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On November 29 2014 15:08 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2014 14:54 Manit0u wrote:
Can someone more knowledgeable about the lore and universe of Star Wars enlighten me as to why is the stormtrooper black? Aren't they all clones? Or maybe they're changing it so that they're not clones any more or that they are but Jango was black too?
Nevermind, I think I figured it out. He's not a real stormtrooper, just one of the protagonists dressed as one. Am I right? There's nothing that suggests the change between Episodes III and IV (where we see Stormtroopers of different height and obviously different looking officers), but in Battlefront II, there's an incident where the Kamino cloners rebel against the Empire, and once Boba and the Empire suppress the rebellion, more conscripts and clones of other templates are drafted into the army, and the only pure-clone outfit left is the 501st Legion. Canonically, the boarding of the Tantive IV, one of the contingents of the Battle of Hoth, and the defense of Endor (the Emperor refers to them as his "best troops" to Luke) were all carried out by the 501st. Apparently half their number was also stationed on the Death Star, but I'm not including that because we don't know if the heroes ever ran into them. Nearly every battle involving clones that you see in Revenge of the Sith also had some of the 501st participating. As of Episode VII, the Empire's been in disarray, so they have to take wider and wider sources of recruits to support their army. Even before the movie was announced, there were a lot of mentions on Wookieepedia about the widening variety of conscripts, to even non-humans being enlisted as Stormtroopers a hundred years after the destruction of the Death Star. Although someone suggested (and I like the sound of this theory, EDIT: You just mentioned it too), that the black guy is actually a Rebel (or New Republic) spy.
Sadly I think that he is a spy too, this was my conclusion as well. Personally I'd rather have it possess an Empire point-of-view and perhaps this new threat is endangering both the Republic and the Empire and they have to band together to fight it or something. Not without some fighting between the two of course, but maybe this Stormtrooper will see that there is a bigger danger or something.
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Canada11607 Posts
Well, honestly for a long time we had no reason to believe were anything but conscripted (maybe brainwashed) humans. Under most naming conventions, wars are either named after both participants or after the Other. Example Anglo-Boer War (both) or Boer War (Other), Napoleonic Wars (Other), Vietnam War (Other), etc. (I'm assuming North American-centric with strong ties to the Britain or America (Canadian) history books here.)
So most people assumed the clones were the enemy to the Republic. It wasn't until Episode II that we came to realize the Clones were on the Republic side. Ostensibly, it ought to have been called the Clone-Droid War or just the Droid War, but whatever. If you just follow the movies, the clone issue is a big question mark. There is little reason to believe the Empire stopped using clones, but if that were true, the original trilogy's Rebels ought to have focused on knocking out cloning facilities. The fact that cloning facilities are never mentioned once as a possible military target makes the connection between the two trilogies even more baffling. Reading wookepedia, it seems they have some dubious reasons for stopping the cloning, but I don't think it's as ironclad then if the clonemasters were a threat to the Old Republic that forced it to militarize, turning it into the Empire along the way, but the clonemaster were defeated... hence no more clones. I still like that idea better.
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I suspect the storm trooper/clone confusion is just a simple continuity "error" between the prequels and the originals. There was no mention of cloning facilities probably because Lucas did not consider the stormtroopers to be clones when he was writing the original trilogy.
I know the clone wars were referenced in episode 4, but it was not linked to the storm troopers.
Either way, it can probably be explained away by saying that the empire started replacing the clones with real life recruits.
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On November 29 2014 08:44 Saryph wrote:
I love x-wings but isn't this movie set 30 years after Return of the Jedi? Those things must be antiques because I thought they were old in the original movies. Love the trailer though, I am glad it isn't giving away the plot or anything, and even with my earlier question I love that x-wings are in it.
X-wings were relatively new as far as I know. They were being prototyped as an option for the Empire by Sorosubb but the Rebels stole some of the blueprints. Since then there were several version building on the original X-wing. Mentally, I kinda think of the F-16 and its variants after all these years. (1974-2014+?) Pretty plausible that they would be in service.
Kinda meh on the teaser so far. The opening shots felt a bit campy and now with all the political discourse about race I'm kinda mindful about there being any asian characters existing.
X-Wing shots have me hyped. Honestly just love seeing the space battles as inconsequential as they may be. Spectacle is enough for me with them.
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On November 29 2014 18:24 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2014 08:44 Saryph wrote:
I love x-wings but isn't this movie set 30 years after Return of the Jedi? Those things must be antiques because I thought they were old in the original movies. Love the trailer though, I am glad it isn't giving away the plot or anything, and even with my earlier question I love that x-wings are in it. X-wings were relatively new as far as I know. They were being prototyped as an option for the Empire by Sorosubb but the Rebels stole some of the blueprints. Since then there were several version building on the original X-wing. Mentally, I kinda think of the F-16 and its variants after all these years. (1974-2014+?) Pretty plausible that they would be in service. Kinda meh on the teaser so far. The opening shots felt a bit campy and now with all the political discourse about race I'm kinda mindful about there being any asian characters existing. X-Wing shots have me hyped. Honestly just love seeing the space battles as inconsequential as they may be. Spectacle is enough for me with them.
Same here. My favorite aspect of star wars has always been the ships and military equipments. AT-AT's, star destroyers, Tie Fighters, X-wings. etc.
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On November 29 2014 17:31 Vin{MBL} wrote:
I suspect the storm trooper/clone confusion is just a simple continuity "error" between the prequels and the originals. There was no mention of cloning facilities probably because Lucas did not consider the stormtroopers to be clones when he was writing the original trilogy.
I know the clone wars were referenced in episode 4, but it was not linked to the storm troopers.
Either way, it can probably be explained away by saying that the empire started replacing the clones with real life recruits.
Wasnt the explaination that there are no clones in episode 4 that the clones have a short livespan due to the manipulated growing process? So they all died to old age after 20 years or so.
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On November 29 2014 18:24 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2014 08:44 Saryph wrote:
I love x-wings but isn't this movie set 30 years after Return of the Jedi? Those things must be antiques because I thought they were old in the original movies. Love the trailer though, I am glad it isn't giving away the plot or anything, and even with my earlier question I love that x-wings are in it. X-wings were relatively new as far as I know. They were being prototyped as an option for the Empire by Sorosubb but the Rebels stole some of the blueprints. Since then there were several version building on the original X-wing. Mentally, I kinda think of the F-16 and its variants after all these years. (1974-2014+?) Pretty plausible that they would be in service. Kinda meh on the teaser so far. The opening shots felt a bit campy and now with all the political discourse about race I'm kinda mindful about there being any asian characters existing. X-Wing shots have me hyped. Honestly just love seeing the space battles as inconsequential as they may be. Spectacle is enough for me with them.
We're not discussing race here. Just throwing around ideas regarding the stormtroopers in general since clones were such a big factor in ep. I-III and the entire Clone Wars franchise (I believe you can call it that with 2 animated series, each of which was better than I-III feature films). Not everyone is a complete geek in those matters but it seems that there are several of us interested at least enough to start a discussion on the subject of "What has changed in the way Empire drafts its troops?".
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I think the Empire's influence has waned after the events of RotJ, and they no longer have the ability to demand a specific trait for enlisting to become a storm trooper. They just grab who ever can join. Also, there are speculations that the black guy is a rebel spy.
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I really don't understand the racial issues there. I guess people are pissed off that the guy doesn't look like Jango Fett, is that it? Or is it really about the guy being black? I don't see why he wouldn't be black if we assume that those aren't clones anymore, there are already several cool black characters in Star Wars (Lando and Mace Windu for example).
Plus, he could actually be disguising himself like Luke and Han did, I really don't see the problem...
Also, for those who are disappointed in the teaser, keep in mind that, well, it's a teaser, not a trailer. It's really meant to not say a whole lot and just get your mouth watering. It certainly did for me, consider me hyped ;D
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On November 29 2014 20:35 ZenithM wrote:
I really don't understand the racial issues there. I guess people are pissed off that the guy doesn't look like Jango Fett, is that it? Or is it really about the guy being black? I don't see why he wouldn't be black if we assume that those aren't clones anymore, there are already several cool black characters in Star Wars (Lando and Mace Windu for example).
Plus, he could actually be disguising himself like Luke and Han did, I really don't see the problem...
Also, for those who are disappointed in the teaser, keep in mind that, well, it's a teaser, not a trailer. It's really meant to not say a whole lot and just get your mouth watering. It certainly did for me, consider me hyped ;D
Mace Windu was not cool. They did a very bad casting job when they hired Jackson, he missed the core of his role completely and the character just felt out of place because of it.
Purple lightsabre was cool though.
edit: Reading the wiki for Mace Windu, the reason he has a purple lightsabre is because Jackson nagged Lucas into giving his character one.
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Considering all the hate for the prequels and how everyone is saying it should at least be better than them, It looks like im in for a pretty good viewing experience considering i liked the prequels quite alot.
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From what I can remember hearing from people growing up, you had several issues with keep producing Clone Troopers. Apparently they are really expensive? And I guess the Rebels weren't substantial enough to warrant that investment. It's more unreliable than standard recruiting. I think the idea that the Kamino's went against the Empire is plausible. You also had issues with the more autonomous Clone troopers not being affected by Order 66, and joining the Jedi's.
I think that there's a comment in A New Hope from Obi-Wan that Clones wouldn't have had as shitty accuracy as the newer Storm Troopers.
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For whatever it's worth, pre-Prequel lore suggested (but generally left ambiguous) that clones formed part, but not all, of the Stormtroopers. They were taken from several different models. Regular Imperial Army (non-elite, non-Stormtrooper) were enlisted recruits.
A lot of hypotheses that the "short for a Stormtrooper" line in Ep IV suggests that there was a switch from using effective clone templates to using intimidating ones, designed less for main battle and more for rebellion-prevention. The analogy is of the Imperator Star Destroyer as compared to the previous kinds; the Imperator has a heavily front-focused armament instead of a broadside one, and is ludicrously over-engined for a craft of its size (it outruns the Falcon in a straight line, remember). These suggest a design less optimized for big battles against comparable opponents and more scaring/chasing down inferior foes.
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About the guy in stormtrooper outfit, does no one remember A New Hope? You see both Han and Luke in the same outfit, it could well be an homage to that, just a rebel who stole their uniform.
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On November 30 2014 03:48 Roe wrote:
About the guy in stormtrooper outfit, does no one remember A New Hope? You see both Han and Luke in the same outfit, it could well be an homage to that, just a rebel who stole their uniform.
He isn't wearing his hat.. he's not a real stormtrooper, be it stolen armour or a protagonist.
Still I worry about JJ Abrams involvement. He can direct a good looking movie but he murders cannon with stupid twists that only really dumb people find clever. I swear if there's any mention of time travel I'm walking out.
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On November 29 2014 20:35 ZenithM wrote:
I really don't understand the racial issues there. I guess people are pissed off that the guy doesn't look like Jango Fett, is that it? Or is it really about the guy being black? I don't see why he wouldn't be black if we assume that those aren't clones anymore, there are already several cool black characters in Star Wars (Lando and Mace Windu for example).
Plus, he could actually be disguising himself like Luke and Han did, I really don't see the problem...
Also, for those who are disappointed in the teaser, keep in mind that, well, it's a teaser, not a trailer. It's really meant to not say a whole lot and just get your mouth watering. It certainly did for me, consider me hyped ;D
It's been mentioned before that we're not discussing racial issues but organization of Empire's military body. Jeez, what's with you people?
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On November 30 2014 07:23 Manit0u wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2014 20:35 ZenithM wrote:
I really don't understand the racial issues there. I guess people are pissed off that the guy doesn't look like Jango Fett, is that it? Or is it really about the guy being black? I don't see why he wouldn't be black if we assume that those aren't clones anymore, there are already several cool black characters in Star Wars (Lando and Mace Windu for example).
Plus, he could actually be disguising himself like Luke and Han did, I really don't see the problem...
Also, for those who are disappointed in the teaser, keep in mind that, well, it's a teaser, not a trailer. It's really meant to not say a whole lot and just get your mouth watering. It certainly did for me, consider me hyped ;D It's been mentioned before that we're not discussing racial issues but organization of Empire's military body. Jeez, what's with you people?
What do you mean "you people"...? hahah just kidding. I'm going to laugh if the guy has no significance whatsoever and they just did it to make people talk about the trailer.
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On November 30 2014 07:29 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2014 07:23 Manit0u wrote:On November 29 2014 20:35 ZenithM wrote:
I really don't understand the racial issues there. I guess people are pissed off that the guy doesn't look like Jango Fett, is that it? Or is it really about the guy being black? I don't see why he wouldn't be black if we assume that those aren't clones anymore, there are already several cool black characters in Star Wars (Lando and Mace Windu for example).
Plus, he could actually be disguising himself like Luke and Han did, I really don't see the problem...
Also, for those who are disappointed in the teaser, keep in mind that, well, it's a teaser, not a trailer. It's really meant to not say a whole lot and just get your mouth watering. It certainly did for me, consider me hyped ;D It's been mentioned before that we're not discussing racial issues but organization of Empire's military body. Jeez, what's with you people? What do you mean "you people"...? hahah just kidding. I'm going to laugh if the guy has no significance whatsoever and they just did it to make people talk about the trailer.
Agreed. They have to mix it up a little bit and introduce some new ideas, and look how much people are talking about the claysaber.
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I hope it doesnt fall into the trap of trying to make sense of episode 1-6. Sure they should stick to star wars that makes sense, but 1-3 kind of screwed that over anyway.
Id be totally fine with a 3 liner at the beginning of the movie
To our dedicated star wars fans. We wish to apologize for the mess of episodes 1-3, and will be disregarding some of the concepts the last movies introduced (e.g mitoclorians, naboo) for the sake of making a new, better and more enjoyable franchise. The team thanks you for your loyalty and hopes you will enjoy this new chapter in the star wars universe.
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On November 30 2014 10:21 weikor wrote:
I hope it doesnt fall into the trap of trying to make sense of episode 1-6. Sure they should stick to star wars that makes sense, but 1-3 kind of screwed that over anyway.
Id be totally fine with a 3 liner at the beginning of the movie
To our dedicated star wars fans. We wish to apologize for the mess of episodes 1-3, and will be disregarding some of the concepts the last movies introduced (e.g mitoclorians, naboo) for the sake of making a new, better and more enjoyable franchise. The team thanks you for your loyalty and hopes you will enjoy this new chapter in the star wars universe.
What was wrong with Naboo?
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EPT
