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There are several reasons why changing Na'Vi is hard in general.
It's hard as hell to replace Hvost, Puppey and Dendi. The only one that can really do Dendi any justice at the moment is Resolution. Silent doesn't come close to how good Hvost is when he isn't doing... Hvost things -.- And Puppey... ok you cannot replace Puppey.
That's the major problem here, you lose anyone of those 3, Na'Vi will never be the same, or be very hard to look right in front of the fans of the team. As I said, they are very comparable to their CS team. You lose anyone of the older CS team members, and their CS team will NOT look right.
It's identical to their DotA 2 team. I wouldn't rule out anything but they need to change something. It IS coming but how big will it be, we'll just have to wait and see which one of the trolling rumors is actually fact.
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Xboct is useless if he doesn't start working. Maybe I am wrong in my impression but I believe he is one of the reasons they did not practice in the last year like they should have. Who cares how "perfect he is for their playstyle" or how good he is theoretically if he is not willing to put in the work a tier-one team has to now. From that perspective he is EASY to replace with a talented young and hungry carry, of which there are many who could outperform him if they were practicing with the team all year.
Not to mention I think he is shit for team chemistry. His relationship with Dendi is meaningless if he creates negativity in the five.
[Edit] Like to add to this: the growth of competitive Dota is such that it is hard to judge how good a player is now if they have not performed at a level they did previously as the players they are performing against, at the top level, are going to be better this year than they were last, and so on, and it will be that way until the talent level stabilizes at a very high level across the board among TI-level teams. As such I don't share everyone else's enthusiasm for Xboct in Navi's future based only on past performance.
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On August 01 2014 09:05 Seraphic wrote:
There are several reasons why changing Na'Vi is hard in general.
It's hard as hell to replace Hvost, Puppey and Dendi. The only one that can really do Dendi any justice at the moment is Resolution. Silent doesn't come close to how good Hvost is when he isn't doing... Hvost things -.- And Puppey... ok you cannot replace Puppey.
That's the major problem here, you lose anyone of those 3, Na'Vi will never be the same, or be very hard to look right in front of the fans of the team. As I said, they are very comparable to their CS team. You lose anyone of the older CS team members, and their CS team will NOT look right.
It's identical to their DotA 2 team. I wouldn't rule out anything but they need to change something. It IS coming but how big will it be, we'll just have to wait and see which one of the trolling rumors is actually fact.
I love me some Xbox but Silent is easily as good as he is. Dendi is a shadow of his former self. Na'vi's best player for the past several months has been Funnik (and, at times, Kuroky). The only reason you can't really break up the team is that we all know that Na'vi together is > Na'vi apart.
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On August 01 2014 09:05 Seraphic wrote:
There are several reasons why changing Na'Vi is hard in general.
It's hard as hell to replace Hvost, Puppey and Dendi. The only one that can really do Dendi any justice at the moment is Resolution. Silent doesn't come close to how good Hvost is when he isn't doing... Hvost things -.- And Puppey... ok you cannot replace Puppey.
That's the major problem here, you lose anyone of those 3, Na'Vi will never be the same, or be very hard to look right in front of the fans of the team. As I said, they are very comparable to their CS team. You lose anyone of the older CS team members, and their CS team will NOT look right.
It's identical to their DotA 2 team. I wouldn't rule out anything but they need to change something. It IS coming but how big will it be, we'll just have to wait and see which one of the trolling rumors is actually fact.
Oh please Na'Vi CS team got back to their former glory without their star player that the team was build with.
They can do the same without any of those 5players just because some one is good/was-good and their branded as the face of the team does not mean the team wont let them go on just like that.
This before anything is a business and we all know winning brings the most of anything and what is worth a 5star player not doing hes job eh? How long do you think they can ride on old hype?
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Dendi is a shadow of his former self.
I've never heard a cogent argument for this.
[Edit] To above post, uh, yeah do you know how teams work as a business? Not sure you do.
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To be honest, if Dendi leaves NaVi it would be hard for me to root for NaVi anymore. I would follow Dendi to whichever team he joins. From his interviews, it shows that he still is competitive and is working hard to improve.
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On August 01 2014 13:10 FHDH wrote:I've never heard a cogent argument for this.
There are other mid stars that shine equally as bright in non-asian scenes, maybe?
I can't picture Na'Vi without Puppey. I could see Dendi going elsewhere and bringing the hype with him, but Puppey and friends is what makes Na'Vi, for me.
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On August 01 2014 13:08 drusalnik wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2014 09:05 Seraphic wrote:
There are several reasons why changing Na'Vi is hard in general.
It's hard as hell to replace Hvost, Puppey and Dendi. The only one that can really do Dendi any justice at the moment is Resolution. Silent doesn't come close to how good Hvost is when he isn't doing... Hvost things -.- And Puppey... ok you cannot replace Puppey.
That's the major problem here, you lose anyone of those 3, Na'Vi will never be the same, or be very hard to look right in front of the fans of the team. As I said, they are very comparable to their CS team. You lose anyone of the older CS team members, and their CS team will NOT look right.
It's identical to their DotA 2 team. I wouldn't rule out anything but they need to change something. It IS coming but how big will it be, we'll just have to wait and see which one of the trolling rumors is actually fact. Oh please Na'Vi CS team got back to their former glory without their star player that the team was build with. They can do the same without any of those 5players just because some one is good/was-good and their branded as the face of the team does not mean the team wont let them go on just like that. This before anything is a business and we all know winning brings the most of anything and what is worth a 5star player not doing hes job eh? How long do you think they can ride on old hype?
People so easily write off team captains in CS it's sickening. The team wasn't "built" around markeloff, although he was a huge part of it. Zeus was/is an amazing captain, Edward was/is one of the players that makes so many things happen. Starix, often AWPed when mark wasn't and tend to do amazing with it. Na'Vi's current shape in CS:GO is because mainly of seized and Guardian. markeloff is no longer the player he used to be, just look at Hellraisers and you'll know.
DotA 2 and CS has many similarities, both are "team" games. Yes, a team can have someone amazing that makes things happen, but in the end, it is still a team game. There are different ways to built a team. Either it is friends playing together, or strictly professional. Na'Vi's current line up was build around friendship, as most of them are (and maybe now were is the right word) friends. That can only go so far if you just start getting sick of each other.
Business decisions? How long do you think ZeroGravity will put up with a team not doing well? He is very well known to be forgiving and allows his teams to take time to figure things out. But even ZG has a timer, and Na'Vi's current DotA 2 line-up is ticking (from the interview). It's only time now that something will happen. He will 100% stick by his players and especially Puppey's captainship. However, if Puppey chooses to leave then...? Na'Vi's old hype has been long dead, several months, way before TI4. Don't blame this on them not doing their job, things happen within the team none of us know about. Don't accuse them of not doing their jobs because they have had poor showings for several months.
I'd like to remind you too, despite their "poor" showing, they still made top 8. Something Alliance didn't even do fyi.
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We all know getting to top 8 in TI is doing badly, we all know it here
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It's doing badly if your ambition is to be the best. It's certainly bad for a team that have won the championship and been in the finals three times. Their result was really disappointing, but their performance was even more disappointing
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I don't know, Hvost definitely has issues and needs to practice harder but I'm not sure if he's a lost cause. Puppey on the other hand... virtually every Na'Vi related interview and, heck, Na'Vi game in the last year or so highlights very big issues with his attitude. Pretty much looks like he is convinced his drafts and strategies are perfect and any loss Na'Vi takes is because others on the team aren't playing well enough or training hard enough. Nevermind that strategies aside, his personal skill level most definitely hasn't been keeping up with the scene's top level supports lately.
Very happy with the way Dendi, Kuro and Funnik are playing and definitely hoping they will stay under the same banner.
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On August 01 2014 20:08 wims80 wrote:
It's doing badly if your ambition is to be the best. It's certainly bad for a team that have won the championship and been in the finals three times. Their result was really disappointing, but their performance was even more disappointing
No offense but you must take into consideration other competitions with a tournament of this caliber. TI is where the best of the best come to play. Getting top 8 is a HUGE achievement, the likes of which millions of other people can only dream of. Imagine going to the Olympics to win silver. People will shit on you if you do but being the 2nd best athlete of that sport in 4 years is a title I'd take any day.
That being said, you have a point that Na'Vi has done it before. They've suffered through slumps before tho and managed to get back in top. It's up to them if they think that can put it all behind them (again) and work harder for next year.
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On August 01 2014 20:20 Salazarz wrote:
I don't know, Hvost definitely has issues and needs to practice harder but I'm not sure if he's a lost cause. Puppey on the other hand... virtually every Na'Vi related interview and, heck, Na'Vi game in the last year or so highlights very big issues with his attitude. Pretty much looks like he is convinced his drafts and strategies are perfect and any loss Na'Vi takes is because others on the team aren't playing well enough or training hard enough. Nevermind that strategies aside, his personal skill level most definitely hasn't been keeping up with the scene's top level supports lately.
Very happy with the way Dendi, Kuro and Funnik are playing and definitely hoping they will stay under the same banner.
Totally agree with you, in my terms Puppey's attitude is far from acceptable, I don't like at all the way he behaves in Interviews, on the other hand in-game performance showed he is not supporting as he did six months ago, call it whatever you like. And Xboct, aside from his best heroes, those he knows how to play with eyes closed, he is pretty much underperforming, maybe because of him or his team, I don't know.
As I stated before, if I have to choose one to leave the team, that would be Puppey, and in second place Xboct.
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If you pick shit like BM and DP for Dendi of course he won't perform at his peak. He's still the most individually skilled player on the team. Puppey's drafting is the biggest weakness right now imo. Na'Vi should be aggressive and persistent, none of these shitty ultimate-every-3-minutes heroes.
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Xboxt is the weakest link performance wise, he just sucks at the newer heroes in the Meta. Puppey drafting has also been shit and really putting them on the back foot from the start.
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On August 01 2014 20:24 EnumaAvalon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2014 20:08 wims80 wrote:
It's doing badly if your ambition is to be the best. It's certainly bad for a team that have won the championship and been in the finals three times. Their result was really disappointing, but their performance was even more disappointing No offense but you must take into consideration other competitions with a tournament of this caliber. TI is where the best of the best come to play. Getting top 8 is a HUGE achievement, the likes of which millions of other people can only dream of. Imagine going to the Olympics to win silver. People will shit on you if you do but being the 2nd best athlete of that sport in 4 years is a title I'd take any day. That being said, you have a point that Na'Vi has done it before. They've suffered through slumps before tho and managed to get back in top. It's up to them if they think that can put it all behind them (again) and work harder for next year.
Yeah people need to respect the increased level of competition. Even if Na'Vi was in top form they might not have advanced past the top 6 this year. But the performance issues were obvious: it wasn't just that others were better, the players also made many bad decisions including Puppey in drafting. I don't think any of them are unsalvageable but agree with most that Puppey and Xboct are biggest issues.
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On August 01 2014 18:35 Seraphic wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2014 13:08 drusalnik wrote:On August 01 2014 09:05 Seraphic wrote:
There are several reasons why changing Na'Vi is hard in general.
It's hard as hell to replace Hvost, Puppey and Dendi. The only one that can really do Dendi any justice at the moment is Resolution. Silent doesn't come close to how good Hvost is when he isn't doing... Hvost things -.- And Puppey... ok you cannot replace Puppey.
That's the major problem here, you lose anyone of those 3, Na'Vi will never be the same, or be very hard to look right in front of the fans of the team. As I said, they are very comparable to their CS team. You lose anyone of the older CS team members, and their CS team will NOT look right.
It's identical to their DotA 2 team. I wouldn't rule out anything but they need to change something. It IS coming but how big will it be, we'll just have to wait and see which one of the trolling rumors is actually fact. Oh please Na'Vi CS team got back to their former glory without their star player that the team was build with. They can do the same without any of those 5players just because some one is good/was-good and their branded as the face of the team does not mean the team wont let them go on just like that. This before anything is a business and we all know winning brings the most of anything and what is worth a 5star player not doing hes job eh? How long do you think they can ride on old hype? People so easily write off team captains in CS it's sickening. The team wasn't "built" around markeloff, although he was a huge part of it. Zeus was/is an amazing captain, Edward was/is one of the players that makes so many things happen. Starix, often AWPed when mark wasn't and tend to do amazing with it. Na'Vi's current shape in CS:GO is because mainly of seized and Guardian. markeloff is no longer the player he used to be, just look at Hellraisers and you'll know. DotA 2 and CS has many similarities, both are "team" games. Yes, a team can have someone amazing that makes things happen, but in the end, it is still a team game. There are different ways to built a team. Either it is friends playing together, or strictly professional. Na'Vi's current line up was build around friendship, as most of them are (and maybe now were is the right word) friends. That can only go so far if you just start getting sick of each other. Business decisions? How long do you think ZeroGravity will put up with a team not doing well? He is very well known to be forgiving and allows his teams to take time to figure things out. But even ZG has a timer, and Na'Vi's current DotA 2 line-up is ticking (from the interview). It's only time now that something will happen. He will 100% stick by his players and especially Puppey's captainship. However, if Puppey chooses to leave then...? Na'Vi's old hype has been long dead, several months, way before TI4. Don't blame this on them not doing their job, things happen within the team none of us know about. Don't accuse them of not doing their jobs because they have had poor showings for several months. I'd like to remind you too, despite their "poor" showing, they still made top 8. Something Alliance didn't even do fyi.
So you are contradicting you self so much in your post its pointless for me to reply but i'll do it anyway.
As much as i would give credit to Zeus and Edward and Starix the main star of the 1.6 team was Markeloff and you've seen it many times him single handed deciding games.
This was my point the team continued without him after he left so they will continue without puppey/dendi or who ever they decide to cut off if any one.
I followed the cs scene since it was born preaty much in the early 2001 and to this day there hasn't been a team in it that did not had a "STAR" player in it navi had markeloff NiP had Zet old SK had heaton/spawn/potti and so on many examples in the likes of f0rest and later get_right and lets be honest CS:GO is a shadow of what CS is supposed to be/used to be.
But enough about this.
Na'Vi team is build on performance back in the day there was not a single player you could look and say "this guy is the weak spot , they are a 5star team".
Today how ever their star players are shadows of their former selfs.
Dendi hasn't had a impactful game in almost a year neither has any of the team.
And i'm picking Dendi because hes the markeloff of Na'Vis dota team.
I am not accusing them for not doing their job i'm stating facts watch some of their latest iveiws before Ti and even some of the Starladder ones from early this year and you will see that they all say that they barely play together and if they do its not more then 2-5h a week.
Alex/ZG is probably the smartest team leader/manager out there side by side with Alex Garfield he will not tolerate this thing continuing on what ever hes relationship with the players might be.
And if you ask me Puppey's captaining the team is the problem and also XBOCT just been borederline autistic in some situations it feels that hes body is there but hes mind some where else....that how ever is my person opinion and i don't believe ZG or many people feel like me but as an outsider and just by looking the way they interact with each others and during game/matches its how i feel.
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Off-topic but maybe someone can explain to me why "autistic" is used as an insult, and a totally random one at that. Guy bad at game? Autistic. Guy good at game but you don't like him? Autistic. To me it's code word for "moba community needs to grow up" but maybe I'm missing something really important.
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On August 01 2014 20:24 EnumaAvalon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2014 20:08 wims80 wrote:
It's doing badly if your ambition is to be the best. It's certainly bad for a team that have won the championship and been in the finals three times. Their result was really disappointing, but their performance was even more disappointing No offense but you must take into consideration other competitions with a tournament of this caliber. TI is where the best of the best come to play. Getting top 8 is a HUGE achievement, the likes of which millions of other people can only dream of. Imagine going to the Olympics to win silver. People will shit on you if you do but being the 2nd best athlete of that sport in 4 years is a title I'd take any day. That being said, you have a point that Na'Vi has done it before. They've suffered through slumps before tho and managed to get back in top. It's up to them if they think that can put it all behind them (again) and work harder for next year.
The Navi players can get top 8 with ease, so it's not a huge achievement. It also means that over the course of the year 7 teams improved more than them.
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On August 02 2014 05:05 FHDH wrote:
Off-topic but maybe someone can explain to me why "autistic" is used as an insult, and a totally random one at that. Guy bad at game? Autistic. Guy good at game but you don't like him? Autistic. To me it's code word for "moba community needs to grow up" but maybe I'm missing something really important.
Find the meaning of autism and you'll understand why people use it as common as they do.
I explained in my post preaty much why i used it.
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EPT
