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On June 11 2015 16:14 Velitation wrote:
I'm still scratching my head on specific situations when you NEED to build Lotus Orb. Any ideas (other than reflecting Doom)? Linkens still seems to be more reliable since you don't need to cast it before use (and can still give the shield to allies).
I dont think you ever need the item.
I see it as more of a Blademail 2.0. You often want it on tanky frontline/initiator heroes who are expected to be going first into the enemy team, or at least be running into them when they join the fight. Lotus has the benefit that you can use it on a teammate so he doesnt have to use it himself, but also obviously much more expensive. But the problem is kinda that the heroes who'd want Lotus effect (Axe, Clock, etc) might not want the stats on it, or might just need other items more. Meanwhile heroes who can sit back and use the effect on a teammate (almost always supports i guess) are likely building other cheaper and more effective items like force/glimmer/blink/etc. Its hard to see exactly who would really want the item. Thats just my personal observation though, maybe I missed something.
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does octerine core apply the cd reduction instantly even if the spell was already in cd? eg: if i cast a spell will dropping it change the cd will picking it again change the cd?
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Northern Ireland22212 Posts
On June 11 2015 19:21 Shock710 wrote:
does octerine core apply the cd reduction instantly even if the spell was already in cd? eg: if i cast a spell will dropping it change the cd will picking it again change the cd?
no, octarine must be in the inventory when the spell/item is used. cooldowns are never updated retroactively. for example, lion's finger has a 160s cd at lvl 1. if you kill someone with it and get to lvl 11, you will still need to wait 160s before it comes off cooldown. however the next time you use it, it'll be 100s cd instead.
this is why, situationally, if you level up in a fight, it might be worth it to skip skilling up a high cooldown ability that was used, and instead put the point into another ability. however, as it takes a disproportionate amount of exp to go from lvl 11 to lvl 12, this can be a bad idea for supports who generally get less exp than cores.
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There's recently a famous vod of RTZ 3 min leshrac bloodstone against SF mid. vod link. Could anyone explain to me how he got the FB?
It seems like RTZ last hit from down hill, fight SF even when he has fewer creeps around, etc. which goes against all the important mid tactics that I've learned about. Yet SF doesn't seem to punish that.
I'm sure both of these players are leagues above me, so I really want to understand how RTZ manages to be so aggressive like that to get FB.
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On June 11 2015 23:24 Quochobao wrote:There's recently a famous vod of RTZ 3 min leshrac bloodstone against SF mid. vod link. Could anyone explain to me how he got the FB? It seems like RTZ last hit from down hill, fight SF even when he has fewer creeps around, etc. which goes against all the important mid tactics that I've learned about. Yet SF doesn't seem to punish that. I'm sure both of these players are leagues above me, so I really want to understand how RTZ manages to be so aggressive like that to get FB.
not sure if we watched the same thing but i saw a wisp making him dive the sf for fb
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SF doesn't have many souls that early so he hits like a bitch while rtz had support from wisp too.
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On June 11 2015 23:29 ChunderBoy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2015 23:24 Quochobao wrote:There's recently a famous vod of RTZ 3 min leshrac bloodstone against SF mid. vod link. Could anyone explain to me how he got the FB? It seems like RTZ last hit from down hill, fight SF even when he has fewer creeps around, etc. which goes against all the important mid tactics that I've learned about. Yet SF doesn't seem to punish that. I'm sure both of these players are leagues above me, so I really want to understand how RTZ manages to be so aggressive like that to get FB. not sure if we watched the same thing but i saw a wisp making him dive the sf for fb
Yeah the FB had wisp's help, but before that RTZ softened SF up a lot even though he should be disadvantaged. For example, around this part onwards he's aggressive while being downhill and has fewer creeps
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On June 11 2015 23:50 Quochobao wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2015 23:29 ChunderBoy wrote:On June 11 2015 23:24 Quochobao wrote:There's recently a famous vod of RTZ 3 min leshrac bloodstone against SF mid. vod link. Could anyone explain to me how he got the FB? It seems like RTZ last hit from down hill, fight SF even when he has fewer creeps around, etc. which goes against all the important mid tactics that I've learned about. Yet SF doesn't seem to punish that. I'm sure both of these players are leagues above me, so I really want to understand how RTZ manages to be so aggressive like that to get FB. not sure if we watched the same thing but i saw a wisp making him dive the sf for fb Yeah the FB had wisp's help, but before that RTZ softened SF up a lot even though he should be disadvantaged. For example, around this part onwards he's aggressive while being downhill and has fewer creeps
sf is rly weak at lvls 1-2 so u play as aggressive as possible
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On June 11 2015 16:27 Kreb wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2015 16:14 Velitation wrote:
I'm still scratching my head on specific situations when you NEED to build Lotus Orb. Any ideas (other than reflecting Doom)? Linkens still seems to be more reliable since you don't need to cast it before use (and can still give the shield to allies). I dont think you ever need the item. I see it as more of a Blademail 2.0. You often want it on tanky frontline/initiator heroes who are expected to be going first into the enemy team, or at least be running into them when they join the fight. Lotus has the benefit that you can use it on a teammate so he doesnt have to use it himself, but also obviously much more expensive. But the problem is kinda that the heroes who'd want Lotus effect (Axe, Clock, etc) might not want the stats on it, or might just need other items more. Meanwhile heroes who can sit back and use the effect on a teammate (almost always supports i guess) are likely building other cheaper and more effective items like force/glimmer/blink/etc. Its hard to see exactly who would really want the item. Thats just my personal observation though, maybe I missed something.
I agree that it has a very different purpose to Linken's.
Linken's is effective against teams that have only a couple of very important spells that it blocks. For example,. Lasso, Laguna Blade, Primal Roar etc. It goes on cooldown once it's procced, so you don't want them to be able to waste that with some low-cooldown regular spell.
Lotus Orb reflects ALL targeted spells for a duration, but you have to cast it for that. So I see it as being most effective when the enemy team has many such abilities that they want to use consecutively.
Also, it applies a normal dispel on cast, so if the enemy team having important debuffs you can remove with this also makes it a potential buy. All hexes are removed by normal dispels, by the way.
To give an example, you never want to buy Linken's against Lion, because he can pop it with his 5 second cooldown Mana Drain. Conversely, Lotus Orb against Lion is absolutely hilarious because it reflects everything he can do and even removes his Hex altogether.
However, the cost and stats of the item are definitely weird and awkward, so it's hard to say who would reliably get it on a team.
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On June 12 2015 05:43 GentleDrill wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2015 16:27 Kreb wrote:On June 11 2015 16:14 Velitation wrote:
I'm still scratching my head on specific situations when you NEED to build Lotus Orb. Any ideas (other than reflecting Doom)? Linkens still seems to be more reliable since you don't need to cast it before use (and can still give the shield to allies). I dont think you ever need the item. I see it as more of a Blademail 2.0. You often want it on tanky frontline/initiator heroes who are expected to be going first into the enemy team, or at least be running into them when they join the fight. Lotus has the benefit that you can use it on a teammate so he doesnt have to use it himself, but also obviously much more expensive. But the problem is kinda that the heroes who'd want Lotus effect (Axe, Clock, etc) might not want the stats on it, or might just need other items more. Meanwhile heroes who can sit back and use the effect on a teammate (almost always supports i guess) are likely building other cheaper and more effective items like force/glimmer/blink/etc. Its hard to see exactly who would really want the item. Thats just my personal observation though, maybe I missed something. I agree that it has a very different purpose to Linken's. Linken's is effective against teams that have only a couple of very important spells that it blocks. For example,. Lasso, Laguna Blade, Primal Roar etc. It goes on cooldown once it's procced, so you don't want them to be able to waste that with some low-cooldown regular spell. Lotus Orb reflects ALL targeted spells for a duration, but you have to cast it for that. So I see it as being most effective when the enemy team has many such abilities that they want to use consecutively. Also, it applies a normal dispel on cast, so if the enemy team having important debuffs you can remove with this also makes it a potential buy. All hexes are removed by normal dispels, by the way. To give an example, you never want to buy Linken's against Lion, because he can pop it with his 5 second cooldown Mana Drain. Conversely, Lotus Orb against Lion is absolutely hilarious because it reflects everything he can do and even removes his Hex altogether. However, the cost and stats of the item are definitely weird and awkward, so it's hard to say who would reliably get it on a team.
You get a support to build it as a fourth or fifth item, even sixth item sometimes, for super late game. Then they put it on their carry whenever a team fight goes down. Seems really straight-forward to me; no core really wants to build this item but they want the effect of it.
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On June 12 2015 06:26 Birdie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2015 05:43 GentleDrill wrote:On June 11 2015 16:27 Kreb wrote:On June 11 2015 16:14 Velitation wrote:
I'm still scratching my head on specific situations when you NEED to build Lotus Orb. Any ideas (other than reflecting Doom)? Linkens still seems to be more reliable since you don't need to cast it before use (and can still give the shield to allies). I dont think you ever need the item. I see it as more of a Blademail 2.0. You often want it on tanky frontline/initiator heroes who are expected to be going first into the enemy team, or at least be running into them when they join the fight. Lotus has the benefit that you can use it on a teammate so he doesnt have to use it himself, but also obviously much more expensive. But the problem is kinda that the heroes who'd want Lotus effect (Axe, Clock, etc) might not want the stats on it, or might just need other items more. Meanwhile heroes who can sit back and use the effect on a teammate (almost always supports i guess) are likely building other cheaper and more effective items like force/glimmer/blink/etc. Its hard to see exactly who would really want the item. Thats just my personal observation though, maybe I missed something. I agree that it has a very different purpose to Linken's. Linken's is effective against teams that have only a couple of very important spells that it blocks. For example,. Lasso, Laguna Blade, Primal Roar etc. It goes on cooldown once it's procced, so you don't want them to be able to waste that with some low-cooldown regular spell. Lotus Orb reflects ALL targeted spells for a duration, but you have to cast it for that. So I see it as being most effective when the enemy team has many such abilities that they want to use consecutively. Also, it applies a normal dispel on cast, so if the enemy team having important debuffs you can remove with this also makes it a potential buy. All hexes are removed by normal dispels, by the way. To give an example, you never want to buy Linken's against Lion, because he can pop it with his 5 second cooldown Mana Drain. Conversely, Lotus Orb against Lion is absolutely hilarious because it reflects everything he can do and even removes his Hex altogether. However, the cost and stats of the item are definitely weird and awkward, so it's hard to say who would reliably get it on a team. You get a support to build it as a fourth or fifth item, even sixth item sometimes, for super late game. Then they put it on their carry whenever a team fight goes down. Seems really straight-forward to me; no core really wants to build this item but they want the effect of it.
Support get a 4th-6th item in like one game out of 50. Discussing that is like discussing the 10th-12th lone druid item. And even in those cases its highly questionable whether you'd want a random Lotus orb over hexes/Aghs/refreshers/linkens/eblades/whatever.
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And as someone pointed of, the stats on Lotus are really awkward.
-Frontliners/"tanks" who want the effect rarely want the mana regen or damage.
-Supports who can use the mana regen dont want the damage, and the armor will hardly save a random 1k health support from anything. And its too expensive for them too.
-Heavy spell casting cores who typically want the regen likely doesnt care much about the damage. And even if you're the tanky kind of int core (DP as an example) 4k for 10 armor isnt well spent money to get your survivability up. I think spell damage cores are the most likely to ever pick it up though, but I cant see any hero where its a clear core item.
-And physical cores will obviously not buy it either.
4k is just a lot when you likely only use 1 or 2 of the stats.
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On June 12 2015 18:00 Kreb wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2015 06:26 Birdie wrote:On June 12 2015 05:43 GentleDrill wrote:On June 11 2015 16:27 Kreb wrote:On June 11 2015 16:14 Velitation wrote:
I'm still scratching my head on specific situations when you NEED to build Lotus Orb. Any ideas (other than reflecting Doom)? Linkens still seems to be more reliable since you don't need to cast it before use (and can still give the shield to allies). I dont think you ever need the item. I see it as more of a Blademail 2.0. You often want it on tanky frontline/initiator heroes who are expected to be going first into the enemy team, or at least be running into them when they join the fight. Lotus has the benefit that you can use it on a teammate so he doesnt have to use it himself, but also obviously much more expensive. But the problem is kinda that the heroes who'd want Lotus effect (Axe, Clock, etc) might not want the stats on it, or might just need other items more. Meanwhile heroes who can sit back and use the effect on a teammate (almost always supports i guess) are likely building other cheaper and more effective items like force/glimmer/blink/etc. Its hard to see exactly who would really want the item. Thats just my personal observation though, maybe I missed something. I agree that it has a very different purpose to Linken's. Linken's is effective against teams that have only a couple of very important spells that it blocks. For example,. Lasso, Laguna Blade, Primal Roar etc. It goes on cooldown once it's procced, so you don't want them to be able to waste that with some low-cooldown regular spell. Lotus Orb reflects ALL targeted spells for a duration, but you have to cast it for that. So I see it as being most effective when the enemy team has many such abilities that they want to use consecutively. Also, it applies a normal dispel on cast, so if the enemy team having important debuffs you can remove with this also makes it a potential buy. All hexes are removed by normal dispels, by the way. To give an example, you never want to buy Linken's against Lion, because he can pop it with his 5 second cooldown Mana Drain. Conversely, Lotus Orb against Lion is absolutely hilarious because it reflects everything he can do and even removes his Hex altogether. However, the cost and stats of the item are definitely weird and awkward, so it's hard to say who would reliably get it on a team. You get a support to build it as a fourth or fifth item, even sixth item sometimes, for super late game. Then they put it on their carry whenever a team fight goes down. Seems really straight-forward to me; no core really wants to build this item but they want the effect of it. Support get a 4th-6th item in like one game out of 50. Discussing that is like discussing the 10th-12th lone druid item. And even in those cases its highly questionable whether you'd want a random Lotus orb over hexes/Aghs/refreshers/linkens/eblades/whatever.
Yes, it is a super late game item, and not many games go super late. It's still the only time you're going to buy this item, unless you're playing against a lineup which specifically requires it (Lina comes to mind). It's an awkward item for a support to rush, no carry wants to rush it, an offlaner might build it but it would still be a later-on kind of item.
We can even see that professional players think this too: http://www.datdota.com/stats.php?p=items&item=226&item_category=2&hero=&player=&side=0&patch=12&season=0&event=&team=&prize=3®ion=0&team_opp=&in_wins=0&match_time=0&day_after=&month_after=&year_after=&day_before=&month_before=&year_before=
Only built after ~35 minutes, if it's on an offlaner, and after ~50 minutes, if it's a support. NEVER built on a position 1 or 2.
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On June 12 2015 18:14 Kreb wrote:
And as someone pointed of, the stats on Lotus are really awkward.
-Frontliners/"tanks" who want the effect rarely want the mana regen or damage.
-Supports who can use the mana regen dont want the damage, and the armor will hardly save a random 1k health support from anything. And its too expensive for them too.
-Heavy spell casting cores who typically want the regen likely doesnt care much about the damage. And even if you're the tanky kind of int core (DP as an example) 4k for 10 armor isnt well spent money to get your survivability up. I think spell damage cores are the most likely to ever pick it up though, but I cant see any hero where its a clear core item.
-And physical cores will obviously not buy it either.
4k is just a lot when you likely only use 1 or 2 of the stats.
Yes, that's something I was also thinking about. I believe the stats mostly (or only) fit supports/offlaners that have a high natural hp gain (while lacking mana) and tend to spend some time in the middle of a fight. Treant, ogre magi, undying, omni, doom, tide, abba, clock, maybe some others. But for any of those it's still more situational than core indeed.
However notice that most of those heroes (from what I've seen) are kinda out of the current meta. So if my "theory" is correct, the fact that we've rarely seen pros build lotus orb might be more tied to those heroes than to the item itself.
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Northern Ireland22212 Posts
cuz mid omni is the best 
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On June 12 2015 18:20 Birdie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2015 18:00 Kreb wrote:On June 12 2015 06:26 Birdie wrote:On June 12 2015 05:43 GentleDrill wrote:On June 11 2015 16:27 Kreb wrote:On June 11 2015 16:14 Velitation wrote:
I'm still scratching my head on specific situations when you NEED to build Lotus Orb. Any ideas (other than reflecting Doom)? Linkens still seems to be more reliable since you don't need to cast it before use (and can still give the shield to allies). I dont think you ever need the item. I see it as more of a Blademail 2.0. You often want it on tanky frontline/initiator heroes who are expected to be going first into the enemy team, or at least be running into them when they join the fight. Lotus has the benefit that you can use it on a teammate so he doesnt have to use it himself, but also obviously much more expensive. But the problem is kinda that the heroes who'd want Lotus effect (Axe, Clock, etc) might not want the stats on it, or might just need other items more. Meanwhile heroes who can sit back and use the effect on a teammate (almost always supports i guess) are likely building other cheaper and more effective items like force/glimmer/blink/etc. Its hard to see exactly who would really want the item. Thats just my personal observation though, maybe I missed something. I agree that it has a very different purpose to Linken's. Linken's is effective against teams that have only a couple of very important spells that it blocks. For example,. Lasso, Laguna Blade, Primal Roar etc. It goes on cooldown once it's procced, so you don't want them to be able to waste that with some low-cooldown regular spell. Lotus Orb reflects ALL targeted spells for a duration, but you have to cast it for that. So I see it as being most effective when the enemy team has many such abilities that they want to use consecutively. Also, it applies a normal dispel on cast, so if the enemy team having important debuffs you can remove with this also makes it a potential buy. All hexes are removed by normal dispels, by the way. To give an example, you never want to buy Linken's against Lion, because he can pop it with his 5 second cooldown Mana Drain. Conversely, Lotus Orb against Lion is absolutely hilarious because it reflects everything he can do and even removes his Hex altogether. However, the cost and stats of the item are definitely weird and awkward, so it's hard to say who would reliably get it on a team. You get a support to build it as a fourth or fifth item, even sixth item sometimes, for super late game. Then they put it on their carry whenever a team fight goes down. Seems really straight-forward to me; no core really wants to build this item but they want the effect of it. Support get a 4th-6th item in like one game out of 50. Discussing that is like discussing the 10th-12th lone druid item. And even in those cases its highly questionable whether you'd want a random Lotus orb over hexes/Aghs/refreshers/linkens/eblades/whatever. Yes, it is a super late game item, and not many games go super late. It's still the only time you're going to buy this item, unless you're playing against a lineup which specifically requires it (Lina comes to mind). It's an awkward item for a support to rush, no carry wants to rush it, an offlaner might build it but it would still be a later-on kind of item. We can even see that professional players think this too: http://www.datdota.com/stats.php?p=items&item=226&item_category=2&hero=&player=&side=0&patch=12&season=0&event=&team=&prize=3®ion=0&team_opp=&in_wins=0&match_time=0&day_after=&month_after=&year_after=&day_before=&month_before=&year_before=Only built after ~35 minutes, if it's on an offlaner, and after ~50 minutes, if it's a support. NEVER built on a position 1 or 2.
The components are also godawful as you already solved your regen issues before and the armor won't do much on a backliner.
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United States47024 Posts
On June 12 2015 05:43 GentleDrill wrote:
To give an example, you never want to buy Linken's against Lion, because he can pop it with his 5 second cooldown Mana Drain.
That's not really right either because for most heroes that use Linken's as a split-push/farming item, forcing Lion to mana drain first is actually enough time to get away because the only thing you care about is making sure that Hex can't be the first spell in his rotation (since it has no animation, and his cast animation for everything else is ass by comparison) if he Blinks on you. Conversely, Lotus Orb is completely worthless for this situation because there's absolutely no way for you to reaction Lotus the Hex on yourself.
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can gem be sold during 8 sec cooldown?? for some reason i cant sell gems when i buy them but there nothing on the wiki and draksyl just sed smt abt selling it
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Northern Ireland22212 Posts
On June 13 2015 07:12 FFGenerations wrote:
can gem be sold during 8 sec cooldown?? for some reason i cant sell gems when i buy them but there nothing on the wiki and draksyl just sed smt abt selling it
dunno but gems can't normally be sold and destroyed
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EPT
