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On March 09 2015 21:47 Racket wrote:
Come on, it is called human interaction, in real life, when you meet someone like PPD and experience his behavior first hand, it is a common reaction to hit him hard, just to try and put some sense into him.
I don't know where in the real world you live, but it must be very violent if getting punched is a common reaction to something like that.
From my experience, a common reaction would be casually trash talking back, or laughing it off if you have a more passive personality.
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On March 10 2015 01:37 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2015 21:47 Racket wrote:
Come on, it is called human interaction, in real life, when you meet someone like PPD and experience his behavior first hand, it is a common reaction to hit him hard, just to try and put some sense into him. I don't know where in the real world you live, but it must be very violent if getting punched is a common reaction to something like that. From my experience, a common reaction would be casually trash talking back, or laughing it off if you have a more passive personality.
Its a really cool way to get arrested if you go around hitting people who tell you are are bad at Dota(or like any pick up sport)
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On March 09 2015 21:56 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2015 21:52 Spicy_Curry wrote:
I dont think you quite understand that these players are entertainers first and human beings second. That is why this works. A dark, but honest way to look at it. What PPD said was rude, but nothing that we wouldn't see before a hyped boxing match. People calling for super polite, SC2 level dota are asking for boring dota. I enjoy me a little flame.
One thing is trash-talking someone to "hype" the match, that is usually mutual, this time he was just looking down on people who may have not the same opportunities and are putting a big amount of effort trying to achieve something.
On March 10 2015 01:37 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2015 21:47 Racket wrote:
Come on, it is called human interaction, in real life, when you meet someone like PPD and experience his behavior first hand, it is a common reaction to hit him hard, just to try and put some sense into him. I don't know where in the real world you live, but it must be very violent if getting punched is a common reaction to something like that. From my experience, a common reaction would be casually trash talking back, or laughing it off if you have a more passive personality.
I am not talking about Dota there but instead real life, someone who is unknown to you and trash talk you out of nowhere just because he thinks he is better than you or something of the like.
On March 10 2015 01:49 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 01:37 Talin wrote:On March 09 2015 21:47 Racket wrote:
Come on, it is called human interaction, in real life, when you meet someone like PPD and experience his behavior first hand, it is a common reaction to hit him hard, just to try and put some sense into him. I don't know where in the real world you live, but it must be very violent if getting punched is a common reaction to something like that. From my experience, a common reaction would be casually trash talking back, or laughing it off if you have a more passive personality. Its a really cool way to get arrested if you go around hitting people who tell you are are bad at Dota(or like any pick up sport)
That is the point, you people are reducing the issue to just Dota, but it may not be just Dota. I was just widening the point of view to light some aspects that would otherwise not be taken into account.
Like for instance Pain are living in a country where possibilities are normally not the same and achieving what others achieve may be harder. Also, PPD is already someone who already went through what is needed to be a progamer so he in some way should realize that playing against EG is a big thing for Pain and his fans/viewers. His disrespect has no excuse.
The violent punch stuff as a reaction to this kind of behavior I mean it like in when you are in the street and someone just, I don't know, because you are in a bicycle and he is in a Mercedes he thinks he can just shit on you.
Once again, reducing it to just Dota, if for example he were to do that to lets say Rave in DAC, something along the lines, "you won't go anywhere, just face it and forfeit this game 'cause I wanna go to bed early", and only based on Rave's history prior to DAC. If I was one of those five players I would go to where he is and punch him in the face.
That is what I mean, if you don't agree, or think I am too violent, I don't care, I come indeed from a country where violence is an usual response to disrespect because words don't get through, normally. I was never involved in such a fight tho, I have never experienced such disrespect either.
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Context is important.
It wasn't about "you're worse than us so just forfeit".
It was "this match has been delayed by four hours and you're dragging it out even longer because you're trying to force a Brazilian server just to win one game".
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On March 10 2015 03:27 WolfintheSheep wrote:
Context is important.
It wasn't about "you're worse than us so just forfeit".
It was "this match has been delayed by four hours and you're dragging it out even longer because you're trying to force a Brazilian server just to win one game".
Context is important, no doubt about it. PPD's salt+flame+disrespect is largely known, in fact he is known for that before his is known for his draft ability, in fact most people watch his stream for the salt not for the game.
Whether Pain had an advantage on Brazil servers or EG on US servers, if it is within the rules is their right to fight for it, why would they play with 150+ ping when they can play with less than 100. Accepting it just because EG is better is the same as just not playing (mindset).
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On March 10 2015 03:27 WolfintheSheep wrote:
Context is important.
It wasn't about "you're worse than us so just forfeit".
It was "this match has been delayed by four hours and you're dragging it out even longer because you're trying to force a Brazilian server just to win one game".
"force" the Brazilian server? It is perfectly reasonable and fair for one game to be played on USE and one on BR, and the rules accomodate that possibility (as was done in other matches). EG, though, (Charlie in particular) know the clout they can throw around to bully administrators and used it to great effect.
It's funny that the only reason this situation got called out on was PPD's rude comments.
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On March 10 2015 05:27 Sbrubbles wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 03:27 WolfintheSheep wrote:
Context is important.
It wasn't about "you're worse than us so just forfeit".
It was "this match has been delayed by four hours and you're dragging it out even longer because you're trying to force a Brazilian server just to win one game". "force" the Brazilian server? It is perfectly reasonable and fair for one game to be played on USE and one on BR, and the rules accomodate that possibility (as was done in other matches). EG, though, (Charlie in particular) know the clout they can throw around to bully administrators and used it to great effect. It's funny that the only reason this situation got called out on was PPD's rude comments.
It's perfectly reasonable for that to happen, but the rules have to state that's what happens, or the admins have to make it clear right from the start and put their foot down.
Teams should not even be in a position where they're even arguing about things like servers. Or if they are, it should be between admins and teams, not between teams and teams.
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On March 10 2015 05:27 Sbrubbles wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 03:27 WolfintheSheep wrote:
Context is important.
It wasn't about "you're worse than us so just forfeit".
It was "this match has been delayed by four hours and you're dragging it out even longer because you're trying to force a Brazilian server just to win one game". "force" the Brazilian server? It is perfectly reasonable and fair for one game to be played on USE and one on BR, and the rules accomodate that possibility (as was done in other matches). EG, though, (Charlie in particular) know the clout they can throw around to bully administrators and used it to great effect. It's funny that the only reason this situation got called out on was PPD's rude comments.
If an admin is being "bullied" by a manager then he's a bad admin. The rules weren't clear, there was a case to be made by EG (total pings of each team were uneven so EG on BR was technically worse than the other way around), and its a managers job to fight for their team to get the best conditions for their team. If the admin actually believed that game 2 should have been BR servers, then he says that and sticks to it. If EG won't play game 2 on BR its a forfeit and everyone goes home.
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On March 10 2015 05:52 lolnoty wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 05:27 Sbrubbles wrote:On March 10 2015 03:27 WolfintheSheep wrote:
Context is important.
It wasn't about "you're worse than us so just forfeit".
It was "this match has been delayed by four hours and you're dragging it out even longer because you're trying to force a Brazilian server just to win one game". "force" the Brazilian server? It is perfectly reasonable and fair for one game to be played on USE and one on BR, and the rules accomodate that possibility (as was done in other matches). EG, though, (Charlie in particular) know the clout they can throw around to bully administrators and used it to great effect. It's funny that the only reason this situation got called out on was PPD's rude comments. If an admin is being "bullied" by a manager then he's a bad admin. The rules weren't clear, there was a case to be made by EG (total pings of each team were uneven so EG on BR was technically worse than the other way around), and its a managers job to fight for their team to get the best conditions for their team. If the admin actually believed that game 2 should have been BR servers, then he says that and sticks to it. If EG won't play game 2 on BR its a forfeit and everyone goes home.
Its funny; in some sports there is another thing that comes to mind when the disadvantage between sides is big enough, it is called handicap. If EG is so good and confident could just shut up and just play.
Also, it is not Pain's problem that EG has a bad ping so they should not make up for server differences by playing both games on US, that is when tournaments management has to make its appearance.
Another somewhat important thing, admins get bullied mostly because having EG in the tournament is far better for the tournament's organization that not having them, so they take care of them as spoiled little kids, because the amount of viewers would drop drastically if EG wasn't there.
That story is present in every sport where big teams push their way through because they are who they are. If an admin steps up and stops them, they are more likely to lose their job than to be backed by the organization, admins are everywhere, but there is only one EG.
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On March 10 2015 06:30 Racket wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 05:52 lolnoty wrote:On March 10 2015 05:27 Sbrubbles wrote:On March 10 2015 03:27 WolfintheSheep wrote:
Context is important.
It wasn't about "you're worse than us so just forfeit".
It was "this match has been delayed by four hours and you're dragging it out even longer because you're trying to force a Brazilian server just to win one game". "force" the Brazilian server? It is perfectly reasonable and fair for one game to be played on USE and one on BR, and the rules accomodate that possibility (as was done in other matches). EG, though, (Charlie in particular) know the clout they can throw around to bully administrators and used it to great effect. It's funny that the only reason this situation got called out on was PPD's rude comments. If an admin is being "bullied" by a manager then he's a bad admin. The rules weren't clear, there was a case to be made by EG (total pings of each team were uneven so EG on BR was technically worse than the other way around), and its a managers job to fight for their team to get the best conditions for their team. If the admin actually believed that game 2 should have been BR servers, then he says that and sticks to it. If EG won't play game 2 on BR its a forfeit and everyone goes home. Its funny; in some sports there is another thing that comes to mind when the disadvantage between sides is big enough, it is called handicap. If EG is so good and confident could just shut up and just play. Also, it is not Pain's problem that EG has a bad ping so they should not make up for server differences by playing both games on US, that is when tournaments management has to make its appearance. Another somewhat important thing, admins get bullied mostly because having EG in the tournament is far better for the tournament's organization that not having them, so they take care of them as spoiled little kids, because the amount of viewers would drop drastically if EG wasn't there. That story is present in every sport where big teams push their way through because they are who they are. If an admin steps up and stops them, they are more likely to lose their job than to be backed by the organization, admins are everywhere, but there is only one EG.
I will start off by pasting the server rule from joindota's website.
The default server location is Luxembourg for jDL Europe, US East for jDL America, and Singapore for jDL Asia. Other servers are used, if both teams agree or the administration decides on it (the latter might especially be done in division 1 to ensure maximum fairness).
1) the default server is US east. It is very reasonable and fair for EG to argue that the game should not be played on BR server. The only way for the server to be changed from the default is by admin's decision since the teams don't agree on one server. What PPD said to Pain Gaming players was irrelevant to the admin's decision.
2) you said it is not Pain's problem that EG has bad ping. With the same reasoning, it isn't EG's problem what Pain's ping is to the default server. It is fair to play both games on US east unless both teams agree (which they don't) or the admin decides not to. Charlie as EG's manager has to fight for his team. This is a given and is part of what he is paid to do. If the admin decides it is either BR server or forfeit then the decision will be forced on EG. The admin needs to state why he makes that decision be it ping differences or because that's what all other series have been doing. As far as we know, he/she said nothing.
3) it was reasonable for Pain to argue to play one game on BR server because in other series in the tournament they have been receiving this ruling. It is understandable that Pain Gaming expecting the situation to be the same in this series. It is understandable but it does not mean that the ruling has to go their way. By default, the rules are opposed to what they are arguing for. In the screenshot, there was no indication that the Pain Gaming players did not understand this (maybe one was frustrated but that is often the case when anything goes against someone).
4) your comment about EG bullying the tournament is pure speculation. There was nothing in the screenshot to suggest that was the case. If this was the case, then the tournament should adjust by improving the rules or the instructions given to the admins to make it more clear what the proper decision is in each scenario. One example is to have some guidelines to what constitutes as fair ping. The current rules put all the decision making power and responsibility on the admin. It is fine if the admin is competent but we can obviously tell from this scenario that something is lacking.
5) the comparison to saying "you are bad at something" to a complete stranger is very poor. This was a comment made about the game against a competitor who is voluntarily competing. A far more accurate comparison is two people playing checkers or basketball and one person claims that the other is bad at what they are playing. If you feel the response to that is punching the other person then so be it. The bicycle and Benz comparison is even worse.
6) the place of origin of the team or their back story is irrelevant to the situation. The same words could have been said against a US west team who maintains that they should play on game on US West. Ping difference will always be a problem with online competitions which is why LAN results are much more valuable. You may have noticed that there are rarely cross region online tournaments anymore and qualifiers are region based. NA teams have had to play on EU servers in the past when they joined a EU tournament.
If people want to complain to the organizers that PPD should not have said that to a competitor in a private lobby then that's fine but please do not purposely misinterpret what was said or add your own baseless speculation. Furthermore I would like to suggest that the person leaking the screenshot should be sanctioned and no longer be trusted by any party involved. There is a difference between private and public information.
Think for yourself.
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The thing is: why only EG don't have to play on the BR server? All other teams did, except CoL cause they have 2 EU players that would have a bazilion ping.
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On March 10 2015 11:53 caiovigg wrote:
The thing is: why only EG don't have to play on the BR server? All other teams did, except CoL cause they have 2 EU players that would have a bazilion ping.
That's a question for the admin or JD league. No one else can answer. It could have been that EG has 300+ ping on the BR server that day (or always) whereas other teams have under 200 ping.
No one knows.
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On March 10 2015 11:53 caiovigg wrote:
The thing is: why only EG don't have to play on the BR server? All other teams did, except CoL cause they have 2 EU players that would have a bazilion ping.
Because others teams don't have Charlie, who is damn good at his job, to argue for them?
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On March 10 2015 09:22 Reson wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 06:30 Racket wrote:On March 10 2015 05:52 lolnoty wrote:On March 10 2015 05:27 Sbrubbles wrote:On March 10 2015 03:27 WolfintheSheep wrote:
Context is important.
It wasn't about "you're worse than us so just forfeit".
It was "this match has been delayed by four hours and you're dragging it out even longer because you're trying to force a Brazilian server just to win one game". "force" the Brazilian server? It is perfectly reasonable and fair for one game to be played on USE and one on BR, and the rules accomodate that possibility (as was done in other matches). EG, though, (Charlie in particular) know the clout they can throw around to bully administrators and used it to great effect. It's funny that the only reason this situation got called out on was PPD's rude comments. If an admin is being "bullied" by a manager then he's a bad admin. The rules weren't clear, there was a case to be made by EG (total pings of each team were uneven so EG on BR was technically worse than the other way around), and its a managers job to fight for their team to get the best conditions for their team. If the admin actually believed that game 2 should have been BR servers, then he says that and sticks to it. If EG won't play game 2 on BR its a forfeit and everyone goes home. Its funny; in some sports there is another thing that comes to mind when the disadvantage between sides is big enough, it is called handicap. If EG is so good and confident could just shut up and just play. Also, it is not Pain's problem that EG has a bad ping so they should not make up for server differences by playing both games on US, that is when tournaments management has to make its appearance. Another somewhat important thing, admins get bullied mostly because having EG in the tournament is far better for the tournament's organization that not having them, so they take care of them as spoiled little kids, because the amount of viewers would drop drastically if EG wasn't there. That story is present in every sport where big teams push their way through because they are who they are. If an admin steps up and stops them, they are more likely to lose their job than to be backed by the organization, admins are everywhere, but there is only one EG. I will start off by pasting the server rule from joindota's website. The default server location is Luxembourg for jDL Europe, US East for jDL America, and Singapore for jDL Asia. Other servers are used, if both teams agree or the administration decides on it (the latter might especially be done in division 1 to ensure maximum fairness).
1) the default server is US east. It is very reasonable and fair for EG to argue that the game should not be played on BR server. The only way for the server to be changed from the default is by admin's decision since the teams don't agree on one server. What PPD said to Pain Gaming players was irrelevant to the admin's decision. 2) you said it is not Pain's problem that EG has bad ping. With the same reasoning, it isn't EG's problem what Pain's ping is to the default server. It is fair to play both games on US east unless both teams agree (which they don't) or the admin decides not to. Charlie as EG's manager has to fight for his team. This is a given and is part of what he is paid to do. If the admin decides it is either BR server or forfeit then the decision will be forced on EG. The admin needs to state why he makes that decision be it ping differences or because that's what all other series have been doing. As far as we know, he/she said nothing. 3) it was reasonable for Pain to argue to play one game on BR server because in other series in the tournament they have been receiving this ruling. It is understandable that Pain Gaming expecting the situation to be the same in this series. It is understandable but it does not mean that the ruling has to go their way. By default, the rules are opposed to what they are arguing for. In the screenshot, there was no indication that the Pain Gaming players did not understand this (maybe one was frustrated but that is often the case when anything goes against someone). 4) your comment about EG bullying the tournament is pure speculation. There was nothing in the screenshot to suggest that was the case. If this was the case, then the tournament should adjust by improving the rules or the instructions given to the admins to make it more clear what the proper decision is in each scenario. One example is to have some guidelines to what constitutes as fair ping. The current rules put all the decision making power and responsibility on the admin. It is fine if the admin is competent but we can obviously tell from this scenario that something is lacking. 5) the comparison to saying "you are bad at something" to a complete stranger is very poor. This was a comment made about the game against a competitor who is voluntarily competing. A far more accurate comparison is two people playing checkers or basketball and one person claims that the other is bad at what they are playing. If you feel the response to that is punching the other person then so be it. The bicycle and Benz comparison is even worse. 6) the place of origin of the team or their back story is irrelevant to the situation. The same words could have been said against a US west team who maintains that they should play on game on US West. Ping difference will always be a problem with online competitions which is why LAN results are much more valuable. You may have noticed that there are rarely cross region online tournaments anymore and qualifiers are region based. NA teams have had to play on EU servers in the past when they joined a EU tournament. If people want to complain to the organizers that PPD should not have said that to a competitor in a private lobby then that's fine but please do not purposely misinterpret what was said or add your own baseless speculation. Furthermore I would like to suggest that the person leaking the screenshot should be sanctioned and no longer be trusted by any party involved. There is a difference between private and public information. Think for yourself.
What you are doing is cutting everything what I said before and just taking into account my last post. That's what context is all about.
1) You are right, and yes, it is indeed irrelevant. That is the whole point here, what he says and how he says it, PPD disrespects people not because of entertainment but personality.
2) Sure thing. I never said/thought otherwise. What I said was referred to someone who said that is stupid to give server advantage to one team over every other team, which if seen from the other side it is also stupid to give every other team server advantage over one team. Also, if it is within the rules why would Pain's manager not fight for the best for his team? It is fair for both teams, and I never questioned that, but people expressed negatively against Pain's claims like they where out of place.
3) I agree.
4) Of course is speculation, I never said the admin was bullied, what I said is that "if" he/she were to be bullied it is usually not because he/she is a bad admin but instead because they care more about their job than getting things right. If an admin had to choose between going against EG, possibly risking EG's taking part in the next season and then his/her job, or shut up. I guess he/she would just shut up. An indirect form of bullying.
I say: EG was not perpetrating bullying or at least not in my eyes.
5) You got me all wrong, I extended the point to real life, not just used the same words in a different situation, If I were to do that, it would be not poor but just dumb. I could go dumber too, think about the Mercedes guy saying to the cyclist "you are bad at riding! look what I ride!", no man, no. I never did that, never meant it that way. You can refer yourself to my point with bosses shitting on other employees.
The comparison I made is people disrespecting people in real life out of nowhere. Because PPD disrespects people out of nowhere. Reducing the spectrum to sports, if you are playing sports with strangers and you trash talk them you will get yourself punched, you can see that in every sport played, and you don't see it as often just 'cause regulations and rules forbid it. Do you remember World Cup finals between Italy and France when Zidane headbutted Materazzi? That is disrespecting people out of nowhere and getting punched.
The thing about competitors is that you trash talk them to "hype" the match if you like but you do that publicly, not privately in a lobby where no one will see you. You can even see that all the time in LoL LCS, but I don't see, here in Dota, people hyping matches in interviews at all.
6) Origin of teams was purely used as base to judge PPD's disrespect towards fellow progamers who are going through the harsh path of becoming someone relevant and thus earning their living on a country where living is not as easy as it may be in the US. But people must first grow up to learn those kind of things, I may be too old already and giving it for granted when I should not. I want to believe PPD is old enough to realize those kind of things.
You are right about private and public information, from what I read he did it because he was tired of such things, meaning that it has happened more than once, thus nothing is really changing to make him feel like if the matter were to stay private it would be solved.
But I guess you are missing the point, this is not about the tournament at all but PPD. And this leak was his last known official disrespect.
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2) Many people claimed that Pain's complaints were out of place cause the fact that many of the other series going 1 US 1 BR was not public knowledge. This is also why this wasn't needed to be brought into a public domain.
4) Speculation is not harmless. It is extremely unfair to the EG organization that they are under scrutiny from people's (not only yourself but many others including "professionals" involved in Dota) baseless speculation. There is more evidence that the admin was incompetent than EG tried to overpower the admin. Instead of saying "Manners please," he could have provided a reasoning for whatever decision he was going to be make. If getting things right is not a goal of the tournament, the tournament isn't worth supporting. The rules can protect the admin by giving them straightforward guidelines.
5) How is this comment "out of nowhere"? There obviously was text before the screenshot. From EG's pov it is entirely possible that they were unaware that other US teams had to play 1 US 1 BR. Without that information, it is very justified that Pain's complaints are unwarranted and a waste of time. Furthermore, EG aren't in a position of power over Pain when they enter the game as opposed to a boss shitting on their employees from a position of power. Are you telling me you condone Zidane's headbutt and believe that was the correct action?
Trash talk isn't for hype and I have never claimed that. Players trash talk each other on the field of play where it is technically private. I don't consider what PPD trash talk. He was tired of the other team arguing over something he believe was predetermined (server location) and speak out his honest opinion of the opposing team. He meant what he said.
6) Bullshit. You are claiming that it is harder to make a living off progaming in Brazil compared to the US? The cost of living is much higher on average in the US. With the same salary provided by a organization, a team is much more likely able to survive in Brazil than in the US. Why do the Pain Gaming players deserved respect from PPD as a competitor? I can guarantee you PPD has put in more effort and time into Dota and previously HoN than all 5 Pain players combined. When Zephyr won KDL Season 1 do you think people gave them respect? Respect as a competitor has to be earned. The Pain players weren't disrespected as human beings only as a competitor of Dota.
From your last few posts, it is my understanding that you value violence (punching someone) above honesty (voicing what one believes to be the truth). If that is true, then that is the fundamental difference in which we view the situation. I have nothing against the Pain players and if anything I felt the way they responded to what PPD said was the correct competitor way, "we'll make it." I hope the one that leaked the screenshot was not a player. Settle it with Dota not drama.
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Holy cow, the overreaction is real boys.
I have no issue with what PPD said, I don't understand why everyone expects everyone to be so prim and proper in a competitive event.
Any real sport has some trash talking, and typically it is put up or shut up. The keyboard warriors need to step back and relax a bit.
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On March 10 2015 18:34 Reson wrote:
2) Many people claimed that Pain's complaints were out of place cause the fact that many of the other series going 1 US 1 BR was not public knowledge. This is also why this wasn't needed to be brought into a public domain.
4) Speculation is not harmless. It is extremely unfair to the EG organization that they are under scrutiny from people's (not only yourself but many others including "professionals" involved in Dota) baseless speculation. There is more evidence that the admin was incompetent than EG tried to overpower the admin. Instead of saying "Manners please," he could have provided a reasoning for whatever decision he was going to be make. If getting things right is not a goal of the tournament, the tournament isn't worth supporting. The rules can protect the admin by giving them straightforward guidelines.
5) How is this comment "out of nowhere"? There obviously was text before the screenshot. From EG's pov it is entirely possible that they were unaware that other US teams had to play 1 US 1 BR. Without that information, it is very justified that Pain's complaints are unwarranted and a waste of time. Furthermore, EG aren't in a position of power over Pain when they enter the game as opposed to a boss shitting on their employees from a position of power. Are you telling me you condone Zidane's headbutt and believe that was the correct action?
Trash talk isn't for hype and I have never claimed that. Players trash talk each other on the field of play where it is technically private. I don't consider what PPD trash talk. He was tired of the other team arguing over something he believe was predetermined (server location) and speak out his honest opinion of the opposing team. He meant what he said.
6) Bullshit. You are claiming that it is harder to make a living off progaming in Brazil compared to the US? The cost of living is much higher on average in the US. With the same salary provided by a organization, a team is much more likely able to survive in Brazil than in the US. Why do the Pain Gaming players deserved respect from PPD as a competitor? I can guarantee you PPD has put in more effort and time into Dota and previously HoN than all 5 Pain players combined. When Zephyr won KDL Season 1 do you think people gave them respect? Respect as a competitor has to be earned. The Pain players weren't disrespected as human beings only as a competitor of Dota.
From your last few posts, it is my understanding that you value violence (punching someone) above honesty (voicing what one believes to be the truth). If that is true, then that is the fundamental difference in which we view the situation. I have nothing against the Pain players and if anything I felt the way they responded to what PPD said was the correct competitor way, "we'll make it." I hope the one that leaked the screenshot was not a player. Settle it with Dota not drama.
2) Well, I think you are mixing two different things. I get the point, just let me say that one thing is a claim and another a complaint, if Pain asked for a BR game and it is within the rules then the claim is not out of place, whether EG agrees or not. Making this matter public had nothing to do with validating claims but with the feeling of being repeatedly mistreated (at least in my opinion but I may be wrong).
4) You are right. I never intended to make EG look "Evil". I just laid an example where big teams, from any sport, use to use their weight to get something they otherwise would not get. It was an example.
Regarding rules protecting the admin, theoretically speaking it should work that way, but reality shows (not in Dota specifically) that money tends to push organizations towards the most profitable decision rather than the most ethical.
5) It is not the comment what is out of nowhere but the words he used, what he expressed, his disrespect towards strangers, even if he felt justified as he said it, we have no knowledge of what was before the screenshot, he himself could have been flamed and reacted and that would change everything. Again, it is not about rules and claims but human interaction. The boss-employee is not an analogy for this case, it is an example to illustrate a situation to people backing PPD's personality like it was fine to behave like that. So I chose boss-employee interaction because it is not so rare to experience and it may be clear for many, thus changing their point of view and making a point.
I am against violence, I play moba games and I get flamed on a weekly basis, I don't insult, flame or disrespect people, my reaction is usually either try reaching an understanding or if tired just verbally troll people, like "oh yea? please tell me more!" (I never troll-play).
The Zidane example is an example where disrespecting people could lead to violence because you are DISRESPECTING strangers, you can never know how they will react. I don't believe that is the right course of action. In a LAN tournament PPD could do something alike to someone not so serene and calm leading to a fist fight. Do you think Materazzi did that only once? Of course not, one from many victims reacted like that.
Man, let me tell you that you jump on a thread and take part (as you are free to do), but you are just picking specific things trying to make your points but you fail to realize that not everything I wrote was directed at you, nor before your post neither after it. The trash talk hype was said by someone else and I used it to make a point in response to your arguments, in which you used my words like they were not bound to any other post prior to mine.
And talking about speculation, you are now in the skin of PPD knowing why he said what he said. At least all my assumptions on PPD's words are based on his history as a salty+flamer+disrespecter character of Dota.
6) Wow man, where do you live? Is that Earth too?
Not every organization pays the same salaries. Do you know why companies move their production facilities to third world countries? Because they pay LESS there.
That is why anyone can name at least five players from Barcelona from Spain and not even one from Barcelona from Ecuador, because organizations in Europe and US can pay more than those on third world countries.
In a country where standards are higher, people usually, in average, have better opportunities.
Anyway, the respect I am talking about is from person to person, not high class competitor to low class competitor. There is no base for PPD's salt+disrespect, even if he is the best in the world. One thing is being honest and another one is being mean without any kind of constructive objective.
I don't value violence above voicing one's opinion. I HAVE NEVER BEEN INVOLVED IN A FIGHT MYSELF. Even if I said I would punch PPD if I were involved in such situation, that is just the first reaction that would cross my mind, in fact, I would probably get close to him and give him a hug while saying to him "man, you are so sad, so so sad, I really feel bad for you, I hope you get better someday"
Your way of thinking is what leads to "oh my I got hurt and I don't know why!!". Do not think just for yourself but also for everyone else. It is called empathy. Put yourself on someone else's shoes before speaking like everyone feels and thinks the same.
In my world calling a strange fat guy "fat guy" before you know if that will affect him, is not being honest, even if he is fat, it is being disrespectful.
On March 10 2015 20:09 TheSmokeyy90 wrote:
Holy cow, the overreaction is real boys.
I have no issue with what PPD said, I don't understand why everyone expects everyone to be so prim and proper in a competitive event.
Any real sport has some trash talking, and typically it is put up or shut up. The keyboard warriors need to step back and relax a bit.
You see? People take this as trash talk, trash talk is public not private. Trash talk is what make viewers hype and expect the stomp from any side, to shut him up or to reassure the trash talk.
All good with you TheSmokeyy90, I just used you as an example.
"Keyboard warriors" LOL!
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You are deluded if you think trash talk is only public. Do you think we even know 1% of the crap professional athletes spew at each other? These are players who spend every second of every waking hour thinking that they are the best in the world. The egos are massive at the competitive level because you simply cannot be the best if you think that you are not the best. Keyboard warriors probably dont want to hear it but the vast majority of the people complaining have not spent very much time watching sports to make an accurate comparison between the two. Unfortunately for you, we need these players because exciting games dont make sports popular, in fact most games are dreadfully boring, the storylines make the game and we should relish this.
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On March 10 2015 21:02 Spicy_Curry wrote:
You are deluded if you think trash talk is only public. Do you think we even know 1% of the crap professional athletes spew at each other? These are players who spend every second of every waking hour thinking that they are the best in the world. The egos are massive at the competitive level because you simply cannot be the best if you think that you are not the best. Keyboard warriors probably dont want to hear it but the vast majority of the people complaining have not spent very much time watching sports to make an accurate comparison between the two. Unfortunately for you, we need these players because exciting games dont make sports popular, in fact most games are dreadfully boring, the storylines make the game and we should relish this.
People overlook this or forgot that you cannot be a competitor in a competitive scene if you don't think you are the best or have the chance to beat the best or be the best.
You can't really expect everybody to be prim and proper, humble or timid in an competitive environment. What happens is that those who are successful will sound confident while those who aren't will sound arrogant.
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On March 10 2015 21:02 Spicy_Curry wrote:
You are deluded if you think trash talk is only public. Do you think we even know 1% of the crap professional athletes spew at each other? These are players who spend every second of every waking hour thinking that they are the best in the world. The egos are massive at the competitive level because you simply cannot be the best if you think that you are not the best. Keyboard warriors probably dont want to hear it but the vast majority of the people complaining have not spent very much time watching sports to make an accurate comparison between the two. Unfortunately for you, we need these players because exciting games dont make sports popular, in fact most games are dreadfully boring, the storylines make the game and we should relish this.
I get you, my point is:
- Trash talk is public.
- Harassing/disrespecting people may be public and/or private.
While both categories are able to use the same words and expressions, one is made exclusively public for the sake of fame/rating/publicity/ego-centrism/etc, and the other is just one person being a dick to another whatever the reasons (ego-centrism for instance).
The public one is usually mutual and "accepted" or tolerated. On the other hand the private one is usually condemned because ethics and moral are in the way.
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EPT
