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YBBUB
70 Posts
Looking purely at the heroes played: Ana's the best Fire Spirit - even Miracle- not as good as seen in TI6 vs one of OG.Ana games after TI6. G is typical mid, good on SF, seemd a matchup advantage too. 3 months to go before bringing the band back together & playing, I hope :D [Definitely agree with weakness against CIS teams ever since Frankfurt vs Vega which had Pasha No[o]ne Solo] edit: interestingly ana played for Australia in WESG Lan as pos 4...hmm | ||
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nanaoei
3358 Posts
it feels silly talking about it, but that's how i feel when people compare carry players to one another. OG revolved around giving him an extraordinary time to farm items. that may have worked before, but no so much now. OG, like highlighted by starladder panel, has not drafted normally yet. normal comes in quotations but I rather mean that there's few synergies in what they do lately, aside from the magnus stuff. meanwhile, OBG has stuff like SF mek/PA/Slardar or TB, followed into counter picks such as oracle. gambit does similarly with daxac's heroes as a difference. that is a good little formula and what makes for meta. right now, notail picks some pretty fishy stuff for himself and tries to make it work. I highlight this because I think their winrate in pro games with ench is below 30% and they pick it quite often. same with chen. when they pick bane they either chain feed with it and end up losing, or they destroy lanes and win. there are not an amazing number of heroes that are great vs bane in lane, but the current ones in fashion -are- pretty good. they pick furion, they win. so that much is an obvious ban vs OG even so much as the hero has been nerfed. ILTW feeds more on average because he needs to farm, but he cannot. what happens when his team plays without him, but slower than the other team? usually it means that his hero must have the toolkit to make up that difference. even if ember can farm alone, it's pointless if he must get 2 items just to stay defensive and is still in danger of getting caught before said items are used. and so OG draws this thin line between playing how they would like, and getting destroyed by better (currently) teams. they must play offensive, and then scale faster regardless of the result of earlier engagements. they are picking to win lanes with some good opportunities to play their heroes, but none so much as the other top teams. which is a shame because I feel they can play almost anything to a good level and understanding. | ||
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YBBUB
70 Posts
Don't think your bolded part about N0tail picking "fishy" stuff is right - he excels at micro heroes, chen/enc being two of them. But you do state some interesting stuff - you know NP is powerful for them [3rd game even had a shadow demon  ] The surest way of nerfing TI8 OG is nerf micro heroes.Anyway I see VG 2-0'd OBG & first stage banned SF both games! I also don't think traditional mids play Pugna as well as Topson - OG's strength is being weird & playing non-traditional - someone said somewhere OG picks Troll & win. | ||
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Sapaio
Denmark2037 Posts
On March 10 2019 15:01 nanaoei wrote: i don't think you can compare ana to most other pos.1, however, his role on his team was comparable to miracle's. it feels silly talking about it, but that's how i feel when people compare carry players to one another. OG revolved around giving him an extraordinary time to farm items. that may have worked before, but no so much now. OG, like highlighted by starladder panel, has not drafted normally yet. normal comes in quotations but I rather mean that there's few synergies in what they do lately, aside from the magnus stuff. meanwhile, OBG has stuff like SF mek/PA/Slardar or TB, followed into counter picks such as oracle. gambit does similarly with daxac's heroes as a difference. that is a good little formula and what makes for meta. right now, notail picks some pretty fishy stuff for himself and tries to make it work. I highlight this because I think their winrate in pro games with ench is below 30% and they pick it quite often. same with chen. when they pick bane they either chain feed with it and end up losing, or they destroy lanes and win. there are not an amazing number of heroes that are great vs bane in lane, but the current ones in fashion -are- pretty good. they pick furion, they win. so that much is an obvious ban vs OG even so much as the hero has been nerfed. ILTW feeds more on average because he needs to farm, but he cannot. what happens when his team plays without him, but slower than the other team? usually it means that his hero must have the toolkit to make up that difference. even if ember can farm alone, it's pointless if he must get 2 items just to stay defensive and is still in danger of getting caught before said items are used. and so OG draws this thin line between playing how they would like, and getting destroyed by better (currently) teams. they must play offensive, and then scale faster regardless of the result of earlier engagements. they are picking to win lanes with some good opportunities to play their heroes, but none so much as the other top teams. which is a shame because I feel they can play almost anything to a good level and understanding. To point B) N0tail has played in top 5 of most heroes used i think second after Kourky but not sure. But still seems limited in his selection, if one person should quickly adept to new meta heroes it should be him. I feel that all OG draft are wanky and off meta and we don't really care attitude. For me its hard to judge if its just because they dont really give a shit now or they are not good. I am really impressed by some of there mid and late game, so think they have potential. I have a feeling that they are trying to do like last TI only worse and win again, think it could happen but not something i am confident about. | ||
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nanaoei
3358 Posts
On March 10 2019 22:18 YBBUB wrote: I mentioned ana because I didn't think Ember is Topson or iLTW hero... but hey always need to try new things - can't play same was as TI8 because game patches nerf the champs & teams also prepare against you. Don't think your bolded part about N0tail picking "fishy" stuff is right - he excels at micro heroes, chen/enc being two of them. But you do state some interesting stuff - you know NP is powerful for them [3rd game even had a shadow demon ] The surest way of nerfing TI8 OG is nerf micro heroes.Anyway I see VG 2-0'd OBG & first stage banned SF both games! I also don't think traditional mids play Pugna as well as Topson - OG's strength is being weird & playing non-traditional - someone said somewhere OG picks Troll & win. I don't think I'm necessarily right either, but something is off. if fly picked him micro carries (so called illusion carries) and they win, they lose when they play something that is not that style of play. if they have a bad matchup or notail is part of a tri-lane (a situation in which on original OG they barely if ever won), then they make it work by notail playing behind and creating space for the true carry. hardly ideal, but necessary. at this point if they could make support visage work, they would damn sure do it. but overall if there is a dependency on playing counter-pick supports or micro heroes, that is no longer a strength in my eyes, that is a type of weakness. either the heroes or playstyle are strong enough that they warrant a ban (a net positive outcome for OG), or is alternatively weak and they don't have good heroes for him to play. or they could just play regular supports well and not have that redundancy check. part of it is hard-headedness hanging onto these style of heroes. fly was in the same situation where when his heroes were meta (lich, dazzle) they would get banned anyway and they would noticeably go into some weird pick phases specific to them. sometimes they would pick an alternative like phoenix, oracle and live or die during the laning to that pick alone. it forced them into particular heroes middle or safelane who could do without the help of a regular support (that could do something unlike phx) and end up counterpicked there because of the limited remaining pool. when your support is getting less out of the lane (and yet must get something), everyone else ends up getting less or gets put in danger, ie. 3 heroes move middle vs sumail at night. he either predicts it, or he dies and fly ends up taking the lane for xp. that is a net negative in almost all cases I would say. still there are workarounds for fly and notail respectively, and they evidently work. fly in particular picks more regularly than before. simply put, losing lane and tower or the high risk of it is just bad. if we move back to notail, I think it's pretty obvious by now that picks like ench are simply not that good. even as a counter pick to chen, you can opt to play creep-less early game and negate half of that strength. and you know what? they know it better than anybody. my problem is that they do it anyway. it ends up complicating things for themselves (which is not inherently bad), but in a way that is hard to predict even for them. it's with that willingness to pick "fishy" that makes OG what they are right now. you know at any point that they're willing to bring out the quas wex invoker again, and they'll try to build around it. spectre, strong as the hero can be, they'll eventually do it. the name of the game is ending it before 30minutes, reliably. if there is a strong cleave candidate (perhaps troll these days), magnus. dual lane potential, tusk. weak opposing picks but with teamfight, rubick. they have these signature-like picks, but I don't believe in the long term that playing like this is beneficial. players will get good enough that they'll avoid the largest pitfalls and play around the weaknesses of the heroes using the map. remove the fallback potential as in the obvious case of magnus, and play for the eventual loss to map control. OG is forced to 5-man for towers? 2/3 heroes farm and converge for the 2nd tower contest. teams will get better and better at that, while the pushing/5-man maneuver can only be so good. it is innately inefficient time management. OG has lategame and insurmountable teamfight heroes? pick to screw over said heroes before their items allow them. better yet, just ban them. iltw or bottomson choking? let him have his hero and play for the 4 other heroes. I think the prime examples of adaptable playing is either liquid or VP. and we'll get to see them play this dreamleague. OG will not be there to play, so this is the time to take some hard and fast notes. | ||
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YBBUB
70 Posts
yep, playing 'signature-like picks' a lot is not beneficial in long term, hence why I'm happy for them to lose playing different styles to get better in this 'early' season. I thought they did that initially but last couple of months have just decided to play better by using the heroes they like (like n0tail micro heroes) - which other teams can kinda prepare for. I'd like them to save their 'good' picks for TI. I don't think the motivation is there until TI. I also had same thoughts about Fly last year as well (haven't seen EG this year so can't tell if changed). | ||
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Julmust
Sweden4867 Posts
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Qualitaetsgarant
124 Posts
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YBBUB
70 Posts
I don't know why their announcement said "DPC season puts a team on a timer" when it's obvious to everyone there's no need to direct qualify to get 1st & 3rd in TI and I feel playing playing more qualifier games really helps instead of just scrims. THIS IS WAY TOO EARLY FOR THIS TEAM! (& Icefrog can still nerf the good teams' strats) | ||
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Julmust
Sweden4867 Posts
Also, not blindly defending OG but remember the iLTW was never a full member. It was on a try-out basis. He knew getting dropped, on short notice, was an option. | ||
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YBBUB
70 Posts
btw I'm convinced OG's loss agst a huskar in EU quali game is what made LGD pick huskar in TI8 GF game 1 which made them lose. Like OG won agst an Axe & lost to an Axe in TI groups stage & that experience helped them for GF game 4. = experience losing & then learning from it matters hope ppasarel back too (eventually) | ||
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Minishield
Italy145 Posts
Guess who s back? | ||
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YBBUB
70 Posts
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nanaoei
3358 Posts
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Minishield
Italy145 Posts
On March 26 2019 08:34 nanaoei wrote: yeah, the OGA qualis start in about a week and it seems like a good stretch of tournaments, and frankly, probably the only thing they can attend for the next month. I don't get it, we are assuming the will not qualify for Disney Major? I mean it's fdair to assume that is just to understand. They will participate in Major qualis right? | ||
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Dison92
Denmark142 Posts
That aside, they seemed waaayy more comfortable and in general better with Ana back. Looks like they still have to work out a few kinks, mostly because of rust I guess. But seems very positive! | ||
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YBBUB
70 Posts
 ...and frankly, probably the only thing they can attend for the next month. talk about jinx nanaoeiI can see parallels in Paris Disney EU quals with early TI8 group stages, losing 2-0 to Secret (like EG in TI8 group) & very competitive loss to Liquid. That Liquid-OG series was great to watch. In game 1, Liquid did an 'OG' on them with dire being top & mid lanes of raxes down. In g2, OG's team decision making at the end was still astounding [PA win vs Ursa/TB???]. g3 was won by vac impale combo on multiple heroes. The worst-case scenario of Liquid going down to TI9 EU quals to knock out OG before they reach full power is less likely now. | ||
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nanaoei
3358 Posts
a qualification is a qualification :joy: i don't know what i was saying before, probably stating the obvious because they didn't try for ESL mumbai and OGA the only other tournament in april. | ||
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crocshark
139 Posts
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YBBUB
70 Posts
...i don't know what i was saying before, probably stating the obvious because they didn't try for ESL mumbai and OGA the only other tournament in april. lmao, you're exactly right: OGA is the only significant event they could attend "next month" which is April becoz Major is in May!Holy shit! Ana really does make a difference in OG... sadly with the state of NiP/Alliance/TFT, it's very likely previous OG with standin.iLTW would have qualified anyway...however, the 4 other players are probably more motivated now with ana back tho, it's like a new team again. | ||
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