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SPOILER WARNING If you only watch the show, this thread will spoil you of future events in HBO's Game of Thrones. Thread contains discussion of all books of the series A Song of Ice and FireClick Here for the spoiler-free thread. |
On May 26 2015 00:00 Conti wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2015 23:59 Sholip wrote:On May 25 2015 21:13 Spaylz wrote:
I'm not sure I understand Littlefinger's role in all this though. He has a meeting with Olenna, he tells her he also has a young man for her, then Cersei gets trapped due to Lancel. LF can't be tied to that, can he? I can hardly imagine that he would have any impact on Lancel at all. It makes little sense to me. So am I missing something?
I would love to know this as well. I guess LF is referring to Lancel, but he joined the Faith way before LF arrived at KL. Also, I just can't imagine that LF tells Olenna, "Hey, tell the High Sparrow about Lancel, he will imprison Cersei". The High Sparrow must already know about this, and this move would make it seem like he actually arrests whomever he is asked to arrest? I don't really understand... Well, the High Sparrow already arrested Margaery and Loras solely because Cersei told him about them, so.. yeah. Apparently he operates on that principle. Which is really confusing me, too.
There is at least some backing for Loras. People all over knew that he was gay, and it's been referenced on the show more than once. They actually somewhat build that up, because it really is a well-established fact that Loras is gay among the people of Westeros. His sister gets dragged in because she lies for him.
As far as Cersei goes though... I really cannot put together what LF said to Olenna and Cersei going down due to Lancel. It makes even less sense when you factor in the run-in LF and Lancel had, where they antagonized one another (well, Lancel more so).
So... yeah. I don't know.
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How can they keep making the sand snake plotline worse and worse? xD
First she poisons Bronn. Then she teases him. Then she gives him the antidote for no reason at all. At this rate they'll marry, have 2 kids, move to the burbs and divorce next episode.
On May 25 2015 19:27 Gullis wrote:There was one thing I started to thinking about, apparently the Stormcrows deserted Stannis but aren't those Darios company? Tinfoil on! + Show Spoiler +This puts them in position to do something with the Iron island. Dario=Euron theory anyone? 
Book Daario is a leader of the Stormcrows.
Show Daario is a lieutenant of the Second Sons.
Sometimes it really does feel like they are changing things just to annoy book readers. Although the truth probably is that they simply don't care enough to get it right.
Seriously, changing things that won't work on screen or on a TV show, is obviously fine, but what is the reason behind a change like that?
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On May 25 2015 23:51 Conti wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2015 23:39 Stratos_speAr wrote:On May 25 2015 21:33 Conti wrote:
The guys complaining here, for the most part, want a faithful adaption of the books, yet complain that the show is getting slow and boring. It's hilarious. The reason the show is so slow at the moment is because the source material they're adapting right now is so slow. If there's anyone to blame for this, it's the books, not the show. See, this is the problem. A lot of you are just blind fanboys of the show and create a useless caricature of what we are criticizing on the show. Barely anyone in the last several pages has mentioned anything about the books. It's all simply been about the fact that the writing for the TV show is just bad, regardless of the show's relationship to the books. As a stand-alone product, the writing for a number of the story lines is just weak, including Sansa's story, Dany's story, and particularly the whole Dorne thing. A lot of people in the last pages have complained about how slow and boring the show is now and that nothing has happened. That includes you, by the way. I'm not here to defend stuff like the Dorne storyline, or the surprisingly bad/boring fight choreography this season. I'm happy to admit that those aren't all too exciting. It just annoys me that a few bad scenes are picked out to declare this the worst show ever, basically. You could easily do the same with the books, but you don't want to hate the books, you want to hate the show.
As yes, I'm so glad that you are miraculously able to make a sweeping statement about my motivations.
Never mind the fact that I spent the good part of 4 or so pages being intensely critical of the last two books last week.
Again, over the last couple pages, the majority of criticisms haven't been about the show compared to the books; they've just been about the drop in quality of the show as a stand-alone product.
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You can't say "don't judge the show based on your preconception of the books" and at the the same time say "if the show is bad, it is because the books are bad".
The show has become its own thing and it is only fair to judge it as a standalone thing.
And as such, this season is simply mediocre at best.
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On May 25 2015 23:51 Conti wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2015 23:39 Stratos_speAr wrote:On May 25 2015 21:33 Conti wrote:
The guys complaining here, for the most part, want a faithful adaption of the books, yet complain that the show is getting slow and boring. It's hilarious. The reason the show is so slow at the moment is because the source material they're adapting right now is so slow. If there's anyone to blame for this, it's the books, not the show. See, this is the problem. A lot of you are just blind fanboys of the show and create a useless caricature of what we are criticizing on the show. Barely anyone in the last several pages has mentioned anything about the books. It's all simply been about the fact that the writing for the TV show is just bad, regardless of the show's relationship to the books. As a stand-alone product, the writing for a number of the story lines is just weak, including Sansa's story, Dany's story, and particularly the whole Dorne thing. A lot of people in the last pages have complained about how slow and boring the show is now and that nothing has happened. That includes you, by the way. I'm not here to defend stuff like the Dorne storyline, or the surprisingly bad/boring fight choreography this season. I'm happy to admit that those aren't all too exciting. It just annoys me that a few bad scenes are picked out to declare this the worst show ever, basically. You could easily do the same with the books, but you don't want to hate the books, you want to hate the show.
The problem is you are combining everyone who has a complaint into one person and trying to argue against them. Each person has their own complaints, some are bigger than others. Some are nitpicks, some are cringe worthy changes. Most of the recent complaints against the show would exist even if there were no books.
The writers have no excuse of it has to be slow "because the book material is slow" when they aren't following the book material in the first place. Personally I have never made that complaint though. I have seen more people who haven't read the books make that complaint than readers. I think it's because the big events that do happen don't feel earned or organic. Who cares if Bronn gets poisoned if he gets cured the next episode in the most ridiculous way possible?
There are just so many forced plots that the writers can't come up with a creative reason for something to happen that they want to happen. A marriage not being consummated changing from being legally binding to not binding from S4 to S5. Valyria being traversable in a single day via dingy and swimming. Greyscale being detectable within hours of infection, spreading to be the size of silver dollar in that time and not covering the entire body with a few days to a week, if not being fatal in that time, not leaving enough time for maesters to be called or the infected to be shipped to the leper greyscale colony. Littlefinger knowing that Stannis has enough men to take Winterfell before Stannis knows he has enough, prompting Stannis to unsuccessfully recruit the Wildlings and the Lords of the North, before finally, magically, having enough men.
Or the screenwriters taking away all organic character motivation, usually resulting in the character doing not only something completely against character but also the dumbest possible thing they could do in that situation. Examples – Littlefinger’s entire S5 plan. Jorah going through Valyria because of a fear of pirates, despite being in a little ass fishing boat, when he should have been more fearful of the Stonemen. Sansa not toasting to her own wedding when surrounded by flaying psychos. Dany forcing Hizdahr to marry her after executing his father, imprisoning him and threatening to kill him. Sansa getting raped nightly but obviously trying to provoke Ramsay by repeatedly calling him a bastard with no retribution.
Shiny Things – A trick used by the screenwriters to distract the audience from a situation of which they might otherwise question the logic. Used commonly in situations where the writer knows he has no plot advancement, character growth or just a really dumb situation and needs a way for the audience to not think too hard about it. Typically involves CGI or nipples. Examples – Almost all of Oberyn’s brothel scenes. Dany’s execution of an untried, probably innocent man as a response to the death of a man who warned her about executing untried, probably innocent men, where said execution was performed via dragon. Wooooooo, dragons. Ugh, where was I again….yeah, I guess that scene made sense.
Situations where both the audience and the characters should know better than to be distracted and this element usually involves an extremely improbable event being used in a time and a place whose coincidence makes it almost infinitely improbably. Examples – Jorah and Tyrion see a dragon at the precise moment they are about to be attacked by Stonemen, causing them to not notice the impending attack. Dany finding a fully qualified dragon tamer, off screen and unknown to the audience, between her visit to her crazy-want-to-eat-momma dragons and her fully-control/obedient-to-voice-commands dragons at the untried, probably innocent man’s execution.
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When I hear fighting pits I think Colosseum with thousands of people, Drogo flying in and kicking up dust. The fighting pit from the show was... underwhelming
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On May 26 2015 00:55 Emon_ wrote:
When I hear fighting pits I think Colosseum with thousands of people, Drogo flying in and kicking up dust. The fighting pit from the show was... underwhelming
Well that wasn't the real fighting pit in this episode.
Afaik that scene was shot in this one <- + Show Spoiler +
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Just answer me this, karazax: Could you not easily spend just as many paragraphs complaining about all kinds of details and plots from the books, moaning about them in the same way?
I don't disagree with quite a lot of the issues you point out there, to be honest. There are flaws, and some are quite blatant and obvious and no one in their right minds would defend them. The Sand Snakes. Dany executing some random guy. I just don't care about these issues as much as others do, just like I don't care about various issues the books have. They're still great overall, just like the show is still great. You can criticize these points without going full comic-book-guy ("Worst. Show. Ever.").
And then there are some other issues you point out that make you look like you are trying very, very hard to find something to complain about the show solely so you have something to complain about. Which is basically my issue here. Sansa not toasting to her own wedding? The supposed size of Valyria? Seriously?
This season isn't my favorite so far, certainly not, but if I'd go by what I'm reading here, I had to assume that the show has jumped the shark so hard that it better be cancelled tomorrow.
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I never found the same problems in the books. You are welcome to try though. You think the show is still great, I don't. That's the point of having a discussion on a forum is it not? To discuss why we disagree? If everyone thought it was the best or worst show ever and there were no disagreements there wouldn't be much to talk about. I don't think it's the worst show ever. I do think it's disappointing that it isn't better than what it is with the cast, budget and source material they have to work with. If it continues at the current level for the next two seasons it will be worth canceling at the end. But some people said they loved seeing Tyene's boobs and rated the episode a 10/10 for that scene alone so maybe that is the target audience they are after.
You do realize you contribute to the discussion by implying that there is nothing worth complaining about? Yes I found it stupid that everyone but Sansa would toast to their wedding when she went there with the goal of "winning Ramsay over" according to Littlefinger and Ramsay is a skin flaying psycho. Of course Sansa has plot armor to anything worse than a rape which they will likely act as if it never happened when they rejoin her to her book story line in the future. Yes it's stupid that they capsized off the boat as they were entering Valyria and Jorah revived Tyrion on the shore and they were already out of Valyria. Now if these were the worst changes of the season then they would be minor and they alone don't ruin the show. It just all adds up to diminish the quality.
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I can understand skipping on Sam's stop to Bravos during his trip to Old Town but skipping the whole trip and Old Town storyline altogether?! Really?!
This shit happens when you try to fit books 4 and 5 into 1 and half season.
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On May 26 2015 01:23 -Archangel- wrote:
I can understand skipping on Sam's stop to Bravos during his trip to Old Town but skipping the whole trip and Old Town storyline altogether?! Really?!
This shit happens when you try to fit books 4 and 5 into 1 and half season.
They mentioned the Citadel, I think Sam and Gilly will still go to Old Town after Jon arrives back with the rest of the Wildlings. I wouldn't be surprised if they bring Shireen with them instead of Mance's baby to save her from being burned. Of course Shireen is with Stannis now and not at the wall, but paying attention to how far apart and illogical travel times and geography are isn't something that has ever stopped them before.
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Stannis marches on Winterfell while winter is coming. Bloodmagic is in the air and Shereen Baratheon could ensure the victory if they sacrifice her to the red god. A man winning the throne but losing his family in the process. Renly killed, Robert murdered, his wife a zombie for the red god. Stannis appreciates Jon Snow, Davos and his Daughter. Book Davos is looking for Rickon on the island of Skagos. Book Jon Snow is on the wall in a wolf pelt.
Book Stannis only has Shereen with him at the camp who he has a bond to and no Davos to tell him otherwise. Surrounded by fanatics...
On the other hand, in the books winterfell is pretty much won and no bloodmagic is used that we know of
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Shireen is at the wall in the books though.
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On May 26 2015 01:21 karazax wrote:
I never found the same problems in the books. You are welcome to try though. You think the show is still great, I don't. That's the point of having a discussion on a forum is it not? To discuss why we disagree? If everyone thought it was the best or worst show ever and there were no disagreements there wouldn't be much to talk about. I don't think it's the worst show ever. I do think it's disappointing that it isn't better than what it is with the cast, budget and source material they have to work with. If it continues at the current level for the next two seasons it will be worth canceling at the end. But some people said they loved seeing Tyene's boobs and rated the episode a 10/10 for that scene alone so maybe that is the target audience they are after.
Oh come on now. The show had pointless sex scenes and pointless naked-ladies-scenes ever since it existed, and now you complain about them? That's truly the only thing that will probably be consistent with the show throughout its entire run.
It's fine to disagree and discuss the show. I'd love to do that. But some of your criticism of the show is just so out there and over-the-top that I'm not sure if it's worth getting into a discussion about it.
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On May 26 2015 01:31 Emon_ wrote:
Stannis marches on Winterfell while winter is coming. Bloodmagic is in the air and Shereen Baratheon could ensure the victory if they sacrifice her to the red god. A man winning the throne but losing his family in the process. Renly killed, Robert murdered, his wife a zombie for the red god. Stannis appreciates Jon Snow, Davos and his Daughter. Book Davos is looking for Rickon on the island of Skagos. Book Jon Snow is on the wall in a wolf pelt.
Book Stannis only has Shereen with him at the camp who he has a bond to and no Davos to tell him otherwise. Surrounded by fanatics...
On the other hand, in the books winterfell is pretty much won and no bloodmagic is used that we know of
Winterfell is pretty much won in the books? I never got that impression. In the books, it looks like Stannis' army is losing morale by the day, and that its ranks are shrinking. Lots of people are dying to the cold, others are walking, etc.
Stannis is marching and the battle is imminent, but as far as we know it could go either way. I mean, that is what I gathered from the text at least.
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On May 26 2015 01:40 Conti wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2015 01:21 karazax wrote:
I never found the same problems in the books. You are welcome to try though. You think the show is still great, I don't. That's the point of having a discussion on a forum is it not? To discuss why we disagree? If everyone thought it was the best or worst show ever and there were no disagreements there wouldn't be much to talk about. I don't think it's the worst show ever. I do think it's disappointing that it isn't better than what it is with the cast, budget and source material they have to work with. If it continues at the current level for the next two seasons it will be worth canceling at the end. But some people said they loved seeing Tyene's boobs and rated the episode a 10/10 for that scene alone so maybe that is the target audience they are after. Oh come on now. The show had pointless sex scenes and pointless naked-ladies-scenes ever since it existed, and now you complain about them? That's truly the only thing that will probably be consistent with the show throughout its entire run. It's fine to disagree and discuss the show. I'd love to do that. But some of your criticism of the show is just so out there and over-the-top that I'm not sure if it's worth getting into a discussion about it.
I've always complained about pointless sex scenes in the show. Not because of the sex, but because so many of them are poorly written. This was by far the worst one I can remember though since it wasn't really a sex scene and it makes no sense. You have a habit of not actually addressing my points and just dismissing them as not worth discussing. I understand if they don't bother you as much as they bother other people, but if you say it's not worth discussing they you sure are spending a lot of time "not discussing" them by dismissing them with out any sort of compelling argument to back you besides your personal opinion that they are trivial.
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On May 26 2015 01:40 Conti wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2015 01:21 karazax wrote:
I never found the same problems in the books. You are welcome to try though. You think the show is still great, I don't. That's the point of having a discussion on a forum is it not? To discuss why we disagree? If everyone thought it was the best or worst show ever and there were no disagreements there wouldn't be much to talk about. I don't think it's the worst show ever. I do think it's disappointing that it isn't better than what it is with the cast, budget and source material they have to work with. If it continues at the current level for the next two seasons it will be worth canceling at the end. But some people said they loved seeing Tyene's boobs and rated the episode a 10/10 for that scene alone so maybe that is the target audience they are after. Oh come on now. The show had pointless sex scenes and pointless naked-ladies-scenes ever since it existed, and now you complain about them? That's truly the only thing that will probably be consistent with the show throughout its entire run. It's fine to disagree and discuss the show. I'd love to do that. But some of your criticism of the show is just so out there and over-the-top that I'm not sure if it's worth getting into a discussion about it.
They're really not. Sure, some of his points are a little nit-picky, but he listed a large amount of very valid and common criticisms and you're just writing them all off without addressing them.
Your bias is showing pretty strongly here. You're pretty obviously just a huge fanboy of the show and don't want to face the fact that the show is diminishing in quality quite rapidly.
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On May 26 2015 02:16 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2015 01:40 Conti wrote:On May 26 2015 01:21 karazax wrote:
I never found the same problems in the books. You are welcome to try though. You think the show is still great, I don't. That's the point of having a discussion on a forum is it not? To discuss why we disagree? If everyone thought it was the best or worst show ever and there were no disagreements there wouldn't be much to talk about. I don't think it's the worst show ever. I do think it's disappointing that it isn't better than what it is with the cast, budget and source material they have to work with. If it continues at the current level for the next two seasons it will be worth canceling at the end. But some people said they loved seeing Tyene's boobs and rated the episode a 10/10 for that scene alone so maybe that is the target audience they are after. Oh come on now. The show had pointless sex scenes and pointless naked-ladies-scenes ever since it existed, and now you complain about them? That's truly the only thing that will probably be consistent with the show throughout its entire run. It's fine to disagree and discuss the show. I'd love to do that. But some of your criticism of the show is just so out there and over-the-top that I'm not sure if it's worth getting into a discussion about it. They're really not. Sure, some of his points are a little nit-picky, but he listed a large amount of very valid and common criticisms and you're just writing them all off without addressing them. Your bias is showing pretty strongly here. You're pretty obviously just a huge fanboy of the show and don't want to face the fact that the show is diminishing in quality quite rapidly.
The decline seems to mirror the decline in quality in the books.
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On May 26 2015 02:20 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2015 02:16 Stratos_speAr wrote:On May 26 2015 01:40 Conti wrote:On May 26 2015 01:21 karazax wrote:
I never found the same problems in the books. You are welcome to try though. You think the show is still great, I don't. That's the point of having a discussion on a forum is it not? To discuss why we disagree? If everyone thought it was the best or worst show ever and there were no disagreements there wouldn't be much to talk about. I don't think it's the worst show ever. I do think it's disappointing that it isn't better than what it is with the cast, budget and source material they have to work with. If it continues at the current level for the next two seasons it will be worth canceling at the end. But some people said they loved seeing Tyene's boobs and rated the episode a 10/10 for that scene alone so maybe that is the target audience they are after. Oh come on now. The show had pointless sex scenes and pointless naked-ladies-scenes ever since it existed, and now you complain about them? That's truly the only thing that will probably be consistent with the show throughout its entire run. It's fine to disagree and discuss the show. I'd love to do that. But some of your criticism of the show is just so out there and over-the-top that I'm not sure if it's worth getting into a discussion about it. They're really not. Sure, some of his points are a little nit-picky, but he listed a large amount of very valid and common criticisms and you're just writing them all off without addressing them. Your bias is showing pretty strongly here. You're pretty obviously just a huge fanboy of the show and don't want to face the fact that the show is diminishing in quality quite rapidly. The decline seems to mirror the decline in quality in the books.
No the books are way better at this point. The books complaint is about too many pages needed for something to happen. The show could have easily cut the extra and showed the good parts, but they decided to cut the good parts as well and add their own bad parts. Now we are left with nothing good to watch.
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On May 26 2015 02:37 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2015 02:20 xDaunt wrote:On May 26 2015 02:16 Stratos_speAr wrote:On May 26 2015 01:40 Conti wrote:On May 26 2015 01:21 karazax wrote:
I never found the same problems in the books. You are welcome to try though. You think the show is still great, I don't. That's the point of having a discussion on a forum is it not? To discuss why we disagree? If everyone thought it was the best or worst show ever and there were no disagreements there wouldn't be much to talk about. I don't think it's the worst show ever. I do think it's disappointing that it isn't better than what it is with the cast, budget and source material they have to work with. If it continues at the current level for the next two seasons it will be worth canceling at the end. But some people said they loved seeing Tyene's boobs and rated the episode a 10/10 for that scene alone so maybe that is the target audience they are after. Oh come on now. The show had pointless sex scenes and pointless naked-ladies-scenes ever since it existed, and now you complain about them? That's truly the only thing that will probably be consistent with the show throughout its entire run. It's fine to disagree and discuss the show. I'd love to do that. But some of your criticism of the show is just so out there and over-the-top that I'm not sure if it's worth getting into a discussion about it. They're really not. Sure, some of his points are a little nit-picky, but he listed a large amount of very valid and common criticisms and you're just writing them all off without addressing them. Your bias is showing pretty strongly here. You're pretty obviously just a huge fanboy of the show and don't want to face the fact that the show is diminishing in quality quite rapidly. The decline seems to mirror the decline in quality in the books. No the books are way better at this point. The books complaint is about too many pages needed for something to happen. The show could have easily cut the extra and showed the good parts, but they decided to cut the good parts as well and add their own bad parts. Now we are left with nothing good to watch.
Agreed. I've been a vocal critic of the books, but they're still good, even though there are some problems. The show has a lot more problems with it than the books do.
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