EPT
Why do you think I'm being defensive...
Oh well I guess it could come off as defensive.
CDEC Gaming Discussion - Page 4
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TheEmulator
28100 Posts
Why do you think I'm being defensive... Oh well I guess it could come off as defensive. | ||
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Faruko
Chile34173 Posts
It was a damn awesome run ! I never thought we see the day a wildcard team would not only be on the finals but some people actually put them as winners against EG, thats crazy ! I mean EG winning wanst that surprising, it was in the poasibiities (and i actually thought that if it wasnt Secret it was going to be EG) | ||
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haduken
Australia8267 Posts
waste a ban on techies and can't play lesh. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
Sumail has a "limited" hero pool also, he's just monstrously good at every hero he can play. CDEC would get their "good" heroes and still be losing every lane. | ||
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spudde123
4814 Posts
3rd game was also winnable for them, but they had two extremely poor fights towards the end. The game ending fight was just EG catching CDEC in a very awkward position and chasing them down, but the fight before that (which caused both Slark and Lesh to be forced into buyouts) got ruined because CDEC didn't simply click on Sumail and check that he had a linkens. Slark went on Sumail and blew abyssal on the linkens. | ||
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toemn
Germany915 Posts
The hero isn't that strong without Tusk and Aui plays the hero like a Broodmother. Techies can push the tier 1 and tier 2 but will never be able to push highground (unlike Brood) on its own so they could have just ignored the Techies and focused on the other lanes. I don't know but the Techies without the Tusk is not first ban worthy. You wouldn't first ban a Brood. But obviously it is understandable that they want to play a standard game in the grand finals. | ||
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
here's how i see these 2 games. Game 1 was out manuver from EG. EG anticipated their gank timings so well and hid fear behind the tower waiting for CDEC to pounce, that's it. I don't thnik they know fear was there at all, at least they certainly did not expect him to be there, abandoning the top lane farms. When you see something but didn't expect it, it's not the same reaction as expecting it. Game 3 was a combination of things. 1) did not prioritize rosh. They lost 2 fights because EG had aegis and they didn't have it 2) EG played really well to counter cdec's strategy of double blink (slark / lion) into sumail explosion under lion ult and slark abbysal. Sumail went extra tanky with the skadi, that item single handedly saved him 3 times from that initiation. I've seen the same match up before, slark vs ember. I believe it was VG vs some other team where black would blink in and in 4 hits explode the ember. That did not happen with the EG game. Sumail itemized really well even before the linken purchase. u know what, I'll look at that game again because i have a very very strong suspicion that EG also itemized to have strong armour spells as ember has low armour... brb lemme check. Yepe, ppd builds vlad (+5 armor) and Aui builds greaves (+17 on active), so overall sumail had +22 armour to work with in a pinch. With regard the pick / bans... CDEC said so themselves in interviews they like a strong fighting lineup, and for that you need to ban techies, which restrict early movements, and ban naga, which can reset a fight. What they could've done is ban those on 2nd phase instead of 1st, I do think they can be countered if you force ppd to first pick techie or naga. | ||
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spudde123
4814 Posts
On August 09 2015 22:19 evanthebouncy! wrote: Game 1 was out manuver from EG. EG anticipated their gank timings so well and hid fear behind the tower waiting for CDEC to pounce, that's it. I don't thnik they know fear was there at all, at least they certainly did not expect him to be there, abandoning the top lane farms. When you see something but didn't expect it, it's not the same reaction as expecting it. Fear being there wasn't a sudden surprise at all. 1st time they were somehow very slow to react to Fear coming in (he was visible for several seconds), and started to run after EG instead of just backing out. When they got caught in the middle of calldown it was too late to retreat. 2nd time Fear somewhat surprised them from the Dire jungle high ground, but CDEC were far away enough that they could have just run away. Instead they hit a Lesh stun and started to go in thinking that they could turn and tanked calldown, CM nova and Storm damage. Though now that I'm looking at it, it seems that they maybe didn't realize the EG supports were also there, but even in that case their reaction to the CM showing was quite slow. But this 2nd time they got caught was definitely more excusable, it was a pretty sudden situation with pretty limited margin for error. 1st time though I really don't understand what they were doing. | ||
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
i think they were somewhat running a script. start fight both core come in enemy panic (wtf both core are here this is unheard of shouldn't agresif be farming) enemy lose What eg did here is they simply read the script, and matched it with the stronger gyro core. It's a lot like playing chess where you have a piece in danger and you protect it with other pieces, and both players pile up many pieces upon one location and start trading 1 by 1. What CDEC was doing (in their script) is they'll match agressif at the end of the trade, last, as nobody suspect agressif to abandon the safelane farm and win in that exchange. EG simply matched the last piece of agressif with the last piece of fear. If you look at the clip above, fear started to TP in before EG saw agressif, so this TP is premeditated to the max, they knew agressif was coming to that juicy fight and simply matched it with fear's gyro. so i guess what i am trying to say is, where you see slowness of cdec's read on the situation, I explain with them running a pre-defined script, and eg set things up so the script will crash if they stick to it. CDEC was simply following a procedure and reacting/adapting on the fly is definitely possible to an extent, but fear showing up was outside of their calculations. | ||
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spudde123
4814 Posts
Fear tping in stops CDEC's chances to chase for further kills, and CDEC should realize this. If they try to chase they have to walk down a ramp straight into Gyro's aoe damage. But yet CDEC move forward, tank the calldown and lose both PL and Lesh. Fear tping in seemed like the right call because without that CDEC would have been able to chase, so in that way you are right that EG matched what CDEC wanted to do with the PL tp. But this doesn't mean that EG actually outmaneuvered CDEC with that, it should have been a pure defensive measure to prevent further casualties. | ||
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DucK-
Singapore11447 Posts
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bluzi
4703 Posts
On August 09 2015 23:48 DucK- wrote: Basically they showed their inexperience and crumbled to the occasion and pressure. I agree, but i also very interesting to see what this team can do with the confidence boost and the $ that should make them more relaxed in the upcoming future , they have the potential to go far in the near future and also at the same breath i can't stop thinking they are a one hit wonder and will go back to tier 1.5..... i most def going to watch them closely whenever they play , fun to watch style and great individual skills. EG outclassed them in decision making , which won them the close games. | ||
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spudde123
4814 Posts
Basically I'm wondering whether it is likely that this CDEC team will stay together, or can their players just get bought out to different teams. If the salaries are not that significant and the vast majority of their income comes from prize money anyway then there is not much incentive for players to look to change teams when they presumably believe in their own squad after this performance. But I would think other teams are quite interested in CDEC's players for the upcoming majors, and CDEC's owner can probably get good transfer fees. | ||
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mutantmagnet
United States3791 Posts
On August 09 2015 22:15 toemn wrote: They should have left Techies in the pool atleast in the first game. It seems like they didn't invest a moment to counter the Aui Techies and instead crippled their draft for 4 straight games. The hero isn't that strong without Tusk and Aui plays the hero like a Broodmother. EG crushed them in game 2 without Tusk. Even in game 1 they didn't lane Techies and Tusk in the manner Secret did. | ||
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lolnoty
United States7166 Posts
On August 09 2015 22:02 spudde123 wrote: Imo CDEC did some things in their play that I really didn't see from them in previous games. Imo they have excelled in their fighting, judging when to go in, when to kite a bit and disengage, when to go back in. First game they simply gave EG two free dominating fight wins mid lane. They saw Fear's Gyro there, and just ran straight into his calldown. It wasn't even a case of CDEC's "aggression" being countered by EG but just straight up misjudging a situation when they had complete information available to them. 3rd game was also winnable for them, but they had two extremely poor fights towards the end. The game ending fight was just EG catching CDEC in a very awkward position and chasing them down, but the fight before that (which caused both Slark and Lesh to be forced into buyouts) got ruined because CDEC didn't simply click on Sumail and check that he had a linkens. Slark went on Sumail and blew abyssal on the linkens. I think CDEC played how they did in upper bracket, but EG changed their rotations a LOT and decided to fight them head on in every game. CDEC more than any other team brought most or all of their team very often, even early game. EG being efficiency nuts doesn't naturally do this, and many other traditional teams are the same way. In the Grand Finals you see EG reacting to every smoke gank they thought was coming with more TP's than ever. Fear and Sumail made it a point to aggressively rotate early or TP early to fight head on with CDEC because EG saw how CDEC was winning with overwhelming force against most of their competition. game 1 - As for specific games, PPD did well to give them Leshrac. CDEC's heart is in their supports fighting often and contributing a lot. Lesh support was just a bad idea and made very mediocre use of a pick that needed to be amazing. You can't play the first pick/first ban game and just use the first pick to deny it from EG and then put it on support where it's underwhelming. Leshrac was Storm Spirit food for the rest of the game, and if Sumail didn't get him in fights, Fear's AoE made him irrelevant anyway. game 3 - Amazingly close game. Shiki isn't a very good leshrac throughout the entire game, and Slark did his job but he's actually not a late game god of a carry. He did his job in making AMAZING amounts of space for his team. EG literally surrendered wherever Slark was, which was usually their entire jungle, for 30-40 minutes of that game. Unfortunately, EG handled Leshrac early and often in fights, zoning him or just making him run and Slark will not 2v1 a Gyro/Ember that are 6 slotted. Visage pick also fell kind of flat this game with the amount of birds he fed to EG. game 4 - This was the biggest out draft of the series, so I don't think there's much to say. CDEC realized Lesh on their side was not going to do anything and still didn't want EG getting it because Sumail is a beast on it. They let Naga in hoping EG first picks it and they get Gyro, EG still takes Gyro and CDEC are not confident Naga abusers. From there they tried to salvage but went with the idea of giving Sumail a very easy lane in exchange for a way to easily kill Sumail. This was flawed thinking because yeah they could always kill sumail, but he was still getting more out of it than he was losing, and the space he made for his team to become farmgods won the game. edit: To go back to the main point though, EG changed a lot on their approach to CDEC well beyond the draft. They identified CDEC's commitment to fighting and took it head on which you can see by how much EG increased the amount their cores were rotating and ganking. Sometimes EG reads CDEC's early smokes and doesn't even need to fight, they just leave where they know CDEC is going to be and CDEC will sit 4 smokes waiting for someone to appear that never does. Fear on Gyro looked like aggressif in terms of how much he was straight up roaming after getting ult, not even farming. | ||
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spudde123
4814 Posts
It's just that to my eye there were a few times in those games where I felt CDEC had full information available, but for whatever reason didn't use it (checking Sumail's items when he is hitting the tower for a long while) or just reacted very poorly. I don't remember seeing similar things in their earlier series, which is why it jumped out. | ||
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Elurie
4716 Posts
On August 09 2015 23:48 DucK- wrote: Basically they showed their inexperience and crumbled to the occasion and pressure. Indeed. You know when they interviewed MVP (March, was it?), he was saying something about the goal post. Got to Top 12? Great! Now their next goal is Top 8. They don't think ahead of themselves on whether they will be Top 3. One step at a time. Back to CDEC. I wonder if they had expected to beat EG in the Upper bracket finals, especially in a 2-0 fashion. I don't know what their mindset is like, but I mean.... they probably went in thinking, "Even if we lose, we're guaranteed top 3". Who would have thought, right? You go into it relaxed. You ban that asshole techies and see what happens. Then suddenly you're in the Grand Fucking Finals. As the Upper Bracket Winner. People tell you you're the favorite. Oh god oh god, we would win it all. We could be TI champions. We could be the first Royal Roader. We could this, we could that. You get too far ahead of yourself, especially when you are given SO.MUCH.TIME to mull it over. You are backstage, watching LGD crumble chasing a fucking Wyvern like some 2k plebs. This is it, you are the last remaining hope. Remember their answer when asked which team (Ehome/EG) they want to face the next day? They wanted Ehome because that means their fellow Chinese team had won. That is pretty telling. You don't see ppd going "Oh we want to face Secret because that means Western teams won". Ppd wants to face Secret because they want to beat Secret. I think they definitely would have done better if LGD or VG made the Grand Finals, and it's not due to LGD/VG being inferior teams compared to EG. The pressure of being the last remaining Chinese team is too much for them. I hope they (and their organization) aren't too hard on themselves on the loss. | ||
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OmniEulogy
Canada6600 Posts
On August 09 2015 15:23 TheEmulator wrote: Why do you think I'm being defensive... Oh well I guess it could come off as defensive. if I had to cheer for the flames / oilers I'd become a defensive person too. Then again I'm in Toronto so... passive-aggressive? lol Really happy CDEC did so well  Was rooting for them in the finals but oh well, still an amazing run. | ||
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ref4
2933 Posts
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bagels21
United States4357 Posts
On August 11 2015 01:18 ref4 wrote: Agressif is probably gonna get poached by LGD or EHOME or maybe even VG seeing how agressive (har har) he plays which suits a lot of the current Chinese teams. Eh, I think Q is the most valuable player out of the bunch as a captain/drafter/support. Also LGD/VG have two of the best/most experienced carries in China while EHOME has another rising star as well. Maybe NB would be interested so that they could move Rabbit back to offlane (but NB still needs a captain more than anything) | ||
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