMD" treatment of a Jinchuuriki, even if it is the Hokage's own son. The good of the village overrules the good of one person's life/liberty. For Shukaku, his freedom would be allowed if Gaara sleeps (I guess this would be an imperfection in the seal design which isn't really elaborated as others do not appear to have the same problem). So the beast essentially is freed during the Jinchuuriki's unconcious state. I hear arguments here why Shukaku didn't simply leave the area. Well ok, he leaves... but then the Jinchuuriki wakes up.. freedom ended. So what does he do? He just enjoys and makes the best of it as he is not technically freed from the Jinchuuriki as his form is still with the Jinchuuriki on him, asleep.
Also, we never really established how many generations were under the "war state" in the history of Naruto. I mean, we only know that we at present have 5 hokages. So assuming each hokage had 2 - 3 generations under their term, then a minimum of 10 generations or 200 years, the last 20 years would be the present generation of Naruto. So the bijuu could have been treated as tools/weapons only for about 180 years.
Also, we never really know if all Jinchuuriki's were made as kids. Wasn't Naruto's mom a bit of "age" when she received the 9 tails? The act of being Jinchuurikis is not limited by the age but by chakra compatibility as explained why only few people can become Jinchuurikis (the uzumaki clan had this special thing with their chakra stamina that made them special to become Jinchuurikis).
Anyway, I don't think the story is really that flawed or there needs to any detailed diving into the "logic" behind it as it is a fantasy/fiction. Loose ends are not too huge, if there are any, as these most likely are used as plot devices to advanced the growth/development of the story and characters.
Might as well make it ultra conservative and say each hokage represents only a single generation, that still amounts to 5*9 = 45 jinchuurikis. Are they all so homogeneous that their life-long interaction with their bijuus never amounted to anything more than weapon usage? It might be possible if they were all veteran soldiers, but judging by the current jinchuurikis, that's absolutely not the case. We even know that the jinchuuriki are just people close to the kages to ensure loyalty. And as long as we're making the time frame short, we're not just reducing the number of jinchuurikis that can potentially break the mold, we're also decreasing the amount of time that the bijuus stand abused. In the worst case, is 5 different people that came to abuse them in the past enough to harden them so much that they would become so unwilling to reach out despite it being the only way out, and for all 9 bijuus? Keep in mind that the bijuus have absolutely nothing to do all day except to see and sense through the jinchuurikis. What do they really have to lose? No matter if we increase or decrease the time frame, chances are the beasts should have had ample incentive and opportunity to reach out and establish their individuality. Through the society's mistreatment of the jinchuuriki, the jinchuuriki would also have ample incentive and opportunity to reach out and establish a relationship with the only conscious entity that hangs around. BTW, as to the shushaku, if I knew that my ticket to freedom is for the kid to sleep, I'd be plotting all the time on how to knock Gaara out. Sadistic though it might be, knocking Gaara into a coma is still more productive than going on a rampage on people that he doesn't even know. Better yet, I could also just kill Gaara since the bijuus are reborn with some delay when the host dies.
Well, the only incentive the Jinchuuriki's need is to learn to be able to draw more chakra from the contained bijuus to better serve their purpose. Basically, society and everyone treats them as a WMD if they are the Jinchuuriki. As shown also with the lecture of Bee, a Jinchuuriki can draw bijuu chakra, for the price of their own, perhaps a 1/3 (person) 2/3 (bijuu) ratio. But eventually, a limit will be reached. So a Jinchuuriki may simply opt to develop better chakra control or improve/increase chakra stamina to better draw out more bijuu chakra or last longer using the bijuu energy. In the time of war where the jinchuuriki's use was defined to be used in battles to win, the purpose is pretty much defined and there doesn't need to be a better incentive to discuss with the bijuu inside you. Being a warrior for the village, you would of course have loyalty to the clan, and thus would not like to risk being tricked by the bijuu inside you.
As for why the shukaku never opted to kill Gaara or why any bijuu never killed their jinchuuriki. Good question. Doesn't that reflect on what the bijuu character is? Perhaps they saw that these Jinchuuriki (especially these children - gaara, bee, naruto etc) didn't have a choice in the matter much like them so they really don't harbor any ill will towards them.
You might argue, well, what could the clans have thought of what they did? Well, they could simply say their seals were good/good enough to place the bijuu under their control.
Again, there are various what ifs and scenarios you could consider to argue against the dilemmas/questions you pose. These are answers only the author has as it is his made up world and we are just along for the ride. Should he answer it? Not really needed for me. It doesn't stray away from the whole storyline anyway and would not really add much value to what majority of the crowd who read it want to see/read. Would it be interesting if he did? Well, maybe.. depending on how he would execute it, but it would be a gamble as it might be seen as a simple drawing out of the whole manga/milking it for what it's worth.
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Im just facepalming so hard at the overthinking and rehashing of the same "Why couldnt they just get along arguement". They didnt ok, take it up with the author and ask him a detailed account of each and every jinchuuriki did or didnt do maybe he can help you. You can find all sorts of reasons to justify what you think are logical fallacies simply because you dont like something and people will find ways to justify the opposite aswell. In the end it doesnt really matter. What matters is that the author decided to take a route with the beasts that clearly you didnt happen to like. Get over it or stop reading.
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On February 03 2012 21:45 Rebs wrote:
Im just facepalming so hard at the overthinking and rehashing of the same "Why couldnt they just get along arguement". They didnt ok, take it up with the author and ask him a detailed account of each and every jinchuuriki did or didnt do maybe he can help you. You can find all sorts of reasons to justify what you think are logical fallacies simply because you dont like something and people will find ways to justify the opposite aswell. In the end it doesnt really matter. What matters is that the author decided to take a route with the beasts that clearly you didnt happen to like. Get over it or stop reading.
Why don't you stop rereading my posts so you don't have to slap yourself in the face so much? If I'm finding reasons to justify fallacies, either they're correct, in which case the argument has merit, it's false, in which case rebuttals can be found, or insufficient information is given, in which case it's still just speculation that will eventually run its course.
Either way, I think I've made my point. This manga's plot hasn't made sense ever since Sasuke going hell bent on revenge despite his knowledge of his brother's sacrifice. I'll just chalk it up to the same syndrome as bleach's author of having a submission deadline and no time to think things through.
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On February 03 2012 21:45 Rebs wrote:
Im just facepalming so hard at the overthinking and rehashing of the same "Why couldnt they just get along arguement". They didnt ok, take it up with the author and ask him a detailed account of each and every jinchuuriki did or didnt do maybe he can help you. You can find all sorts of reasons to justify what you think are logical fallacies simply because you dont like something and people will find ways to justify the opposite aswell. In the end it doesnt really matter. What matters is that the author decided to take a route with the beasts that clearly you didnt happen to like. Get over it or stop reading.
What's with all these Kishimoto apologists coming out of the woodworks..
ddrddrddrddr made some compelling arguments about why the premise of the story is deeply flawed and I agree with him.
That being said, despite the flaws, it's nice to see the story chugging along at a crisp pace. Hopefully, we're no more than a year or two from the end of the manga.
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On February 03 2012 21:34 17Sphynx17 wrote:
As for why the shukaku never opted to kill Gaara or why any bijuu never killed their jinchuuriki. Good question. Doesn't that reflect on what the bijuu character is? Perhaps they saw that these Jinchuuriki (especially these children - gaara, bee, naruto etc) didn't have a choice in the matter much like them so they really don't harbor any ill will towards them
Or..................
That the bijuu DIES if his host dies, (been said a million times throughout the manga) so they tend to like keeping their host ALIVE.
A tailed beast going on a rampage and just trying to destroy the people who tried to keep him captive for so long simply makes perfect sense to me. Would you not be pissed the fuck off from people who used you all your life and want revenge upon them?
It fits really well with kishi's idea of a cycle of hate even.
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http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/543/9
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/503/14
Bloody hell finally found it. There's a source which shows that if the host dies, bijuu gets revived. If the Bijuu gets extracted, jinchuriki dies.
Naruto wiki apparently says otherwise but it's not cited and I can't find corroborating evidence. Otherwise at some point in the past, you'd think there would be suggestion that 9 brave ninjas sacrifice themselves to disarm the ninja world of these destructive beasts for the good of everyone. Then again, we haven't been doing that with nuclear weapons so I suppose it's just a thought.
Think Tobi can afford to kill Naruto and killerbee now. He doesn't have to worry about waiting for revival since he now has sole access to the rest of the bijuus. Might be an issue still depending on how and where they revive I suppose.
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On February 04 2012 00:09 c0ldfusion wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2012 21:45 Rebs wrote:
Im just facepalming so hard at the overthinking and rehashing of the same "Why couldnt they just get along arguement". They didnt ok, take it up with the author and ask him a detailed account of each and every jinchuuriki did or didnt do maybe he can help you. You can find all sorts of reasons to justify what you think are logical fallacies simply because you dont like something and people will find ways to justify the opposite aswell. In the end it doesnt really matter. What matters is that the author decided to take a route with the beasts that clearly you didnt happen to like. Get over it or stop reading. What's with all these Kishimoto apologists coming out of the woodworks.. ddrddrddrddr made some compelling arguments about why the premise of the story is deeply flawed and I agree with him. That being said, despite the flaws, it's nice to see the story chugging along at a crisp pace. Hopefully, we're no more than a year or two from the end of the manga.
What ? I think its a terrible manga, just not for the reasons hes saying. Maybe if you could venture following the actual discussion in full for the last few pages instead of picking the post where I essentially gave up.
Im saying humanizing them sucks because its boring but reasonable enough, the other arguement is that humanizing them sucks because thats not possible. I dont see where I make apologies for the author as such.
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To the people comparing SSJ to Kyuubi mode. A super saiyan can destroy a planet with ease. The Kyuubi can destroy mountains, gg.
The thing i think we should start discussing is the final fight between Sasuke and Naruto. At the moment I don't see how Sasuke has any chance of standing up to Naruto in Kyuubi mode, even with his new EMS. Look at this for an example, Sasuke takes on 5 kages nearly dies, Naruto takes on 5 Bijuu and kicks ass. lol.
My theory to what will happen in the final battle is that with Sasukes EMS he can control the Bijuu (or kabuto transplants some Senju DNA into him and he gets Rinnegan) not sure. But as it stands Sasuke has no chance in taken Naruto on.
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On February 04 2012 09:58 KromeStar wrote:
To the people comparing SSJ to Kyuubi mode. A super saiyan can destroy a planet with ease. The Kyuubi can destroy mountains, gg.
The thing i think we should start discussing is the final fight between Sasuke and Naruto. At the moment I don't see how Sasuke has any chance of standing up to Naruto in Kyuubi mode, even with his new EMS. Look at this for an example, Sasuke takes on 5 kages nearly dies, Naruto takes on 5 Bijuu and kicks ass. lol.
My theory to what will happen in the final battle is that with Sasukes EMS he can control the Bijuu (or kabuto transplants some Senju DNA into him and he gets Rinnegan) not sure. But as it stands Sasuke has no chance in taken Naruto on.
MS can control bijuus. Sasuke subdues the nine-tails and its MS vs sage mode. I think the author wants to set up a fight between Naruto and Sasuke with no interference.
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On February 04 2012 04:33 ddrddrddrddr wrote:http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/543/9http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/503/14Bloody hell finally found it. There's a source which shows that if the host dies, bijuu gets revived. If the Bijuu gets extracted, jinchuriki dies. Naruto wiki apparently says otherwise but it's not cited and I can't find corroborating evidence. Otherwise at some point in the past, you'd think there would be suggestion that 9 brave ninjas sacrifice themselves to disarm the ninja world of these destructive beasts for the good of everyone. Then again, we haven't been doing that with nuclear weapons so I suppose it's just a thought. Think Tobi can afford to kill Naruto and killerbee now. He doesn't have to worry about waiting for revival since he now has sole access to the rest of the bijuus. Might be an issue still depending on how and where they revive I suppose.
The wiki might be referencing to http://www.mangareader.net/93-100-16/naruto/chapter-95.html
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