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[Hero] Nyx Assassin - Page 2

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HammerKick
Profile Blog Joined May 2013
France6190 Posts
July 21 2014 23:41 GMT
#21
You're right, offlane teamfighters have become so popular that the rest have fallen off, including nyx.

He can work, but there are better choices I guess. Nyx can be good.
Well, it's high noon somewhere in the world
LennX
Profile Joined October 2010
4549 Posts
January 23 2015 16:04 GMT
#22
Just wondering, is mana burn cast time instant? I'm wondering about it since I can't dodge via blinking with a blink dagger when a nyx blinks in and manaburn me first.
Mute user function on TL; http://www.liquiddota.com/blogs/491245-mute-annoying-users-in-lr-threads
YurnerotheJuggernaut
Profile Joined November 2014
Faroe Islands65 Posts
January 23 2015 16:13 GMT
#23
On January 24 2015 01:04 LennX wrote:
Just wondering, is mana burn cast time instant? I'm wondering about it since I can't dodge via blinking with a blink dagger when a nyx blinks in and manaburn me first.

Nyx' cast point is 0.4. Blink is instant. You do the math
I am the Juggernaut, Lich!
Logo
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States7542 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-01-23 16:44:11
January 23 2015 16:42 GMT
#24
On January 24 2015 01:13 YurnerotheJuggernaut wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 24 2015 01:04 LennX wrote:
Just wondering, is mana burn cast time instant? I'm wondering about it since I can't dodge via blinking with a blink dagger when a nyx blinks in and manaburn me first.

Nyx' cast point is 0.4. Blink is instant. You do the math


You have to face the direction you are going to blink though. You need to blink in the direction you are facing if you want it to be instant.

For something like nyx blinking in on you, since you have a reaction time & possibly putting your mouse in an appropriate place it's probably not going to go well if you have to turn at all. It should be possible to dodge it, especially if you can quickly blink in the direction your hero is facing, but it's not going to be a sure thing.

Also in the future: http://dota2.gamepedia.com/Cast_animation#List_of_abilities_with_no_cast_point is a good list if you're curious about spells that ignore cast point.
Logo
LennX
Profile Joined October 2010
4549 Posts
January 23 2015 16:43 GMT
#25
Math says I got slow fingers. Thanks! Where did you find that info on cast time anyway?
Mute user function on TL; http://www.liquiddota.com/blogs/491245-mute-annoying-users-in-lr-threads
Logo
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States7542 Posts
January 23 2015 16:45 GMT
#26
On January 24 2015 01:43 LennX wrote:
Math says I got slow fingers. Thanks! Where did you find that info on cast time anyway?

http://wiki.teamliquid.net/dota2/Nyx_Assassin

Each hero description has their cast point on the right under Stats/Base Stats.
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Skyro
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1823 Posts
January 23 2015 18:52 GMT
#27
Nyx's Mana Burn isn't a projectile though? Are you guys saying it is disjointable with Blink?
ahswtini
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Northern Ireland22208 Posts
January 23 2015 20:13 GMT
#28
On January 24 2015 03:52 Skyro wrote:
Nyx's Mana Burn isn't a projectile though? Are you guys saying it is disjointable with Blink?

No, they're talking about the delay between giving the order to cast, and the spell casting (not counting lag). It's the time during which the hero plays the casting animation.
"As I've said, balance isn't about strategies or counters, it's about probability and statistics." - paralleluniverse
Verrou
Profile Joined July 2013
France193 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-05-01 01:43:01
May 01 2015 01:39 GMT
#29
With the new patch I wanted to update the guide but apparently the Edit button is in hiding.

So here's the update on Nyx and maybe someone will be as kind as to edit it into the original post.

With patch 6.84 Nyx Assassin gains the ability to use spiked carapace while under Vendetta, which can be invaluable when ganking heroes that jungle with aoe spells and dots. One that comes to mind is ember spirit, since it allows nyx to stun him, then hit him, then stun him again,get a hit, take away his mana, and get another hit (if solo, if with allies, he's dead). That's neat, and it's a great change, but it's most likely not the most interesting change.

Nyx has gained an interesting Aghs upgrade: he gains the ability to burrow (like a lurker), which makes him invisible (like a lurker), allows him to cast spells on enemies while invis, with increased range, decreased cooldown on impale, and allows spiked carapace to stun in a 300 area around him even if he's not damage (unlike any kind of lurker I've ever seen).

Oh, and did I mention that he gets 40% damage reduction AND regens 1.5% of health/mana per second when he's burrowed? Note that shit. He's like a roach. And like a lurker. He's like... a Roachlurker.

The only downside to being burrowed is the inability to move, which makes it fairly dangerous to use outside of base defense (or, if you're in a pub, makes it usefull anywhere). However, you can cast tps, and use force staff on yourself while you're burrowed (as of today at least, we'll see how long it lasts). You can't blink when you're burrowed, so you can't become the new tidehunter (with a very, very small aoe).

Aghs upgrade for Nyx allows him to become an even better teamfighter, and a good base defender. Although it isn't a core item on Nyx, it's a nice luxury I'd expect everyone to build on him lategame.

As far as other items go, the Mango is a neat consumable for a hero that already has a ton of regen, and later in the game or for skirmishes can allow you to use one more spell. Buying one already gives you a total of 4hp regen at the beginning of the game, but I wouldn't recommand buying more as an early consumable, since it is so expansive, and you still need your stout shield, which, by the way, has been a little nerfed.

Other interesting items:

Lotus Orb: fine, but Nyx doesn't get anything more than anyone else. The armor and mana regen are good, and the active is extremely interesting, but it's nothing more than on other heroes.

Glimmer Cape is not needed, you already have your own invis skill. Maybe for other supports? (As of note, if you burrow while glimmered, you don't get revealed while burrowing, so there's that).

If noone else on your team has made a mech, you can go for Guardian Greeves, but that shouldn't occur too often.

Moonshard/Silver Edge: No, you're not a carry, and you have an invis. Maybe Moonshard if the game goes 120+ and you're too rich to live.

Solar Crest: very interesting item that I would recommend to try, has offensive and defensive abilities, allows for a support Nyx with Medallion of Courage with late/midgame options. Has to be tested though.

Octarine Core: No. Spell lifesteal is not for you, and you don't suffer from your spells cooldowns. And it's too expansive.

Other than that, the only "notable" upgrades are the better necro 1, which makes it a little more interesting to get; the cost decrease on ghost scepter and Eaglesong which make ethereal blade cheaper, force staff allows for more regen, mana boots don't cost mana and are a little cheaper... all around, upgrades for the little killer bug.

I'd say that there is a chance for Nyx to be played a little more now, although since wards now stack together, supports are more likely to have observers with them... which isn't even a problem after he gets blink.
Black^ / n0tail / Misery / Lanm - Nyx/Windrunner/Slardar
Mecha King Ghidorah
Profile Joined April 2014
United States595 Posts
May 01 2015 02:52 GMT
#30
After E-Blade Dagon 5 on pub stomp Nyx i have started to go bloodstone on him as oftentimes we are pushing into base and with the old Dagon 5 mana cost nerv of 6.83 you use mana up quick with your lowish cooldowns. Also you can deny the enemy team all the good tehy would get from ending your killing spree and Nyx always could use the HP.
☭☭☭☭☭☭☭☭☭
l3loodraven
Profile Joined July 2013
2753 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-05-01 08:14:31
May 01 2015 08:11 GMT
#31
please do not ever build bloodstone on this hero.

blink/forcestaff/euls, dagon, eth blade, and now aghs. two out of those three utility items should be enough, then you get the rest. sheep/orchid situationally if you are rich.

dagon rush is fine if you get a good start, but against smart opponents you will need dagger asap to get much done.

"fear.dankness cuts deeper than swords"
Verrou
Profile Joined July 2013
France193 Posts
May 01 2015 13:59 GMT
#32
On May 01 2015 17:11 l3loodraven wrote:
please do not ever build bloodstone on this hero.

blink/forcestaff/euls, dagon, eth blade, and now aghs. two out of those three utility items should be enough, then you get the rest. sheep/orchid situationally if you are rich.

dagon rush is fine if you get a good start, but against smart opponents you will need dagger asap to get much done.



Couldn't have told it better
Black^ / n0tail / Misery / Lanm - Nyx/Windrunner/Slardar
hariooo
Profile Joined October 2013
Canada2830 Posts
May 04 2015 06:25 GMT
#33
oct core is pretty good as a luxury. the cd reduction is pretty sick and the regen is obviously great with the extra mana pool. 33% more spells is a big deal for all of his skills, barring ulti. 3 second mana burn and 10 second stuns that do around 2.5s each is a lot of control late game, plus it helps his blink euls fs cd as well.

honestly unless you're the blink sheep initiator, i like it over sheep by a lot.
babysimba
Profile Joined November 2010
10466 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-05-06 15:25:03
May 06 2015 15:19 GMT
#34
aghs is pretty fun lol. It has really high skill cap imo. The simplest way to utilise it is for initiation where you blink stun, immediately burrow and cast carapace for full 5s AOE stun.
Verrou
Profile Joined July 2013
France193 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-05-06 18:52:29
May 06 2015 18:50 GMT
#35
On May 04 2015 15:25 hariooo wrote:
oct core is pretty good as a luxury. the cd reduction is pretty sick and the regen is obviously great with the extra mana pool. 33% more spells is a big deal for all of his skills, barring ulti. 3 second mana burn and 10 second stuns that do around 2.5s each is a lot of control late game, plus it helps his blink euls fs cd as well.

honestly unless you're the blink sheep initiator, i like it over sheep by a lot.


To be frank, except if you are 100% positive you can't kill the enemy carry with your team within the disable time that scythe+impale provide, i'd rather have a scythe.

Comparing octarine core vs scythe on nyx (assuming they are comparable, since scythe is a disable item and octarine is more a survivability lategame item for magic damage dealers):

Scythe of vyse gives you 10 strenght, 10 agility, 35 intelligence which convert to 190 life, ~1,4 armor, 455 mana pool.
It also gives 10 damage, 10 attack speed, 0.3 health regen, and 1.4 mana regen before the 150% mana regen bonus, which is all pretty negligible compared to the 3.5 disable it gives on a 35 cooldown (so it should always be up for fights) which mutes, slows and disarms the enemy.

Octarine core gives 25 intelligence, 450 health, 400 mana pool which added with the intel amounts to 735 mana in the end. 100% mana regen bonus, 1 mana regen.
Now, it has the added benefit of reducing all your cd's by 25%, and lifestealing from your spells for 25% from heroes and 5% for creeps, improving your survivability, which is pretty nice.

Both are very expensive items with expansive parts; Scythe of Vyse is a little cheaper but has two very expansive parts for a hero that can't farm really well, so as far as building them i'd say they're pretty equal. Their cost and the needed utility on Nyx makes them very late-game items, so we'll look at that first.

Stat-wise, Octarine core gives you the better lategame stats: health and mana pool. Mana regen can be nice in extended fights, but with 280 more mana pool I still think Octarine wins the stat comparison.However, Nyx isn't really a fighter lategame, and 200 life means pretty much half a second against any farmed carry.

As far as effect goes, let's suppose a perfect 5-man impale:
260*5 = 1300 : total damage before reduction
1300*0.75 = 975 : total damage after reduction
975*0.25= 243.75 ~244

So assuming perfect 5-man impales every 9.75 seconds you'd regen as much as if you had 25 health regen per second, which isn't really that impressive lategame, especially given Nyx's armor, and is pretty unlikely, since you have to get perfect 5-man impales.

Now, as Mana Burn goes: if you assume a very good scenario, for instance a level 25 OD with Scythe, Shiva's, Aghs, Octarine core ( Yes, you can lifesteal from arcane orb apparently, according to this reddit post, I don't know its worth so take it with a grain of salt though; fun fact, if it's true, then it lifesteals from vendetta too), Power Threads on Intel, and for some reason he went orchid instead of refresher. Since he has aghs, let's suppose him 5 active astral imprisonement buffs - for fun.

This dude has the monstrosity that is 35+30+10+25+9+25 (items in the give order) + 65 (five times astral) + 125(.2, but i don't really think that counts, from his base level 25 stats) intelligence, which is 324 intelligence (that alones gives him 12.96 mana regen, which is in itself pretty funny).

Now let's say you can focus all your mana burn perfectly on him and only on him during a fight: every three second, you'd deal 324*5=1620 damage before reduction, and 1215 damage after, every 3 second, which would regen 303(.75) health.
Which is about 100 health per second, which begins to be impressive except that even on alch we see that it's not enough.

As far as damage goes, reducing the cooldowns by 25% is an increase by 33% in the long run. However, even long fights usually don't last more than 30 seconds, so it's safe to say that most of the time it will only be relevant on mana burn, especially since mana burn takes away enemie's mana which makes them big creeps faster. However, the cd reduction isn't gonna be relevent on your other skills, except in some fringe cases.

As far as disable goes, i think that most of the time, lategame you'd rather have 6+ seconds of continuous disable (0.52 air time from impale, 2.77 stun, and 3.5 from scythe) than 3.29 disable on possibly multiple targets every 3.29, especially since we're talking about bkb territory, which makes scythe all the more important. Maybe with aghs, as it makes your impale cd become 6.75, which can become relevent?

All in all, the only case I would pick Octarine core on Nyx would be against a 3+ intel lineup and after an aghs for more disable. Even then, i'm not sure i wouldn't rather build Ethereal+Dagon before just to kill them faster, or scythe of vyse to prevent them from casting alltogether.


Final point being: yes, Octarine has its uses on Nyx, like Butterfly has its uses on Nyx, but these items don't fit his roles or his team's needs as much as the others.
Black^ / n0tail / Misery / Lanm - Nyx/Windrunner/Slardar
Verrou
Profile Joined July 2013
France193 Posts
May 06 2015 20:35 GMT
#36
New post to add a link to a very good Nyx guide I've found:

http://www.dotafire.com/dota-2/guide/analyzing-competitive-plays-with-nyx-assassin-by-peppo-opaccio-4428#chapter1
Black^ / n0tail / Misery / Lanm - Nyx/Windrunner/Slardar
Det1
Profile Joined September 2013
Canada45 Posts
May 07 2015 00:18 GMT
#37
How about silver edge?
Disabling passives is really strong, and I think it's probably a situational lategame item now right next to scythe against heroes with innate damage reduction/evasion/crit/bash/etc.
Probably situational, but then again that's basically all lategame items.
hariooo
Profile Joined October 2013
Canada2830 Posts
May 07 2015 19:09 GMT
#38
On May 07 2015 03:50 Verrou wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 04 2015 15:25 hariooo wrote:
oct core is pretty good as a luxury. the cd reduction is pretty sick and the regen is obviously great with the extra mana pool. 33% more spells is a big deal for all of his skills, barring ulti. 3 second mana burn and 10 second stuns that do around 2.5s each is a lot of control late game, plus it helps his blink euls fs cd as well.

honestly unless you're the blink sheep initiator, i like it over sheep by a lot.


To be frank, except if you are 100% positive you can't kill the enemy carry with your team within the disable time that scythe+impale provide, i'd rather have a scythe.

Comparing octarine core vs scythe on nyx (assuming they are comparable, since scythe is a disable item and octarine is more a survivability lategame item for magic damage dealers):

Scythe of vyse gives you 10 strenght, 10 agility, 35 intelligence which convert to 190 life, ~1,4 armor, 455 mana pool.
It also gives 10 damage, 10 attack speed, 0.3 health regen, and 1.4 mana regen before the 150% mana regen bonus, which is all pretty negligible compared to the 3.5 disable it gives on a 35 cooldown (so it should always be up for fights) which mutes, slows and disarms the enemy.

Octarine core gives 25 intelligence, 450 health, 400 mana pool which added with the intel amounts to 735 mana in the end. 100% mana regen bonus, 1 mana regen.
Now, it has the added benefit of reducing all your cd's by 25%, and lifestealing from your spells for 25% from heroes and 5% for creeps, improving your survivability, which is pretty nice.

Both are very expensive items with expansive parts; Scythe of Vyse is a little cheaper but has two very expansive parts for a hero that can't farm really well, so as far as building them i'd say they're pretty equal. Their cost and the needed utility on Nyx makes them very late-game items, so we'll look at that first.

Stat-wise, Octarine core gives you the better lategame stats: health and mana pool. Mana regen can be nice in extended fights, but with 280 more mana pool I still think Octarine wins the stat comparison.However, Nyx isn't really a fighter lategame, and 200 life means pretty much half a second against any farmed carry.

As far as effect goes, let's suppose a perfect 5-man impale:
260*5 = 1300 : total damage before reduction
1300*0.75 = 975 : total damage after reduction
975*0.25= 243.75 ~244

So assuming perfect 5-man impales every 9.75 seconds you'd regen as much as if you had 25 health regen per second, which isn't really that impressive lategame, especially given Nyx's armor, and is pretty unlikely, since you have to get perfect 5-man impales.

Now, as Mana Burn goes: if you assume a very good scenario, for instance a level 25 OD with Scythe, Shiva's, Aghs, Octarine core ( Yes, you can lifesteal from arcane orb apparently, according to this reddit post, I don't know its worth so take it with a grain of salt though; fun fact, if it's true, then it lifesteals from vendetta too), Power Threads on Intel, and for some reason he went orchid instead of refresher. Since he has aghs, let's suppose him 5 active astral imprisonement buffs - for fun.

This dude has the monstrosity that is 35+30+10+25+9+25 (items in the give order) + 65 (five times astral) + 125(.2, but i don't really think that counts, from his base level 25 stats) intelligence, which is 324 intelligence (that alones gives him 12.96 mana regen, which is in itself pretty funny).

Now let's say you can focus all your mana burn perfectly on him and only on him during a fight: every three second, you'd deal 324*5=1620 damage before reduction, and 1215 damage after, every 3 second, which would regen 303(.75) health.
Which is about 100 health per second, which begins to be impressive except that even on alch we see that it's not enough.

As far as damage goes, reducing the cooldowns by 25% is an increase by 33% in the long run. However, even long fights usually don't last more than 30 seconds, so it's safe to say that most of the time it will only be relevant on mana burn, especially since mana burn takes away enemie's mana which makes them big creeps faster. However, the cd reduction isn't gonna be relevent on your other skills, except in some fringe cases.

As far as disable goes, i think that most of the time, lategame you'd rather have 6+ seconds of continuous disable (0.52 air time from impale, 2.77 stun, and 3.5 from scythe) than 3.29 disable on possibly multiple targets every 3.29, especially since we're talking about bkb territory, which makes scythe all the more important. Maybe with aghs, as it makes your impale cd become 6.75, which can become relevent?

All in all, the only case I would pick Octarine core on Nyx would be against a 3+ intel lineup and after an aghs for more disable. Even then, i'm not sure i wouldn't rather build Ethereal+Dagon before just to kill them faster, or scythe of vyse to prevent them from casting alltogether.


Final point being: yes, Octarine has its uses on Nyx, like Butterfly has its uses on Nyx, but these items don't fit his roles or his team's needs as much as the others.


Yeah this is way more analysis (meaningless at that) than necessary. Oct Core is in no way comparable in effectiveness to a Butterfly. OctCore vs Scythe is purely a matter of a teamfight/siege item vs a pickoff item. Do you need sustainable control or is the result of the fight over within a a single sheep? Because if a sheep doesn't guarantee a 100-0 on an enemy core then it's basically useless.
Verrou
Profile Joined July 2013
France193 Posts
May 09 2015 15:09 GMT
#39
To be honest the bulk of my answer was in the first sentence I said, the analysis was only because I wanted to check how effective octarine core would really be.

The only comparison I made between octcore and butterfly was that they both give nyx something useful but that I don't think he needs. I may be wrong, maybe octcore is the go-to lategame item on nyx, but I doubt it.
Black^ / n0tail / Misery / Lanm - Nyx/Windrunner/Slardar
hariooo
Profile Joined October 2013
Canada2830 Posts
May 10 2015 19:08 GMT
#40
It's more than possible you can't 100-0 an enemy core, especially now that sheep has no break mechanic. Just imagine AM/Void/Bristle/Spec/basically a lot of cores. Sustained control is more useful most of the time now.

Your analysis concluded with shit like the enemy team needs 3+ int heroes for this to be worthwhile. That's such a specific conclusion based on really flimsy and specious reasoning.

Butterfly is so irrelevant to this discussion it's absurd. Blink Sheep is the only scenario where Scythe wins out. Any other likely scenario (t3 high ground defence) and Oct Core is so obviously better I can't take you seriously when you say something like "it's as useful as butterfly".
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