EPTdark seer solo
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notthepenguin
United States7 Posts
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k1w1
United States22 Posts
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notthepenguin
United States7 Posts
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YODA_
593 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On September 27 2012 09:34 notthepenguin wrote: i feel like putting ion shell on ranged creep doesnt achieve much, and then shelling melee creeps just pushes you unecessarily into enemy towers, forcing you to go out for exp and risk being forced to surge out You're underestimating how strong a wave of creeps is at level 1/2. With 2 Ion Shells on a wave, the creeps can very quickly clear the enemy creeps losing only 1 creep on that wave. And 3 creeps + DS actually presents a pretty big counter-kill threat if the carry + support try to kill DS at level 1. Also, Dark Seer has arguably the highest level 1 baseline survivability of any hero in the game. High base armor AND high base HP. If the lane is too tough to handle for that, then DS can simply ditch the lane and go jungle until level 2-3 + Bottle or Boots. Furthermore, if the enemy team controls the creep wave improperly, pushing a wave into tower can actually cause the creep pressure to build up toward your side. Because the tower kills some of the creeps, part of the enemy creep wave survives, meaning their next wave is stronger by however many creeps survived--meaning their wave will push to your side, letting you get farm. The enemy team can pull creeps to stop this, but DS is also very good at stealing creep pulls with Ion Shell. | ||
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notthepenguin
United States7 Posts
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PatouPower
Canada1119 Posts
Also, I find it really bad on melee creeps (unless you want to push, which I don't understand if you are alone in a lane) for multiple reasons. First of all, it makes the creep easier to deny. I always find creeps that lose health due to ion shell easy to last hit because of the constant but low damage coming from it, so you don't necessarily get gold. Also, it pushes your lane like hell so you don't get any XP against a trilane, and it doesn't really damage your tower since any player with a brains knows how to aggro creeps between the T1 and T2 towers, where it's even easier to kill an adventurous DS as a trilane. The reason I see for people putting him on the hard lane is the fact that he's still decent at staying alive (not as much as WR though), doesn't require you to pick another solo, but is one of the most OP hero mid/late game due to his wall/vacuum combo. So only being in the game, even poor, makes him a really useful hero. | ||
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LAN-f34r
New Zealand2099 Posts
Basically, he does everything that a solo side wants to do (except deny ie enigma, lich). And he does it better/sooner than almost everyone else. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On September 27 2012 11:42 PatouPower wrote: The reason I see for people putting him on the hard lane is the fact that he's still decent at staying alive (not as much as WR though), doesn't require you to pick another solo, but is one of the most OP hero mid/late game due to his wall/vacuum combo. So only being in the game, even poor, makes him a really useful hero. Dark Seer's ability to stay alive on hard lane far exceed's Windrunner's. His base survivability is just way higher than hers--he has almost 150 more HP at level 1, 4 more base armor, and is melee and thereby benefits from the full damage block of a Stout Shield. Windrun gives 100% evasion, but also doesn't give her 522 MS until after she has boots, and has a prohibitively high mana cost for using repeatedly (whereas Surge costs almost nothing). The thing is, there are no heroes that should get any XP against a properly played 3v1. That's all. So comparing the ability to stand up in a 1v3 is a little bit silly because that's a zero XP scenario for all heroes unless they have some other means of getting XP (which DS actually does because he can go jungle and come back to lane after he gains some levels). If it's merely a 1v2, then DS has no trouble getting XP. Even if you deny the creeps being burnt by Ion Shell, he gets the majority of the XP because he is melee (denied creeps give greater partial XP to melee heroes than ranged). | ||
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EchelonTee
United States5245 Posts
On September 27 2012 11:02 notthepenguin wrote: i see. thanks for the input, do you have any particular replays i can watch that showcase this kind of dark seer lane control? I would look and see any of the games from The International 2 with Dark Seer; that way, you can look at the games in the Dota client, and use the pro players FPV. You can look up recent games of the hero here. http://dota-academy.com/hero/53/ Here's LightofHeavoN on him, Na`Vi vs mTw. It's only 1v2, and DS for the most part dominates the lane, getting good farm/exp. | ||
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boxman22
Canada430 Posts
On September 27 2012 11:42 PatouPower wrote: I feel like DS hard lane is only good against inexperienced players and/or stalling a lane while you wait for people to mass push it. Ion shell on a ranged creep achieves almost nothing at all because you are not gonna stand next to it anyways. Also, I find it really bad on melee creeps (unless you want to push, which I don't understand if you are alone in a lane) for multiple reasons. First of all, it makes the creep easier to deny. I always find creeps that lose health due to ion shell easy to last hit because of the constant but low damage coming from it, so you don't necessarily get gold. Also, it pushes your lane like hell so you don't get any XP against a trilane, and it doesn't really damage your tower since any player with a brains knows how to aggro creeps between the T1 and T2 towers, where it's even easier to kill an adventurous DS as a trilane. The reason I see for people putting him on the hard lane is the fact that he's still decent at staying alive (not as much as WR though), doesn't require you to pick another solo, but is one of the most OP hero mid/late game due to his wall/vacuum combo. So only being in the game, even poor, makes him a really useful hero. Yea that's why ds was used 36 times in the International 2, most times as suicide solo, right? All those inexperienced teams like iG and Na'Vi could be abused by DS quite easily... | ||
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LAN-f34r
New Zealand2099 Posts
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DucK-
Singapore11447 Posts
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Medzo
United States627 Posts
He can solo any lane really easily, even 1on2. When you have a soul ring activate and cast ion shell on a melee creep before they reach your tower, and then on another as soon as the cooldown finishes. Giving you two ion shells to clear the creep wave and also damage enemy heroes that want to get in close for cs. On top of that he has surge to get away from enemies. I start off with a stout shield, 3 iron branches, a tango, and 2 clarities. Surge first. When you're level two start putting ion shells on your creeps and go in for some last hits. Pre-soul ring you will have to get in close and be careful not to get ganked so you can get soul ring money. Becuase you dont have the mana to cast ion shell forever yet you need to be prepared to take hits with your stout shield/tangos. You can buy the sobi and the ring of regen (in that order usually) from the side shops. When youre level 3 you can start putting 2 ion shells up at once and rely on your 2 clarities to get you the soul ring. Usually I go surge, ion, ion, surge, ion, vacuum, ion, ult, vacuum, vacuum, vacuum. Level 2 surge before vortex because mostly what you're doing is pushing the lane and getting cs with ion shell. Level one vortex has a small radius and while it CAN potentially sometimes get you a kill, level 2 surge can potentially save you more often. In team fights you put your ultimate (wall) down and then vortex enemies through the wall. Source: me. Very high rated. Check out this game I had last night its a good dark seer game as far as laning and pushing goes. Not the best ults though. Match ID: 43854310 | ||
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Tryxtira
Sweden572 Posts
On September 27 2012 14:03 Medzo wrote: Hey. He can solo any lane really easily, even 1on2. When you have a soul ring activate and cast ion shell on a melee creep before they reach your tower, and then on another as soon as the cooldown finishes. Giving you two ion shells to clear the creep wave and also damage enemy heroes that want to get in close for cs. On top of that he has surge to get away from enemies. I start off with a stout shield, 3 iron branches, a tango, and 2 clarities. Surge first. When you're level two start putting ion shells on your creeps and go in for some last hits. Pre-soul ring you will have to get in close and be careful not to get ganked so you can get soul ring money. Becuase you dont have the mana to cast ion shell forever yet you need to be prepared to take hits with your stout shield/tangos. You can buy the sobi and the ring of regen (in that order usually) from the side shops. When youre level 3 you can start putting 2 ion shells up at once and rely on your 2 clarities to get you the soul ring. Usually I go surge, ion, ion, surge, ion, vacuum, ion, ult, vacuum, vacuum, vacuum. Level 2 surge before vortex because mostly what you're doing is pushing the lane and getting cs with ion shell. Level one vortex has a small radius and while it CAN potentially sometimes get you a kill, level 2 surge can potentially save you more often. In team fights you put your ultimate (wall) down and then vortex enemies through the wall. Source: me. Very high rated. Check out this game I had last night its a good dark seer game as far as laning and pushing goes. Not the best ults though. Match ID: 43854310 Please do not use yourself as source when you go wall on level 6 without even discussing it. You come of as really arrogant. | ||
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Medzo
United States627 Posts
On September 27 2012 17:59 Tryxtira wrote: + Show Spoiler + On September 27 2012 14:03 Medzo wrote: Hey. He can solo any lane really easily, even 1on2. When you have a soul ring activate and cast ion shell on a melee creep before they reach your tower, and then on another as soon as the cooldown finishes. Giving you two ion shells to clear the creep wave and also damage enemy heroes that want to get in close for cs. On top of that he has surge to get away from enemies. I start off with a stout shield, 3 iron branches, a tango, and 2 clarities. Surge first. When you're level two start putting ion shells on your creeps and go in for some last hits. Pre-soul ring you will have to get in close and be careful not to get ganked so you can get soul ring money. Becuase you dont have the mana to cast ion shell forever yet you need to be prepared to take hits with your stout shield/tangos. You can buy the sobi and the ring of regen (in that order usually) from the side shops. When youre level 3 you can start putting 2 ion shells up at once and rely on your 2 clarities to get you the soul ring. Usually I go surge, ion, ion, surge, ion, vacuum, ion, ult, vacuum, vacuum, vacuum. Level 2 surge before vortex because mostly what you're doing is pushing the lane and getting cs with ion shell. Level one vortex has a small radius and while it CAN potentially sometimes get you a kill, level 2 surge can potentially save you more often. In team fights you put your ultimate (wall) down and then vortex enemies through the wall. Source: me. Very high rated. Check out this game I had last night its a good dark seer game as far as laning and pushing goes. Not the best ults though. Match ID: 43854310 Please do not use yourself as source when you go wall on level 6 without even discussing it. You come of as really arrogant. lol seriously? I use myself as a source cause it comes from my experience. I really don't know how other people play him because I have pretty good success like this. You reading into it too much. But anyway I get ult at 6 usually because a lot of people group up early and push fast and it tends to work out well for me. | ||
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Tryxtira
Sweden572 Posts
On September 27 2012 18:03 Medzo wrote: lol seriously? I use myself as a source cause it comes from my experience. I really don't know how other people play him because I have pretty good success like this. You reading into it too much. But anyway I get ult at 6 usually because a lot of people group up early and push fast and it tends to work out well for me. Yeah, sorry if my response came of harsh as well. What I meant to do was advice you not to say stuff like that in the future. It gets on peoples nerves and I found it really arrogant even though I'm sure that was not your intention!  | ||
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Leddix
Denmark25 Posts
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Kishin2
United States7534 Posts
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k1w1
United States22 Posts
On September 27 2012 12:14 TheYango wrote: Dark Seer's ability to stay alive on hard lane far exceed's Windrunner's. His base survivability is just way higher than hers--he has almost 150 more HP at level 1, 4 more base armor, and is melee and thereby benefits from the full damage block of a Stout Shield. Windrun gives 100% evasion, but also doesn't give her 522 MS until after she has boots, and has a prohibitively high mana cost for using repeatedly (whereas Surge costs almost nothing). The difference though is that WR is much better at setting up ganks in a 1v2 lane. Windrun to initiate with shackle (if placed right) can really be a good opener, especially around level 5 or 6 when you're getting 2 points into it. And the obvious advantage of ranged harass. Also another points to DS, with surge you really don't need boots until your team is pushing t2's or the other team is playing 5 man dota. You can just surge everywhere if you need to go D Mid or TP if there's a gank bot. If I'm going tanky build with vanguard/aghs/pipe I'll usually get my boots after I finish vanguard. | ||
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Heh_
Singapore2712 Posts
On September 27 2012 22:16 k1w1 wrote: The difference though is that WR is much better at setting up ganks in a 1v2 lane. Windrun to initiate with shackle (if placed right) can really be a good opener, especially around level 5 or 6 when you're getting 2 points into it. And the obvious advantage of ranged harass. Also another points to DS, with surge you really don't need boots until your team is pushing t2's or the other team is playing 5 man dota. You can just surge everywhere if you need to go D Mid or TP if there's a gank bot. If I'm going tanky build with vanguard/aghs/pipe I'll usually get my boots after I finish vanguard. Unless you max out surge before shell/vac, you're only running at max speed 3 seconds out of every 12. And there's that annoying 0.4 second cast time so you're not actually moving fast. Darkseer still needs boots pretty early. | ||
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k1w1
United States22 Posts
At the end of the day it's definitely situational and preferential, but I like to not get boots first if I can and get up a vanguard or hood first. | ||
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scorch-
United States816 Posts
Easy farming if you get 2 ion shells up on your melee creeps Strong escape skill with decent ward vision One of the strongest anti-carry skills in the game (wall) Skill that increases the damage output and cc effectiveness of aoe heroes in your lineup Cons: Really needs to get levels (level 3/4 vacuum, level 3/4 ion shell, level 2-3 surge, +ult) to be effective cf. Windrunner (effective damage/cc at level 5+) Beastmaster (best disable in the game at level 6 and hawk at level 3+) Furion (global ganking at 3+) | ||
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Sassback
United States718 Posts
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Mataza
Germany5364 Posts
Because ion shell makes it extremely hard to hold the lane equilibrium. Good dual and tri lanes(ofc safelane) will try to hold the creepwave at the mid point (close to their tower, far away from yours) every single wave. Ion shell pushes a lot, and by pushing just a bit into their tower, the next creep wave meets in their tower, obliterating your wave so the lane gets pushed closer to your tower. In a way creep waves behave like a tennis ball on a rubber band. The harder you throw it away, the stronger it comes back to you. The other strength of DS is that he actually only needs levels. Vacuum lvl 4 has a huge area, illusion wall is So in short, he only needs levels and has a much better chance to get them in the hard lane than most other heroes. | ||
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